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Star Wars: The Old Republic: The End of an Era and Beginning Anew

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  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920

    Originally posted by Khaine007

    TOR is looking great, only I wish they had player housing, although I'm sure that's something they'll add in later in the game.  There is plenty that they can still add in post-launch, just as SWG added in later patches/expansions.




     

     

    Have you ever known an MMO to add player housing after launch day?

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    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 679

    I look at it this way. gaming was in the beginning, had very steep learning curves. The first version of SWG had so many things you could do, but also had thousands of things you had to learn to be effective in it. I loved it all. It was a game that people avoided due to the bar being so high on entry, casuals spent countless hours on the forums asking for more simplicty and automation in the game.

    It was a tough game to learn lets face it. Simple people or people who claim they had jobs and kids wanted easy street. WOW offered that, and SOE seen the exodus to WOW. so they made the biggest design mistake in MMO history.

    Point is SWTOR will be the starwars MMO that all the simple people who get a headache doing math will flock to. it offers the ultimate in easy street and some rumors say  WOW is more complex then SWTOR.

    It's the wave of the future maybe. games were basically  you don't even have to be in it  to win it. I see complex games being a thing of the past like books and orginal thought.


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  • diver0129diver0129 Member UncommonPosts: 3

    Originally posted by agriffin85







    precious328 writes:









    I personally feel like we have went backwards.













     













    SWG (before Jedi) was a Star Wars game for the adult, e.g., player driven economy, gigantic worlds with player housing, player cities, player malls, superior crafting, in-depth surveying and harvesting, endless clothing options, deep space content, randomized item stats, incentives to use the social tools (cantinas / med centers) etc.













    Most everything about SWG was self-sustaining. There was always something to do.













    SWTOR, however, is a Star Wars game for the youth. It has story (not yours of course), which will ultimately come to an end. And what of end-game? Can I start a store? Can I plant a house? Can I go off and explore gigantic worlds? Can I go dicken' around in my starship? Can I plop down a guild hall? Can I do anything other than talk to quest giver, collect bear paws, and participate in redundant instanced PvP (Warzones)? NO.













     













    SWTOR is so tied down and linear it's not even funny.






    This is such a flawed statement for the fact that when SWG  was out the "fans" of the game did nothing but bitch and complain about how good the game "could" have been, and talked about nothing but what was wrong with the game.  Now that it's gone and ToR is coming out all these flames about ToR are popping up saying that SWG was such a great game and ToR will be trash.





    I guess it's human nature to only want what you cannot have and to never be happy with something until you've lost it but I mean come on...  SWG was a fundamentally bad game, even (like I said before) the hardcore so-called "fans" of SWG did nothing but bash it.  The direction that ToR is going is the modern age of MMO and the future of the mass market.







     














     










     




     

    You have no idea what you are talking about.  The complaints that people had with the original incarnation of SWG was that features were broken.  Not that the game was a poor concept.  If SOE/LA had fixed and balanced the original game instead of totally changing it, the player base would have been happy.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Member Posts: 684

    Originally posted by diver0129



    Originally posted by agriffin85
















    precious328 writes:






















    I personally feel like we have went backwards.





























     





























    SWG (before Jedi) was a Star Wars game for the adult, e.g., player driven economy, gigantic worlds with player housing, player cities, player malls, superior crafting, in-depth surveying and harvesting, endless clothing options, deep space content, randomized item stats, incentives to use the social tools (cantinas / med centers) etc.





























    Most everything about SWG was self-sustaining. There was always something to do.





























    SWTOR, however, is a Star Wars game for the youth. It has story (not yours of course), which will ultimately come to an end. And what of end-game? Can I start a store? Can I plant a house? Can I go off and explore gigantic worlds? Can I go dicken' around in my starship? Can I plop down a guild hall? Can I do anything other than talk to quest giver, collect bear paws, and participate in redundant instanced PvP (Warzones)? NO.





























     





























    SWTOR is so tied down and linear it's not even funny.














    This is such a flawed statement for the fact that when SWG  was out the "fans" of the game did nothing but bitch and complain about how good the game "could" have been, and talked about nothing but what was wrong with the game.  Now that it's gone and ToR is coming out all these flames about ToR are popping up saying that SWG was such a great game and ToR will be trash.













    I guess it's human nature to only want what you cannot have and to never be happy with something until you've lost it but I mean come on...  SWG was a fundamentally bad game, even (like I said before) the hardcore so-called "fans" of SWG did nothing but bash it.  The direction that ToR is going is the modern age of MMO and the future of the mass market.















     






























     






















     










     

    You have no idea what you are talking about.  The complaints that people had with the original incarnation of SWG was that features were broken.  Not that the game was a poor concept.  If SOE/LA had fixed and balanced the original game instead of totally changing it, the player base would have been happy.




     

    I agree. The game would've clearly started picking up, as we literally have no variety within the MMO genre. Theme Park, Theme Park, Theme Park,

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Member Posts: 684



    Originally posted by Draemos




    Originally posted by precious328

    I personally feel like we have went backwards.





     





    SWG (before Jedi) was a Star Wars game for the adult, e.g., player driven economy, gigantic worlds with player housing, player cities, player malls, superior crafting, in-depth surveying and harvesting, endless clothing options, deep space content, randomized item stats, incentives to use the social tools (cantinas / med centers) etc.





    Most everything about SWG was self-sustaining. There was always something to do.





    SWTOR, however, is a Star Wars game for the youth. It has story (not yours of course), which will ultimately come to an end. And what of end-game? Can I start a store? Can I plant a house? Can I go off and explore gigantic worlds? Can I go dicken' around in my starship? Can I plop down a guild hall? Can I do anything other than talk to quest giver, collect bear paws, and participate in redundant instanced PvP (Warzones)? NO.





     





    SWTOR is so tied down and linear it's not even funny.

    Funny, most adults don't have time for the game you describe as an "adult" game.  Maybe you should have said "unemployed/highschool/college student" game.

    I'm coming up on 30.  When I was in college and highschool, I wanted SWG.  Now?  I don't have time for that shit, and neither does any other adult w/ any sort of responsibilites.






     

    But you have the time to play a Theme Park MMO and post 500 times in the MMORPG forum? The time sink depends on the gamer. I play about 1.5 hours per day / 3-5 hours on the weekends.

    What a terrible and troll-like argument.

    The word, "adult" was meant for SWG's complexity.



     

  • KelthiusKelthius Member UncommonPosts: 298

    I personally don't agree with the whole "If this game fails we won't see another like it in a long time." I don't think one game can have that kind of negative impact. Now, if you were to say "If the next few AAA MMOs fail" then I would agree. TOR failing would just mean I have GW2 or maybe Archeage to look forward to.

    On another note, preview your posts people. It's annoying to have to scroll through half a page of huge quotes.

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  • ObeeObee Member Posts: 1,550

    Originally posted by Madimorga



    Originally posted by Khaine007







    TOR is looking great, only I wish they had player housing, although I'm sure that's something they'll add in later in the game.  There is plenty that they can still add in post-launch, just as SWG added in later patches/expansions.










     

     

    Have you ever known an MMO to add player housing after launch day?

     

    Housing was added to Lotro several months after launch and EQ had housing added in an expansion almost a year ago (over ten years post launch).  None of that means houses will be added to TOR, but it it has happened before.

     

     

  • Nhoj1983Nhoj1983 Member UncommonPosts: 185

    Gotta say.. I'm not all that unhappy that SWTOR is less a sandbox and more a themepark.  I mean don't get me wrong I love a bit of sandbox.. but I've found that often games like the Elder scrolls tend to do it as well if not better than every single other Sandbox MMO out there.  I'd love more sandbox elements but Bioware rpgs and mmos mixed together in one package is anything but "same old same old".  While I'm not uphappy I fully realize this still isn't "perfect".  Still this could be a intermediary step in the evolution of mmos.

     

    Thing is a pure sandbox game is.. well overwhelming to most.  When you have no direction and no order it can often seem to be an empty world with nothing to do.  A lot of so called sandbox mmos(so called because many really don't offer much in the way of content) have started that way and some have really overcome those issues.(looks at Eve) but I've got to say.. can you imagine a sandbox mmo.. that has biowareish dialog and story..  Elder scrolls has already made steps in that direction of late..still not there.. but 10 years from now?  20?  As the gaming population grows more demand for such "different" aproaches will probably be seen..  A mix of sandbox and themepark..  I think all we need is Bethesda to finally decide to take their game online.. but then again.. they've said they're happy where they are and they really don't have to do so to make a splash.

    People like sandboxes... but most don't like how sandbox mmos have been implemented.  They're going to have to find that sweet spot eventually or perhaps we'll just see mmos die as we know them.. perhaps going from "massively" to just "multiplayer".  I'm not talking anywhere near now but in the far flung future... right now.. I see a lot of great new mmos coming that are different if not the dream that mmos were back in the late 90s early 2000s.  I'm not burnt on sandboxes yet.  My life just doesn't allow me enough time to play mmos to that point.  Bioware read my mind when it comes to my wishlist for mmos.. more rpg.  I'm quite happy with that.  For now.. we shall see about that in 5 years.

  • AkaisAkais Member UncommonPosts: 274

    I didn't play SWG and harbor no opinions on it. I expect to play SW:TOR due to the fact it's a BioWare product and I liked Knights.

    My largest concerns with this game is that it's tied to an IP that they can't actually own. Had I my preferences, I would have rather seen BioWare release ME3 at the start of 2012 and launch a ME:Online MMO title at the tend of the same year.

    My reasons for this are simple: Star Wars has such a polarizing effect on people that the IP is as much a hindrance as it is a help. The fact that the IP is owned by a seperate entity that can mitigate the games artistic direction (for better or worse) and speed without real consequence is worrisome.

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,901
    This is the first MMO since WoW to be a huge deal. Everyone wants to bash or praise it so they can say "I told ya so". They have a date, now I say everyone calms down and wait to see if BW really has their ducks in a row.
  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914

    Originally posted by Obee

    Originally posted by Madimorga

    Have you ever known an MMO to add player housing after launch day?

    Housing was added to Lotro several months after launch and EQ had housing added in an expansion almost a year ago (over ten years post launch).  None of that means houses will be added to TOR, but it it has happened before.

    Asheron's Call as well.

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  • ZillenZillen Member Posts: 141

    I'm actually quite disappointed with SWTOR, to the point that this release date announcement hasn't done anything for me at all.

    I've been really hoping over the past year that SWTOR would bring something incredibly awesome, flexible and new to the table, something that we've never seen before. And even though they keep rattling on about "story" and how it's about you, from what I've seen from trailers, gameplay previews and demos, I'm started to think that Mr. Dallas Dickinson has been crapping s$#! down our throats this whole time.

    The textures and graphics qualities are a huge let down. WoW had a few pretty corny features but the latest graphics have looked to me like a cross between Halo: CE's forerunner buildings filled with enough pretty lights to induce an epileptic seizure. The character "animations" and "expansive dialogue" are all pretty much linear and straightforward, to the point that your options to an NPC's question are 'Yes', 'No', and 'Tell me some pointless lore'. 

    And the story; this is what pisses me off. This entire time they've been going on about how much this feature will impact us, but from what we've seen it seems that nothing you do will actually have much impact on the persistent world around you. It seems to be based around instancing, repeatable flashpoints and companions who you can't even tell to get lost to if you hate them (unlike other Bioware games)

    PvP? King of the Hill with some new paintjobs. Huttball? A carbon copy of Halo's Griffball.

    When the Bioware devs said that they wanted to take a leaf from WoW's page, I didn't expect them to backpedal and design their game around the cartoonish, repeatable wet dreams of a 6-year old button-masher. :(

    image
    I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".

    There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.

    There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.

  • mattidoremattidore Member Posts: 31

    lol SWTOR = Sci-Fi WoW, it brings nothing drastically new to the table. I mean, it brings "new" features, but even MMO's that are carbon copies of WoW bring a couple of "new" features. 

    If you want real innovation play GW2 or Tera (seems a little low on news/info but still theres some)

  • CandombleCandomble Member UncommonPosts: 164

    Originally posted by mattidore

    lol SWTOR = Sci-Fi WoW, it brings nothing drastically new to the table. I mean, it brings "new" features, but even MMO's that are carbon copies of WoW bring a couple of "new" features. 

    If you want real innovation play GW2 or Tera (seems a little low on news/info but still theres some)


     

    Thanks mate. Very useful tip.

  • CorehavenCorehaven Member UncommonPosts: 1,533

    Originally posted by Isturi

    Originally posted by BlackUhuru


    Originally posted by Isturi

    If you are referring to WoW as the 800lbs gorilla I do believe that gorilla has lost some weight and is looking more and more famish. I think TOR will take over the number one spot. Just as I mention before in prior post.

    Maybe for about 2 months then the masses will start to fade away...... Far far away ....... Onto the next console game.

     

    Sorry I'll have to disagree. I feel very strong about my opinion that TOR will take over the number one spot and not just for a few month but for a long time to come why?

    1. There has been a huge fan base for Star Wars alone since '78

     

    Didnt help SWG much.  So Im not betting on that.  Im a huge Star Wars fan too.  Im not planning on buying the game at release if ever. 

    2. there has been a huge fan base for KotOR since '03

    Very true.  Although its been awhile and games have moved forward.  We're getting to the point now that Kotor is enough in the past that a lot of serious gamers havent even played it.  Once upon a time that might not have been true.  Mass Effect anyone? 

    3. Gamers are freaking sick of blue skin elf and orcs.

    I have to admit I do sort of feel this way.  And so do many others.  But then again, WoW still has a gigantic user base.  Lord of the Rings is still very popular stuff.  Heck there's even a Hobbit movie under production right now.  And it'll make huge bucks.  Those are movies, but games arent really any different as far as the "sick of fantasty" stuff goes.  I think people in general arent as tired of it as you might think.  Especially if its just plain good.  Good is good, no matter if its chocolate, or strawberry. 

    4. A Sci Fi MMO is relatively new a few has tried and died but not do to lack of fan base (Tubla Rasa)

    Very true.  The genre needs some serious Sci Fi mmos and yes, players are clamoring for them.  Variety is the spice of life. 

    5. Other Sci Fi MMO's (EVE) have pretty much leveled out.

    Yup. 

    6. Only other major contender to a Sci Fi MMO is WildStar but that is still in the works.

    Might be a huge hit too.  But its awhile off.  And being that it doesnt have the Star Wars name, its going to really have to be something new and special to grab peoples attention.  But it might be just that. 

    7. Bioware

    And?  EA.  Dragon Age 2 anyone?  Bioware no longer has a spotless reputation.  Not among gamers and if you want to say " Hey the press gave DA2 good reviews", they probably did so just because it was "Bioware".   But since EA got ahold of them Im not sure what to think.  Perhaps they'll seriously redeem themselves somehow.  Also, and more importantly this is a new studio called Bioware Austin.   We'll just have to see there.  Im getting a little tired of people saying "Bioware" these days.  Once upon a time I would have clapped and cheered right along with them.  Not anymore.

    8. WoW has been losing player base for some time now and if the keep cramming x-patch down players throats they will lose even more. I promise I probably will never go back to WoW. Been there done that and I am sure im not the only one who feels this way.

    And if WoW looses a million subs more, it'll be like a drop in the bucket to them.  Their sub numbers are just unresonable.  Unreal.  Most mmos would be lucky to ever have a million subs.  Wow has what?  11 million of them?  Thats just stupidly insane.  And they've got yet another mmo coming down the tracks.  Uh oh.  Sometimes I wonder if the only thing thats really going to kill WoW is another Blizzard mmo.  And at that point they'll probably make WoW F2P or B2P and it wont make a darn difference.  They'll STILL have millions of subs. 

    Anywho those are just a few facts that I can think of why TOR will be number one and I dare say in 2012.

     

    No.  And......no.  Its possible.  But its going to take a bit.  Swtor is not going to launch and have millions upon millions of subs right off the bat.  IF, and I said "IF" the game is extremely good somehow, then they will after a period of time.  Swtors only upcoming competition isnt WoW.  And if your points is that people are sick of WoW, Swtor is modeled after it.  Devs have said as much.  So thats not a saving grace. 

     

    The game might very well be number one by the end of 2012 or going into 2013.  If so Id be VERY surprised.  But perhaps pleasantly surprised.  I remain very skeptical for now. 

     

    Sorry about the yellow text.  Just trying to seperate our text.  : P 

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505

    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    This is the first MMO since WoW to be a huge deal. Everyone wants to bash or praise it so they can say "I told ya so". They have a date, now I say everyone calms down and wait to see if BW really has their ducks in a row.

    Not really every aaa mmorpg that has come out since wow has been a big deal.. last one being rifts lol..

     

    Anyway im not looking forward to this at all, its over priced, over hyped and over dumbed down LOL.. I will check out a trial whenever they have one but i dont think ill be buying it..

     

    As for SWG when it was released it was the best MMO out there and was popular for a long time until CU.. it was a shame but thats the way things go..

     

     

  • Hopscotch73Hopscotch73 Member UncommonPosts: 971

    Yeesh, guys you all need to calm down. 

    Breaching NDA to argue about whether a game is good or not is just idiocy, since you all know full well that the majority of people reading this are not in testing, and can't argue. Why is it so important to bandy around tester (or former tester) access as a mark of "knowledge"? Cause all I'm seeing is opinion, and a pi$$ing contest. It's laughable.  

    I've pre-ordered SW:TOR and I would raise a cynical eyebrow at anyone who says it'll dethrone WoW, it's almost a guaranteed jinx on any game that people claim that and a couple of months later everyone laughs at them.

    As for SWG closing, Smed claims that it was SOE's decision as much as LA's. Despite having hardcore fams still, there obviously aren't enough of them to keep the servers live and pay the IP costs. Would seem that it's finally sunk in at SOE that the NGE was not something they could ever come back from. Who's to say that they weren't afraid that they would lose whatever subs they had left to the new kid on the Star Wars MMO block? Better to chose when to go out than be beaten into abject submission.

    These two games are not the same, they shouldn't be the same. If you want SWG2, go nag Koster about it. SW:TOR is based off KOTOR, and that's the way it should be IMO, BioWare are making their MMO, their way, in a period of SW history that they know better than anyone else. For them to try to do anything else would just be silly.

    Come late December, everyone can see for themselves (if they care) whether or not they enjoy playing SW:TOR, and the fond farewells will have been said to SWG. It'll be interesting to see the tenor of the arguments around here then.

  • PocahinhaPocahinha Member UncommonPosts: 550

    Originally posted by Czanrei

    I understand the reasons for shutting SWG down relating to their license expiring, but I dont think replacing a sandbox mmo with one on rails is a good trade imho.

    It not replacing a sandbox for a themepark..

     

    Its trading a game that makes a few hundred dollars for one that will make a few millions...

    One that has a few hundred players for one that will have millions...

  • Binny45Binny45 Member UncommonPosts: 522

    Originally posted by precious328

    I personally feel like we have went backwards.

     

    SWG (before Jedi) was a Star Wars game for the adult, e.g., player driven economy, gigantic worlds with player housing, player cities, player malls, superior crafting, in-depth surveying and harvesting, endless clothing options, deep space content, randomized item stats, incentives to use the social tools (cantinas / med centers) etc.

    Most everything about SWG was self-sustaining. There was always something to do.

    SWTOR, however, is a Star Wars game for the youth. It has story (not yours of course), which will ultimately come to an end. And what of end-game? Can I start a store? Can I plant a house? Can I go off and explore gigantic worlds? Can I go dicken' around in my starship? Can I plop down a guild hall? Can I do anything other than talk to quest giver, collect bear paws, and participate in redundant instanced PvP (Warzones)? NO.

     

    SWTOR is so tied down and linear it's not even funny.

    Sorry, but even though SWG did a lot to forward some concepts in MMO gaming, it was hardly a shining star.  Even pre-NGE, it was BORING.  The PvP was way out of whack, between Bounty Hunters hording on people trying to play jedi, to having a couple of builds that were completely unstoppable and completely overpowered.

    Though the crafting was detailed, I'll give it that, I found that the game was uninspiring, the quests scant and few, and the epic Star Wars battles were simply not there.  The game was just grinding, and grinding and grinding and grinding.....and grinding. And then I had to stand in a stupid bar and listen to someone dance/sing so I could go adventure some more? Please, this game was hardly "golden" even in it's "good" days.

    That being said, there are those that supported this game with the religous ferver of a zealot, especially the RP crowd.  This game was a niche game.  It had its set subscribers, however who can blame SOE for trying to get more people in?  Remember, SOE, like every other company out there do not make games for your enjoyment, they make them to make money.  If a game isn't making money, then frankly it's not worth hosting.  Did the NGE make things better? Yes and no.  No in that it took out the character customibility.  Having all those classes and being able to mix and match was one thing I liked about SWG (even if the balance was WAY out of whack).  But unlike pre-NGE, there was an attempt at CONTENT! You know, that thing that those of us who don't want to stand around all night emoting to each other want to do to enjoy the game.

    In the end, I'm glad it's over.  That game has been a sick old dog for a long time and imho should have been put down years ago.  Go ahead, rage and flame away, but search your feelings you know it to be true.

    image

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    SWG was barely a Star Wars game.

    It was certainly a MMO and certainly a game, but a Star Wars game?

    I'd contend that TOR is much more of a Star Wars game, but will probably be less of a MMO.

    I'm ok with that, as SWG was an awful MMO (unless you just loved grinding and FOTM everything oh and bugs and broken "content")

  • VolkonVolkon Member UncommonPosts: 3,748

    End of an era, start of an error.

    Oderint, dum metuant.

  • CandombleCandomble Member UncommonPosts: 164

    Originally posted by Volkon

    End of an era, start of an error.


     

     Can you be more specific?

  • BlackUhuruBlackUhuru Member Posts: 770

    Let me try to explain why i think SWTOR will never live up to the hype and even come close to the sub numbers WoW has.

    1. SWTOR at it's core is just another Themepark game and people are getting sick of them.

    2. There not doing anything, and i mean anything new.

    3. SWTOR has turned off a huge community of long time MMORPG gamers.

    4. PvP gamers will find nothing in SWTOR thats intersting enough.

    5. Sandbox gamers laugh at it.

    6. SWTOR is more a console game then MMORPG.

    7. The whole look of the game and graphic direction is more catered towards children, adults cringe at the appearence of the game.

    8. SWG fans have nothing in SWTOR to look forward to.

    9. Theres alot of new releases coming out soon that have more intersting mechanics then SWTOR offers. GW2, ArcheAge, Tera etc...

    10. Most of us already know the story! And if that's SWTOR's main selling point?

    For true fans of StarWars they will be hard pressed to find the type of gritty, dark and Wartorn universe there looking for in Biowares interpretation.

    "It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  • CandombleCandomble Member UncommonPosts: 164

    Originally posted by BlackUhuru

    1. SWTOR at it's core is just another Themepark game and people are getting sick of them.

    Are they? Where are those stats?

    Honestly I hope to have fun in SWTOR, being it no1 or no99, don't care. if it fails I will move on. Many new games coming.

    What I don't understand is so many people are worried with number ones and the success or lack of it of SWTOR. 

    If I went to every single topic of a MMO that I don't like or don't believe that it will be good to talk bad about it, I would profissionalize myself in commenting on this site...

  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933

    Originally posted by BlackUhuru

    Let me try to explain why i think SWTOR will never live up to the hype and even come close to the sub numbers WoW has.

    1. SWTOR at it's core is just another Themepark game and people are getting sick of them.

    Indeed.. that's why themeparks are fading away while sandbox MMO's are going stronger than ever atm. 

    Oh, wait.. 

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