To me personally ... 90% of the replayablity aspect on Beth games is due to player mods. I've played Elderscrolls and Fallout games for years and years but I can't see how I would have put in as much hours as I did without mods.
The vanilla games quickly become bland and uninspiring to me, content wise, graphics wise and main-quest wise. I just want to sandbox and rp in their gameworlds, improve it and be a part of it.
So to me, next to building sandbox worlds, the biggest achievement of Beth in game development is their commitment to keep offering us tools to make their games better. In a mmorpg made by them that obviously wouldn't work to that extent as people need to play in the same world with the same content and I wonder how they would do in long-term playabiliy without help from the community.
Ye but then again its because their games inspire people.
Yes, they inspire people to make their games better; more challenge, more factions, more dungeons, more quests, more and better housing options, more rp content, better companion ai, better looking bodies, hairdo's, clothing, armor, animations, weapons, plantlife, textures in general, etc. etc.
Its not as if their game give them tool as the NWN builder or something.
For the pc they have always offered us the GECK for Fallout games and the Construction Set for TES games. Not sure what you can do with the NWN builder but those can be used to edit and change pretty much every part of the game. They are essentially dev tools. (Not meaning you won't need additional software for some things though).
I adore my modded out version of TES:Oblivion, but one problem with the OPs argument is that BioWare essentially created all the lore that there will be in SW:TOR. Essentially, the story/setting/characters from KOTOR have become EU canon.
If you want Bethesda to have made SW:TOR, then you'd have to look back at KOTOR and think about how that would have been had Bethesda made it. Then you can extrapolate to a MMO version.
There's also the assumption that Bethesda wouldn't run in to the same problems making an MMO that BioWare have - making it run on as many types of hardware as possible - simplify graphics, catering to different player types (PvP, exploration (the datacron hunt), soloers, groupers, all that good stuff) - leading to compromises in game style that won't please everyone.
I would love to see a Bethesda MMO, but I'd rather they make one in a setting they "own" (Elder Scrolls) rather than co-opting someone else's IP. I reckon I could swallow the sword'n'board fantasy I've tired of in MMOs, if it was one of their games. I'm already waiting on tenterhooks for Skyrim...
I dunno, I guess rather than saying if Bethesda made SW:TOR it would be better, I'm more on the side of "If Bethesda make an Elder Scrolls MMO, that'd be something amazing." And I'd play it!
If Bethesda had their go at this IP, it would have made history and changed the way mmos are developed and played. Bioware will make a great game but it will be far from legendary. Story is great but freedom and "adventure" is even better. Being able to tell a story and give a sense of "freedom" is what Bioware lacks in all of their titles. Most of their games are very fun to play all the way through but only once. They always try to make up for their linear design by adding side quests that have multiple solutions, dialog or story, but the end content always ends up being the same. This is a big problem when you create a linear game. You can in many ways make it seem as if you have control of the direction of your path but at the end of the day it is very hard to create multiple end stories. Bethesda games have countless hours of reply value because even though there are story based objectives, the entire experience feels adventurous and gives the player a true sense that they have a little control over their destiny.
I believe Bethesda could have made a better game based upon their ability to "improve" their game design with each title. Bioware is using the same format that has seemingly worked for their linear RPGs. Tor is an mmorpg not an rpg. If you honestly believe story alone is going to provide longevity for this title, I highly disagree. Bioware needs to focus on creating a world that is engaging enough to want to play over and over again based upon unpredictable events and adventurous opportunities, not assuming their pre-determined paths will be enough to make us want to run the same scenario but with different answers or story direction.
Tor will be fun, it may even become the mmo of choice (for a while) but stop deceiving yourselves into believing that it will be revolutionary. They have your money now, feeding us mediocrity and everyone screams "hell yah" because it is Star Wars. I am very excited to see a polished Star Wars mmo being produced in our modern day, but this one has not utilized the full opportunity for greatness. Oh, well...
It seems the starwars and bioware fans want old graphics boring gameplay thats been done before for last decade made it into a WoW sy fy clone. If they want this and have fun let them, its there money they wanne waste.
Remember if they wanne be succes they need to make game thats playable on almost all pc config's going back to prolly oldest as 2004 so they get as many subs as they can after all its EA that want $$$ and bioware just OBEY.
You're kidding right? Same company that made Star Trek Legacy, one of the biggest bombs in all of star trek gaming? Game had a ridiculous amount of bugs and only improved once the modding community got a hold of it. No thanks.
I have every belief that Bioware could've made the most spectacular Star Wars MMO possible.
But I think they've really dropped the ball by trying to model World of Warcraft. Albeit a tried and true model... its also... old. And you can watch that latest SW:TOR video that just got added with the lvl 9 flashpoint and see some seriously dated gameplay and dated graphics.
I just reinstalled Star Wars: Jedi Knight - Jedi Academy and its graphics are nicer and the gameplay is more exciting...
Its a shame. But... might still have some fun value. I don't know.
Seriously? Even for a hater thats low and lvl 9 gameplay is serious business in any mmo, have you played EvE online? Sure it has no levels but how fun is the combat after the time it took you to get to lvl 9 in SWTOR?
Funny you wrote this, because this morning I was thinking about how if Bethesda made an MMO, it would be the best story sandbox game ever made. They would make it in a way that you don't feel locked into grinding the same story line in order to build your character. It would be a free open world. I can't wait to play Skyrim for the next couple years until a good MMO comes out.
If Bethesda had their go at this IP, it would have made history and changed the way mmos are developed and played. Bioware will make a great game but it will be far from legendary. Story is great but freedom and "adventure" is even better. Being able to tell a story and give a sense of "freedom" is what Bioware lacks in all of their titles. Most of their games are very fun to play all the way through but only once. They always try to make up for their linear design by adding side quests that have multiple solutions, dialog or story, but the end content always ends up being the same. This is a big problem when you create a linear game. You can in many ways make it seem as if you have control of the direction of your path but at the end of the day it is very hard to create multiple end stories. Bethesda games have countless hours of reply value because even though there are story based objectives, the entire experience feels adventurous and gives the player a true sense that they have a little control over their destiny.
I believe Bethesda could have made a better game based upon their ability to "improve" their game design with each title. Bioware is using the same format that has seemingly worked for their linear RPGs. Tor is an mmorpg not an rpg. If you honestly believe story alone is going to provide longevity for this title, I highly disagree. Bioware needs to focus on creating a world that is engaging enough to want to play over and over again based upon unpredictable events and adventurous opportunities, not assuming their pre-determined paths will be enough to make us want to run the same scenario but with different answers or story direction.
Tor will be fun, it may even become the mmo of choice (for a while) but stop deceiving yourselves into believing that it will be revolutionary. They have your money now, feeding us mediocrity and everyone screams "hell yah" because it is Star Wars. I am very excited to see a polished Star Wars mmo being produced in our modern day, but this one has not utilized the full opportunity for greatness. Oh, well...
you will get to explore, planets or maybe even in space
Lack of heavy stories emphasis (some people will like it, some people won't)
a lot of sandbox feature than your fotm MMOG, possibly crafting (not sure bethesda even done this before), player housing (again bethesda never actually done it before)
Con
Development time of 10 years.
It won't have the political turmoil setting in SWTOR, due to the lack of story
it wont have the same feel of fallout or elder scrolls, because there will be other people next to you (trust me this will change a lot of the experience, Fallout wouldn't have a wasteland feel when there are hundreds of people running next to you)
It won't have the same open feel to the single player series, unless players are willing to download and install 100GB of data. Open space is a very debateable topic, same as the point above, having other people running next to you make the space much cramped, it just won't have the same open space in Elder Scrolls or Fallout
Result will be a sandbox game that probably won't resemble the traditional sandbox produced by bethesda.
One thing people will need to realise is that, single palyer sandbox is VERY DIFFERENT to MMOG sandbox, the features are different, the target audience is different, scale and size will be very different.
Much like a single player story-driven RPG is very different from a story-driven MMORPG .
Honestly, we (all of us) have no idea how a Bethesda SW MMORPG would turn out. Which really means that we have no idea of whether or not BW's version would be better or not. It's kind of silly to discuss it, you can't just take Bethesda's single player sandbox games and apply them to MMORPG with no changes...I'm sure Bethesda would alter their formula to be an MMORPG.
All this thread is really saying is "I wish SWTOR had been a sandbox."
And hey, I can kind of emphasize that, I like sandboxes, but what's done is done. And we've had this argument 10000 times.
If Bethesda had made TOR, it would be a shallow, bug-riddled mess with MTs popping out the wazoo. I say this as someone looking forward to Skyrim, btw. I enjoy Bethesda games, but deep and meaningful experiences aren't really their forte or what I expect of them. =/
Much like a single player story-driven RPG is very different from a story-driven MMORPG .
Honestly, we (all of us) have no idea how a Bethesda SW MMORPG would turn out. Which really means that we have no idea of whether or not BW's version would be better or not. It's kind of silly to discuss it, you can't just take Bethesda's single player sandbox games and apply them to MMORPG with no changes...I'm sure Bethesda would alter their formula to be an MMORPG.
All this thread is really saying is "I wish SWTOR had been a sandbox."
And hey, I can kind of emphasize that, I like sandboxes, but what's done is done. And we've had this argument 10000 times.
This.
I fully agree with all the arguments said in quoted post, it's what I was thinking too, good sense of realism.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
you will get to explore, planets or maybe even in space
Lack of heavy stories emphasis (some people will like it, some people won't)
a lot of sandbox feature than your fotm MMOG, possibly crafting (not sure bethesda even done this before), player housing (again bethesda never actually done it before)
Con
Development time of 10 years.
It won't have the political turmoil setting in SWTOR, due to the lack of story
it wont have the same feel of fallout or elder scrolls, because there will be other people next to you (trust me this will change a lot of the experience, Fallout wouldn't have a wasteland feel when there are hundreds of people running next to you)
It won't have the same open feel to the single player series, unless players are willing to download and install 100GB of data. Open space is a very debateable topic, same as the point above, having other people running next to you make the space much cramped, it just won't have the same open space in Elder Scrolls or Fallout
Result will be a sandbox game that probably won't resemble the traditional sandbox produced by bethesda.
One thing people will need to realise is that, single palyer sandbox is VERY DIFFERENT to MMOG sandbox, the features are different, the target audience is different, scale and size will be very different.
Much like a single player story-driven RPG is very different from a story-driven MMORPG .
Yea lol, I actually said this in another thread, single player story provides player with an ending, a resolution to a story. But in MMORPG, story never ends, it keeps going on and on and on, its almost like a never-ending story (the worse kinda of them all)
Honestly, we (all of us) have no idea how a Bethesda SW MMORPG would turn out. Which really means that we have no idea of whether or not BW's version would be better or not. It's kind of silly to discuss it, you can't just take Bethesda's single player sandbox games and apply them to MMORPG with no changes...I'm sure Bethesda would alter their formula to be an MMORPG.
If a forum doesn't speculate anything.........you wouldn't have your 826 post count
All this thread is really saying is "I wish SWTOR had been a sandbox."
And hey, I can kind of emphasize that, I like sandboxes, but what's done is done. And we've had this argument 10000 times.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
If Bethesda did TOR, I would probably fall asleep playing. Their games are boring to me.
I feel the same way about 'find your own adventure' games. Take Morrowind as an example, a game a lot of gamers love.. From the very beginning of the game, I was at a complete loss as to where I should go, what I should do, and why I even cared.
Developers have to provide you with a direction for you to care instead choosing for yourself? Sounds reasonable. Having self agency in a game and making your own direction isn't for everyone. For those who dare step into them, all I can say is.
Supposedly they are working on an mmo. Or at least zenimax is somehow. If it can follow the formula of morrowind/oblivion/f3, and be a sandbox mmo, it could be truly great. Or it could be massive fail, but only because what they have in game design they lack in programming prowess.
Back when I was playing SWG and then Bioware released KOTOR everyone was saying how Bioware could do a Star Wars game better the Sony. Now that Bioware is actually doing a Star Wars game, Bioware doesn't seem to know what they are doing....or so people say. I guess that people are never happy and the grass is always greener sort of thing.
Think I am just going to wait to play SWTOR before I make up my mind as other people's minds are just not dependable.
Supposedly they are working on an mmo. Or at least zenimax is somehow. If it can follow the formula of morrowind/oblivion/f3, and be a sandbox mmo, it could be truly great. Or it could be massive fail, but only because what they have in game design they lack in programming prowess.
The major issue is that Star Wars is not a sandbox friendly genre. It is fast action, high adventure. In a sandbox game you spend a great deal of time exploring and developing a single world with a single economy. A sandbox game will always be limited in scale as population is what drives interactions and ecomony.
If you want a universe where story is driven by faction, evolves and jumps from differing locations you won't be able to lay the foundation for a sandbox. SWG's failings were largely due to this ... and before someone jumps in and tried to defend that game, simply look back at it over the last few years and convince yourself it was a success.
Being able to simply fly or run around the Star Wars universe to see the sights isn't enough to make it Star Wars. I'm all for some sort of hybrid but action and character driven story is what Star Wars is all about. A pure sandbox approach would fail each and every time someone tries to apply it to Star Wars.
Since I like Bethesda's SPRPG's much more then I do Bioware's..... I'd certainly be interested in seeing how they would do an MMO. That said, Bioware has it's share of fans too....so let them have thier fun with TOR.
Honestly for a Bethesda style MMO, I'd prefer an origional IP (i.e. one made by the developer) over a pre-existing big name IP anyone. It gives the Developer more freedom to let the players mold the story....and comes with fewer strings in terms of pre-existing expectations.
Well since Bioware really carved out the KOTOR (TOR) experience with some help from Dark Horse and the Golden Age of the Sith...I'd like to see Bioware continue down this path as it is...
That being said..I think if Bethesda was going to engage in Star Wars IP oriented content that the Jedi Outcast Series would be a very good place for them to start. I'd be very interested to see the results of that.
Well since Bioware really carved out the KOTOR (TOR) experience with some help from Dark Horse and the Golden Age of the Sith...I'd like to see Bioware continue down this path as it is...
That being said..I think if Bethesda was going to engage in Star Wars IP oriented content that the Jedi Outcast Series would be a very good place for them to start. I'd be very interested to see the results of that.
Oh man, an Oblivion type Jedi Outcast game... I'd have all sorts of good feelings about something like that.
This thread was created simply to point out the vast difference in development style for a Star Wars mmorpg title. Bioware makes great games and this isn't to say theme park games suck vs sandbox. I simply believe for this game, Bethesda would have done it justice and perhaps a more sandbox type game experience would have been better for a Star Wars mmorpg. I may differ in my point of view if you asked them to both develop a single player rpg. In such a case, Bioware could win.
My reasons for giving Bethesda the thumbs up on such an undertaking is strictly for re-play value purposes. An rpg (story) based game is often meant to be played through once. Even though we expect some type of "end game" experience with mmorpgs, the idea of endless exploration and objectives to accomplish past your max level is still something yet to be fully integrated in the genre. With a universe such as Star Wars, there is so much opportunity to provide a sense of freedom and awe. It would be nice to be able to virtually live the experience, not follow a script. If it were another title, I might differ.
By now, most of us are content with the fact that Tor is what it is but I still believe this was an opportunity missed. We may never see another chance at a Star Wars mmorpg. What we are getting is what it will be. Oh well.
Comments
My brand new bloggity blog.
I adore my modded out version of TES:Oblivion, but one problem with the OPs argument is that BioWare essentially created all the lore that there will be in SW:TOR. Essentially, the story/setting/characters from KOTOR have become EU canon.
If you want Bethesda to have made SW:TOR, then you'd have to look back at KOTOR and think about how that would have been had Bethesda made it. Then you can extrapolate to a MMO version.
There's also the assumption that Bethesda wouldn't run in to the same problems making an MMO that BioWare have - making it run on as many types of hardware as possible - simplify graphics, catering to different player types (PvP, exploration (the datacron hunt), soloers, groupers, all that good stuff) - leading to compromises in game style that won't please everyone.
I would love to see a Bethesda MMO, but I'd rather they make one in a setting they "own" (Elder Scrolls) rather than co-opting someone else's IP. I reckon I could swallow the sword'n'board fantasy I've tired of in MMOs, if it was one of their games. I'm already waiting on tenterhooks for Skyrim...
I dunno, I guess rather than saying if Bethesda made SW:TOR it would be better, I'm more on the side of "If Bethesda make an Elder Scrolls MMO, that'd be something amazing." And I'd play it!
It seems the starwars and bioware fans want old graphics boring gameplay thats been done before for last decade made it into a WoW sy fy clone. If they want this and have fun let them, its there money they wanne waste.
Remember if they wanne be succes they need to make game thats playable on almost all pc config's going back to prolly oldest as 2004 so they get as many subs as they can after all its EA that want $$$ and bioware just OBEY.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Are you high?
http://www.stevemv.com/other/reviews/swja/jediacademy2.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXvawg0TfGw&feature=related
versus:
http://www.vgfever.com/1851/new-images-of-star-wars-the-old-republic/
http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/816935/star-wars-the-old-republic/images/star-wars-the-old-republic-20090602061405242.html?page=mediaFull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2KvPDzaBos
Seriously? Even for a hater thats low and lvl 9 gameplay is serious business in any mmo, have you played EvE online? Sure it has no levels but how fun is the combat after the time it took you to get to lvl 9 in SWTOR?
Funny you wrote this, because this morning I was thinking about how if Bethesda made an MMO, it would be the best story sandbox game ever made. They would make it in a way that you don't feel locked into grinding the same story line in order to build your character. It would be a free open world. I can't wait to play Skyrim for the next couple years until a good MMO comes out.
Bethesda? Really man?
Do people thoroughly enjoy Oblivion without mods? It's an absolute mediocre experience to me without them.
Mods are cool, but It's funny how standard Oblivion has more of an MMO feel to it than 98% of MMOs.
Agreed.
Much like a single player story-driven RPG is very different from a story-driven MMORPG
.
Honestly, we (all of us) have no idea how a Bethesda SW MMORPG would turn out. Which really means that we have no idea of whether or not BW's version would be better or not. It's kind of silly to discuss it, you can't just take Bethesda's single player sandbox games and apply them to MMORPG with no changes...I'm sure Bethesda would alter their formula to be an MMORPG.
All this thread is really saying is "I wish SWTOR had been a sandbox."
And hey, I can kind of emphasize that, I like sandboxes, but what's done is done. And we've had this argument 10000 times.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
If Bethesda had made TOR, it would be a shallow, bug-riddled mess with MTs popping out the wazoo. I say this as someone looking forward to Skyrim, btw. I enjoy Bethesda games, but deep and meaningful experiences aren't really their forte or what I expect of them. =/
This.
I fully agree with all the arguments said in quoted post, it's what I was thinking too, good sense of realism.
+1
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
They need to stick to Elder Scrolls. ToR could only have been done by Bioware since they made such as excelent job of KOTOR years ago
If bethesda did TOR it would be a snorefest made with a strange ugly elven art style!
Playing GW2..
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
If Bethesda was making TOR?
Well I think we would get a somewhat over rated sandbox game.
Developers have to provide you with a direction for you to care instead choosing for yourself? Sounds reasonable. Having self agency in a game and making your own direction isn't for everyone. For those who dare step into them, all I can say is.
Welcome to the big apple.
We would have a nearly single player game?
You stay sassy!
Supposedly they are working on an mmo. Or at least zenimax is somehow. If it can follow the formula of morrowind/oblivion/f3, and be a sandbox mmo, it could be truly great. Or it could be massive fail, but only because what they have in game design they lack in programming prowess.
Back when I was playing SWG and then Bioware released KOTOR everyone was saying how Bioware could do a Star Wars game better the Sony. Now that Bioware is actually doing a Star Wars game, Bioware doesn't seem to know what they are doing....or so people say. I guess that people are never happy and the grass is always greener sort of thing.
Think I am just going to wait to play SWTOR before I make up my mind as other people's minds are just not dependable.
Let's party like it is 1863!
The major issue is that Star Wars is not a sandbox friendly genre. It is fast action, high adventure. In a sandbox game you spend a great deal of time exploring and developing a single world with a single economy. A sandbox game will always be limited in scale as population is what drives interactions and ecomony.
If you want a universe where story is driven by faction, evolves and jumps from differing locations you won't be able to lay the foundation for a sandbox. SWG's failings were largely due to this ... and before someone jumps in and tried to defend that game, simply look back at it over the last few years and convince yourself it was a success.
Being able to simply fly or run around the Star Wars universe to see the sights isn't enough to make it Star Wars. I'm all for some sort of hybrid but action and character driven story is what Star Wars is all about. A pure sandbox approach would fail each and every time someone tries to apply it to Star Wars.
You stay sassy!
Since I like Bethesda's SPRPG's much more then I do Bioware's..... I'd certainly be interested in seeing how they would do an MMO. That said, Bioware has it's share of fans too....so let them have thier fun with TOR.
Honestly for a Bethesda style MMO, I'd prefer an origional IP (i.e. one made by the developer) over a pre-existing big name IP anyone. It gives the Developer more freedom to let the players mold the story....and comes with fewer strings in terms of pre-existing expectations.
Well since Bioware really carved out the KOTOR (TOR) experience with some help from Dark Horse and the Golden Age of the Sith...I'd like to see Bioware continue down this path as it is...
That being said..I think if Bethesda was going to engage in Star Wars IP oriented content that the Jedi Outcast Series would be a very good place for them to start. I'd be very interested to see the results of that.
Oh man, an Oblivion type Jedi Outcast game... I'd have all sorts of good feelings about something like that.
This thread was created simply to point out the vast difference in development style for a Star Wars mmorpg title. Bioware makes great games and this isn't to say theme park games suck vs sandbox. I simply believe for this game, Bethesda would have done it justice and perhaps a more sandbox type game experience would have been better for a Star Wars mmorpg. I may differ in my point of view if you asked them to both develop a single player rpg. In such a case, Bioware could win.
My reasons for giving Bethesda the thumbs up on such an undertaking is strictly for re-play value purposes. An rpg (story) based game is often meant to be played through once. Even though we expect some type of "end game" experience with mmorpgs, the idea of endless exploration and objectives to accomplish past your max level is still something yet to be fully integrated in the genre. With a universe such as Star Wars, there is so much opportunity to provide a sense of freedom and awe. It would be nice to be able to virtually live the experience, not follow a script. If it were another title, I might differ.
By now, most of us are content with the fact that Tor is what it is but I still believe this was an opportunity missed. We may never see another chance at a Star Wars mmorpg. What we are getting is what it will be. Oh well.