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WAR40K Dark Millenium - Only Two Factions Confirmed
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What else would "able to take down" mean other than able to take down?
In the tabletop marins arnt that much stronger than guardsmen, certainly not anywhere near the amount they would be in fluff, where 1 marines worth 100 guardsmen.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
According to fluff we have an issue because Guardsmen use a las-gun which is not as powerful as a bolter, wear flak armor which is no where near as durable as Marine armor, and i would not blame them ignoring playable guardsmen. COmmissars, Karskin Stormtroopers(and saddly regulaer storm troopers), sergeants, heavy weapon squads. A lot can be done while sticking to the fluff but in the name of balance guardsmen(standard trooper) should be repalced with strom trooper for that line. It would make more sense than regular troopers.
Yes i want them to stick to the fluff and GW is likely looking over their shoulder from 20 different directions; but even in fluff guardsmen can get lucky.
Well since the tabletop game reflects the fluff where else should we look to judge the relative power of troop types in the 40k universe?
Now I could compare wargear and stat lines and with a little back of the envelope maths demonstrate that Veteran Cadian shock troops have Sergeants that would barely be able to take a single marine even if they ganged up on em 3 on 1... Or I could rely on authoritative lexicanum quotes such as "Whilst Guardsmen are hardly the equals of Space Marines, fighting neither with the advantages of genetic enhancement or the most powerful personal weaponry". Or even rely upon pure fluff and remind you that the IG sergeant is a battle hardened human with the standard (substandard) issue weaponry and a flak vest while the Space marine is a 7 foot tall genetically enhanced superman armed with the very best weapons and clad in powered armor. But that would be too much like work.
It just comes down to the fluff, in other words the WH40k background, so if that is ignored in making the game what would that mean?
If this game abandons the fluff and chooses to make an individual imperial guardsmen able to take down a Marine then I for one will laugh in the developers faces, LAUGH I TELLS YA!
Edit - Now a squad of guardsmen would be a different matter
Not that we know whatt he final character classes are, but prepare to laugh. It doesnt bother me at all on the other hand, Just like the Jedi in SWG being able to die to a storm trooper didnt bother me.
A thought;
Marines should/would be able to two-shot guardsmen with alarming regularity. That's guardsmen's weaknesses really... Would it mean they'd be unloved as a unit? Doubt it. Lots of fans love the "i'm an ordinary guy getting mauled" archtype.
Also, Guardsmen can easily fit into a rather excellent role related to Heavy Weapons. Their las-guns aren't going to do diddly squat to a marine but then, it shouldn't have to. Abilities for mortar fire AOE skills etc should really help them out. Plus they really have the opportunity to fill out the support role in game mechanics through fire-support etc that while a Marine might not notice cos he's so butch in the first place, the player would notice the difference when say, they fight solo.
There's plenty of potential obviously. But on topic regarding the Two Factions. It wouldn't really work, WAR did it and we all know how that went. I can really see an IG+Marines "Order" side for sure and certainly a Traitor Guards + Chaos Marines "Disorder" side. There's scope for inclusion of Eldar and Dark Eldar but I've no idea why Orks would be happy to ally (shouldn't they be just happy to stick things regardless of who you are...) nor Nids and Necrons for most the part or Tau really...
Whatever the case I hope when they make the game they provide instanced opening levels for the first 5 levels perhaps that is exclusive to your race and natural alliance (i.e. Marines and IG can perhaps share the same zone and quest hubs but it has to reflect the standings so an IG would be really cautious of asking a Marine for help over something trivial but perhaps bossy towards another IG for example.)
The whole point of the first-five instance would be to show the build up of your own race's personal story in the game and would have early skirmishes and battles against ALL races culminating in a final event which, explains in depth the nature of the alliance that has been formed. Of course you could stretch it out to 10 levels if they want RVR/PVP whatever to start at level 10. This way they have one solid PVE Chain detailing the background/history/problems for the respective race + the nature and how-so regarding the alliances and leaves the floor free for the 'first' joint or 'first independent' skirmish type RVR/PVP that if taken with a solid PVE quest line that is not dependant too much on the amount of players being around could actually be an epic PVE-storyline wrapped around intense scenarios and independent or alliance based pvping up until end-game.
If that upsets some of the PVP centric-fans I don't apologise, I think both PVE and PVP need to be extremely tight and well written and joined together. The amount of people I can remember who joined WAR for the lore and persisted regardless of whether the lore was butchered or not only to find they couldn't fill out the excellent tomes due to Public Quests being deserted (for example) because everyone was basically hogging the skirmishes all day long was a bummer. (In fact if they are going the PVP/Realm wars routes I'd seriously consider just making one city and dumping everyone in it and just have them queue for their RvR with absolutely no PVE content at all because that's how it gets played in the end.)
Have any of the races/classes been confirmed? I seen a trailer a while back showing Chaos and Space Marines. Anything else though? I'm hoping for Necrons but I'd settle for at least getting to play an Ork (can never get enough WAAAGH!).
0118 999 881 999 119 725... 3
only 1 has been confirmed: the impirium of man. The other 2 that are obviously gleened from the videos and interviews are orks and chaos. Beyond that, we will have to wait for this years e3 or longer to get any new info. I am guessing that is where their next reveal will happen, though I sincerely hope they also let us know a little bit more about the game.
Just under 2 months to go....
tic...toc...tic...toc.
With all the respect to the different opinions on thsi topic. I back up 100% 3 FACTIONS FOR DMO.
The fluff is definitely 2ndary to the gameplay. So how can that contradiction be squared if classes are trampling all over the fluff/lore?
Basically if you take the creme-de-la-creme of the WH40K universe along with other playable characters; they may be the most popular individual classes (I want Space Marines! Eldar Warlocks! ie leaders and so forth) you are going to find that to create an "even playing-field" or at least a game with challenge, your hero could be shot down ie they have to be less omnipotent and come down to earth a bit. That does buck the lore a lot.
Instead, what I propose, if the devs can avoid being greedy, is picking lower mid-level types who may not be as glamorous but who have to earn their spurs; feels realistic to be shot by lowly troopers eg Imperial Guards file n rank and also who will need to have players forming groups or using large machines/vehicles to take on the truly monstrously powerful Spacemarines, Eldar Exarch Champ of Isha, Nurgle Messiah and so forth... .
That's my proposal.
Second proposal: 3+ factions otherwise 2 factions like war they cannot resist the creme-de-la-creme classes being cherry picked. The best classes should be rare etc/ allow the game world to grow around the ordinary soldier. That's where the game grows into. Just some thoughts, such a let-down with WAR is my reasoning for this.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
welcome to 4 months ago.
Some thoughts on what I've skimmed here:
In regards to Guardsmen:
Lore-wise Guardsmen are at times nothing more than cannon fodder, but at other times an effective combined-arms fighitng force. The Guard is both shield and sword for the Imperium of Man, but guardsmen by themselves rarely accomplish much. From videos I have seen it -appears- that Guardsmen are commanded in squads, not on an individual basis. Normal humans just don't have the durability, strength or speed to keep up with all of the alien forces they would contend with on a daily basis.
The only normal (read: non-psyker, non-mutant) humans that stand decent chances in the 40k universe are the ones that come out of the Assassin Temples. However, these are people who have cybernetic implants and are using tech that far exceeds anything that just about anyone else has. They're using Golden Age tech and are trained in mysterious techniques that may be older than even the Imperium itself.
However, a squad of Guardsmen is a decent force to be reckoned with. Lasguns aren't the best of weapons, but the Imperium wouldn't be using them if they did nothing. Lasguns can burn through ceramite, Tyranid hide and Ork flesh all the same. As far as Space Marines go, the lore (books mostly) paints them as gods striding through the battlefield and killing all that they see with impunity. The actual mechanics of the game is a far different story, however. Concentrated mass lasgun fire (aka 'dakka') kills marines about as well as Tau, Tyranid, Eldar or anyone else - all comes down to dice rolls.
I'd be very interested in seeing Tau enter the game. Being able to go around in a Crisis suit would be amazing, but we'll just have to wait and see.
It is for this reason, that I will be playing an ork! just so I can beat Space Marines 1v1 and drink their psychic fanboy rage.
as far as power balancing there are compelling ways to deal with the discrepancies. Firstly, as it has been mentioned several times, A squad style class akin to the bone dancer in DAoC would be a good choice for guardsmen. So would some sort of special forces gaurdsman or a veteran-enhanced gaurd, similar to what has been done to yarrick.
As far as the significance of power descrepancies in the game, I really dont care. I didnt care in Star Wars Galaxies that a storm trooper or animal herder could beat a jedi in 1v1 combat. It just didnt bother me even though it was agaisnt the lore. Likewise it wont bother me that Jedi's will be losing to all sorts of things in TOR (not that I will play that game.) If a game has a liscense that allows you to play a specific class, with a specific power level, according to that liscenses lore, this conversation will always happen. I know its a popular notion amognst gamers to accuse developers of "money grabs" or "devs-dont-care" but keep in mind that the guys workign on the game are fans and have taken these balance issue into consideration. Not saying that they will make the right or wrong choices and Im not saying that the outcome will please many of you (a portion of which are unpleaseable) but dont for a second think that your take on the lore hasnt been heard and discussed in dev meetings and/or IP meetings. I hope to see some creative solutions.
the marines arent godly, in fact they are far from it, they are genetically engineered men, trained for centuries before being sent into suicide missions. they have implants and training guardsmen can only dream of, but are far fewer in number accordingly. marines also specialize more into meelee then ranged, sure tacticle marines have range weapons but are so few in number they are easily rushed by large units of meelee, so they need meelee themselves else they be fodder!
only the necrons are truely godlike in 40k, the dead join their ranks, and can never truely be stopped, even by exterminatus.
Hi I'm Fusei a "long" time french stalker.
First of all sorry for my english, french language teaching system isn't the best. And I quit school a bit early.
What bring me here today is an interview of Simon Watts (who apparently is the global communication manager of the game) from MondesPersistants (which is a well known video game website for french people). I was quite surprise that I couldn't find any similar interview for english-talking people (I looked for it here, at kotaku, at gamasutra, at ign and at gamespot).
The interview is old (end of last august) but by reading this topic I found that questions asked here are answered in this interview.
Anyway here's the link : http://www.mondespersistants.com/articles/simon-watts-parle-de-warhammer-40k:875/
There's three "important" informations in this interview imo.
The first is regarding a new alien race ? : Nothing was said about it only that this race doesn't (yet) exist in the table top game. I don't know about you guys but that was the first time I heard about that. Honestly I find it a bit disturbing, there's already plenty of cool races to play. Why add another one ? To have more liberty ?
The second is regarding factions : Watts said that different races AND factions will have to "work" together to face a common ennemy. By that I understand PvE and probably against this new kickass alien race.
The third is regarding guardsmen (mostly) : When ask if a player will be able ton control multiple character, Watts answered that DMO won't be a RTS or an hybrid game. You will only be able to control one char.
For the rest of the interview I hope google translator will do the trick.
The info here are imo quite important. I don't quite understand why such info were only give to french-speaking people. As I said before MondesPersistants is well known (for french hey) and I doubt they would lie about something like that.
Well that's it if you already knew about this, I'm sorry for all the useless fuss. if not try to enjoy.
That video has video from the Space Marine game. False impression.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
THE GALAXY WILL BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BURN THE HERETIC !!!
It's just one step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
C9 impatient awaiter
Bytheway what people tend to easily ignore is if your kind of player demand to get rid off the fluff to focuse only on gameplay it's because you want specifically DMO as a sci-fi WoW-like, that's all. Accepting it or not : WoW is your pattern and you just can't play without it, this is like playing a fps : you eat the same shit over and over again like only COD knows how to cook it.
Blizzard is already working on a sci-fi ip for their new mmo as I've heard... so no need of such a thing : pointless and suicidal, WAR tried and failed already. What would make me laugh out loud would be Blizzard being inovatives and creatives for their next MMO game design : would be such a despising move to all over MMO market companies fearing to inovate just to get some WoW addicts
And remember one thing : the lore of warcraft were fitting perfectly to what they done with WoW, moreover Blizzard were also totally legitimate to do it since they were the company who have actually created the ip : thus they were totally legitimate to make some nice modifications as they wish.
Every over companies are just ripping apart any popular ip to try to make it fit with the WoW pattern whatever the cost : being huge (WAR) or reasonable (DMO). I do think this will be a fail whatsoever because none is able to steal WoW addicts except a new Blizzard MMO game.
AOC is the real expression of success in the MMO market imo : although they made a terrible launch, lied to their customers, rushed up their game to a point barely never reached before, AOC currently stands still and a second expansion is on the way. Graphisms are stunning for the MMO kind, gameplay is dynamic and inovative and the lore is very popular and have been quite well respected from top to bottom.
Companies trying to make new MMO should look deep into the AOC case which is a school case imo instead of blindly jumping into the so-called worthy WoW-like pattern, which is only worthy for Blizzard at the moment.
It's just one step from the sublime to the ridiculous.
C9 impatient awaiter
The two faction games is what people are saying makes this game like any other MMO. Why not create the first game to have as many factions as there are races and allow certain faction to form alliances....but not force them together and make a tyrinid play along side anyother race....because they dont fit in they eat everything....same with necrons...they kill everything no teams for them?
The only way GW is gonna get around this is Necrons, Dark eldar, and tyranids will be a computer controlled race only and we will fight against them.
The IP and lor of 40k has always been very strict against this type of thing and then all of the sudden GW decides to throw it out the window... Let me see a gamesday where a Chaos/Orc army wins the tourny...... sorry but it cant happen
I have to agree with you. Regular MMO fans might not really care about the lore but there are millions of Warhammer fans out there that are potential players.
A certain other game pissed all those fans off and therefor lost all those potential subs, there is no point in using an existing IP if you don't make the game for the fans of that IP.
Sure, you can just make a regular MMO that are like the rest but the market for that is tough. 40K fans will keep their eyes on this game, screwing them over is not particularly smart.
100k is actually a sound number to look for. This info is rather old, but there's not many mmo's that keeps 200k+ for a long time. http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
WoW certainly wasn't aiming for 1m+ since it was unheard of prior to that, and WH40k is in many ways a niche.
What scares me more is Only 2 factions. That's to a large degree what killed WH in the first place for me. In 40k, everyone fights everyone some of the time, and someone all of the time. That even includes interfactional war, as Marine chapter against chapter and so on. That needs to be captured in the game.
Sure, alliances and such between orks and chaos. You should be able to cooperate between factions. Just like you should be able to break alliances.
/Y
Agreed, While it is extremely unlikely for different factions to ally up, doesnt mean its unheard of. Theres been numerous occasions where 2 factions like Space marines and eldar, or tau and Space marine ally up for a cause. Once that cause has been reached... They go back to killing each other.
the way i see it for this game... its just another Eye of Terror campaign GW is doing. 2 factions pitted agaisnt each other. Order and Chaos. I dont like it, but Definitely not going to keep me from playing this game.
Kinda sad to see so many ppl who think they "know the lore".
Also... If each race was a faction... Have fun with 70% of the population picking space marines.
Currently Playing: LoL,EVE, Rift
Future Games: WH40K:DM, Tera Planetside2
Past Games Ive tried:
WoW, FE, AoC, WAR, LotRO, Tabula Rasa,GW, and Many F2P games.
It's about time somebody brought this up. There have been many occassions where there have been alliances, even if temporary.
And while I'm not particularly fond of 2 factions, myself, my friends and I often play different tabletop races. If we divided the factions up, we wouldn't be able to play with those friends who play different races and would either be forced to play a race we don't want to or be forced to go against them. I playing eldar and would love to play with my friends who play as Space Marine and Imperial Guard.
FPS games generally require the 1 vs 1 system ... it makes it convoluted to have 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 ect.. as its been said if you make every race playable and make it a FFA there will be no content and the player pop will be stretched all over the place.
one server may have 90% chaos players another mostly marine or gaurd or alien..
the 2 factions work fairly well in a FPS format, as you a have a Red vs Blue game system. while 40k fluff clearly makes that retarded to do... as a game it would work. but time will tell, there is no point harping the game saying its already dead when its not even playable to a mass group yet. if it fails its not because of 2 factions. its because the gameplay it self sucks.
but as long as the maps are like battlefield (aka HUGE) and not shit like those combat arms maps (wtf is that crap) game shouldnt be overly horrible.
but then again i would be more interested in fluff correctness instead of black legion teaming with ultra marines or something...