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CCP announces new policy, shafting all third party developers.
Codenak
Member UncommonPosts: 418
in EVE Online
CCP has announced a new policy
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=901
This garnered 9 pages of heated disgust from those who have worked tirelessly and for free to make eve a great game vefore ccp started to back pedal.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=9
The discussions continue even now...
Is CCP getting greedy?
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Comments
They are only shafting the people who are trying to profit off of a 3rd party program designed for CCP's product. If your service is free the license costs you nothing. Ideally it would mean that people getting scammed through 3rd party software sites/apps (to obtain account/CC information) would lead to that sites license getting revoked protecting the customer base... I guess they are looking to make some money off it themselves so... greedy? meh
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Wow reading comprehension for the loss. Anyone who is currently providing their tools for free can continue to do so. IF someone wants to actually make money on it they can now actually do so with CCP's blessing as long as they pay CCP an annual licensing fee of $99. This means that all of those people that have put lots of time and personal money into making eve tools can recoupe some of those costs or even make some money off of it.
Actually ccp has altered the original post, probably due to the 9 pages of disdain from those that did do the third party app development for free.
This was Chribba's response to the original wording.
Originally by: Chribba
ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
which can be seen here
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=6
Edited for clarity.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
They should have done this earlier so that I could have continued to use capsuleer. As the dev behind that software never got the permission or whatever he needed from CCP to be able to sell the software.
Now it seems all that is needed is that you accept the licensing fee and stuff and go sell software with CCP acknowledgement.
Yes I am aware of all those other crappy iPhone softwares for EVE online.I'm aware that the current commercial EVE apps stink. But still by comparison it did show that capsuleer was made with the intent of making money from it.
Now if this would make someone develop something inbetween EVEHQ and EVEmon but it would cost me $ I would most likely buy it. Or any other software that shows that the developer creates it to make money out of it and I find use of it, I can end up buying.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Greedy? lol read up
As quoted from the above link:
Feeback thread discussion
thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Jon Bjarnason
Technical Director
EVE Online, CCP Games
From what I read, it's not CCP that making money, it's the 3rd party devs who will profit from this. USD 99 per year hardly doing anything significant to CCP. CCP basically give the green light for them to charge ppl.
The trouble with licenses and legal problems is that the majority of people are way to dumb to understand it.
I'm really shocked that even Chribba is too dumb to understand it as well.
Let me try and put it in a way that makes sense;
Currently there is NO POSSIBLE WAY (except illegally) to make money from a third party application. Non at all. You cant do it.
You can make third party stuff, but you just cant charge for it.
CCP are proposing a way for anyone to create anything to do with their IP AND MAKE MONEY FROM IT!
$99 dollars is absoloutly nothing! Im properly shocked by how cheap that is. There is an app for the iphone which tens of thousands of people use, if they charged just £1.00 for this App, the makers of that would make between £20'000 and £50'000!
This doesnt shaft third party developers, its lining their pockets. I'm honestly shocked at how the community has reacted, i can think of 5 ways to personally make myself a good wage from this licence, my mind is buzzing with idea's...
Whats more is that Eve is the only MMO where I dont actually pay a penny to play it.. and havnt done for years and years. So the way the community is crying about this, honestly is unbeleivable.
Think about it.. you could now use photoshop to make an artists impression of a ship or a battle in eve, make it into a poster and charge $10 for each poster..., you could make guides, videos, models, paintings...
Honestly, truly shocked at how dumb the Eve community is right now.
im not smart and im nor great , ive never made anythin for this game and nor will i.
i am however a gamer.
and i as well have a egsample for you
man offers too cut wood for farmer.
farmer says sure
2 weeks later
farm says " o now you have to pay to cut me wood"
^ is the Low income peoples Point of view. people who dont make more on it or dont know how.
man offers too cut wood for farmer.
farmer says sure
2 weeks later
farm says " o now you have to pay to cut me wood , but you can sell it too others as well."
^ third parties who do make money
if you runa site of any kind for or not for profit , you get charged. period , this itself kills productivity. CCP is just showing power thats all its about.
the fact that endless amounts of polls nd public posts have been posted and nothing has been done.
the bottum line is that someone made money where they didn't
now they want some . making the price low was just too make it a Good news thing as said before.
i agree this iwll weed out bad devs. as i do messaround with other games
but at the same time , some people have Very good ideas and know what there doing but just are not willing to spend money in real life too make fake money on a game , or even to do it for free
it says you can't charge for REAL money only ingame money
that itself sums the whole thing.
i could be wrong , im sure nothing in there is 100%
i got banned last year for RTM , but you know whats funny? i wasn't doing RTM a game with the same name and numbers +1
I.E blahblah1000 <-me
blahblah1001<- him got banned for it a min later.
someone sent me money that i didnt ask for . i wasnt even online , there were no messages. then al the sudded i got a email saying your account has been suspended for Real money trade. i loged ina dn sure enough access denied.
guess what Eve. i was in south amarica that week . with no computer. fk youa dn ur game too.
but back to the point .
its all about money.
but hay even if i hate the game , im glad its still here. it proves that even witha game as greedy as Eve. a game that stands the test of time still exsists. and will continue too for along time. tha itself makes me a bit happyer.
$99 for a 3rd party app development isn’t all that much. As somebody as already pointed out that app development for Android and Apple are a lot higher.
“Not like I've even bought a Apple product in my life. Because I would never spend good money on rubbish like that."
Good move on CCP's part. So those developing apps for free can continue to do so with no change basically and those wanting to charge can do so if they pay a licensing fee.
So the community still has access to free apps they just now get access to pay apps as well. Developers can continue to create free apps without paying anything and those wanting to make a little profit now have a means of doing so.
So win/win for everyone all around the board and people have a problem with this?
So confused, so very confused.
What about advertising? What about donations? you can charge ISK for out of game services as well if your smart.
You could make enough money from a lot of eve tools to cover the cost. It's been done for years by hundreds of people and the current system works fine.
All the people doing this just got stuck with $99 yearly extra cost. That is nothing but a 'nerf' to current 3rd party developers.
There will however be some new content such as iPhone apps where profit was previously not possible/easy enough and some 3rd party tools may come out of here.
It seems that CCP is trying to expand there 3rd party developer audience by screwing over their current 3rd party developers and make us all pay a little extra, on top of the extra cash shop coming soon.
Into the breach meatbags
I too am shocked that Cribba doesnt get it..
As for the rest.. well they sound like the usual whiners to me. Fearing change and ranting without thinking it through.
Maybe 99$ is too much for the ability to accept donations.. Sure is if noone donates.
But I suspect the DDoS attack was because someone doesnt like CCP looking in to who made some app that contains keyloggers or whatnot..
I see the problem non profit 3rd party developers have with it... To an extent atleast.. I have no idea what sort of income they can get from donations and website adds or their own licence fees.. Or what sort of expenses they might have for equipment, data traffic, labour, and their own advertizing.
If they could show me that they were providing a service that I would sorely miss, at a loss... while still taking donations and taking money from adds, then I might be more open to their point of view.
I dont see how we all have to pay a little extra... Sure if some of the current or new 3rd party tools require the user to pay for them.. then those that use them get to pay a little more.. but those that dont, wont.
And thats assuming that the current 3rd party providers are operating at a loss.(Ofcourse thats assuming they arent greedy bastards that will use this as an excuse to make even more profit)
as long as evemon and eft are still ok, i'm good
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
This is so wrong. Untill they remove ADs and Donations out of their list, they are just being greedy.
I can't beleive some people agreeing with them! Someone should make them pay the 100/dollar per year.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
They would have to pay the 100 per year or atleast battleclinic will.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
So wait, they are saying that if a 3rd party developer is making any money off of their service/application then they have to pay $99 per year?
8.25 per month?
I"m afraid there is no problem here except in the headds of those who are complaining.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
More frpm Chribba
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=19#544
quote:
So after now having read through various replies, additional discussion with other 3rd party developers, pilots and CCP, and also gotten the chance to wind down a bit from the very sudden message on my phone while I was in the car - 'ccp really has done it now!' here's some additional thoughts.
Note that I direct this to CCP as a company, and not to CCP Atlas or any other member of the bizdev team directly.
Also, these are my personal views, I do not speak for others even though I do know that I have others thinking the same things.
Firstly, you seriously need to make a DISTINCT difference of in-game and out-of-game payment/donation/fees. I personally don't see any legitimate reason for me to like pay a license fee in order to run my in-game 3rd-party service that generate me ISK income in-game.
I see reasons to why you for example would want to license me for EVEBoard, after all I am using your API, thus taking data, displaying it on my website "kinda" as my own, but still free for every pilot to use, browse, love or hate. And oh yeah, it does have some Google Adverts that does nudge a bit of the monthly billing I have (and yes I know it's not really a reason since I'm doing this on free will). So, yeah I'd be up for discussion about things like this for sure.
Having had the honor of being with both you and the community since 2003, I have seen EVE grow, and tbh we wouldn't be nowhere where we are today if it wasn't for the tools you provided to us pilots to enable us to create such great things as EFT, EVEMon, dotlan, GTS, EveHQ, spreadsheets and so on.
And I know from my personal developments that I would never have thought about it if the first thing I needed was to pay a license fee. I've launched sites, both successful and sites no one remembers. I would not have been able to try out the failed ones nor enjoyed the success of the living ones if I you hadn't enabled me to give it a shot, fail or not.
With a license, most of any future idea will never become more than just an idea.
I love CCP, to me you are the most awesome gaming company around, you provide your customers with an amazing set of tools, features, experiences, humor and you offer yourselves to your customers like no one else - that is something special, that is what makes your customers loyal, and keep wanting to support your (at times) crazy ideas.
But, scrambling (yeah throwing in some pvp here) the part of the player base that of their own free will wish to push the game further ahead, showing just why OUR game is the best game out there - that is plain stupid.
This said, I must admit that I am still a bit confused what exactly you are looking to achieve with this, it was requested so that we could start charging for things we do for free? Yeah I see the point, but I can't recall seeing much discussion about this being a big wants from 3pd's, and I can only see a handful of direct services that would use this "option".
At least I have no intention of charging the users of my sites, and rather shut down them than forcing the users to pay me to keep it online. But by the looks I still would need a license, since of course I won't say no if someone wants to aid me a bit by donating some money to keep up with the costs of running them... and I'm not the only one.
What I really thing you need to do, is sit down and have a serious discussion with the people this will affect initially, I would like to see myself as such a person, and I'd be happy to pay for my own flight and meet up with you and others to discuss this if that is the problem.
Scrap this draft, invite people to a sane discussion and maybe just start with the topic 'so you want to charge for your <application>, what is the best way to do it?' (and yes I admit that I didn't follow this Dev Track thing, and not sure if it was a discussion or presentation, but regardless, it needs to be redone).
Sorry for the wall-o.
/c
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
It does become more of an issue if said 3rd party is still operating at a loss. Even with donations and advertizing.
Looks like they came up with the 99$ pricetag from what it would cost CCP to hire a guy to handle anything related to licenses.
They didnt come up with it for CCP to make money off the 3rd party apps but to police the developers of those. They want to know who is making them so noone will try to sneak in malicious stuff like keyloggers and trojans. Hence the free licence for apps or sites that are 100% non comercial..
Only dumb thing about it is if they insist on charging a license fee if people get donations in ingame currencies. But seems like they are backing down on that. (And I could be wrong about it being dumb)
And Cribba could still have made a lot of trial and error sites and apps.. All he had to do is to keep them non comercial while waiting to see if they got popular. Its not like he would have gotten a lot of income from something that was so unpopular and unused that he had to scrap it anyway.
I would tell him so on the official forums. But the thread is so full of whining I havent bothered with it.
The issue, for those who dont see it, is that most of these apps are independently developed, and the devs also pay for hosting out of their own pockets. That hosting aint free (Chribba spends many hundreds of dollars of his own money providing eve-search, eve-files, eveboard, etc), so they accept donations to help cover the cost of bandwidth. Pretty much none of them are making a profit here - the donations just help pay for SOME of the hosting costs. So far as I know, there are currently no 3rd party websites making an actual profit from EVE.
And now CCP want to charge them $99 a year for the privilige of supporting EVE - which is hugely reliant on these 3rd party apps. Even for those app devs that just accept ISK donations. Some of these apps are virtually indispensible and their functionality should have been integrated into EVE years ago - try being a capital pilot without a jump planner. Try FCing a roam without using Dotlan. For a long time, EVE has been carried by these 3rd party app developers, who are paying to help CCP
CCP is trying to charge these guys for doing CCP's work for them, and give nothing back. Apple provide bandwidth, a proper IDE, documentation and a global marketplace: app devs actually get quite a lot for their money. CCP are offering precisely nothing for the $99.
Unsurprisingly, the app devs are not enthusiastic. Who would be?
CCP are throwing the current app community under the bus in the hope of attracting a hypothetical commercial app community to a small market that will be extremely hostile towards people trying to make them pay what they were providing each other for free until now. The stupidity here is almost beyond words.
I'm actually not going to get too angry about this, because even by CCP's standards, this is an incredibly stupid idea, presented amazingly badly. So they're going to backpedal like crazy and "Guys when we said that thing we actually meant a totally different thing". But Jesus Christ, CCP Atlas should never be allowed to talk to a customer ever again.
On a side note, my Tengu alt trained Cybernatics 5. +5% hardwirings own.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Battleclinic?
This move is just unreal. I wish you EvE players luck, but I suggest you all vote with your feet. The very people who helped build and improve the game are the ones CCP wants to make a few extra $ off of. It blows my mind how utterly greedy this move is.
I'd like to see some confirmation of that. Their bandwidth costs must be huge.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
People dont seem to relize that if your site is free, which most are, then nothing changes, and if you've been making money illegally, you can now make it legaly for a mere $99 a YEAR. Jeez, I think most people didnt even read the CCP Post. This is a great move by CCP to legitimize 3rd part Modders.
P.S The Title of this Post is extremly misleading, and you need to read the CCP post to see whats really going on, the OP clearly didnt get his fact correct.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
CCP have backed off to "iterate" on the idea.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
So in normal other IP's have the rule that you freely can develop software around it and make money on the IP for yourself?
There have been problem for some people that actually have been trying to get the proper rights from CCP to use the EVE online IP to earn themself money, simple people like you and me that perhaps write a good tool to use the API.
For those it is now a possibilty to legit earn money on the software they produce.
For those that do not earn anything nothing will change.
For me as a player and consumer of that product will look forward to tools that develops with a different mindset, to be able to sell on a market that the competitors may release a free software.
And also (hopefully) those software that not only suck and are disgusting to use but also costs money will either disappear or improve.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"