How smart is it to expect companies to be able to forever host games while offering them completely free?
No one is asking them to, all we want them to do is stop selling items that give players an unfair advantage over the rest of their gamimg world, so no selling gold tipped shells, or armour of the gods, or sword of the amazing "i paid for it" Doom!, work out some other way of doing it.
Sell costetics, sell xp boosts, sell name changes, sell server changes, sell costume dye's , sell pets , there is a million different things they can monetize that will not make the game pay to win.
I totally agree with you on that one. Too bad the guy who wrote the article doesn't. He is talking about anything in the cash shop being too much of a temptation not to buy and that's why he's broke. So even if the stuff in the cash shop was NOT pay to win stuff, it's still too much for Coyote.
I also say that if you think that cash shops have pay to win type things in them, then don't play that game.
My biggest point is that people like Coyote need to stop complaining about cash shops in F2P games. No one is holding a gun to their heads and telling them to buy anything. Show a little self control and you won't have to worry about the "evil" companies.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
How smart is it to expect companies to be able to forever host games while offering them completely free?
No one is asking them to, all we want them to do is stop selling items that give players an unfair advantage over the rest of their gamimg world, so no selling gold tipped shells, or armour of the gods, or sword of the amazing "i paid for it" Doom!, work out some other way of doing it.
Sell costetics, sell xp boosts, sell name changes, sell server changes, sell costume dye's , sell pets , there is a million different things they can monetize that will not make the game pay to win.
I totally agree with you on that one. Too bad the guy who wrote the article doesn't. He is talking about anything in the cash shop being too much of a temptation not to buy and that's why he's broke. So even if the stuff in the cash shop was NOT pay to win stuff, it's still too much for Coyote.
I also say that if you think that cash shops have pay to win type things in them, then don't play that game.
My biggest point is that people like Coyote need to stop complaining about cash shops in F2P games. No one is holding a gun to their heads and telling them to buy anything. Show a little self control and you won't have to worry about the "evil" companies.
too bad people like you also never understand, don't give the real valor for his money, or his parents money most of the case, but we old school get tired of this kind of games who are boring money grabs, and only reason for this kind of scam happes are because we have people who feel for it, everything he write on that article happens, like dev to another dev. "
hey I need to change my BMW for a newer model, and don't want to wait, so what we can do to get this money soon? thinking and he they come with the idea, I know let's take this mount, put a new skin, raise the move speed a little and ask for 25 for this limited who no one else will have, cost to make it all one day of work.
fool's server, weee new mount and no one else will have on my server I will pay 25 just to stand out and look leet, he pays, long in the server, with his new mount then when he looks everyone have the same new mount.......
yeah monetizing things who should be in game for free to anyone who plays it, is really smart..... maybe we should also pay per minute for internet again, because really, all the business are so hurting, I really feel sorry the suits on then who only get 1M a year, they sure don't earn enough to live, also we should toss internet neutrality out the window and monetize it all too, so I want to have extra speed to play my games and look on my e-mail on hotmail, so I pay my 50 standard, plus 50 so I can have speed for both of then, so I just hope I never will need to download a work or I make another e-mail, hell let's make it by game, so I have to pay extra 12 bucks to each game I play online and want to have max speed possible. oh and I just hope no one else pay even more then me so they can have preference over me.
really guys, if you are a fool and want to give your money to suits fine by me, send the damn check via mail to him, but please don't spoil even more the gamming genre even more.
So even if the stuff in the cash shop was NOT pay to win stuff, it's still too much for Coyote. ... ... .... My biggest point is that people like Coyote need to stop complaining about cash shops in F2P games.
too bad people like you also never understand, don't give the real valor for his money, or his parents money most of the case,
Actually you're wrong in your assessment.
According to just about every study done, it's ADULTS who are spending the most money in games with cash shops because.. surprise!... they have the most disposable income to spend.
That's the other part of the argument people against FTP games don't grasp: ANY money you spend in a game's cash shop should automatically be termed as DISPOSABLE because you don't care if it's gone; reason being it's slotted for just that purpose... entertainment.
So if you find yourself "Going Broke on F2P".. that's your fault (or someone else's) for spending NON-disposable income on a game.
I'm not for cashshops per se, but I at least understand that if I was going to use one, I'd be using money that was slotted for that purpose and not the rent money or my kid's college tuition.
If you go broke in a FTP game spending your money in a cash shop trying to "compete", you've only got yourself to blame, not the industry or that company.
So true. I started noticing that it would've cost me roughly $40/month to buy each new champion in League of Legends since champions comes out twice a month. That's more than I would've paid for a monthly subscription fee.
But what matters to me is the availability of the game. In a sub-based game, if I don't pay my "bill" (yes it's a bill), they cut me off like the utility company. In a free-to-play, you are not obligated to pay every month.
Yes I agree that it would be hard to keep track how much we spend in a micro-transactions but the problem is not the game, but our spending habit.
I have been playing AOC since it went FTP & so far I have spent a Massive $0 dollars I also played EQx for a few Month & again spent $0 dollars , I love FTP game because My play style suits them
I play for the journey, I don't play for endagme or to look cool , so when Rift goes FTP & it will I will again go & enjoy the journey for a few characters before moving on to my next FTP game .,
Cheers Coyote, glad to see you in the "against" camp.
Next time around I'd appreciate it if you'd spend some time writing about the newest trend: box price + sub fee + CASH SHOP! I.e. The Secret World and to a lesser extent (due to no box price) EVE online.
That's evil squared and fully deserving your personal attention, imho.
Agreed, but it aint so new... EQ2 has been running the quad dip model (box, sub, expac, cash shop) for a while now.
So true. I started noticing that it would've cost me roughly $40/month to buy each new champion in League of Legends since champions comes out twice a month. That's more than I would've paid for a monthly subscription fee.
But what matters to me is the availability of the game. In a sub-based game, if I don't pay my "bill" (yes it's a bill), they cut me off like the utility company. In a free-to-play, you are not obligated to pay every month.
Yes I agree that it would be hard to keep track how much we spend in a micro-transactions but the problem is not the game, but our spending habit.
more likely you can't track not because you spending habits, you guys forget the game IS made in such way you need to pay for something some are more upfront of it others hide better, but in the end the CS will be there not to help you but to try to make it a vice, like drug user after the 1st fix, you will have to pay, or you really think when the people running this F2P games gives things like one day 2xp item or some cash to spend(normally enough just to buy pots and maybe a lesser item to helpenchant gear, aka or you use it or you gear break)
Cheers Coyote, glad to see you in the "against" camp.
Next time around I'd appreciate it if you'd spend some time writing about the newest trend: box price + sub fee + CASH SHOP! I.e. The Secret World and to a lesser extent (due to no box price) EVE online.
That's evil squared and fully deserving your personal attention, imho.
Agreed, but it aint so new... EQ2 has been running the quad dip model (box, sub, expac, cash shop) for a while now.
and still it's players defend it to death
I don't think this makes sense. The P2P and F2P models are seperate clients and the cash shops, though both have them, are for vanity items (X server does have crafting materials and regents but nothing you can't get from playing). Also, once you buy an xpac all previous ones are included.
A year of F2P LotRO has, for me, ended up being just like a regular sub game, only I don't have to sub 100% of the time. I think I subbed for 8 of the last 13 months, and other than buying the expansions, I have not spent a dime outside the sub price. The accumulated Turbine Points that I've obtained from sub time and from simply playing has allowed me to unlock every zone, every instance, and buy the occasional extra perk.
Subbing once in a while also has the advantage that it unlocks all the bag and trait slots for all of your characters, and they stay unlocked.This solution obviously doesn't work for subless games, but most of the new freemium games are still better than those that are designed to be F2P.
Excellent post.
You speak very well on behalf of the FTP market with a compelling case "FOR" FTP.
Best reasoned response I've seen in a long time.
Well it is all ok BUT there are things you can get ONLY in cash shop and I mean like advantage items. There are stat tomes, store-exclusive relics, store-only relic removal scrolls (mechanic taken out of game and put into store).
There are p2w things like: pvp skills for monster players previously you got them after you ranked which aquiring high ranks took months or more, now you spash some cash and you can get high ranked skills immedietaly even if you low rank. (talk about caring for all those people who worked for those ranks all this time before), stun0immunity scrolls, fear-immunity scrolls, vert powerful store-only pots,etc
There are also things like one very needed scroll needed used alot for core game mechanic (for Legendary Weapon) - only can get for enourmous grind (thousands of shards) or guess what from store. One weapon can use like 20+ of those scrolls.
+ many more and with every update store expand as well
So yea
I still remember Turbine saying that store won't offer advantage.
They lied...all corporations lie...it's in their nature...
FTP=The work of the devil. Give me a sub only based game anyday.
What about a B2P game with DLC... where the premium for the online aspect was built into the prices for the original box, the DLC, and any expansions? That way, you would not pay for what you did not do. Or perhaps a tiered subscription model with varying access?
The common example I use for the latter is the following:
Thomas does raiding.
Richard does PvP.
Harold does raiding and PvP.
All three are paying the same $15ish a month sub. They're obviously not all accessing the same content.
Thomas plays on the weekends only.
Richard plays an hour a day or so.
Harold plays the game like a full time job.
All three are paying the same $15ish a month sub. They're obviously not all playing the same amount of time.
Part of the reason that we ended up with the $15ish a month sub is because of it - people that do not access all the content or who do not play as much as others...well, they're supplementing the costs to the company for the players that do...
...imagine going into a restaurant where everybody paid the same amount regardless of what they ordered off the menu. The guy ordering the grilled cheese is paying the same as the guy ordering the lobster.
I'd much rather have B2P w/DLC or tiered P2P w/DLC.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
dont play f2p cash shop games ... the whole concept is made to feed on the rich people who dont care about money and force the players who cant actually affort it to pay tons of money to compete. sadly its working too well, why else would there be tons of those games out there.
Cheers Coyote, glad to see you in the "against" camp.
Next time around I'd appreciate it if you'd spend some time writing about the newest trend: box price + sub fee + CASH SHOP! I.e. The Secret World and to a lesser extent (due to no box price) EVE online.
That's evil squared and fully deserving your personal attention, imho.
That's SOE for ya. You get to buy the game, pay a subscription, then you have to buy to win in the cash shop...Greed much?
On F2P games I just limit myself to $15 a month anyways, so it's like paying a subscription.
You have to either really watch your spending or not spend at all on F2P games. Bait and switch, you see it all over the place. In the end you can suffer for free or pay to win...
Question... is the game designed to make this more likely?
Think of a con artist... they con people. The con artist gets arrested... is what you provided a probable defense for said con artist? They are con games. They are scams. Some people will not be conned. Some people will not be scammed. Does that change that it is a con or a scam? Based on what you said there at the end - odds are you'd never be on a jury in any criminal case involving any sort of scam. It's not Madoff's fault that all those people were morons...am I right? /sigh
Absolutely!
The game is designed to get as much money out of people as it can. That's the whole point of running a business. It's not a con, scam or a hustle.
See, in a con you get nothing. Or you don't get what you PAID for. Note: paid.
The person who sees the cash shop looks at items for sale. That person picks and chooses which items they want to purchase. They make the selection and process the transaction. The person goes in-game to collect said purchases. Person then uses items.
A con would be the person did all that above, but did not receive the item they paid for. Or the item does not do what it is advertised to do.
For instance: You buy a pot that claims it will double your exp rate by 50% for one hour. You use the pot and it doubles your exp by 25% for 30 minutes. You tell the company and they say "so what? too late." That is a con.
Question... is the game designed to make this more likely?
Think of a con artist... they con people. The con artist gets arrested... is what you provided a probable defense for said con artist?
They are con games. They are scams.
Some people will not be conned. Some people will not be scammed.
Does that change that it is a con or a scam?
Based on what you said there at the end - odds are you'd never be on a jury in any criminal case involving any sort of scam.
It's not Madoff's fault that all those people were morons...am I right? /sigh
Absolutely!
The game is designed to get as much money out of people as it can. That's the whole point of running a business. It's not a con, scam or a hustle.
See, in a con you get nothing. Or you don't get what you PAID for. Note: paid.
The person who sees the cash shop looks at items for sale. That person picks and chooses which items they want to purchase. They make the selection and process the transaction. The person goes in-game to collect said purchases. Person then uses items.
A con would be the person did all that above, but did not receive the item they paid for. Or the item does not do what it is advertised to do.
For instance: You buy a pot that claims it will double your exp rate by 50% for one hour. You use the pot and it doubles your exp by 25% for 30 minutes. You tell the company and they say "so what? too late." That is a con.
Your Madoff story isn't the same, sorry.
Madoff was just an example of a scheme.
Would you prefer the used car dealership? They advertise a car that is not in stock to get the person to come to the dealership and then they sell them another one? Heck, that's not even just a used car dealership - that is pretty much any brick & mortar electronics store...lol.
It is a predatory business model. Companies do not go with a "F2P" model to make less money or switch to one to make the same money. They do so to make more money.
The way the game is designed or redesigned - increases the "need" to make such purchases. Leveling time is increased...basically all grinds are increased. Knowing that the playerbase is what they are...designing as such - is what makes it a scam.
There are so many different examples of various "business models" that are scams out there... F2P games are the same. Even from the start - with how loosely defined the term "play" is in the F2P model. If one is very literal, then many of the games could actually be considered free to play. Being able to login, create a character, and stand there doing nothing...could be considered "playing"...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I do not believe anyone who claims they never spent a dime in a f2p game. They are suspect the minute they say that and have probably spent way too much on it.
I've never spent a dime in any F2p beleive me or don't no skin off my back, I know for a fact i haven't though...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think many people who responded to this article missed one very important point. Since the advent of FTP plans and cash shops in both FTP and P2P games, many game companies are shifting their focus from bringing us FUN games to play, to trying their damndest to make all of us sad identical tw@ts in over priced yet at the same time worthless party hats.
I'm not sure what the rest of you expect from an MMO, but I for one expect them to be more than just an online digital version of Blue Banana or Hot Topic.
Oh and Coyote, "Jamalick cil jahash", signed, the people of Chad.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Comments
I totally agree with you on that one. Too bad the guy who wrote the article doesn't. He is talking about anything in the cash shop being too much of a temptation not to buy and that's why he's broke. So even if the stuff in the cash shop was NOT pay to win stuff, it's still too much for Coyote.
I also say that if you think that cash shops have pay to win type things in them, then don't play that game.
My biggest point is that people like Coyote need to stop complaining about cash shops in F2P games. No one is holding a gun to their heads and telling them to buy anything. Show a little self control and you won't have to worry about the "evil" companies.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
too bad people like you also never understand, don't give the real valor for his money, or his parents money most of the case, but we old school get tired of this kind of games who are boring money grabs, and only reason for this kind of scam happes are because we have people who feel for it, everything he write on that article happens, like dev to another dev. "
hey I need to change my BMW for a newer model, and don't want to wait, so what we can do to get this money soon? thinking and he they come with the idea, I know let's take this mount, put a new skin, raise the move speed a little and ask for 25 for this limited who no one else will have, cost to make it all one day of work.
fool's server, weee new mount and no one else will have on my server I will pay 25 just to stand out and look leet, he pays, long in the server, with his new mount then when he looks everyone have the same new mount.......
yeah monetizing things who should be in game for free to anyone who plays it, is really smart..... maybe we should also pay per minute for internet again, because really, all the business are so hurting, I really feel sorry the suits on then who only get 1M a year, they sure don't earn enough to live, also we should toss internet neutrality out the window and monetize it all too, so I want to have extra speed to play my games and look on my e-mail on hotmail, so I pay my 50 standard, plus 50 so I can have speed for both of then, so I just hope I never will need to download a work or I make another e-mail, hell let's make it by game, so I have to pay extra 12 bucks to each game I play online and want to have max speed possible. oh and I just hope no one else pay even more then me so they can have preference over me.
really guys, if you are a fool and want to give your money to suits fine by me, send the damn check via mail to him, but please don't spoil even more the gamming genre even more.
Article is srs journalism written by a srs journalist yo!
According to just about every study done, it's ADULTS who are spending the most money in games with cash shops because.. surprise!... they have the most disposable income to spend.
That's the other part of the argument people against FTP games don't grasp: ANY money you spend in a game's cash shop should automatically be termed as DISPOSABLE because you don't care if it's gone; reason being it's slotted for just that purpose... entertainment.
So if you find yourself "Going Broke on F2P".. that's your fault (or someone else's) for spending NON-disposable income on a game.
I'm not for cashshops per se, but I at least understand that if I was going to use one, I'd be using money that was slotted for that purpose and not the rent money or my kid's college tuition.
If you go broke in a FTP game spending your money in a cash shop trying to "compete", you've only got yourself to blame, not the industry or that company.
"TO MICHAEL!"
So true. I started noticing that it would've cost me roughly $40/month to buy each new champion in League of Legends since champions comes out twice a month. That's more than I would've paid for a monthly subscription fee.
But what matters to me is the availability of the game. In a sub-based game, if I don't pay my "bill" (yes it's a bill), they cut me off like the utility company. In a free-to-play, you are not obligated to pay every month.
Yes I agree that it would be hard to keep track how much we spend in a micro-transactions but the problem is not the game, but our spending habit.
Ready for GW2!!!
I wouldn't say broke but playing multiple P2P games is definitely not cheap....hahaha especially if you have to pay to keep extra characters.
Article was way cool, this had me laughing my ass off.
I have been playing AOC since it went FTP & so far I have spent a Massive $0 dollars I also played EQx for a few Month & again spent $0 dollars , I love FTP game because My play style suits them
I play for the journey, I don't play for endagme or to look cool , so when Rift goes FTP & it will I will again go & enjoy the journey for a few characters before moving on to my next FTP game .,
Agreed, but it aint so new... EQ2 has been running the quad dip model (box, sub, expac, cash shop) for a while now.
and still it's players defend it to death
more likely you can't track not because you spending habits, you guys forget the game IS made in such way you need to pay for something some are more upfront of it others hide better, but in the end the CS will be there not to help you but to try to make it a vice, like drug user after the 1st fix, you will have to pay, or you really think when the people running this F2P games gives things like one day 2xp item or some cash to spend(normally enough just to buy pots and maybe a lesser item to helpenchant gear, aka or you use it or you gear break)
I don't think this makes sense. The P2P and F2P models are seperate clients and the cash shops, though both have them, are for vanity items (X server does have crafting materials and regents but nothing you can't get from playing). Also, once you buy an xpac all previous ones are included.
Am I missing something?
Edit: Arrows, not regents
Someone's wallet before they paid their rent, car note, food bill, child support, clothes, etc:
They're only supposed to spend THIS much on gaming after they take out for their bills:
Players see this:
..and moronically spend THIS much:
Then they're all like:
Not the game's fault someone is a moron and doesn't budget.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Question... is the game designed to make this more likely? Has it been designed in a way to take advantage of this situation?
Think of a con artist... they con people. The con artist gets arrested... is what you provided a probable defense for said con artist?
They are con games. They are scams.
Some people will not be conned. Some people will not be scammed.
Does that change that it is a con or a scam?
Based on what you said there at the end - odds are you'd never be on a jury in any criminal case involving any sort of scam.
It's not Madoff's fault that all those people were morons...am I right? /sigh
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
FTP=The work of the devil. Give me a sub only based game anyday.
They lied...all corporations lie...it's in their nature...
What about a B2P game with DLC... where the premium for the online aspect was built into the prices for the original box, the DLC, and any expansions? That way, you would not pay for what you did not do. Or perhaps a tiered subscription model with varying access?
The common example I use for the latter is the following:
Thomas does raiding.
Richard does PvP.
Harold does raiding and PvP.
All three are paying the same $15ish a month sub. They're obviously not all accessing the same content.
Thomas plays on the weekends only.
Richard plays an hour a day or so.
Harold plays the game like a full time job.
All three are paying the same $15ish a month sub. They're obviously not all playing the same amount of time.
Part of the reason that we ended up with the $15ish a month sub is because of it - people that do not access all the content or who do not play as much as others...well, they're supplementing the costs to the company for the players that do...
...imagine going into a restaurant where everybody paid the same amount regardless of what they ordered off the menu. The guy ordering the grilled cheese is paying the same as the guy ordering the lobster.
I'd much rather have B2P w/DLC or tiered P2P w/DLC.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
dont play f2p cash shop games ... the whole concept is made to feed on the rich people who dont care about money and force the players who cant actually affort it to pay tons of money to compete. sadly its working too well, why else would there be tons of those games out there.
That's SOE for ya. You get to buy the game, pay a subscription, then you have to buy to win in the cash shop...Greed much?
On F2P games I just limit myself to $15 a month anyways, so it's like paying a subscription.
You have to either really watch your spending or not spend at all on F2P games. Bait and switch, you see it all over the place. In the end you can suffer for free or pay to win...
The game is designed to get as much money out of people as it can. That's the whole point of running a business. It's not a con, scam or a hustle.
See, in a con you get nothing. Or you don't get what you PAID for. Note: paid.
The person who sees the cash shop looks at items for sale. That person picks and chooses which items they want to purchase. They make the selection and process the transaction. The person goes in-game to collect said purchases. Person then uses items.
A con would be the person did all that above, but did not receive the item they paid for. Or the item does not do what it is advertised to do.
For instance: You buy a pot that claims it will double your exp rate by 50% for one hour. You use the pot and it doubles your exp by 25% for 30 minutes. You tell the company and they say "so what? too late." That is a con.
Your Madoff story isn't the same, sorry.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Madoff was just an example of a scheme.
Would you prefer the used car dealership? They advertise a car that is not in stock to get the person to come to the dealership and then they sell them another one? Heck, that's not even just a used car dealership - that is pretty much any brick & mortar electronics store...lol.
It is a predatory business model. Companies do not go with a "F2P" model to make less money or switch to one to make the same money. They do so to make more money.
The way the game is designed or redesigned - increases the "need" to make such purchases. Leveling time is increased...basically all grinds are increased. Knowing that the playerbase is what they are...designing as such - is what makes it a scam.
There are so many different examples of various "business models" that are scams out there... F2P games are the same. Even from the start - with how loosely defined the term "play" is in the F2P model. If one is very literal, then many of the games could actually be considered free to play. Being able to login, create a character, and stand there doing nothing...could be considered "playing"...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I've never spent a dime in any F2p beleive me or don't no skin off my back, I know for a fact i haven't though...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Good article, thanks for keepin it real.
I think many people who responded to this article missed one very important point. Since the advent of FTP plans and cash shops in both FTP and P2P games, many game companies are shifting their focus from bringing us FUN games to play, to trying their damndest to make all of us sad identical tw@ts in over priced yet at the same time worthless party hats.
I'm not sure what the rest of you expect from an MMO, but I for one expect them to be more than just an online digital version of Blue Banana or Hot Topic.
Oh and Coyote, "Jamalick cil jahash", signed, the people of Chad.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "