Combat is probably the least important aspect of Online RPGs for me. I like twitch and turn-based combat equally. I disagree that twitch does not belong in MMORPGs, though I do not think any Online RPG has done twitch PvE very well at all yet. I thought Global Agenda and Fallen Earth combat was just terrible, but I love the Quake series and Fallout 3/NV. I prefer twitch skill to statistical advantage for PvP.
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I wouldn't want to see MMO's move into a completely twitch based genre I agree, but I think we can do something better than the traditional stand in place/madly circle strafe + auto attack + 123 mashing.
well i do think that best combat system for rpg is turn based one, but it doesnt work really that well in mmo
It did pretty well for Atlantica, I think it's a good alternative when done right.
I wouldn't want to see MMO's move into a completely twitch based genre I agree, but I think we can do something better than the traditional stand in place/madly circle strafe + auto attack + 123 mashing.
well i do think that best combat system for rpg is turn based one, but it doesnt work really that well in mmo
It did pretty well for Atlantica, I think it's a good alternative when done right.
Agreed. Actually was quite novel feeling in the kiddie MMO Wizards101.
I was hoping FFXIV would have been more like the series' ATB (active time battle) mechanic of yore, but it was just awful.
Technically, the OP is entirely correct. But who cares, really. We have all debated the meaning of words like "massive" and "role playing" on these forums but the average gamer doesn't care about those arbitrary terms or categories. He just wants a fun game.
Some people like twitch combat, some prefer "die rolling", some like both. The really great news is that both options are available in mmorpgs for those feel strongly about their preferences. Yes, there has been a trend toward twitch combat in recent years but new mmorpgs like Rift are still being released with more traditional die-roll combat. I think the availability of both styles has reached a good balance which is something we should all be thankful for.
Well I agree with some of the OPs suggestions. I feel like twitch combat is what a lot of people are clammering for and I prefer my MMORPGs non twitch based.
That said, I don't think if the game is twitch based it is no longer and RPG. I loved morrowind, oblivion, and many of the Zelda games to name a few and consider all of them RPGs.
My biggest issue with twitch based combat in MMORPGs comes down to time spent playing. I used to be a huge FPS junky and played on some very competitive ladders for UT and more so UT2k4 back in the day. With those games I would play for 2-3 hours tops with a few breaks in between matches or my eyes felt like they would melt out of my face. When I play MMORPGs I usually play for a minimun of 3 hours and have been known to go on 6-10 hour marathon sessions with little to no rest (sometimes with just one battle taking 6+ hours). If the combat in those situations was twitch based like an FPS game I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been physically able to do it without any complications to my eyes.
Plus to me MMORPG combat is about strategy, teamwork, and player skill, not who has the better aiming or twitch based skills like a fighting or FPS games. The people that are good at those types of games have those games to play there needs to still be a genre that everyone can be good at. So in the end I just hope we have choices. TERA looks like a great game but I won't be playing it simply because of the combat but I'm glad people have that choice. I just hope my choice doesn't dissapear because the other choice is more profitable.
Instead of using MMORPG all the time we should diversify.
Planetside? MMOFPS
Global Agenda? MMOTPSRPG
All those games saying theyre "Action" MMORPG such as WoW, Aion, Cabal, etc etc...Take that action out and shove it up your @$$ unless its like Tera. Which shouldnt be a mmorpg but a MMOARPG
And here comes the kicker...
Free Realms!
MMOTPSRTSPRFSIMARPG! Now say that with me! mumotepeesritespurfsimarpeg!
Isnt that awesum?
So what if a twitch game calls itself an mmorpg x.x The only time you should be complaining if a game comes out thats exactly like street fighter with no rpg elements whatsoever nd calls itself a fighting mmorpg. o.o
Edit :
And also, by your standards, the games you said (fallout, zelda, elder scrolls) SHOULDNT be called rpgs yet you consider them such o.o
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Your poll options are somewhat confusing since I disagree with your stance on (twitch has no place in MMO's) but then some of the options such as I disagree but like twitch combat make it confusing which option people should choose.
Anyways, I think there is a market for WoW style combat as much as there is a market for twitch based. Saying twitch based combat does not belong in MMORPG's is like saying "RTS elements do not belong in an FPS" which is crap because the concepts are both popular enough that there is obvious demand for them.
Twitch based MMO's that have leveling and skill points & character advancement are still MMORPG's since there is a character development aspect to them. Twitch based combat also does not mean RPG advancement is made worthless it just means developers must approach advancement differently. Just take a look at the combat mechanics in the mount and blade series for an example of almost perfect mechanics of allowing skill progression in an action based game as they have it down quite well.
For Example: in M&B anyone can use any basic weapon (and using weapons actually even slowly raises the skill in that weapon UO style to a point) however spending points in the specific skills makes you a lot more effective with them, faster at swinging a sword or blocking with it, more accurate with a bow/xbow, faster at lining up polearms, more accurate and longer range with spears/throwing axes/throwing darts, better at covering with shields.
Then there are skills that make you better at all the above from say horseback, or better at riding in general which can only be advanced by spending points each time you level, leveling these skills not only makes you better with those weapons but allows you to actually equip better weapons like heavier crossbows, longer ranged bows, bastard/hand and a half swords etc.
None of these base concepts are any different from those found in WoW, they are just approached & handled differently so as to allow for twitch based combat.
If your skill in Archery is say 10 and you try to use a bow in combat your reticle will not come in very tight or very fast, making your time between shots longer & your shot spread will be very unpredicatble, meaning you wont hit much of anything and when you do hit it will do very little damage no matter how good you are at picking the right firing arcs. As opposed to a higher level player who has say 100 skill in archery, plus power draw 3 (giving access to longer ranged more powerfull bows) and horse archery 3. This player is going to be able to run rings around you on a horse while rapidly hitting you with their bow shots (provided they use one of the bows allowable from horseback naturally) from a nice tight reticle that zeroes in rapidly, provided their twitch skill is good enough to keep their aim on you while riding and time their shots & arcs correctly. In this way you can see the RPG advancment mechanics are just as important as your twitch reflex.
If you have never tried any Mount & Blade games I highly reccomend warband, they have a great combat & advancement system as well as troop control & advancement that just beggs to be turned into an MMO.
To me twitch based combat makes PvE a hell of a lot more exciting for starters and provided there is not too much lag (hell APB:R can be played competitively at pings of 180-200 no problem) twitch based PvP can be a lot more interesting too.
Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be.
no, actually it is not, thats the point.
this is how it should be in FPS or RTS, not in RPG.
You can't just declare that RPG games shouldn't have twitch based combat. RPG covers a broad spectrum, from turn based, instanced combat like the early Final Fantasy games, to Oblivion and the upcoming Skyirim.
A few examples...
Oblivion - One of the best RPG games I have ever played
Fallout 3 - Didn't like it all that much, but same combat system
Witcher 2 - Great system, great RPG - pretty much totally twitch based
Rather than creating stupid, arrogant threads, maybe just let the people that want to play twitch combat games play them, and you stick to your mindless number-bashing.
Twitch combat is superior to tab targeting in all domains. First you are fully competent the first time you have your character in hand, and are not dependant in a stupid grind to make your combat interesting, twitch combat is interesting the first second. It give you full control and full aiming. If the combat system is modern enough and not one of this '90 fps combat you will have dodging system that is a must for any melee combat and parry that is a full parry mode, and not a damage mitigation crap. Movement simulation is one of the most important thing to give a proper combat system, the tab targting system is retarded in this aspect. Twich is just a system that can, i said can, its not up there but it can really give far superior simulation, because it doesn't have all the limitation tab targeting system have. The tab system is just too narrow minded and limited to go any further in improving combat simulation. In fact tab targeting is not a combat system at all, it is just a firing skill system and basta.
The only drawback from a twitch system is that all your fingers are used to control so you cannot use a lot of skills/spells that usual mmo demand. So or they need to tweak mmo to have less spells/skills, or they need to improve by a lot the control shema usual fps like combat have because usually only have weapon swap and no skill/spells, so impoving the handling like GW2 is doing is a must. Also they need fps to work at mellee which is a real challenge since fps was build to suit shooting combat, wich is ranged type. At contact movement and all the combat behavior are quiet different than ranged.
Comabt have nothing to do to role playing game. Its not as if you will say to the mob or the guy in front of you "wait sir, we are now going to have a speach combat, who loose die", combat is about action, not role playing.
Of course better twitch players will win more fights; that's exactly as it should be.
no, actually it is not, thats the point.
this is how it should be in FPS or RTS, not in RPG.
You can't just declare that RPG games shouldn't have twitch based combat. RPG covers a broad spectrum, from turn based, instanced combat like the early Final Fantasy games, to Oblivion and the upcoming Skyirim.
A few examples...
Oblivion - One of the best RPG games I have ever played
Fallout 3 - Didn't like it all that much, but same combat system
Witcher 2 - Great system, great RPG - pretty much totally twitch based
Rather than creating stupid, arrogant threads, maybe just let the people that want to play twitch combat games play them, and you stick to your mindless number-bashing.
I hear SW:ToR is full of mindless number bashing.
Witcher 2 had dice rolling!
I WIN!
haha, dont bash SWTOR or you will end up just like those "stupid , arrogant threads"
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Twitch is just another player skillset. In a non-twitch game you will also use player skill. Player skill in strategic overview, in tactical understanding of the combat etc.
If you want to completely avoid player skill, then it will barely be a game anymore.
Another thing is, even in FPS games, you get alot from the game. Where a normal person would probably not even be able to remove the safety switch on a sniper rifle, let alone doing the highly skilled job at setting it up for the right distance and taking into account wind, and then hit a target 1.5 km away, you can do this trivially in many FPS games.
And you can run&gun in FPS games, something that is almost impossible to do in r/l if you want to hit anything. Etc. etc.
From what I've seen, GW2 is going to reward the player for their motor skills. If you can react fast enough, dodge, etc, you can defeat bigger and badder opponents.
They also said something about having an easy mode for those who lack motor skills.
Personally I do not like twitch or action combat in my RPGs, I want a traditional combat style for my RPGs, modelled after DAoC or D&D (pre 4.0 version), i.e. a much slower combat than what we have in our current games. I prefer RPG combat where the player skill directs the tactical and strategic elements while the character skill determines the actual combat action.
That said, I'm aware that the RPG industry (both single- and multi-player) largely is moving away from traditional combat, towards action/arcade styles, in their attempt to lure the gazillions of console and FPS fans into the RPG genre. My bad. As usual, the masses will win and we will see much more action/arcade games.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
MMORPG is mutating into MMO Action and it's sad for me to see it. But it's inevitable, because kids are the largest part of the customers and usually all they want is a careless action.
in twitch based combat the one with better connection / less lag will win. My lag in north american servers is usually 0.3 seconds and it kills the pvp. And mass pvp places is a lag fest, so twitch pvp is a joke.
I like old everquest style with long fights, long casting times.
Although i also kind of liked the "FPS like" system in Darkfall..
Twitch based combat is great for Americans on American servers, not so great for Australians on American servers.
If this model becomes the norm I'd like to see some tempering of it based on average ping eg swing speeds factored inversely by ping such as a swing takes .75x as long if ping > 150 and arrows fly through the air more quickly if you have a high ping. Apologies for being slightly off topic but I cant consider twitch games without considering the consequences.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
I think these are 2 different sub genres within the MMO genre, and that’s what it is, there’s no “This is what an MMO should be or not be” , I personally sway towards the Action based RPG’s as I enjoy FPS games and feel that they take the MMO’s to a new level where the combination of existing mechanics are merged with a users skill and twitch ability, but these types of games do need to be localised on servers to each regions player base.
Whether this becomes the norm or what the market trend will deviate to is yet to be seen, but I think 3 types will and can co exist, if you look at the combat system’s for say: (just 3 ive picked, there are others)
World of War Craft : standardised MMO combat system and mechanics
Age of Conan : Hybrid System (partial twitch & skills system)
Dragons Nest : Action based system.
In reality there’s no actual reason that a developer couldn’t intertwine these 3 systems into a single game making that applicable to various players type’s needs and requirements.
Op:your subject is a bit vague.do you mean pve. Pvp.as for pve yes grinding boss because the ui can t be smart is bad.i want me ro have to dodge jump turn to attack my foe.now you kite and your done.true wow made the new fight smarter .but that being said it won't really happen why?cause it is almost impossible to dicern their attack till theim all for y find an easy way to do this as for pvp I'm all for it but mage will play the same.rogue? They already have to be behind.in fact gw1 has a directional system for op class like rogue some skill you need to face the enemysome skill you need to be behind eyc.so it isnt a new idea lol.but the best way to implement it was prob the gw way you see the skill coming(icon)after a while you know those by heart.it is century ahead of the wow way.might have this in gw2but i highly doubt other game will botter.remember that in the mmo world gw1 was the god of pvping. Hell blizzard even copied gw because it was insanelly pop format.but they couldnt copy the epicness of the gw1 fight.i played both and gw way is century ahead simplelike chess to learn epic like napoleon battle to master
That is why most big time game put a minimum global cooldown.wow it is one second i domt think there is one game with a global cd of less then 600ms .ty for feedback tho
I think the ideal style is somewhere beetween the 2 edges.
Both factors should be important. Players ideas during fight but also the character stats should affect the result of the player's action. Meaning the ammount of dmg,or maybe the chance that succesfull attack could be a glancing hit that wont hit much or no at all the enemy. You succesfully block an attack but how much succesfull it will be,how much dmg your block will mitigate from the attack or fully absorb the strike should be depended your character's defensive skill/stats.
That way both player's skills play a role and also character stats play its role as well.
How much each one and in what percentage? Well u cant say since that is up the evry game's mechanics and calculaion formulas.
I have a couple of questions for the people complaining about twitch-based mmo's:
Is it wrong for the genre to diversify?
Nupe
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to the masses while the masses seem to enjoy WoW's traditional combat?
Because they think there are more CoD players than WoW? I have no idea.
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to 'kids'?
Because the people who thinks twitch-based mmo are catering to 'kids' are actually older people who likes the traditional combat, thus thinking whoever likes twitch based combat are younger than them, therefore concluding that they are all 'kids' by attempting to degrading the whole younger generation.
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to people with better internet speed while this is hardly a problem for online FPS games?
Well MMO tends to have more like 32 people playing at the same time, so the scale of combat gets larger, thus internet speed can become important. But newer games have proven lag is usually NOT the main problem with twitch-based combat.
I also want to ask people who think traditional combat are the best. (Note: that I'm a fan of both, simply because I don't think combat make or break one game, there are many other factors to decide whats a good game)
Why do you think traditional combat is more 'tactical' and 'strategical'? From what I've learned from MMO combat is that, you are basically grinding numbers, to the point that, you can basically determine the outcome of a battle, before you even go into the battle.
Tactics and strategies requires 3 components, position, timing, and method, and are all relevant in a well designed twitch-based combat. Twitch-based combat involved execution of normal attack (timing), collision detection such as shooting and striking (position), and special skill usage (method).
Contrastingly, traditional combat takes away the idea of position and a bit of timing. Traditional combat only requires you to be in range to use a skill (position), it doesn't matter where you are facing or where you are actually standing, you can and only when you are in range, to be able to use a skill or attack, for me it actually breaks immersion when I see a error message of "Target is not in range", I think, why can't I just bloody shoot the arrow?
People want immersion, they want mechanics to seem realistic, yet when it comes to quicker combat or worse, one-shotting players, they just bersek and calling nerf wars. I can't honestly imagine a player to be able to protect themselves from a gigantic fireball, should a player be able to survive a heavy stomp from a 20 feet tall Stone giant? Maybe once, or maybe twice, but certainly not 1 hour. So blocking and dodging comes into the question, some people want to physically dodge an attack, some people want to just get character skill and be able to dodge it, both ideas are valid, but there are so many dice rolling based combat games out there, do we really need more of those?
Twitch-based combat is actually based on numbers too believe it or not, numbers control the speed of your character, the speed you are dodging attack, it simply hands a portion of the outcome to the player to control, twitch-based combat can certainly be integrated into the RPG mold just as well.
Next is the idea of timing in tactics and strategy. People often thinks twitch based combat just means button masher, but anyone you know who plays traditional combat mmo doesn't mash your normal hotkey 1-9? But you know mashing keys doesn't make you better, because there is a cooldown inplace for all skills. What if twitch-based combat apply a animation cooldown, so your character only attacks as fast as your skill animation allows you to be. This also bridges the gap of internet lag, by applying a .5 second global cooldown, you can easily bridge the gap of internet speed already.
Will twitch-based combat work in MMO, certainly, just as easy as traditional combat, its all about players wanting to accept a change in their games or not. Too often do people look at older, traditional games with rose-tinted glasses, and praise them like gods. They mention how those games provided immersion that modern games do not, yet they often do not remember the amount of bugs within those games, simply because they grew up with it. Same idea here, twitch-based combat is a new flavour in MMO, try it before you diss it.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I have never liked twich in MMO games, if I want twitch action I play FPS games, twitch on MMO servers has drawbacks- ping. A single server can have players from all over the nation and even around the world so ping varies and if your ping is higher than the other person you're fighting then you'll lose most of the time.
Comments
Combat is probably the least important aspect of Online RPGs for me. I like twitch and turn-based combat equally. I disagree that twitch does not belong in MMORPGs, though I do not think any Online RPG has done twitch PvE very well at all yet. I thought Global Agenda and Fallen Earth combat was just terrible, but I love the Quake series and Fallout 3/NV. I prefer twitch skill to statistical advantage for PvP.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It did pretty well for Atlantica, I think it's a good alternative when done right.
Agreed. Actually was quite novel feeling in the kiddie MMO Wizards101.
I was hoping FFXIV would have been more like the series' ATB (active time battle) mechanic of yore, but it was just awful.
Technically, the OP is entirely correct. But who cares, really. We have all debated the meaning of words like "massive" and "role playing" on these forums but the average gamer doesn't care about those arbitrary terms or categories. He just wants a fun game.
Some people like twitch combat, some prefer "die rolling", some like both. The really great news is that both options are available in mmorpgs for those feel strongly about their preferences. Yes, there has been a trend toward twitch combat in recent years but new mmorpgs like Rift are still being released with more traditional die-roll combat. I think the availability of both styles has reached a good balance which is something we should all be thankful for.
Well I agree with some of the OPs suggestions. I feel like twitch combat is what a lot of people are clammering for and I prefer my MMORPGs non twitch based.
That said, I don't think if the game is twitch based it is no longer and RPG. I loved morrowind, oblivion, and many of the Zelda games to name a few and consider all of them RPGs.
My biggest issue with twitch based combat in MMORPGs comes down to time spent playing. I used to be a huge FPS junky and played on some very competitive ladders for UT and more so UT2k4 back in the day. With those games I would play for 2-3 hours tops with a few breaks in between matches or my eyes felt like they would melt out of my face. When I play MMORPGs I usually play for a minimun of 3 hours and have been known to go on 6-10 hour marathon sessions with little to no rest (sometimes with just one battle taking 6+ hours). If the combat in those situations was twitch based like an FPS game I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been physically able to do it without any complications to my eyes.
Plus to me MMORPG combat is about strategy, teamwork, and player skill, not who has the better aiming or twitch based skills like a fighting or FPS games. The people that are good at those types of games have those games to play there needs to still be a genre that everyone can be good at. So in the end I just hope we have choices. TERA looks like a great game but I won't be playing it simply because of the combat but I'm glad people have that choice. I just hope my choice doesn't dissapear because the other choice is more profitable.
I agree!
Instead of using MMORPG all the time we should diversify.
Planetside? MMOFPS
Global Agenda? MMOTPSRPG
All those games saying theyre "Action" MMORPG such as WoW, Aion, Cabal, etc etc...Take that action out and shove it up your @$$ unless its like Tera. Which shouldnt be a mmorpg but a MMOARPG
And here comes the kicker...
Free Realms!
MMOTPSRTSPRFSIMARPG! Now say that with me! mumotepeesritespurfsimarpeg!
Isnt that awesum?
So what if a twitch game calls itself an mmorpg x.x The only time you should be complaining if a game comes out thats exactly like street fighter with no rpg elements whatsoever nd calls itself a fighting mmorpg. o.o
Edit :
And also, by your standards, the games you said (fallout, zelda, elder scrolls) SHOULDNT be called rpgs yet you consider them such o.o
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Your poll options are somewhat confusing since I disagree with your stance on (twitch has no place in MMO's) but then some of the options such as I disagree but like twitch combat make it confusing which option people should choose.
Anyways, I think there is a market for WoW style combat as much as there is a market for twitch based. Saying twitch based combat does not belong in MMORPG's is like saying "RTS elements do not belong in an FPS" which is crap because the concepts are both popular enough that there is obvious demand for them.
Twitch based MMO's that have leveling and skill points & character advancement are still MMORPG's since there is a character development aspect to them. Twitch based combat also does not mean RPG advancement is made worthless it just means developers must approach advancement differently. Just take a look at the combat mechanics in the mount and blade series for an example of almost perfect mechanics of allowing skill progression in an action based game as they have it down quite well.
For Example: in M&B anyone can use any basic weapon (and using weapons actually even slowly raises the skill in that weapon UO style to a point) however spending points in the specific skills makes you a lot more effective with them, faster at swinging a sword or blocking with it, more accurate with a bow/xbow, faster at lining up polearms, more accurate and longer range with spears/throwing axes/throwing darts, better at covering with shields.
Then there are skills that make you better at all the above from say horseback, or better at riding in general which can only be advanced by spending points each time you level, leveling these skills not only makes you better with those weapons but allows you to actually equip better weapons like heavier crossbows, longer ranged bows, bastard/hand and a half swords etc.
None of these base concepts are any different from those found in WoW, they are just approached & handled differently so as to allow for twitch based combat.
If your skill in Archery is say 10 and you try to use a bow in combat your reticle will not come in very tight or very fast, making your time between shots longer & your shot spread will be very unpredicatble, meaning you wont hit much of anything and when you do hit it will do very little damage no matter how good you are at picking the right firing arcs. As opposed to a higher level player who has say 100 skill in archery, plus power draw 3 (giving access to longer ranged more powerfull bows) and horse archery 3. This player is going to be able to run rings around you on a horse while rapidly hitting you with their bow shots (provided they use one of the bows allowable from horseback naturally) from a nice tight reticle that zeroes in rapidly, provided their twitch skill is good enough to keep their aim on you while riding and time their shots & arcs correctly. In this way you can see the RPG advancment mechanics are just as important as your twitch reflex.
If you have never tried any Mount & Blade games I highly reccomend warband, they have a great combat & advancement system as well as troop control & advancement that just beggs to be turned into an MMO.
To me twitch based combat makes PvE a hell of a lot more exciting for starters and provided there is not too much lag (hell APB:R can be played competitively at pings of 180-200 no problem) twitch based PvP can be a lot more interesting too.
You can't just declare that RPG games shouldn't have twitch based combat. RPG covers a broad spectrum, from turn based, instanced combat like the early Final Fantasy games, to Oblivion and the upcoming Skyirim.
A few examples...
Oblivion - One of the best RPG games I have ever played
Fallout 3 - Didn't like it all that much, but same combat system
Witcher 2 - Great system, great RPG - pretty much totally twitch based
Rather than creating stupid, arrogant threads, maybe just let the people that want to play twitch combat games play them, and you stick to your mindless number-bashing.
I hear SW:ToR is full of mindless number bashing.
Twitch combat is superior to tab targeting in all domains. First you are fully competent the first time you have your character in hand, and are not dependant in a stupid grind to make your combat interesting, twitch combat is interesting the first second. It give you full control and full aiming. If the combat system is modern enough and not one of this '90 fps combat you will have dodging system that is a must for any melee combat and parry that is a full parry mode, and not a damage mitigation crap. Movement simulation is one of the most important thing to give a proper combat system, the tab targting system is retarded in this aspect. Twich is just a system that can, i said can, its not up there but it can really give far superior simulation, because it doesn't have all the limitation tab targeting system have. The tab system is just too narrow minded and limited to go any further in improving combat simulation. In fact tab targeting is not a combat system at all, it is just a firing skill system and basta.
The only drawback from a twitch system is that all your fingers are used to control so you cannot use a lot of skills/spells that usual mmo demand. So or they need to tweak mmo to have less spells/skills, or they need to improve by a lot the control shema usual fps like combat have because usually only have weapon swap and no skill/spells, so impoving the handling like GW2 is doing is a must. Also they need fps to work at mellee which is a real challenge since fps was build to suit shooting combat, wich is ranged type. At contact movement and all the combat behavior are quiet different than ranged.
Comabt have nothing to do to role playing game. Its not as if you will say to the mob or the guy in front of you "wait sir, we are now going to have a speach combat, who loose die", combat is about action, not role playing.
Witcher 2 had dice rolling!
I WIN!
haha, dont bash SWTOR
or you will end up just like those "stupid , arrogant threads" 
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Twitch is just another player skillset. In a non-twitch game you will also use player skill. Player skill in strategic overview, in tactical understanding of the combat etc.
If you want to completely avoid player skill, then it will barely be a game anymore.
Another thing is, even in FPS games, you get alot from the game. Where a normal person would probably not even be able to remove the safety switch on a sniper rifle, let alone doing the highly skilled job at setting it up for the right distance and taking into account wind, and then hit a target 1.5 km away, you can do this trivially in many FPS games.
And you can run&gun in FPS games, something that is almost impossible to do in r/l if you want to hit anything. Etc. etc.
From what I've seen, GW2 is going to reward the player for their motor skills. If you can react fast enough, dodge, etc, you can defeat bigger and badder opponents.
They also said something about having an easy mode for those who lack motor skills.
Personally I do not like twitch or action combat in my RPGs, I want a traditional combat style for my RPGs, modelled after DAoC or D&D (pre 4.0 version), i.e. a much slower combat than what we have in our current games. I prefer RPG combat where the player skill directs the tactical and strategic elements while the character skill determines the actual combat action.
That said, I'm aware that the RPG industry (both single- and multi-player) largely is moving away from traditional combat, towards action/arcade styles, in their attempt to lure the gazillions of console and FPS fans into the RPG genre. My bad. As usual, the masses will win and we will see much more action/arcade games.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
twitch based combat means = internet speed based combat.
MMORPG is mutating into MMO Action and it's sad for me to see it. But it's inevitable, because kids are the largest part of the customers and usually all they want is a careless action.
in twitch based combat the one with better connection / less lag will win. My lag in north american servers is usually 0.3 seconds and it kills the pvp. And mass pvp places is a lag fest, so twitch pvp is a joke.
I like old everquest style with long fights, long casting times.
Although i also kind of liked the "FPS like" system in Darkfall..
I have a couple of questions for the people complaining about twitch-based mmo's:
Is it wrong for the genre to diversify?
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to the masses while the masses seem to enjoy WoW's traditional combat?
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to 'kids'?
Why would twitch-based mmo's be catering to people with better internet speed while this is hardly a problem for online FPS games?
Some FPS games do suffer from this, but most people have got a good internet connection nowadays and most MMORPGs have got good server structure.
Twitch based combat is great for Americans on American servers, not so great for Australians on American servers.
If this model becomes the norm I'd like to see some tempering of it based on average ping eg swing speeds factored inversely by ping such as a swing takes .75x as long if ping > 150 and arrows fly through the air more quickly if you have a high ping. Apologies for being slightly off topic but I cant consider twitch games without considering the consequences.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
I think these are 2 different sub genres within the MMO genre, and that’s what it is, there’s no “This is what an MMO should be or not be” , I personally sway towards the Action based RPG’s as I enjoy FPS games and feel that they take the MMO’s to a new level where the combination of existing mechanics are merged with a users skill and twitch ability, but these types of games do need to be localised on servers to each regions player base.
Whether this becomes the norm or what the market trend will deviate to is yet to be seen, but I think 3 types will and can co exist, if you look at the combat system’s for say: (just 3 ive picked, there are others)
World of War Craft : standardised MMO combat system and mechanics
Age of Conan : Hybrid System (partial twitch & skills system)
Dragons Nest : Action based system.
In reality there’s no actual reason that a developer couldn’t intertwine these 3 systems into a single game making that applicable to various players type’s needs and requirements.
I think the ideal style is somewhere beetween the 2 edges.
Both factors should be important. Players ideas during fight but also the character stats should affect the result of the player's action. Meaning the ammount of dmg,or maybe the chance that succesfull attack could be a glancing hit that wont hit much or no at all the enemy. You succesfully block an attack but how much succesfull it will be,how much dmg your block will mitigate from the attack or fully absorb the strike should be depended your character's defensive skill/stats.
That way both player's skills play a role and also character stats play its role as well.
How much each one and in what percentage? Well u cant say since that is up the evry game's mechanics and calculaion formulas.
I also want to ask people who think traditional combat are the best. (Note: that I'm a fan of both, simply because I don't think combat make or break one game, there are many other factors to decide whats a good game)
Why do you think traditional combat is more 'tactical' and 'strategical'? From what I've learned from MMO combat is that, you are basically grinding numbers, to the point that, you can basically determine the outcome of a battle, before you even go into the battle.
Tactics and strategies requires 3 components, position, timing, and method, and are all relevant in a well designed twitch-based combat. Twitch-based combat involved execution of normal attack (timing), collision detection such as shooting and striking (position), and special skill usage (method).
Contrastingly, traditional combat takes away the idea of position and a bit of timing. Traditional combat only requires you to be in range to use a skill (position), it doesn't matter where you are facing or where you are actually standing, you can and only when you are in range, to be able to use a skill or attack, for me it actually breaks immersion when I see a error message of "Target is not in range", I think, why can't I just bloody shoot the arrow?
People want immersion, they want mechanics to seem realistic, yet when it comes to quicker combat or worse, one-shotting players, they just bersek and calling nerf wars. I can't honestly imagine a player to be able to protect themselves from a gigantic fireball, should a player be able to survive a heavy stomp from a 20 feet tall Stone giant? Maybe once, or maybe twice, but certainly not 1 hour. So blocking and dodging comes into the question, some people want to physically dodge an attack, some people want to just get character skill and be able to dodge it, both ideas are valid, but there are so many dice rolling based combat games out there, do we really need more of those?
Twitch-based combat is actually based on numbers too believe it or not, numbers control the speed of your character, the speed you are dodging attack, it simply hands a portion of the outcome to the player to control, twitch-based combat can certainly be integrated into the RPG mold just as well.
Next is the idea of timing in tactics and strategy. People often thinks twitch based combat just means button masher, but anyone you know who plays traditional combat mmo doesn't mash your normal hotkey 1-9? But you know mashing keys doesn't make you better, because there is a cooldown inplace for all skills. What if twitch-based combat apply a animation cooldown, so your character only attacks as fast as your skill animation allows you to be. This also bridges the gap of internet lag, by applying a .5 second global cooldown, you can easily bridge the gap of internet speed already.
Will twitch-based combat work in MMO, certainly, just as easy as traditional combat, its all about players wanting to accept a change in their games or not. Too often do people look at older, traditional games with rose-tinted glasses, and praise them like gods. They mention how those games provided immersion that modern games do not, yet they often do not remember the amount of bugs within those games, simply because they grew up with it. Same idea here, twitch-based combat is a new flavour in MMO, try it before you diss it.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I have never liked twich in MMO games, if I want twitch action I play FPS games, twitch on MMO servers has drawbacks- ping. A single server can have players from all over the nation and even around the world so ping varies and if your ping is higher than the other person you're fighting then you'll lose most of the time.