some communities are going to worsen with free/mium and some aren't because some games are more suited to attract the kind of folks who well, to be frank, trash communities.
in LOTRO i hardly notice any difference in community once i get out of the beginning areas. why? because the game kind of lends itself to more mature folks. conversely in DDO i noticed a lot more snotty folks in stormreach and it made the game really seem a lot more F2p than LOTRO even though both games have the precise same model.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Well I was playing Lotro as P2P game , then I stayed for over half a year after change to Freemium model.
Initial rush of new players was not bad, not as bad as I was afraid. After this first month-two of player increase , in following months population stopped rising , and even declined a bit after. But well that's kinda normal , all new things get rushed.
So most new / free players were not bad, but over time game community changed imho. There were more players that were more into 'progress' , running instances ,etc than before , but hard to tell if that was caused by free players or Turbine caused it by changing Lotro itself by putting more emphasis on running instances, barter systems , etc than open world and community interaction than before.
Instant teleportation to instances was one of that changes Turbine incorporated.
Store was obviously second thing that impacted community alot , "everybody" started talking about shop , Turbine Points, about items avabile in shop, most attention getting were all 'advantage' items , such as stat tomes , store-only relics, etc - well they were bestsellers frequently so nothing suprising.
So imho changes that are made to most F2P games , so cash shop sell items , and impact cash shop has on game also FORMS and CHANGE community.
So I think we put too much emphasis on how free players change community and not enough emphasis on how big impact on community and people behaviour has ITEM SHOP itself.
I disliked it , I've really tried to continue to play Lotro, I had really best guild and people I've met in any mmorpg , I loved middle-earth world and great sceneries and immersion Turbine created in Lotro, but then Turbine , changed their game , new open world regions started to be 'less polished' and look very generic.
Biggest impact item shop had, I really tried to live with it, but just knowing that there is direct link between game items and $ , through item store , slowly killed immersion for me.
I realized that just cash shop EXISTENCE is bothering me alot. Unfortunatelly this is what industry is going into , so if I will be able to find a game that is p2p and has MAX. like 5 very vanity items for cash , and game will be interesting I will stll play mmorpg's.
When I won't be able to find game like that anymore , I will sadly have to stop playing mmorpg's.
I've tried few freemium games and few f2p games , but ultimatelly I cannot stand them.
There are some p2p games that have or plan to put quite big cash shops into them , and I loathe that kind of business model (it is even worse that f2p) , so that limits me even more.
I am not playing anything atm. Just waiting for new games. Sadly Swtor is not type of game I want to play , even though it's business model I like
So concluding , I don't think 'free players' themself are a problem , well at least most of them. Sure there is maybe bigger % of whiners and idiots in f2p games , but I think biggest diffrence is becasue business model itself and impact it have on people and game itself , than because 'free players' are worse or something.
Why are people assuming that Hybrid/Freemium's are the same thing as a pay to win game? As much as I'm not onboard with the ftp model, this article was well written and mostly correct.
Because there are almost no actual FTP games. The majority of them are P2W. People are attempting to define P2W as something other than it is.
Is there content you cannot do without buying it - then it is not realy F2P. Does that content offer better gear, better experience, etc? So you...P2W.
Can you buy health pots? What? How can a health pot be a P2W item? Well, does the person that can buy more of them have an advantage over the person that cannot?
Are you able to buy an advantage? You're paying to win.
Are you buying some fluff costume piece that offers no advantage? Well, then you're just making a RMT.
Some people want to say that most of it is Paying for "Convenience" rather than Paying to Win... how convenient of them.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
So concluding , I don't think 'free players' themself are a problem , well at least most of them. Sure there is maybe bigger % of whiners and idiots in f2p games , but I think biggest diffrence is becasue business model itself and impact it have on people and game itself , than because 'free players' are worse or something.
Fin
I think that is the bigger issue for many people, including myself. Games are going to have people we'd rather were not playing whether the game is P2P, B2P, FTP, ~FTP, P2W, etc, etc, etc.
It is how the game changes as those Item Shops become the focus of the game.
It is laughable in a sense, thinking about how some people play MMORPGs for immersion...and tada, there is a big ol' store icon on the GUI. Imagine how different it might be, even if the Item Shops were outside of the game itself. If it were like how it was previously with CoX - you could go to the site to buy the various booster packs. Separation of store and game.
But the focus is on the Item Shop and generating revenue... so'oh well.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
So tired of people who think they know what they are talking about getting on these forums and tellimg me that F2P means P2W. It's completely false and It's soooo much better then the Sub only games. Okay here's what's wrong with the sub only games.
1: They design the game poorly so you have to spend extra whole months to get anything worth while, just to force you to keep your sub going as long as they possibly can. Case-in-point, World of Warcraft. If anyone disagrees then you've never played that game or have never reached end-game content.
2: The content patches including small improvement patchs are far and few between, everyone knows this. Why? because they mismanage their money on these games and cannot keep their devs. The exception to this rule is Rift, they have done a great job in churning out end-game content. The problem with Rift tho is they too have a recent history of it taking longer and longer and longer to churn out said content. It's only a matter of time before they will be forced by the economics of this model, to go F2P because then they will have the revenue to churn out content faster then with sub only. Same goes for SWTOR. It's only a matter of time.
3: The sub only material is more of the same usually, dailies, point grinds, replacement gear all designed to keep you in the game as long as possible. I was one of the many who realized just how bad World of Warcraft was about this when i started paying attention to other games. I realized that it shouldn't take 3 months to get geared for raiding and another 100 runs of the same raid to get raid level gear (10 man) only to have to start ALL over again doing the same things when the next expansion came out.
I'm sorry you sheeple disagree with the fact that the sub only market is flawed and thus dwindling, or that their age old model is dying because it is not economically sound or sustainable for long periods of time but these are the facts. And to spew the crap about F2P being P2W only strengthens everyone who DOES understand view of just how ignorant you are of the facts. Adapt and move on is my only suggestion. Meanwhile the rest of us who already have moved on will be enjoying ourselves on multiple games.
In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.
Really!! I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.
Really!! I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.
That was my observation as well. Funny part is we only ever hear about how successful they are just after they make "the last stop before the graveyard" switch.
Then we hear how they are doing so well with nothing to back it up but crickets.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It's funny how conditioning can make people accept something as fact. 12 years ago the thought of paying a subscription fee for a game you already paid for was a very sour subject, so get ready to be re-conditioned because the subscription model is a thing of the past.
Some MUDs charged. Even NWN back on AOL was a P2P model. We're going back over 20 years ago...
As for the sub model being a thing of the past, well - I give you this:
How has celluar service evolved?
It would appear that MMO companies are going backwards, eh?
There is no universal business model. What works for FPL or Verizon isn't necessarily going to work for an MMO, VD.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.
Really!! I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.
In some cases, yes. In others, the plan to offer F2P or, more importantly, multiple payment options was there from the start.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Last time I checked most consoles essentially use a F2P model for FPS and RTS after the initial game purchase. Starcraft 2 is free to play once you paid once for the game. Its certainly not P2W. Sure these sort of games are a kind of middle ground but they demonstrate that a subscription is not a requirement for a quality game or quality player.
In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.
Really!! I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.
That was my observation as well. Funny part is we only ever hear about how successful they are just after they make "the last stop before the graveyard" switch.
Then we hear how they are doing so well with nothing to back it up but crickets.
On the other hand, if these games were near death months and years ago and have gotten a new, protracted lease on life, is there really a need to qualify or quantify the level of their success? For the publishers and fans, it's enough that the game is still around (and not Vanguardized).
My 2 cents on the whole F2P toxicity: the lower barrier of entry means a lot of people join these games not expecting to be true members of the community. What you have, in essence, are a bunch of Spring Breakers descending on an area, partying, then heading off to the next offering. Those players who choose to stay on are likely to be of a similar mindset and attitude to the folks paying a sub. I've seen no inherent difference between a person dropping $15 in the Item Shop for pots, mounts, content, and a VIP paying the same amount for broader access to the game.
So tired of people who think they know what they are talking about getting on these forums and tellimg me that F2P means P2W. It's completely false and It's soooo much better then the Sub only games. Okay here's what's wrong with the sub only games.
1: They design the game poorly so you have to spend extra whole months to get anything worth while, just to force you to keep your sub going as long as they possibly can. Case-in-point, World of Warcraft. If anyone disagrees then you've never played that game or have never reached end-game content.
As opposed to the entire game being a grind unless a person purchases exp boost items in the cash shop? I haven't played a P2W (F2P) that doesn't have similar game mechanic as WOW. The only difference is the P2W games give players the option of spending money to obtain the item faster.
2: The content patches including small improvement patchs are far and few between, everyone knows this. Why? because they mismanage their money on these games and cannot keep their devs. The exception to this rule is Rift, they have done a great job in churning out end-game content. The problem with Rift tho is they too have a recent history of it taking longer and longer and longer to churn out said content. It's only a matter of time before they will be forced by the economics of this model, to go F2P because then they will have the revenue to churn out content faster then with sub only. Same goes for SWTOR. It's only a matter of time.
There isn't any difference with P2W games. Every single game that I have played still only offers 1 or 2 patches a year. Unless you consider monthly additions to the cash shop that offer no added content.
3: The sub only material is more of the same usually, dailies, point grinds, replacement gear all designed to keep you in the game as long as possible. I was one of the many who realized just how bad World of Warcraft was about this when i started paying attention to other games. I realized that it shouldn't take 3 months to get geared for raiding and another 100 runs of the same raid to get raid level gear (10 man) only to have to start ALL over again doing the same things when the next expansion came out.
The only difference here is P2W games add another option in the cash shop that makes your old gear entirely worthless.
I'm sorry you sheeple disagree with the fact that the sub only market is flawed and thus dwindling, or that their age old model is dying because it is not economically sound or sustainable for long periods of time but these are the facts. And to spew the crap about F2P being P2W only strengthens everyone who DOES understand view of just how ignorant you are of the facts. Adapt and move on is my only suggestion. Meanwhile the rest of us who already have moved on will be enjoying ourselves on multiple games.
The design models of P2W games makes it impossible for them to be a superior product. Every game mechanic is designed to make sure that it can be monetized now or in the future. A player will never gain the full experience without directly or indirectly purchasing from the cash shop.
Turbine is the only company that knows how to do a conversion to f2p. All others ruin thier games with it, and even make others leave. CoH: Freedom is horrible, NCsoft wants you to buy content that you already bought if you are "Premium". I got 4 level 50 MM and a 42 troller that I can't access because I'm "Premium". Lotro I never had a problem with any of my characters, I have access to all of them, granted I have a lifetime sub, but even my friends who don't are able to access thier Wardens and Runekeepers after f2p since they bought the MoM when it came out...In CoH, if you bought CoV box, you wasted $50...It's just not right, and a game that I used to come back to every once in awhile to scratch that superhero itch, I won't be ever returning again after this BS. Instead of getting $15 every once in awhile from me, NCsoft now gets nothing. AoC at least lets you pick 2 of your characters you already had no matter what class they are. Although I hate the AoC shop, so won't be playing that either. I guess I'll just have to stick to playing Turbine games lol.
Even as a F2Per I dislike the former P2P turned F2P. They are even more restricted than regular F2P's, and quite honestly I feel they project F2P in an even worse light than regular F2P's ever could.
But in imo the only reason people who continue to sub to those games dislike the "riff-raff" F2Pers is just because subconciously they feel superior to them since they are paying, elitism at it's finest.
Of course there will be tons of people disagreeing with that, since the majority of people here seem to fit that "Pay-to-Play All-the-Way" bill and anything or anyone other than that is automatic trash.
The F2P conversion in Lotro has basically just meant that I only have to sub some of the time. And I can keep playing without worry when I'm not subbing. In the year since it went free, I was subbed for maybe seven of those months. I'm not subbed right now and doing fine. I think I'm going to do another month sometime in the future, but I'm sure that pretty soon months without subbing will exceed months subbed.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
Actually in a thread here somewhere advocating f2p as the greatest thing since sliced bread and saying why would anyone p2p.
One my main reasons personally is to avoid the riff-raff that f2p players so often are I should note that this does vary wildly though. I have met some really great people in f2p games and some f2p games have good communities. But some f2p games I have been in were beyond abyssmal community-wise.
It's an illusion that subscription models have level playing fields. Someone else always has more time to devote to gathering resources, pvping, pveing as well as a better computer or connection or guild and thus has advantages another player does not. What do I care if someone buys a potion that gives you greater experience? How does that harm me? What do you care if I buy a bell of opening to open a locked door or chest because I'm not playing a rogue, how does that harm you? I play solo and the dungeons are instanced. Worry more about the hackers and cheats.
#4)FTP = "Oh that one is really not free if you want to get into endgame, then its P2WIN and expensive."
Don't get me wrong, I like old games, I pay VIP for a month here or there for some I like.
It is a stopgap solution to me though, I'm just ready for something new. Nothing personal or any sort of attack or provocation !!! This is just how I see things.
Have a sense of humor, no need to get ALL MODDY ! A Simpson's quote shouldn't be worth a warning. You are lucky anyone is bothering to read this rag.
Item shop doesn't mean legalization of the gold traders. Many people had awful experiences with games like Runes of Magic and Allods Online, I understand that, but even in F2P games there are gold farmers. Why? Because the item mall, if well designed, will try to be as balanced as possible or else the game will become unplayable. I've been in true P2W games where quests were unimportant and the best gear was the item mall gear. And in the other hand I've been in games where the fluff factor is a big part of the immersion so people is compelled to buy fluff items, and the item mall has mostly fluff items and some armor/weapon no fail enhancements (Both games were created by the same game studio, by the way).
And in many F2P games I've played, the community is great, patient with newcomers, guilds are helpful.
I think it's funny that you draw a similarity between the F2P model and pay to win players, really pay to win is something separate from F2P because it's in P2P also. Gold buying is as rampent as ever and most companies do not do a whole lot about people buying it only really the people selling it.
Not to mention being someone who has done raiding in multiple games, any game where gold is nessasary there is usually a significant number of people in the end game circles who have bought gold and other crap. Usually they are pretty honest about it, especially since i admit it also. It's really a play time issue more than anything.
I'm seeing this rationalization coming up a lot lately; the whole "people were buying gold and items before, so it's really no different".
Actually.. it's very different.
1. Buying gold and/or items (characters, etc) MMORPGs was always prohibited because of the effect it could have on the game's economy, because of the dubious, even outright illegal activities involved in obtaining the gold (e.g. hacking/scamming players' accounts, stripping their characters, selling everything off for gold to sell off to another "player"), and the overall fact that paying your way through a game that's designed to be played through puts the "payers" at a clear advantage over the "players" in many situations.
2. Incidentally... I'm pretty sure it's still prohibited to buy and sell gold, items, etc. via secondary market RMT companies. That part hasn't changed - the developers/publishers still prohibit that activity. This fact alone makes it even funnier that people keep using the existence of illegal RMT as a justification for the existence of sanctioned RMT (aka Cash Shops).
The purchase or sale of gold/items/characters/etc via third-party RMT companies is still prohibited.
3. P2P MMO's are designed, from the ground up, to be played through. All content, challenges, goals and obstacles are achieved or overcome by playing the game. All items, gear and rewards are earned by playing the game.
Cash Shop/F2P MMOs are designed from the ground up to make the game as inconvenient, slow and tedious as possible in all the ways the developers know are important to players (xp rate, HP/MP consumption, travel, storage, etc). Those who spend very little or nothing at all are doing so in spite of the game's design... not because it's designed to be friendly to them.
I would much rather know that the money I spend on a MMORPG is spent on design and development of new interesting content to entertain, immerse and engage me in a P2P/Sub-based MMO, rather than it going to the research of new ways of "monetizing me" as a player by trying to get me to spend more in the cash shop.
@Mike B... I wonder if you could provide some information via your contacts in the F2P/Cash Shop scene. I wonder if you could get a few them of them to provide some information. I see you repeating the same PR I see most all F2P developers saying "Most people don't spend anything" and, as in every other case I've seen that statement made, it's never qualified with a break down of exactly who they're counting in that assessment.
How many people who "aren't paying a dime" to play a F2P/Cash Shop MMO are even actively playing at all? As we all know, an "active F2P MMO account" and an "actively played F2P MMO account" are two very different things. For example, I have "active accounts" for Perfect World, Forsaken World, Last Chaos, Shaiya, Runes of Magic and several other F2P MMOs. However, I haven't actively played any of them in months.. upwards of a few years in a couple cases.
So, while my account with any one of them could certainly be considered "active", it would be dishonest to include me in their figures since I'm not actively playing any of them. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that I - and others in the same category - are included anyway.
How many of those who are actually playing the game at all are playing at least as much as the average player does and aren't merely "weekend warriors" or "dabblers" who put in a couple hours here and there and, so, don't feel the "bite" as much as a more active player would?
How many of those playing are beyond the first 30-40 levels or so, when the real grind starts to rear its ugly head and the game is no longer throwing you freebie xp potions, HP/MP pots and other things... requiring you to buy them from the cash shop if you want to remain stocked while playing?
How many are still in that "freebie heaven" phase?
Until we see a breakdown of who they're counting as "members", who they include and what criteria they use to calculate their figures... something I've yet to see in any PR hype.... statements about "the majority not paying" doesn't really mean all that much.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't need numbers to tell me LOTRO has more population now with the free to play option. I can see it any time I log into the game. There are more players in-game at any moment than there were before free to play began. I'll believe my eyes over someone elses numbers.
I'll go even further and say I've see no significant degradation of the 'quality' of those individuals playing the game either.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
I don't need numbers to tell me LOTRO has more population now with the free to play option. I can see it any time I log into the game. There are more players in-game at any moment than there were before free to play began. I'll believe my eyes over someone elses numbers.
I'll go even further and say I've see no significant degradation of the 'quality' of those individuals playing the game either.
I guess it depends on the server, then. I see fewer people around overall than I saw when it was still P2P.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
some communities are going to worsen with free/mium and some aren't because some games are more suited to attract the kind of folks who well, to be frank, trash communities.
in LOTRO i hardly notice any difference in community once i get out of the beginning areas. why? because the game kind of lends itself to more mature folks. conversely in DDO i noticed a lot more snotty folks in stormreach and it made the game really seem a lot more F2p than LOTRO even though both games have the precise same model.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Well I was playing Lotro as P2P game , then I stayed for over half a year after change to Freemium model.
Initial rush of new players was not bad, not as bad as I was afraid. After this first month-two of player increase , in following months population stopped rising , and even declined a bit after. But well that's kinda normal , all new things get rushed.
So most new / free players were not bad, but over time game community changed imho. There were more players that were more into 'progress' , running instances ,etc than before , but hard to tell if that was caused by free players or Turbine caused it by changing Lotro itself by putting more emphasis on running instances, barter systems , etc than open world and community interaction than before.
Instant teleportation to instances was one of that changes Turbine incorporated.
Store was obviously second thing that impacted community alot , "everybody" started talking about shop , Turbine Points, about items avabile in shop, most attention getting were all 'advantage' items , such as stat tomes , store-only relics, etc - well they were bestsellers frequently so nothing suprising.
So imho changes that are made to most F2P games , so cash shop sell items , and impact cash shop has on game also FORMS and CHANGE community.
So I think we put too much emphasis on how free players change community and not enough emphasis on how big impact on community and people behaviour has ITEM SHOP itself.
I disliked it , I've really tried to continue to play Lotro, I had really best guild and people I've met in any mmorpg , I loved middle-earth world and great sceneries and immersion Turbine created in Lotro, but then Turbine , changed their game , new open world regions started to be 'less polished' and look very generic.
Biggest impact item shop had, I really tried to live with it, but just knowing that there is direct link between game items and $ , through item store , slowly killed immersion for me.
I realized that just cash shop EXISTENCE is bothering me alot. Unfortunatelly this is what industry is going into , so if I will be able to find a game that is p2p and has MAX. like 5 very vanity items for cash , and game will be interesting I will stll play mmorpg's.
When I won't be able to find game like that anymore , I will sadly have to stop playing mmorpg's.
I've tried few freemium games and few f2p games , but ultimatelly I cannot stand them.
There are some p2p games that have or plan to put quite big cash shops into them , and I loathe that kind of business model (it is even worse that f2p) , so that limits me even more.
I am not playing anything atm. Just waiting for new games. Sadly Swtor is not type of game I want to play , even though it's business model I like
So concluding , I don't think 'free players' themself are a problem , well at least most of them. Sure there is maybe bigger % of whiners and idiots in f2p games , but I think biggest diffrence is becasue business model itself and impact it have on people and game itself , than because 'free players' are worse or something.
Fin
Because there are almost no actual FTP games. The majority of them are P2W. People are attempting to define P2W as something other than it is.
Is there content you cannot do without buying it - then it is not realy F2P. Does that content offer better gear, better experience, etc? So you...P2W.
Can you buy health pots? What? How can a health pot be a P2W item? Well, does the person that can buy more of them have an advantage over the person that cannot?
Are you able to buy an advantage? You're paying to win.
Are you buying some fluff costume piece that offers no advantage? Well, then you're just making a RMT.
Some people want to say that most of it is Paying for "Convenience" rather than Paying to Win... how convenient of them.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think that is the bigger issue for many people, including myself. Games are going to have people we'd rather were not playing whether the game is P2P, B2P, FTP, ~FTP, P2W, etc, etc, etc.
It is how the game changes as those Item Shops become the focus of the game.
It is laughable in a sense, thinking about how some people play MMORPGs for immersion...and tada, there is a big ol' store icon on the GUI. Imagine how different it might be, even if the Item Shops were outside of the game itself. If it were like how it was previously with CoX - you could go to the site to buy the various booster packs. Separation of store and game.
But the focus is on the Item Shop and generating revenue... so'oh well.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
So tired of people who think they know what they are talking about getting on these forums and tellimg me that F2P means P2W. It's completely false and It's soooo much better then the Sub only games. Okay here's what's wrong with the sub only games.
1: They design the game poorly so you have to spend extra whole months to get anything worth while, just to force you to keep your sub going as long as they possibly can. Case-in-point, World of Warcraft. If anyone disagrees then you've never played that game or have never reached end-game content.
2: The content patches including small improvement patchs are far and few between, everyone knows this. Why? because they mismanage their money on these games and cannot keep their devs. The exception to this rule is Rift, they have done a great job in churning out end-game content. The problem with Rift tho is they too have a recent history of it taking longer and longer and longer to churn out said content. It's only a matter of time before they will be forced by the economics of this model, to go F2P because then they will have the revenue to churn out content faster then with sub only. Same goes for SWTOR. It's only a matter of time.
3: The sub only material is more of the same usually, dailies, point grinds, replacement gear all designed to keep you in the game as long as possible. I was one of the many who realized just how bad World of Warcraft was about this when i started paying attention to other games. I realized that it shouldn't take 3 months to get geared for raiding and another 100 runs of the same raid to get raid level gear (10 man) only to have to start ALL over again doing the same things when the next expansion came out.
I'm sorry you sheeple disagree with the fact that the sub only market is flawed and thus dwindling, or that their age old model is dying because it is not economically sound or sustainable for long periods of time but these are the facts. And to spew the crap about F2P being P2W only strengthens everyone who DOES understand view of just how ignorant you are of the facts. Adapt and move on is my only suggestion. Meanwhile the rest of us who already have moved on will be enjoying ourselves on multiple games.
In order to get the Western MMO gamers to begin to accept the free-to-play model, developers and publishers are slowly weaning them off of subscriptions by offering hybrid free-to-play/subscription models for new and existing games alike, beginning with Turbine’s Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited and more recently with City of Heroes: Freedom.
Really!! I thought it was because the games were so bad they had to go F2P or else fold up shop.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
BR?
That was my observation as well. Funny part is we only ever hear about how successful they are just after they make "the last stop before the graveyard" switch.
Then we hear how they are doing so well with nothing to back it up but crickets.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
There is no universal business model. What works for FPL or Verizon isn't necessarily going to work for an MMO, VD.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In some cases, yes. In others, the plan to offer F2P or, more importantly, multiple payment options was there from the start.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I still say that if UO hadn't used a sub model, these pointless conversations wouldn't even exist.
Well, except everyone would be throwing a fit when a new game tries to do something different by charging a sub.
I think someone mentioned conditioning earlier........
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
On the other hand, if these games were near death months and years ago and have gotten a new, protracted lease on life, is there really a need to qualify or quantify the level of their success? For the publishers and fans, it's enough that the game is still around (and not Vanguardized).
My 2 cents on the whole F2P toxicity: the lower barrier of entry means a lot of people join these games not expecting to be true members of the community. What you have, in essence, are a bunch of Spring Breakers descending on an area, partying, then heading off to the next offering. Those players who choose to stay on are likely to be of a similar mindset and attitude to the folks paying a sub. I've seen no inherent difference between a person dropping $15 in the Item Shop for pots, mounts, content, and a VIP paying the same amount for broader access to the game.
The design models of P2W games makes it impossible for them to be a superior product. Every game mechanic is designed to make sure that it can be monetized now or in the future. A player will never gain the full experience without directly or indirectly purchasing from the cash shop.
I guess that Im the devil's advocate too then, because I completely agree with this article.
Turbine is the only company that knows how to do a conversion to f2p. All others ruin thier games with it, and even make others leave. CoH: Freedom is horrible, NCsoft wants you to buy content that you already bought if you are "Premium". I got 4 level 50 MM and a 42 troller that I can't access because I'm "Premium". Lotro I never had a problem with any of my characters, I have access to all of them, granted I have a lifetime sub, but even my friends who don't are able to access thier Wardens and Runekeepers after f2p since they bought the MoM when it came out...In CoH, if you bought CoV box, you wasted $50...It's just not right, and a game that I used to come back to every once in awhile to scratch that superhero itch, I won't be ever returning again after this BS. Instead of getting $15 every once in awhile from me, NCsoft now gets nothing. AoC at least lets you pick 2 of your characters you already had no matter what class they are. Although I hate the AoC shop, so won't be playing that either. I guess I'll just have to stick to playing Turbine games lol.
Even as a F2Per I dislike the former P2P turned F2P. They are even more restricted than regular F2P's, and quite honestly I feel they project F2P in an even worse light than regular F2P's ever could.
But in imo the only reason people who continue to sub to those games dislike the "riff-raff" F2Pers is just because subconciously they feel superior to them since they are paying, elitism at it's finest.
Of course there will be tons of people disagreeing with that, since the majority of people here seem to fit that "Pay-to-Play All-the-Way" bill and anything or anyone other than that is automatic trash.
The F2P conversion in Lotro has basically just meant that I only have to sub some of the time. And I can keep playing without worry when I'm not subbing. In the year since it went free, I was subbed for maybe seven of those months. I'm not subbed right now and doing fine. I think I'm going to do another month sometime in the future, but I'm sure that pretty soon months without subbing will exceed months subbed.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Actually in a thread here somewhere advocating f2p as the greatest thing since sliced bread and saying why would anyone p2p.
One my main reasons personally is to avoid the riff-raff that f2p players so often are
I should note that this does vary wildly though. I have met some really great people in f2p games and some f2p games have good communities. But some f2p games I have been in were beyond abyssmal community-wise.
#1) FTP = "Oh, that old game."
#2) FTP = "Oh, that cheap import."
#3) FTP = "Oh, that indie game?"
#4)FTP = "Oh that one is really not free if you want to get into endgame, then its P2WIN and expensive."
Don't get me wrong, I like old games, I pay VIP for a month here or there for some I like.
It is a stopgap solution to me though, I'm just ready for something new. Nothing personal or any sort of attack or provocation !!! This is just how I see things.
Have a sense of humor, no need to get ALL MODDY !
A Simpson's quote shouldn't be worth a warning. You are lucky anyone is bothering to read this rag.
Item shop doesn't mean legalization of the gold traders. Many people had awful experiences with games like Runes of Magic and Allods Online, I understand that, but even in F2P games there are gold farmers. Why? Because the item mall, if well designed, will try to be as balanced as possible or else the game will become unplayable. I've been in true P2W games where quests were unimportant and the best gear was the item mall gear. And in the other hand I've been in games where the fluff factor is a big part of the immersion so people is compelled to buy fluff items, and the item mall has mostly fluff items and some armor/weapon no fail enhancements (Both games were created by the same game studio, by the way).
And in many F2P games I've played, the community is great, patient with newcomers, guilds are helpful.
I'm seeing this rationalization coming up a lot lately; the whole "people were buying gold and items before, so it's really no different".
Actually.. it's very different.
1. Buying gold and/or items (characters, etc) MMORPGs was always prohibited because of the effect it could have on the game's economy, because of the dubious, even outright illegal activities involved in obtaining the gold (e.g. hacking/scamming players' accounts, stripping their characters, selling everything off for gold to sell off to another "player"), and the overall fact that paying your way through a game that's designed to be played through puts the "payers" at a clear advantage over the "players" in many situations.
2. Incidentally... I'm pretty sure it's still prohibited to buy and sell gold, items, etc. via secondary market RMT companies. That part hasn't changed - the developers/publishers still prohibit that activity. This fact alone makes it even funnier that people keep using the existence of illegal RMT as a justification for the existence of sanctioned RMT (aka Cash Shops).
The purchase or sale of gold/items/characters/etc via third-party RMT companies is still prohibited.
3. P2P MMO's are designed, from the ground up, to be played through. All content, challenges, goals and obstacles are achieved or overcome by playing the game. All items, gear and rewards are earned by playing the game.
Cash Shop/F2P MMOs are designed from the ground up to make the game as inconvenient, slow and tedious as possible in all the ways the developers know are important to players (xp rate, HP/MP consumption, travel, storage, etc). Those who spend very little or nothing at all are doing so in spite of the game's design... not because it's designed to be friendly to them.
I would much rather know that the money I spend on a MMORPG is spent on design and development of new interesting content to entertain, immerse and engage me in a P2P/Sub-based MMO, rather than it going to the research of new ways of "monetizing me" as a player by trying to get me to spend more in the cash shop.
@Mike B... I wonder if you could provide some information via your contacts in the F2P/Cash Shop scene. I wonder if you could get a few them of them to provide some information. I see you repeating the same PR I see most all F2P developers saying "Most people don't spend anything" and, as in every other case I've seen that statement made, it's never qualified with a break down of exactly who they're counting in that assessment.
How many people who "aren't paying a dime" to play a F2P/Cash Shop MMO are even actively playing at all? As we all know, an "active F2P MMO account" and an "actively played F2P MMO account" are two very different things. For example, I have "active accounts" for Perfect World, Forsaken World, Last Chaos, Shaiya, Runes of Magic and several other F2P MMOs. However, I haven't actively played any of them in months.. upwards of a few years in a couple cases.
So, while my account with any one of them could certainly be considered "active", it would be dishonest to include me in their figures since I'm not actively playing any of them. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that I - and others in the same category - are included anyway.
How many of those who are actually playing the game at all are playing at least as much as the average player does and aren't merely "weekend warriors" or "dabblers" who put in a couple hours here and there and, so, don't feel the "bite" as much as a more active player would?
How many of those playing are beyond the first 30-40 levels or so, when the real grind starts to rear its ugly head and the game is no longer throwing you freebie xp potions, HP/MP pots and other things... requiring you to buy them from the cash shop if you want to remain stocked while playing?
How many are still in that "freebie heaven" phase?
Until we see a breakdown of who they're counting as "members", who they include and what criteria they use to calculate their figures... something I've yet to see in any PR hype.... statements about "the majority not paying" doesn't really mean all that much.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't need numbers to tell me LOTRO has more population now with the free to play option. I can see it any time I log into the game. There are more players in-game at any moment than there were before free to play began. I'll believe my eyes over someone elses numbers.
I'll go even further and say I've see no significant degradation of the 'quality' of those individuals playing the game either.
I guess it depends on the server, then. I see fewer people around overall than I saw when it was still P2P.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops