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Should Archeage have gone FvF rather than FFA?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Whats your opinion?
Should Archeage have gone with Faction vs Faction rather than FFA for controlling PvP?
Archeage seems to me, to be more of a Sandbox/TP hybrid the more I look into it. That seems like a good idea. But once again, like every other Sandbox MMO, the developers choose to have FFA PvP rather than DAoC Factions system.
for once I would like to see a Sandbox, or Hybrid(S/TP) that uses Factions instead of FFA. Especially when there are harsh DP that can easily be exploited and abused.
The feeling of Faction pride is one of the greatest feelings in a PvP game settings.
FFA usually turns into a Guild Battle, which usually run people into the bigger guilds rather than smaller mid size guilds.
Some people say that Factions are a restriction and that restrictions dont fit into the meaning of a Sandbox MMO. yes that may be true, but Archeage already has many TB restrictions in it as it is. Which IMO, is why it could be one of the most successful Sandbox MMO on the market if done right. So why not add some TP elements to the PvP as well.
Most Sandbox MMO get turned into PvP games because of the FFA/HDP. Well lets do away with that this time, and add some DAoC PvP elements to future sandbox mmo?
I know PvE focused mmo dont do well, but nether does PvP focus MMO (which is something that most Sandbox MMO turn into).
There need to be a balance of the two. and FFA just makes it nearly impossible to develop PvP elements for the long run.
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Finally someone else who gets it -
FFA PvP is a design crutch used by unimaginative developers who can't create new, innovative ideas and instead fall back on 10+ year old game mechanics.
Exactly like "theme park" MMO devs who are unimaginative enough to restrict "factions" to two-sided wars.
Political / alignment / moral systems in MMOs have always been a joke because they have always been so very heavily skewed in favor of the PK/pirate/evil characters.
Choosing to "break the rules" and go against the game's society and political power structure should be a choice that brings with it HEAVY, and I mean HEAVY consequence.
PK/pirate/evil characters in MMOs have always had things so easy, much easier then the idealist / altruistic players who don't want to be assholes - to actually have some honor and respect for their fellow player.
Hence, the bad out weigh and out number the good in EVERY single FFA PvP MMO in all of MMO gaming history.
As such, FFA PvP will always = niche fail game unless someone wises up, evolves the static 10+ year old archaic design, and is innovative enough to create a truely dynamic, properly balanced system.
Why not both?
Inside the kingdom borders you only can kill players of an enemy kindgom or evil people and outside of kingdom borders its anarchy...kill or get killed.
PvE MMOs do MUCH better than PvP MMOs, even a PvP MMO is doing well it does bcs there is a heavy PvE part that outweights the PvP but gives the PvPers and PvEers reason to interact to both sides favor.
EvE is NOT a PvP game or a PvP centered game - it is a politic/economy/business simulation in space where a small part of the people (the ones doing PvP) make a loud noise and have some impact on the game.
But afaik >80% of the players do waymore PvE than PvP.
FPS games be PvP centric - a good MMORPG is never bcs overall PvP can only be ONE of MANY activites you do ingame!
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Why does it matter? It's going to be a level/gear grind game, and the top powergamers are going to dominate. The rest will start dropping off as they see they can't keep up with them.
Once upon a time....
In my opinion your statements are utterly wrong, and EVE is the proof.
EVE's FFA has led to a deeper pvp system than any other FvF setup (even the one in DAoC). Players have build their own Factions and political system through powerblocks and mega-alliances. The depth reached inEVE's system couldn't have been achieved if players would have been stuck in one of the 4 initial empire factions.
FFA isn't a design per se. The set of rules, tools and objectives applied to the FFA are the key to make it work.
I prefer FFA PvP. Why? Merely personal preferences. Unless FvF has more than 2 factions, one faction tends to get overpopulated, thus easily defeating the opposing faction, and that is something I've always disliked. FFA PvP gives a bit more freedom to players on who, where and when they can PvP, and create their own factions.
But again, merely personal preferences.
Pretty much agree with the user above me, Greenzor, regarding FFA PvP.
Faction VS Faction is the worst pvp you can have. Why should I have to kill somebody just because they are from the other side of the tracks? The best PVP is Free For All but with a system where it is not a gank fest. I also agree with the poster talking about EVE. Lineage 2 is very much the same way. Lineage 2 and Eve are the only 2 games that I think got PVP right.
ArcheAge will have both - FFA and FvF - at the same time.
The FFA-system is necessary to make territorial warfare and ressource-control really work, which is the most important part for a player-driven economy. You can't do that with fixed factions slugging it out.
It's no problem to have a FFA-system, aslong as there's harsh consequences for criminal actions and somewhat safe areas for the players who prefer PvE over PvP.
FvF will be implemented right away in ArcheAge too tho and you'll get rewards other then ressources for killing players of the other faction. This is good for the more casual players, who can't spend several hours a day into building up their own empire.
EvE Online shows, that it does work. And it's the best system of them all actually, as you're not tied to one playstyle but free to choose what to do. Choice is allways good as it opens up the game and it doesn't get as boring that fast as games where there's no choices in this regard.
PvP itself is a design crutch, intended to substitute player conflict for actual content. The longer you can keep players banging heads with each other, the less real content the designers have to develop. PvE-focused games don't do well? You really mean that? WoW itself was always a PvE game with PvP tacked on. For that matter, Everquest was a PvE game, as the name suggests.
Factions is an artificial way to distinguish who the enemy is, usually because designers lack the drive or the imagination to break out of that box. Creating distinct races within those factions enhances the automatic distinction of friend or foe.
While I have no love for PvP because of the excessive "rebalancing" it requires and the negative impact it has on community, I can appreciate a system where no artificial barriers are installed to create an inherent conflict. Pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies was much like this and I think it made the world itself much more immersive.
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I dont think its a substitute for content at all. If done right it actually adds more depth to a game. But like I said it must be done right.
I'm so sick of faction vs faction mmo's, i'm really glad that it is FFA.
I always like how it promotes guild vs guild battles. For me personally I feel like FvF is more of a soloers dream whereas for FFA is more for group playing.
Never liked FFA PvP. I like having players on my team for no other reason than that we both wear red. I would have to agree that there should be more than 2 factions though.
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I don't understand why they just don't have all 3.
PvE areas where a player could experience all the pve the game has to offer.
Faction areas where all the mobs are faction based and the land is controlled or lost by faction fighting. Create a seperate reward system via faction coins or something like that for faction fighters. Coins would buy faction only items. Like others have said there does need to be more then on faction.
Last but not least guild area where individual guilds control areas. Again create a seperate reward system for fighting and killing in these areas.
Let your consumer choose how they want to play instead of thinking you know best.
Probably because it's an open-world sandbox and not an heavy instancing themepark.
Who said you don't have factions in FFA? You just create them on your own. Predefined factions is the worst thing possible in PvP. All these political stuff etc. wouldn't even be possible without FFA.
Some players just dont enjoy being stabbed in the back repeatedly, I would guess. Also, if you have more than 2 factions, then political negotiations can be crucial, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
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Just one of the hindrances you'll have to overcome for the best pvp ruleset.
Well that's the beauty of it. I never have to deal with it at all
To each their own.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
This, and it gaurentees them subs from the 10k FFA addicts that play everygame with FFA in its title and claim its the next coming of christ.
One big difference between faction and FFA PvP is that faction PvP lets players control which team they belong to. In FFA PvP, you have to be invited to a team. Then there's the burden of work on the leadership of a FFA PvP team. When they burn out, the team tends to suffer.
I'd be interested in seeing a kind of democratic faction system where a small core of players establish a faction, but then anyone can join it. There is no leadership, and no faction assets. Instead, there are services and infrastructure that the faction provides to its members, and the members work on building up those services. They can even cooperate on them anonymously. You log in, see that somebody has started work on bringing a new blacksmith to one of the faction towns, and decide that you're going to help out. You run a couple of the quests needed and advance that task.
Of course, to run those quests might bring you into conflict with other factions or require that you get a group together, etc.
That brings up the question of how hostilities work. They could be a full-time FFA, which the PvP lovers would certainly want. Alternately, factions declare war on one another by vote. Members of a faction can declare Everlasting Hatred of as many other factions as they like. If a majority of members hate a specific faction, a warning is issued and a short time later hostilities commence. When the vote drops below a majority, again a warning is issued and a short itme later hostilities end. Of course, if the faction being warred upon votes for Everlasting Hatred in return, hostilities might never end between the factions.
Not all votes need be created equally. Those who have contributed most to a faction's services and infrastructure would have more votes.
Members of factions at peace with one another could work together on stuff. They'd be competing for the rewards and have to work out who gets what to support their own faction, but so long as war hasn't broken out, they can work together. If war does break out, they have a warning and can prepare for conflict. After all, working together is a great way to get people hating each other...
There could also be disincentives for making a faction too large. Or for joining a very large faction. Factions could be structured such that characters that join a large faction tend to have lots of services, conveniences and security - but not much opportunity for gain. Joining a smaller faction would have fewer services, conveniences and less security - but permit much more opportunity for personal gain. So joining small factions would offer a higher risk/reward balance for players who enjoy that sort of thing. It would also make your vote for hostilities that much more significant.
It would be fun to try to work out all the kinks to make a hybrid PvP system attractive to the masses. I figure the PvP zealots will almost always want FFA PvP.
So open world sandboxes can't have seperate continents?
I think I've pretty much given up on every seeing a decent sandbox game. People complain how narrow minded and unimaginative themepark designers are but the few sandbox designers are really no different.
If you start putting restrictions on the world, you are restricting the areas players can partake in because of "x" and "y" ruleset. If you limit PvP, you are removing the FFA PvP aspect. In an Open World MMORPG, it is extremely important NOT to restrict which areas your players can visit, and instead let them go where they want.
Building a sandbox game is significantly harder than a themepark. Themeparks tends to always have the same rulesets so developers don't have to re-invent anything. Sandbox developers must develop the tools to give players freedom according to their world and create completly different rulesets based on mechanics, tools and features supported by their game . It's a constantly evolving project that requires a lot of imagination and ability to foresee the various consequences that "x" and "y" can have on both a community and it's world. CCP didn't hire an economist to monitor the market just because they felt like it, but because they have to monitor the impacts of the various rulesets or tools available.
Finally! A modern game in which I can kill off my own faction when they irritate me.
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Just not worth my time anymore.
FFA makes for the best pvp simply because of the political aspects that the clans will create amongst one another. The key to making ffa work is to ensure their is some type of consequences for being a pker. If thats not done the game will just become a gank fest. From the looks of it and knowing that Lineage Devs are helping in the build...I have a lot of faith this pvp system will be done right.
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