They're boring at the top because there's no content for solo players once you get there.
The devs should be thankful there are solo players out there who are willing to take their time during the levelling process, otherwise they'd have less subscriptions to draw from.
Raiders should be thankful for the subsidy.
What games are you playing that have no content for solo players at max level? Every MMO I have ever played has more content for the pure soloist than anything else. Crafting, harvesting, dailies, story-line quests...all solo activities. You're typical MMO might have 5 to 10 group oriented dungeons per expansion but the soloer will have hundreds if not thousands of quests. So far Cataclysm has produced an outrageous 7 new five-man dungeons and 5 new raid dungeons.
Quests, crafting, gathering, and dailies are for everyone, and yield gear that is ineffective against high level mobs, when compared against what can be acquired in the simplest of raids. In seven years WoW has yet to introduce a single solo dungeon, that's an extremely poor return for soloists when you consider the hundreds of millions they've lined Blizzards pockets with.
i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best.
You are kidding right? WoW did it best? Have you played Cata? sheesh /facepalm
The only thing WoW catered to and has always catered to is the Raid only crowd. Everyone is forced to get gear from doing grouped heroics to build up a set that can withstand going into a raid and not dying instantly. The crafting has NOTHING for you, here it is six months from the time i left and they have yet to add any purples that one can craft without having BEEN in a raid ALREADY.
The only mmo i've seen that has done anything to improve gameplay for all styles has been LOTRO they have an epic storyline that is challenging but not impossible to do alone that offers decent gear that you can use for raiding if you like but you don't have to. They have legendaries that one can craft if you like eliminating the need to go raid to get anything decent and their weapons are customizable down to the last legacy.
The only thing WoW did was force players to spend extra time doing everything, want some gear spend extra time, want rep spend extra time. When i left WoW and played other games i realized just how much of the players time they wasted doing anything. This is why today i hate sub only games because these devs are doing the exact same lame thing on every sub only game. "Let's delay releases on content and ui enhancements until we see our subs drop so that we can keep them coming back for the tiny tidbit they see in other games for free" or "Even though we are making millions let's make it take an entire three months for players to aquire anything worth while in game so we can continue raking in the dough and not producing content other then Dailies to keep the player's interest"
Got one word for that model, and it's FAIL. plain and simple. My eyes were opened the moment i left World of Warcraft and played other games sub and nonsub. What's sad is they are still doing it to people and people will still spend money on that fail model even though they are being taken by Blizzard. Sickens me.
They're boring at the top because there's no content for solo players once you get there.
The devs should be thankful there are solo players out there who are willing to take their time during the levelling process, otherwise they'd have less subscriptions to draw from.
Raiders should be thankful for the subsidy.
What games are you playing that have no content for solo players at max level? Every MMO I have ever played has more content for the pure soloist than anything else. Crafting, harvesting, dailies, story-line quests...all solo activities. You're typical MMO might have 5 to 10 group oriented dungeons per expansion but the soloer will have hundreds if not thousands of quests. So far Cataclysm has produced an outrageous 7 new five-man dungeons and 5 new raid dungeons.
Have you played Cata? Its the same old model day in day out, 5 man dungeons and raids. That's called group only content. Crafting, harvesting, dailes, story-line quests are solo activites but yield nothing for the player to handle elite end game mobs. Here's a run down on WoW gathered from WoWhead (which i followed to keep up with what the game is still doing to this day) and info from friends who still play.
Crafting, it's been six months and three patches since i played and the only purple gear one can make that is worth it is from using orbs only obtainable from being in a raid already.
Harvesting, although it's streamlined there are still areas of the game never fixed like getting the ore from the first expansion called Burning crusade for engineers to make their flying machine is almost impossible. One has to go into a heroic to see if any is there and they have lockouts to keep you from repeatedly going into heroics to do this. Not to mention making something with this harvested materials falls back on their failed crafting.
Story-line quests: The only storyline quests they have are when they add something which is far and few between patches. They offer nothing in the way of good gear often giving you junk to vendor. They definitely are not game changing in any real sense only putting you into the same phaze so you can see others who have completed those said areas.
So essentially they are only giving you a carrot on a stick long enough to keep you going on their game. It's why i will never pay for another sub only game in my future.
The biggest insult to me was them finally adding cosmetics only after they lost 1mil subs in a 1 month time period.
They're boring at the top because there's no content for solo players once you get there.
The devs should be thankful there are solo players out there who are willing to take their time during the levelling process, otherwise they'd have less subscriptions to draw from.
Raiders should be thankful for the subsidy.
What games are you playing that have no content for solo players at max level? Every MMO I have ever played has more content for the pure soloist than anything else. Crafting, harvesting, dailies, story-line quests...all solo activities. You're typical MMO might have 5 to 10 group oriented dungeons per expansion but the soloer will have hundreds if not thousands of quests. So far Cataclysm has produced an outrageous 7 new five-man dungeons and 5 new raid dungeons.
Have you played Cata? Its the same old model day in day out, 5 man dungeons and raids. That's called group only content. Crafting, harvesting, dailes, story-line quests are solo activites but yield nothing for the player to handle elite end game mobs. Here's a run down on WoW gathered from WoWhead (which i followed to keep up with what the game is still doing to this day) and info from friends who still play.
Crafting, it's been six months and three patches since i played and the only purple gear one can make that is worth it is from using orbs only obtainable from being in a raid already.
Harvesting, although it's streamlined there are still areas of the game never fixed like getting the ore from the first expansion called Burning crusade for engineers to make their flying machine is almost impossible. One has to go into a heroic to see if any is there and they have lockouts to keep you from repeatedly going into heroics to do this. Not to mention making something with this harvested materials falls back on their failed crafting.
Story-line quests: The only storyline quests they have are when they add something which is far and few between patches. They offer nothing in the way of good gear often giving you junk to vendor. They definitely are not game changing in any real sense only putting you into the same phaze so you can see others who have completed those said areas.
So essentially they are only giving you a carrot on a stick long enough to keep you going on their game. It's why i will never pay for another sub only game in my future.
The biggest insult to me was them finally adding cosmetics only after they lost 1mil subs in a 1 month time period.
While much of whayt you say is true, you need to get certain facts straight. The newer ilvl 365 craftables require orbs from heroics, not raids only. Secondly, they didn't lose 1 mill subs in a month, it has been over the past two quarters this year, and officially it's 900k subs (although proably close to a million at this point). If we're going to have a discussion, then we need to make sure we are being honest.
Back to the topic at hand:
Blizzard is especially guilty of what I would even consider bait and switch tactics. The first 84 levels of the game are mostly a solo endeavor, but as soon as you reach 85 your progress is mostly tied to others. You cannot craft many items without chaos orbs, which drop from 5 man heroic content, and at that point it's only a chance you will receive one, so crafting isn't solo content. You can finish all of the quests in the zones, but it doesn't net you any reward aside from the gold you obtain, and of course viewing the content. However, once that is done once or twice, it's no longer fresh content, and doesn't really count as endgame solo content. Exploration only lasts so long before you complete it, same with daily quests. You reach a point where you have completed the daily quests, and they become a grind.
Bottom line is that there isn't a way to meaningful progress your character outside of group content. Also, due to the nature of how content works in WoW, unless you can devote large periods of time to the game, you won't be able to progress extremely far with multiple characters, but rather you need to select 1-3 (depending on how much time you have) characters to progress and play with for the entire expansion to "keep up with the joneses".
Don't get me wrong, I love group content in mmos, especially when it's designed well. However, during the times where I am playing in the off-peak hours, or just want to run around on one of my characters by myself, the options are extremely limited for what I can do. I don't want to always have to play a solo game, because there are times I want to socialize in game chat, but run around doing content solo. Considering I am paying to access the game, there should be options to better serve all of their customers.
They're boring at the top because there's no content for solo players once you get there.
The devs should be thankful there are solo players out there who are willing to take their time during the levelling process, otherwise they'd have less subscriptions to draw from.
Raiders should be thankful for the subsidy.
What games are you playing that have no content for solo players at max level? Every MMO I have ever played has more content for the pure soloist than anything else. Crafting, harvesting, dailies, story-line quests...all solo activities. You're typical MMO might have 5 to 10 group oriented dungeons per expansion but the soloer will have hundreds if not thousands of quests. So far Cataclysm has produced an outrageous 7 new five-man dungeons and 5 new raid dungeons.
Quests, crafting, gathering, and dailies are for everyone, and yield gear that is ineffective against high level mobs, when compared against what can be acquired in the simplest of raids. In seven years WoW has yet to introduce a single solo dungeon, that's an extremely poor return for soloists when you consider the hundreds of millions they've lined Blizzards pockets with.
Very few games have actual group quests anymore so questing has pretty much turned into a solo activity. Vanguard is the only game I know that has group gathering so for most games crafting and harvesting are purely solo activities.
But a lack of solo content does not seem to be your real problem. Your first post said there was no solo content at the top level, but it appears you meant no solo content that rewards you with group or raid gear. You are correct there, but I think most rational people understand that soloing, grouping and raiding are all different activities with differing difficulties therefore, they have different rewards.
As much as I would like to see solo dungeons, I do not see any game company willing to invest the time or money needed to do it properly. You would have to completely rebalance each class and spec to be equal solo.
Have you played Cata? Its the same old model day in day out, 5 man dungeons and raids. That's called group only content. Crafting, harvesting, dailes, story-line quests are solo activites but yield nothing for the player to handle elite end game mobs. Here's a run down on WoW gathered from WoWhead (which i followed to keep up with what the game is still doing to this day) and info from friends who still play.
Why do you feel the need to solo elite mobs? A mob that is designed for group encounters should not be soloable.
Have you played Cata? Its the same old model day in day out, 5 man dungeons and raids. That's called group only content. Crafting, harvesting, dailes, story-line quests are solo activites but yield nothing for the player to handle elite end game mobs. Here's a run down on WoW gathered from WoWhead (which i followed to keep up with what the game is still doing to this day) and info from friends who still play.
Why do you feel the need to solo elite mobs? A mob that is designed for group encounters should not be soloable.
Those elite mobs are the next level of challenge, once you've gone through everything else. If those mobs are designed specifically for group encounters (which is debatable, since you can engage them solo), then they should also design mobs specifically for solo encounters.
All playstyles should have viable paths of progression at end game. Solo players do not have that at this point.
If a mob I can't solo doesn't drop anything I want or need that I can't get from other mobs or from crafting then I don't care if I can solo it or not. You team players can have it. I'll go kill something else. But if I do want or need something off that mob then I want to be able to solo it within the level range I need or want the item at.
When it comes to game mechanics like elite mobs and instances with specific item drops, it isn't about soloing for the experience, it's about getting whatever you want or need out of an encounter. If I can't kill it by myself, then let me craft it by myself and you can keep your respawns and your repeatable instances. I'm incredibly bored of getting loot that way anyway.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I guess it's just my play style, or it could be my first games. The first games I played were PC games such as Morrowind, Oblivion, etc. Soloing just caters better to my play-style. That's not to say im completely against grouping, its just I have more fun soloing and figuring the game out myself.
Early years(AC-AC2-L2) i grouped alot but slowly i change and it seems alot other mmo players change also and i did not like grouping or joining a clan anymore and starting to solo sind last 5 years i solo with occasional joining a clan for group play.
But i still love solo alot i also play alot solo rpg's maybe that also influence my gaming behavior in multiplayer games?
If a mob I can't solo doesn't drop anything I want or need that I can't get from other mobs or from crafting then I don't care if I can solo it or not. You team players can have it. I'll go kill something else. But if I do want or need something off that mob then I want to be able to solo it within the level range I need or want the item at.
When it comes to game mechanics like elite mobs and instances with specific item drops, it isn't about soloing for the experience, it's about getting whatever you want or need out of an encounter. If I can't kill it by myself, then let me craft it by myself and you can keep your respawns and your repeatable instances. I'm incredibly bored of getting loot that way anyway.
It sounds like you are saying that it's more about the loot than the game experience. If a mob doesn't drop anything you want, but is a good challenge to solo, wouldn't you want to try it anyway?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
If a mob I can't solo doesn't drop anything I want or need that I can't get from other mobs or from crafting then I don't care if I can solo it or not. You team players can have it. I'll go kill something else. But if I do want or need something off that mob then I want to be able to solo it within the level range I need or want the item at.
When it comes to game mechanics like elite mobs and instances with specific item drops, it isn't about soloing for the experience, it's about getting whatever you want or need out of an encounter. If I can't kill it by myself, then let me craft it by myself and you can keep your respawns and your repeatable instances. I'm incredibly bored of getting loot that way anyway.
It sounds like you are saying that it's more about the loot than the game experience. If a mob doesn't drop anything you want, but is a good challenge to solo, wouldn't you want to try it anyway?
Sure, but I'm thinking of the ones we usually end up killing over and over again for that piece of gear that, for example, makes a player better than a one hit kill in pvp. Games haven't left those mobs out so far, I don't figure they're going to start now. I don't even mind farming a specific mob once in awhile for a specific piece of gear, because I have my OCD farming moods, but when the whole game is about that, I get annoyed, and I get really annoyed (often to the point of just uninstalling) when I have to group up for gear I need to pvp or pve the most effectively (i.e., gear I need to get to further my enjoyment of what I want to do).
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
A good game will however, offer the players the CHOICE between Solo and Group.
Group will reward with 'more stuff' (XP, Loot, Gold w/e) because grouping takes more effort than solo.
What the playerbase does after that is up to the playerbase.
There is zero reason for grouping to award exclusive stuff, however. More stuff per run or a faster run through an area once you set up a good group (which comes down to the same thing) is fine, however. It's the exclusion of soloers from a certain tier of necessary gear that I have a problem with, not rewarding the time and effort spent making up a group in the first place.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
There is zero reason for grouping to award exclusive stuff, however. More stuff per run or a faster run through an area once you set up a good group (which comes down to the same thing) is fine, however.
I like that... more people, more stuff - not more people, better stuff.
A good game will however, offer the players the CHOICE between Solo and Group.
Group will reward with 'more stuff' (XP, Loot, Gold w/e) because grouping takes more effort than solo.
What the playerbase does after that is up to the playerbase.
There is zero reason for grouping to award exclusive stuff, however. More stuff per run or a faster run through an area once you set up a good group (which comes down to the same thing) is fine, however. It's the exclusion of soloers from a certain tier of necessary gear that I have a problem with, not rewarding the time and effort spent making up a group in the first place.
Where do you draw the line though? Eventually players will want the runs to be just as fast with even a poor group. Then they will want the runs to be just as fast if you are solo. I don't think groupers are necesarily arguing for exluding solo gameplay, they seem to be simply trying not to become excluded themselves. If everyone is soloing, it becomes very hard to find groups, in my experience.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well if i look back on my mmo gaming experience the best grouping was had back in 2001+ in everquest, was great spending hours in a group grinding in "the overthere" or Dreadlands having people lining up to join a group that had some spot free.
This was great and back then everquest was soloable but for some classes like clerics it was very slow so pretty much grouping enforced, problem for the clerics was in later years the healing from druids/shamans was good enough for most grind content, meaning clercis where forced to join raids since there healing was needed but after the raid they where not needed for regular grind, this lead to burnout en masse.
Everquest today with out of combat regen and some dd procs even for clerics have made the game a lot more solo friendly, but when i play solo there is a crap load of content i never see, hell not sure i could solo some parts of the old Luclin end raid zone Vex'Thal with my lvl 67 main.
Another game i find rather good for both solo/grouping is Anarchy online, with the mission you can pull from terminals you always have solo content that you can alter to your own playstyle.
The biggest difference though is the mindset of people today, sure i played 2700 hours of wow and the community is garbage to say the least, no wonder people prefer to solo, i find it damn boring to spend time in a group that only care about being 100% efficient even on simple stuff, for you that played eq back in the day people had fun in groups and there was a lot of chatting going on, now you can join a group and get a "hi" maybe, then silence for 20 minutes until you see "bye" sucks donkey balls part of the fun when grouping for me is having a lively chat going on without it what is the point?
There are grouping "semi forced" games out today, to name 2 ffxi and vanguard, sure you can solo in vanguard but it is slow and i tried doing some group quest on my lvl 10 sorcerer that was marked as lvl 8 and got owned fast not sure on ffxi but vanguard has a very small community, think i seen 1 other player in 7 hours playing, but still the game is fun and good looking, and the crafting is very good.
Biggest problem for me with the final fantasy games is the fecked up ui and controls, if i like to use a hand controller i play on a console not a pc.
And it has been mentioned but Age of conan has a lot of solo/group content which i think is nice, for me though in the end the fact that i like to play many characters and like to change at lot soloing is the better option, i don't mind that i never see the end game stuff on my characters i still have fun, if people like to join raids for 6 hours a night fine with me
Where do you draw the line though? Eventually players will want the runs to be just as fast with even a poor group. Then they will want the runs to be just as fast if you are solo. I don't think groupers are necesarily arguing for exluding solo gameplay, they seem to be simply trying not to become excluded themselves. If everyone is soloing, it becomes very hard to find groups, in my experience.
That's really the problem though, you don't have people grouping because they like to group, but because they get extra rewards. People usually solo because that's what they enjoy doing, not because they get any bonuses for doing it. So many groupers, though, only group because they want extra and exclusive crap, they don't care about being in a group, just benefiting from being in a group.
People who enjoy grouping for the sake of grouping wouldn't give a damn about extra rewards, they'd do it just because they enjoyed grouping and there would be no problem finding people to group with.
That's really the problem though, you don't have people grouping because they like to group, but because they get extra rewards. People usually solo because that's what they enjoy doing, not because they get any bonuses for doing it. So many groupers, though, only group because they want extra and exclusive crap, they don't care about being in a group, just benefiting from being in a group.
People who enjoy grouping for the sake of grouping wouldn't give a damn about extra rewards, they'd do it just because they enjoyed grouping and there would be no problem finding people to group with.
Do you ask five people to help you lift an empty box?
Do you ask three people to play white in a game of chess?
Do you play three DVD's at the same time and try and watch them all?
Your mind tells you to lift the box on your own, to ask one person to play as white, to watch one DVD instead of all at once. It's logical thinking, common sense. The same applies to MMO's. If the game is built in such a way that you can do everything solo, then by all logic and sense you go through that content solo. You CAN group, in the same sense that you CAN ask five people to help you lift an empty box. Your mind just naturally tells you to do it alone.
And so if there isn't content for groups to do, then people will continue playing the game as it's given to them. Rewards for group content are generally better because of the increased difficulty. You don't pay people a minimum wage for doing a tougher job - well, my boss does but he's an <censored>.
All you're doing is proving that most people really don't like to group, they need to be pushed into it, bribed or penalized for not doing it. Otherwise, people just don't group for the pure enjoyment of grouping.
All you're doing is proving that most people really don't like to group, they need to be pushed into it, bribed or penalized for not doing it. Otherwise, people just don't group for the pure enjoyment of grouping.
People perform the tasks that have been given to them in the most logical way they can. It's not a case of like or dislike, it's about playing the game in the way it's been designed to be played. Much like a Racing game has you go around the track a number of times, you wouldn't go the wrong way around that track because it's a) not going to win the game and b) it's going against game design. Though it might be a laugh one or twice.
Same principle with MMO's. If the game has been designed in a way where you can solo the entire time, people aren't going to group up 'because they can', they'll do what the game is asking them to do. To group in a solo environment is like going backwards around that racing track. It makes no logical sense to group up when the game is telling you to 'go over there and hand this message to JohnnyNPC_1'.
Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.
Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.
MMORPG just means its a role playing game with alot of people online at the same time, people just like to amend the definition.
Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.
MMORPG just means its a role playing game with alot of people online at the same time, people just like to amend the definition.
Really? And where did this definition come from, exactly? Let's take a look at what Wikipedia has to say:
MMOGs
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world.
MMORPGs
Massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of role-playing video games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world.
I see cooperate, compete, interact, but nowhere do I see mention of people who just happen to be on the same server, not needing to do any of those activities. So what about single player? Modern MMO's are catering massively to solo play, so what does wikipedia have to say about single player games:
Single Player Games
A single-player video game is a video game where input from only one player is expected throughout the course of the gaming session. The major selling points of larger single-player games are interesting storylines, impressive graphics, and realistic non-player characters and opponents. Selling points of the smaller games are low learning curve and availability (many are free to play on various sites).
Modern MMO's require input from only one player through most of the game, has started to include interesting storylines such as the upcoming Old Republic, the graphics are getting better, though the opponents still fall short. They also have a low learning curve and are becoming free to play almost everywhere.
Hmm.. So what does that tell us? It tells us what a lot of the pro-groupers have said in this thread. That MMO's are slowly becoming Massively Single Player games, that interaction and cooperation is almost completely gone, and that the worlds we used to know and love are following single player game development ideas and becoming personal storylines and low difficulty.
To remove grouping, to increase the amount of soloing, and to give solo options to end game just brings MMORPGs closer and closer to single player games. MMORPGs are dying. To be pro-solo is to be pro the death of a genre.
I see cooperate, compete, interact, but nowhere do I see mention of people who just happen to be on the same server, not needing to do any of those activities.
Interacting with other people can happen in many different levels, I could solo the entire game, trade an item to another and it would be considered interaction. Grouping is not directly implied in the definition no matter how we break it down.
Claiming that pro-solo'ers is going to kill the genre is irrational and over emotional. Your clarity on the matter is compromised and more compared to a dispute in a kindergarten class that claims another has stolen a toy. A playstyle can not be blamed for changes in the games you enjoy or how this genre progresses.
The MMO genre has to expand, they can not keep using the same game model and expect to survive. I hope that you find a good gaming experience in the future that satisfies your tastes but until then you're stuck like us waiting around for something to come by and give that feeling we had when we first stepped into the world of mmos.
Comments
Quests, crafting, gathering, and dailies are for everyone, and yield gear that is ineffective against high level mobs, when compared against what can be acquired in the simplest of raids. In seven years WoW has yet to introduce a single solo dungeon, that's an extremely poor return for soloists when you consider the hundreds of millions they've lined Blizzards pockets with.
You are kidding right? WoW did it best? Have you played Cata? sheesh /facepalm
The only thing WoW catered to and has always catered to is the Raid only crowd. Everyone is forced to get gear from doing grouped heroics to build up a set that can withstand going into a raid and not dying instantly. The crafting has NOTHING for you, here it is six months from the time i left and they have yet to add any purples that one can craft without having BEEN in a raid ALREADY.
The only mmo i've seen that has done anything to improve gameplay for all styles has been LOTRO they have an epic storyline that is challenging but not impossible to do alone that offers decent gear that you can use for raiding if you like but you don't have to. They have legendaries that one can craft if you like eliminating the need to go raid to get anything decent and their weapons are customizable down to the last legacy.
The only thing WoW did was force players to spend extra time doing everything, want some gear spend extra time, want rep spend extra time. When i left WoW and played other games i realized just how much of the players time they wasted doing anything. This is why today i hate sub only games because these devs are doing the exact same lame thing on every sub only game. "Let's delay releases on content and ui enhancements until we see our subs drop so that we can keep them coming back for the tiny tidbit they see in other games for free" or "Even though we are making millions let's make it take an entire three months for players to aquire anything worth while in game so we can continue raking in the dough and not producing content other then Dailies to keep the player's interest"
Got one word for that model, and it's FAIL. plain and simple. My eyes were opened the moment i left World of Warcraft and played other games sub and nonsub. What's sad is they are still doing it to people and people will still spend money on that fail model even though they are being taken by Blizzard. Sickens me.
Have you played Cata? Its the same old model day in day out, 5 man dungeons and raids. That's called group only content. Crafting, harvesting, dailes, story-line quests are solo activites but yield nothing for the player to handle elite end game mobs. Here's a run down on WoW gathered from WoWhead (which i followed to keep up with what the game is still doing to this day) and info from friends who still play.
Crafting, it's been six months and three patches since i played and the only purple gear one can make that is worth it is from using orbs only obtainable from being in a raid already.
Harvesting, although it's streamlined there are still areas of the game never fixed like getting the ore from the first expansion called Burning crusade for engineers to make their flying machine is almost impossible. One has to go into a heroic to see if any is there and they have lockouts to keep you from repeatedly going into heroics to do this. Not to mention making something with this harvested materials falls back on their failed crafting.
Story-line quests: The only storyline quests they have are when they add something which is far and few between patches. They offer nothing in the way of good gear often giving you junk to vendor. They definitely are not game changing in any real sense only putting you into the same phaze so you can see others who have completed those said areas.
So essentially they are only giving you a carrot on a stick long enough to keep you going on their game. It's why i will never pay for another sub only game in my future.
The biggest insult to me was them finally adding cosmetics only after they lost 1mil subs in a 1 month time period.
While much of whayt you say is true, you need to get certain facts straight. The newer ilvl 365 craftables require orbs from heroics, not raids only. Secondly, they didn't lose 1 mill subs in a month, it has been over the past two quarters this year, and officially it's 900k subs (although proably close to a million at this point). If we're going to have a discussion, then we need to make sure we are being honest.
Back to the topic at hand:
Blizzard is especially guilty of what I would even consider bait and switch tactics. The first 84 levels of the game are mostly a solo endeavor, but as soon as you reach 85 your progress is mostly tied to others. You cannot craft many items without chaos orbs, which drop from 5 man heroic content, and at that point it's only a chance you will receive one, so crafting isn't solo content. You can finish all of the quests in the zones, but it doesn't net you any reward aside from the gold you obtain, and of course viewing the content. However, once that is done once or twice, it's no longer fresh content, and doesn't really count as endgame solo content. Exploration only lasts so long before you complete it, same with daily quests. You reach a point where you have completed the daily quests, and they become a grind.
Bottom line is that there isn't a way to meaningful progress your character outside of group content. Also, due to the nature of how content works in WoW, unless you can devote large periods of time to the game, you won't be able to progress extremely far with multiple characters, but rather you need to select 1-3 (depending on how much time you have) characters to progress and play with for the entire expansion to "keep up with the joneses".
Don't get me wrong, I love group content in mmos, especially when it's designed well. However, during the times where I am playing in the off-peak hours, or just want to run around on one of my characters by myself, the options are extremely limited for what I can do. I don't want to always have to play a solo game, because there are times I want to socialize in game chat, but run around doing content solo. Considering I am paying to access the game, there should be options to better serve all of their customers.
Very few games have actual group quests anymore so questing has pretty much turned into a solo activity. Vanguard is the only game I know that has group gathering so for most games crafting and harvesting are purely solo activities.
But a lack of solo content does not seem to be your real problem. Your first post said there was no solo content at the top level, but it appears you meant no solo content that rewards you with group or raid gear. You are correct there, but I think most rational people understand that soloing, grouping and raiding are all different activities with differing difficulties therefore, they have different rewards.
As much as I would like to see solo dungeons, I do not see any game company willing to invest the time or money needed to do it properly. You would have to completely rebalance each class and spec to be equal solo.
Why do you feel the need to solo elite mobs? A mob that is designed for group encounters should not be soloable.
Those elite mobs are the next level of challenge, once you've gone through everything else. If those mobs are designed specifically for group encounters (which is debatable, since you can engage them solo), then they should also design mobs specifically for solo encounters.
All playstyles should have viable paths of progression at end game. Solo players do not have that at this point.
If a mob I can't solo doesn't drop anything I want or need that I can't get from other mobs or from crafting then I don't care if I can solo it or not. You team players can have it. I'll go kill something else. But if I do want or need something off that mob then I want to be able to solo it within the level range I need or want the item at.
When it comes to game mechanics like elite mobs and instances with specific item drops, it isn't about soloing for the experience, it's about getting whatever you want or need out of an encounter. If I can't kill it by myself, then let me craft it by myself and you can keep your respawns and your repeatable instances. I'm incredibly bored of getting loot that way anyway.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I guess it's just my play style, or it could be my first games. The first games I played were PC games such as Morrowind, Oblivion, etc. Soloing just caters better to my play-style. That's not to say im completely against grouping, its just I have more fun soloing and figuring the game out myself.
Early years(AC-AC2-L2) i grouped alot but slowly i change and it seems alot other mmo players change also and i did not like grouping or joining a clan anymore and starting to solo sind last 5 years i solo with occasional joining a clan for group play.
But i still love solo alot i also play alot solo rpg's maybe that also influence my gaming behavior in multiplayer games?
It sounds like you are saying that it's more about the loot than the game experience. If a mob doesn't drop anything you want, but is a good challenge to solo, wouldn't you want to try it anyway?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Sure, but I'm thinking of the ones we usually end up killing over and over again for that piece of gear that, for example, makes a player better than a one hit kill in pvp. Games haven't left those mobs out so far, I don't figure they're going to start now. I don't even mind farming a specific mob once in awhile for a specific piece of gear, because I have my OCD farming moods, but when the whole game is about that, I get annoyed, and I get really annoyed (often to the point of just uninstalling) when I have to group up for gear I need to pvp or pve the most effectively (i.e., gear I need to get to further my enjoyment of what I want to do).
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
'Solo' or 'Group' are both VALID playstyles.
A good game will however, offer the players the CHOICE between Solo and Group.
Group will reward with 'more stuff' (XP, Loot, Gold w/e) because grouping takes more effort than solo.
What the playerbase does after that is up to the playerbase.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There is zero reason for grouping to award exclusive stuff, however. More stuff per run or a faster run through an area once you set up a good group (which comes down to the same thing) is fine, however. It's the exclusion of soloers from a certain tier of necessary gear that I have a problem with, not rewarding the time and effort spent making up a group in the first place.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I like that... more people, more stuff - not more people, better stuff.
Where do you draw the line though? Eventually players will want the runs to be just as fast with even a poor group. Then they will want the runs to be just as fast if you are solo. I don't think groupers are necesarily arguing for exluding solo gameplay, they seem to be simply trying not to become excluded themselves. If everyone is soloing, it becomes very hard to find groups, in my experience.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well if i look back on my mmo gaming experience the best grouping was had back in 2001+ in everquest, was great spending hours in a group grinding in "the overthere" or Dreadlands having people lining up to join a group that had some spot free.
This was great and back then everquest was soloable but for some classes like clerics it was very slow so pretty much grouping enforced, problem for the clerics was in later years the healing from druids/shamans was good enough for most grind content, meaning clercis where forced to join raids since there healing was needed but after the raid they where not needed for regular grind, this lead to burnout en masse.
Everquest today with out of combat regen and some dd procs even for clerics have made the game a lot more solo friendly, but when i play solo there is a crap load of content i never see, hell not sure i could solo some parts of the old Luclin end raid zone Vex'Thal with my lvl 67 main.
Another game i find rather good for both solo/grouping is Anarchy online, with the mission you can pull from terminals you always have solo content that you can alter to your own playstyle.
The biggest difference though is the mindset of people today, sure i played 2700 hours of wow and the community is garbage to say the least, no wonder people prefer to solo, i find it damn boring to spend time in a group that only care about being 100% efficient even on simple stuff, for you that played eq back in the day people had fun in groups and there was a lot of chatting going on, now you can join a group and get a "hi" maybe, then silence for 20 minutes until you see "bye" sucks donkey balls
part of the fun when grouping for me is having a lively chat going on without it what is the point?
There are grouping "semi forced" games out today, to name 2 ffxi and vanguard, sure you can solo in vanguard but it is slow and i tried doing some group quest on my lvl 10 sorcerer that was marked as lvl 8 and got owned fast
not sure on ffxi but vanguard has a very small community, think i seen 1 other player in 7 hours playing, but still the game is fun and good looking, and the crafting is very good.
Biggest problem for me with the final fantasy games is the fecked up ui and controls, if i like to use a hand controller i play on a console not a pc.
And it has been mentioned but Age of conan has a lot of solo/group content which i think is nice, for me though in the end the fact that i like to play many characters and like to change at lot soloing is the better option, i don't mind that i never see the end game stuff on my characters i still have fun, if people like to join raids for 6 hours a night fine with me
That's really the problem though, you don't have people grouping because they like to group, but because they get extra rewards. People usually solo because that's what they enjoy doing, not because they get any bonuses for doing it. So many groupers, though, only group because they want extra and exclusive crap, they don't care about being in a group, just benefiting from being in a group.
People who enjoy grouping for the sake of grouping wouldn't give a damn about extra rewards, they'd do it just because they enjoyed grouping and there would be no problem finding people to group with.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Do you ask five people to help you lift an empty box?
Do you ask three people to play white in a game of chess?
Do you play three DVD's at the same time and try and watch them all?
Your mind tells you to lift the box on your own, to ask one person to play as white, to watch one DVD instead of all at once. It's logical thinking, common sense. The same applies to MMO's. If the game is built in such a way that you can do everything solo, then by all logic and sense you go through that content solo. You CAN group, in the same sense that you CAN ask five people to help you lift an empty box. Your mind just naturally tells you to do it alone.
And so if there isn't content for groups to do, then people will continue playing the game as it's given to them. Rewards for group content are generally better because of the increased difficulty. You don't pay people a minimum wage for doing a tougher job - well, my boss does but he's an <censored>.
All you're doing is proving that most people really don't like to group, they need to be pushed into it, bribed or penalized for not doing it. Otherwise, people just don't group for the pure enjoyment of grouping.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
People perform the tasks that have been given to them in the most logical way they can. It's not a case of like or dislike, it's about playing the game in the way it's been designed to be played. Much like a Racing game has you go around the track a number of times, you wouldn't go the wrong way around that track because it's a) not going to win the game and b) it's going against game design. Though it might be a laugh one or twice.
Same principle with MMO's. If the game has been designed in a way where you can solo the entire time, people aren't going to group up 'because they can', they'll do what the game is asking them to do. To group in a solo environment is like going backwards around that racing track. It makes no logical sense to group up when the game is telling you to 'go over there and hand this message to JohnnyNPC_1'.
Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.
MMORPG just means its a role playing game with alot of people online at the same time, people just like to amend the definition.
Really? And where did this definition come from, exactly? Let's take a look at what Wikipedia has to say:
MMOGs
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world.
MMORPGs
Massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of role-playing video games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world.
I see cooperate, compete, interact, but nowhere do I see mention of people who just happen to be on the same server, not needing to do any of those activities. So what about single player? Modern MMO's are catering massively to solo play, so what does wikipedia have to say about single player games:
Single Player Games
A single-player video game is a video game where input from only one player is expected throughout the course of the gaming session. The major selling points of larger single-player games are interesting storylines, impressive graphics, and realistic non-player characters and opponents. Selling points of the smaller games are low learning curve and availability (many are free to play on various sites).
Modern MMO's require input from only one player through most of the game, has started to include interesting storylines such as the upcoming Old Republic, the graphics are getting better, though the opponents still fall short. They also have a low learning curve and are becoming free to play almost everywhere.
Hmm.. So what does that tell us? It tells us what a lot of the pro-groupers have said in this thread. That MMO's are slowly becoming Massively Single Player games, that interaction and cooperation is almost completely gone, and that the worlds we used to know and love are following single player game development ideas and becoming personal storylines and low difficulty.
To remove grouping, to increase the amount of soloing, and to give solo options to end game just brings MMORPGs closer and closer to single player games. MMORPGs are dying. To be pro-solo is to be pro the death of a genre.
Interacting with other people can happen in many different levels, I could solo the entire game, trade an item to another and it would be considered interaction. Grouping is not directly implied in the definition no matter how we break it down.
Claiming that pro-solo'ers is going to kill the genre is irrational and over emotional. Your clarity on the matter is compromised and more compared to a dispute in a kindergarten class that claims another has stolen a toy. A playstyle can not be blamed for changes in the games you enjoy or how this genre progresses.
The MMO genre has to expand, they can not keep using the same game model and expect to survive. I hope that you find a good gaming experience in the future that satisfies your tastes but until then you're stuck like us waiting around for something to come by and give that feeling we had when we first stepped into the world of mmos.