I agree completely. The lack of dynamics in npc's, landscape and creatures makes the whole world look like a cardboard cutout on a stage. Combined with the lackluster models, the lack of character diversity both in players and npc's and the purely hotkey driven combat... I am very worried about the game's potential. There is simply no justification for the state the game is in right now, three weeks before launch.
The story may be alright, but it does not make up for the completely unimmersive gaming experience. SWTOR just isn't up to Bioware standards.
AC (retired); EQ (retired); DAoC (retired); Horizons (retired); EQII (retired); CoH (retired); AC II (tested); Lineage II (beta); Neocron (tested); Saga of Ryzom (beta); SWG (retired)...
I agree completely. The lack of dynamics in npc's, landscape and creatures makes the whole world look like a cardboard cutout on a stage. Combined with the lackluster models, the lack of character diversity both in players and npc's and the purely hotkey driven combat... I am very worried about the game's potential. There is simply no justification for the state the game is in right now, three weeks before launch.
The story may be alright, but it does not make up for the completely unimmersive gaming experience. SWTOR just isn't up to Bioware standards.
Bioware ain't bioware anymore, enjoy Mass Effect 3 and put them to rest. That's what I'm going to do anyways.
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
I disagree completely - I've played all of those mmo's minus WAR and they all had much less of the static feel than this game. In all of those games you could interact with any npc for a quick bit of conversation, there were more ambient sounds and activity, more pathing for mobs and npcs, critters in the game, and above all the towns and cities just felt more alive. LOTRO had tons of that, npc ambient conversations all over the place, tons of world creatures, fish, bands playing, blacksmiths working, etc etc. Same for RIFT to an extent, although I would say LOTRO had the most. Even WOW had a lot of scripted npc events and activities in cities. And in general, I haven't played an mmo with as little mob movement or pathing as in this game.
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
This
I didn't see any difference from SWTOR as the rest of those listed. I think we would all like mmos to be more like Skyrim or The Witcher 2 in how alive the worlds are. But we haven't seen that yet.
We wont see a world like Skyrim in the mmorpg genre in quite a while.
The tech isnt there imo. Think about all the little things in skyrim that would just break down once you place thousands of people in the world. Everything the system has to keep track off. its too much.
I have to disagree. I think it is quite possible with the current technology. ONE COMPUTER can handle Skyrim's world. A bunch of servers could certainly handle it as well. Making an immersive world really hasn't been a goal of the vast, vast majority of MMOs though. After all, if the NPCs have lives and wander around, then that means you'll have to go and find them to turn in your quests and players might miss picking them up...and that's not really acceptable in the WoW model. Further, it's just a lot of worthless work when you'd just making quest hubs anyhow. GW2 is certainly moving in more of a Skyrim direction and showing some of the ways current technology can be harnessed to make a more immersive world.
Anyhow...in response to the op:
Despite my misgivings I decided to try out the beta test.
I didn't find the static world unimmersive. Playing with my brother, it seemed like a game I might pick up if it didn't have a monthly fee I did notice it was a bit static of course, but it didn't really bother me. That said, the dialogue and story parts were by far the best part of the game..unfortunately they are also a very small part of the game in terms of the time you spend doing them.
Then I went and played a Sith Inquisitor solo. My god the combat was tedious after an hour or so and it only got worse as I leveled. I felt like my abilities lacked enough punch and I didn't enjoy fighting for so long against a group. I am not sure how long a battle actually took and it might have only been 30 seconds, but it felt like forever. I think after playing WoW so long and then switching to normal games, I just can't stand the boring and repetitive nature of WoW-like combat systems (and yes, I know WoW didn't pioneer this).
I did find some aspects of the story rather immersion-breaking. They also have done the annoying ME thing where occasionally they give you a completely misleading description for a dialogue choice (ironically, usually when just writing out what you'd say would be quite feasible). Those are minor quibbles though.
I traveled to a bunch of planets during the weekend beta and all i can say is they have more mountains and rock formations segmenting the maps then the Himalaya mountrain ranges. Honestly i expected to see vast deserts in Tatooine and all i saw was sand squashed between mountains
I had great fun playing. Im sure they can work on these points but for me i dont mind them at the moment. They dont make the game any less fun.
And the music is pure star wars. Never had gaps in music, always felt like i was in the starwars universe.
You had constantly playing music through the whole weekend?
I did as well, but I heard alot of people make this complaint. I wonder if hardware is to blame here? As in they havnt optimized the sounds of the game for some soundcard drivers? I dunno. I suspect there was sound problems this weekend cause they had the known bug where you could hear peoples companions as if they were right next to you. I'm sure that will all be fixed.
Back to the OP.. I saw alot of NPC interactions. And would frequently overhear conversations as I walked by. Like in the cantina on Tattooine I heard three imperial troopers talking as two males tried to get the female to dance for them, saying they had danced on stage there a bunch.. only to have her go thats good to hear and I'm sure our CO will love to hear it too. So very empire. I also stood on Balmorra and clearly recall finding it curous how flocks of birds were circling a mountain as giant cannons were shooting down passing star fighters. On that same planet I thought it was curious when I came across a rebel town to see a bunch of the rebels tending a field of veggies. Sooo dead worlds? Hrmm. I didn't as much experience that. I did think it was odd that sometimes NPCs would just be chilling against a wall and you couldnt click on them to make em say something or whatever. And yes, sometimes the mobs were very static. But it didnt detract from the game that much for me and actually I see alot of RP potential in the game. I for one will be playing on a RP server.
I traveled to a bunch of planets during the weekend beta and all i can say is they have more mountains and rock formations segmenting the maps then the Himalaya mountrain ranges. Honestly i expected to see vast deserts in Tatooine and all i saw was sand squashed between mountains
Tatooine and other non-starter worlds were broken up like that? Early reviews I read said they were huge open areas and the Devs talked about encouraging exploration. I didn't get off the starting planets, so I figured they were an exception.
I like the game but I understand where the OP is coming from.
Some of the places do feel like graveyards. The Senate Plaza are is one, why cant they have people milling about. In Aion you had those 3 kids skipping around the city that was high up in the sky, even UO had a schedule where the Sun came out or it got dark.
I suppose that would ruin the stroy telling part of the game because how would you explain a Senator in his office 24 hours a day with the Sun always being out.
Bioware spent so much time crafting thier MMO they did neglect to make certain parts of the world feel alive. They got the visuals down with the graphics and created some nice looking areas to look at, all with the backdrop of Star Wars music but they havent breathed any life into what they created.
Anyways, I pre-ordered. Despite some flaws the game at this point is fun and fresh. Rift was the same way for me, I loved it for the first 40 levels then honeymoon wore off after 3 months and I got bored very fast.
Been seeing a lot of this, didnt bother with the weekend beta myself as was in for a few month earlier in year.
Not sure whats changed since then TBH as the worlds did feel fairly alive back then, you would see packs of animals grazing, people going about their business in social areas. Even standing back from agro mobs and you could watch them go about their business until approached.
I'll see if I still have the footage but had some great videos of tuskens going about life until i waded in a murdered them all
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
I disagree completely - I've played all of those mmo's minus WAR and they all had much less of the static feel than this game. In all of those games you could interact with any npc for a quick bit of conversation, there were more ambient sounds and activity, more pathing for mobs and npcs, critters in the game, and above all the towns and cities just felt more alive. LOTRO had tons of that, npc ambient conversations all over the place, tons of world creatures, fish, bands playing, blacksmiths working, etc etc. Same for RIFT to an extent, although I would say LOTRO had the most. Even WOW had a lot of scripted npc events and activities in cities. And in general, I haven't played an mmo with as little mob movement or pathing as in this game.
Exactly, I don't know how you can say SWTOR is as lively as LoTRO that game had ambience hardcore. During my Beta experience and 6 hours of play time I only saw one NPC move the entire time, and it was a guy locked in a jail banging on the force field. At least in WAR there was still roaming guards, critters, and ambient sound effects. A lot of this is also to do with mobs as well, the mobs in SWTOR just sit in a group of 3-4 waiting to be killed. I hardly ever saw any mob move at all. There just is no pathing in this game for NPC/Mobs which makes leveling up a bit off to most people.
Don't get me wrong, I am planning to pre-order the game tomorrow still as I love the story aspect and companion/spaceship(as a house), and PvP(cant wait to try Illum, one of the first themeparks to offer a world objective zone at launch). However I am not sure how immersed I will be till this issue is fixed, I am hoping it comes in a patch within the next few month's.
I have to disagree. I think it is quite possible with the current technology. ONE COMPUTER can handle Skyrim's world. A bunch of servers could certainly handle it as well.
The question isn't whether a bunch of servers could or could not handle an MMO version of Skyrim, with its massive, dynamic world. The question is how dynamic is too dynamic? If every single one of those thousands of simultaneous players has an instant and permanent effect on the game world, then what? Literally the only people who could ever see the game as it was originally presented would be the first people to log in. After that, your entire game experience is directly tied to how everyone else before you acted. There has to be a balance between player immersion and static moments because the game world has to accommodate thousands of players at the same time. The developers want to offer a particular experience to every player.
There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene.
Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene.
Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
Well that's good news if it's just a problem of getting it to work as opposed to it not being in the game at all. Maybe that explains why some people have said there is some of it while others, like myself, heard basically none of it in the last two weekend tests.
Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
Originally posted by Margulis Originally posted by ghettobooste There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene. Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
Well that's good news if it's just a problem of getting it to work as opposed to it not being in the game at all. Maybe that explains why some people have said there is some of it while others, like myself, heard basically none of it in the last two weekend tests. Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
I don't think you could pack any more mobs in the areas where the mobs hang out. More NPCs would be good, if it didn't lead to lag.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene.
Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
Well that's good news if it's just a problem of getting it to work as opposed to it not being in the game at all. Maybe that explains why some people have said there is some of it while others, like myself, heard basically none of it in the last two weekend tests.
Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
I completely agree about mob placement and movement. It's a big step backwards. This is probably the most dissapointing thing in SWTOR for me.
There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene.
Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
Well that's good news if it's just a problem of getting it to work as opposed to it not being in the game at all. Maybe that explains why some people have said there is some of it while others, like myself, heard basically none of it in the last two weekend tests.
Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
I don't think you could pack any more mobs in the areas where the mobs hang out. More NPCs would be good, if it didn't lead to lag.
It's not an issue of more mobs or even more npc's, but more movement, pathing, scripting for the ones that are there.
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
This
I didn't see any difference from SWTOR as the rest of those listed. I think we would all like mmos to be more like Skyrim or The Witcher 2 in how alive the worlds are. But we haven't seen that yet.
We wont see a world like Skyrim in the mmorpg genre in quite a while.
The tech isnt there imo. Think about all the little things in skyrim that would just break down once you place thousands of people in the world. Everything the system has to keep track off. its too much.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
There was another topic about this here but it got locked for whatever reason - so I'm bringing this one over. I think this is one of the biggest problems with SWTOR right now and it doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves. The simple fact that the world just FEELS lifeless and static. Let me give a few examples:
1. Cities and social hubs - Running through these feels like a library or graveyard, not a bustling hub of activity. Why? Because the npc's are so static - like statues. There is hardly any ambient npc chatter, conversation, or sound (I heard 1 random npc conversation in 2 weekends of testing), and most of them are just stuck in place. You also can't interact with any npc's, unless they are a questgiver, for a small sentence or two of conversation like in other mmo's or the KOTOR games. There are a few examples of npc's "doing something", but those are in the great minority and even many of those are static in their actions (jedi meditating for example).
2. Mobs - A very high percentage of mobs just stand in place also, including non-aggro mobs. There is very little scripting / pathing for mobs in this game.
3. Critters / world creatures - Where are they? It's something you don't even really notice till they aren't there, but this game is severely lacking in them. The few that are there are also just stuck in place like statues.
4. Music / sound effects - There are large amounts of time with no music, which I think should be increased. It could also help if there were added ambient sound effects in the game (birds chirping, bugs, npc chatter as discussed earlier, etc).
All of this combined = a very static and lifeless world.
The argument that "this is how all mmo's are" doesn't work at all, as many AAA mmo's over the last 5-8 years have had great ambient atmosphere, npc acitivty, npc conversations, and lots of creatures running around.
Hopefully Bioware addresses this. The story, voice acting and cut scenes add a great deal of immersion, now if they can just get the rest of the game up to speed it would be awesome.
having played in the weekend beta, i can safely say, the op has never played swtor, the world is great, he dont know wtf hes raging about.
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
This
I didn't see any difference from SWTOR as the rest of those listed. I think we would all like mmos to be more like Skyrim or The Witcher 2 in how alive the worlds are. But we haven't seen that yet.
We wont see a world like Skyrim in the mmorpg genre in quite a while.
The tech isnt there imo. Think about all the little things in skyrim that would just break down once you place thousands of people in the world. Everything the system has to keep track off. its too much.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
There is absolutely no doubt that SWTOR or any Bioware game for that matter has better companions than the Elder Scrolls games. Companions have always been extremely weak in ES games, and are basically "tacked on." In BW games, they are always a major feature. So I agree with you there.
But as to your claim that Skryim has a less lifelike world than SWTOR? Give me a break.
I played the beta weekend in SWTOR, and I remember NPCs basically just standing there with a triangle over their head until you click on them and start a dialog sequence. Maybe some of them do have canned conversations, but do you honestly think that these conversations won't repeat themselves if you keep walking by the NPC? They have a finite amount of voice work to draw from...just like any other game.
In Skyrim NPCs actually have daily routines...they go to bed at night, go to work during the day, talk to one another. Yes, it's all an illusion, but I think it's a much stronger illusion than "stand in one place with triangle over head waiting to be clicked on." And it's not only that, the world design in Skyrim is much more lifelike too...well designed unique cities as opposed to vast expanses of emptiness that you find in SWTOR.
Anyway...there are plenty places you could attack Skyrim if you wanted to (balance, NPC AI, etc.), but lifelike world is not one of them.
The game world didnt feel static to me. I saw npcs walking around, leaning against walls, enjoying table dances. I got scanned by customs droids at random starports. Id eavesdrop on conversations where npcs were talking about work, the wife n kids, etc.
Sometimes Id attack a group of mobs and they let out a battlecry. I liked seeing creatures sitting or sleeping instead of constantly walking back n forth.
To each their own though. It worked for me. Others not so much.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
After playing Skyrim every games world feels static.
Personally compared to WoW, Lotro, WAR and RIFT (My last 4 themeparks) TOR is no more static than the ones i listed.
This
I didn't see any difference from SWTOR as the rest of those listed. I think we would all like mmos to be more like Skyrim or The Witcher 2 in how alive the worlds are. But we haven't seen that yet.
We wont see a world like Skyrim in the mmorpg genre in quite a while.
The tech isnt there imo. Think about all the little things in skyrim that would just break down once you place thousands of people in the world. Everything the system has to keep track off. its too much.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
Scripted? Well it's scripted for events done in a hidden and neat way unlike obvious "look i'm walking through this canyon and at the end of the canyon a cutscene will start" type of trigger you can find in SW: ToR. And the "Pressing this item will start a cutscene". How many scripted events are there in Skyrim where you are unable to interact? And how many are in SW: ToR? Well i'd say quite a few more in the latter.
Sure companions doesn't give you the in-depth conversations i can agree to that, and the AI is somewhat retarded at points and could be made to a much more enjoyable experience.
The NPCs breaking immersion is there in SW:ToR too, the ones saying the same lines over and over... On hutta starting area, that refugee or whatever he was talking about his wife who stole his money and left the planet, over and over. And what's the point of non-positional audio in the game, for voices not heard from dialogue? Very immersion-breaking, like they are talking directly in your ear. You have to check that chatbox just to know who is talking.
I simply don't know where you are pulling that evaluation from mister. Gotta see things for what they are, that's what i'm trying to say if your wonder what i'm ranting about. Comparing a Single-player RPG catered for one player and his/her total immersion against an MMORPG catered for thousands up to millions of players immersion produced to fit for that many makes the whole thing a bit bizarre and obvious that the MMORPG is going to be lacking immersion-wise.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
There is absolutely no doubt that SWTOR or any Bioware game for that matter has better companions than the Elder Scrolls games. Companions have always been extremely weak in ES games, and are basically "tacked on." In BW games, they are always a major feature. So I agree with you there.
But as to your claim that Skryim has a less lifelike world than SWTOR? Give me a break.
I played the beta weekend in SWTOR, and I remember NPCs basically just standing there with a triangle over their head until you click on them and start a dialog sequence. Maybe some of them do have canned conversations, but do you honestly think that these conversations won't repeat themselves if you keep walking by the NPC? They have a finite amount of voice work to draw from...just like any other game.
It's finite, but there's a lot more of it. It's not the same two lines over and over again, and not in the same voice you just heard the guy across the street use.
Quest givers...yeah. They are static. But if you ever played SWG during the "village" period, and had to chace Degeerin all over the damn place trying to turn in, you know that it's a good thing.
Ditto with Skyrim. I can't stand hunting all over town for an NPC to turn in a quest. Or have them vanish entirely for days. That's not entertaining....it's annoying.
In Skyrim NPCs actually have daily routines...they go to bed at night, go to work during the day, talk to one another. Yes, it's all an illusion, but I think it's a much stronger illusion than "stand in one place with triangle over head waiting to be clicked on." And it's not only that, the world design in Skyrim is much more lifelike too...well designed unique cities as opposed to vast expanses of emptiness that you find in SWTOR.
Yeah...they have their daily routines....like getting in my way when I'm trying to use the forge, or the wheel. Or locking up their shop in the middle of the day when I need to sell. Or picking a fight with the guards somehow and getting killed (had this happen in Riften...half the town got slaughtered by the guards before it was over).
And a lot of the quest givers in SWTOR aren''t just standing there. They are performing experiments in their lab, or torturing some poor schmuck.
Anyway...there are plenty places you could attack Skyrim if you wanted to (balance, NPC AI, etc.), but lifelike world is not one of them.
And the topper: When playing Skyrim....teeming with "life" though it be.....I feel like (and actually am) the ONLY REAL PERSON in the world.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
There is absolutely no doubt that SWTOR or any Bioware game for that matter has better companions than the Elder Scrolls games. Companions have always been extremely weak in ES games, and are basically "tacked on." In BW games, they are always a major feature. So I agree with you there.
But as to your claim that Skryim has a less lifelike world than SWTOR? Give me a break.
I played the beta weekend in SWTOR, and I remember NPCs basically just standing there with a triangle over their head until you click on them and start a dialog sequence. Maybe some of them do have canned conversations, but do you honestly think that these conversations won't repeat themselves if you keep walking by the NPC? They have a finite amount of voice work to draw from...just like any other game.
It's finite, but there's a lot more of it. It's not the same two lines over and over again, and not in the same voice you just heard the guy across the street use.
Quest givers...yeah. They are static. But if you ever played SWG during the "village" period, and had to chace Degeerin all over the damn place trying to turn in, you know that it's a good thing.
Ditto with Skyrim. I can't stand hunting all over town for an NPC to turn in a quest. Or have them vanish entirely for days. That's not entertaining....it's annoying.
In Skyrim NPCs actually have daily routines...they go to bed at night, go to work during the day, talk to one another. Yes, it's all an illusion, but I think it's a much stronger illusion than "stand in one place with triangle over head waiting to be clicked on." And it's not only that, the world design in Skyrim is much more lifelike too...well designed unique cities as opposed to vast expanses of emptiness that you find in SWTOR.
Yeah...they have their daily routines....like getting in my way when I'm trying to use the forge, or the wheel. Or locking up their shop in the middle of the day when I need to sell. Or picking a fight with the guards somehow and getting killed (had this happen in Riften...half the town got slaughtered by the guards before it was over).
And a lot of the quest givers in SWTOR aren''t just standing there. They are performing experiments in their lab, or torturing some poor schmuck.
Anyway...there are plenty places you could attack Skyrim if you wanted to (balance, NPC AI, etc.), but lifelike world is not one of them.
And the topper: When playing Skyrim....teeming with "life" though it be.....I feel like (and actually am) the ONLY REAL PERSON in the world.
And the best part of skyrim is when roleplaying together with my buddies. Or just social chatting in guildchat.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I simply don't know where you are pulling that evaluation from mister. Gotta see things for what they are, that's what i'm trying to say if your wonder what i'm ranting about. Comparing a Single-player RPG catered for one player and his/her total immersion against an MMORPG catered for thousands up to millions of players immersion produced to fit for that many makes the whole thing a bit bizarre and obvious that the MMORPG is going to be lacking immersion-wise.
I agree, 100%
So why does everyone here keep trying to compare SWTOR to Skyrim??
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
There is absolutely no doubt that SWTOR or any Bioware game for that matter has better companions than the Elder Scrolls games. Companions have always been extremely weak in ES games, and are basically "tacked on." In BW games, they are always a major feature. So I agree with you there.
But as to your claim that Skryim has a less lifelike world than SWTOR? Give me a break.
I played the beta weekend in SWTOR, and I remember NPCs basically just standing there with a triangle over their head until you click on them and start a dialog sequence. Maybe some of them do have canned conversations, but do you honestly think that these conversations won't repeat themselves if you keep walking by the NPC? They have a finite amount of voice work to draw from...just like any other game.
It's finite, but there's a lot more of it. It's not the same two lines over and over again, and not in the same voice you just heard the guy across the street use.
Quest givers...yeah. They are static. But if you ever played SWG during the "village" period, and had to chace Degeerin all over the damn place trying to turn in, you know that it's a good thing.
Ditto with Skyrim. I can't stand hunting all over town for an NPC to turn in a quest. Or have them vanish entirely for days. That's not entertaining....it's annoying.
In Skyrim NPCs actually have daily routines...they go to bed at night, go to work during the day, talk to one another. Yes, it's all an illusion, but I think it's a much stronger illusion than "stand in one place with triangle over head waiting to be clicked on." And it's not only that, the world design in Skyrim is much more lifelike too...well designed unique cities as opposed to vast expanses of emptiness that you find in SWTOR.
Yeah...they have their daily routines....like getting in my way when I'm trying to use the forge, or the wheel. Or locking up their shop in the middle of the day when I need to sell. Or picking a fight with the guards somehow and getting killed (had this happen in Riften...half the town got slaughtered by the guards before it was over).
And a lot of the quest givers in SWTOR aren''t just standing there. They are performing experiments in their lab, or torturing some poor schmuck.
Anyway...there are plenty places you could attack Skyrim if you wanted to (balance, NPC AI, etc.), but lifelike world is not one of them.
And the topper: When playing Skyrim....teeming with "life" though it be.....I feel like (and actually am) the ONLY REAL PERSON in the world.
First highlighted: That's why you have the quest tracker...it points you right to them no matter where they are .
Second highlighted: If the shop is locked...just wait a few hours and it will open. If someone is using the forge...just try to use it and they instantly leave. As for the guards thing, never happened to me, maybe it's a bug. Skyrim definitely has plenty of them.
Third highlighted: That's because it's single player .
Comments
I agree completely. The lack of dynamics in npc's, landscape and creatures makes the whole world look like a cardboard cutout on a stage. Combined with the lackluster models, the lack of character diversity both in players and npc's and the purely hotkey driven combat... I am very worried about the game's potential. There is simply no justification for the state the game is in right now, three weeks before launch.
The story may be alright, but it does not make up for the completely unimmersive gaming experience. SWTOR just isn't up to Bioware standards.
AC (retired); EQ (retired); DAoC (retired); Horizons (retired); EQII (retired); CoH (retired); AC II (tested); Lineage II (beta); Neocron (tested); Saga of Ryzom (beta); SWG (retired)...
Bioware ain't bioware anymore, enjoy Mass Effect 3 and put them to rest. That's what I'm going to do anyways.
I disagree completely - I've played all of those mmo's minus WAR and they all had much less of the static feel than this game. In all of those games you could interact with any npc for a quick bit of conversation, there were more ambient sounds and activity, more pathing for mobs and npcs, critters in the game, and above all the towns and cities just felt more alive. LOTRO had tons of that, npc ambient conversations all over the place, tons of world creatures, fish, bands playing, blacksmiths working, etc etc. Same for RIFT to an extent, although I would say LOTRO had the most. Even WOW had a lot of scripted npc events and activities in cities. And in general, I haven't played an mmo with as little mob movement or pathing as in this game.
I have to disagree. I think it is quite possible with the current technology. ONE COMPUTER can handle Skyrim's world. A bunch of servers could certainly handle it as well. Making an immersive world really hasn't been a goal of the vast, vast majority of MMOs though. After all, if the NPCs have lives and wander around, then that means you'll have to go and find them to turn in your quests and players might miss picking them up...and that's not really acceptable in the WoW model. Further, it's just a lot of worthless work when you'd just making quest hubs anyhow. GW2 is certainly moving in more of a Skyrim direction and showing some of the ways current technology can be harnessed to make a more immersive world.
Anyhow...in response to the op:
Despite my misgivings I decided to try out the beta test.
I didn't find the static world unimmersive. Playing with my brother, it seemed like a game I might pick up if it didn't have a monthly fee I did notice it was a bit static of course, but it didn't really bother me. That said, the dialogue and story parts were by far the best part of the game..unfortunately they are also a very small part of the game in terms of the time you spend doing them.
Then I went and played a Sith Inquisitor solo. My god the combat was tedious after an hour or so and it only got worse as I leveled. I felt like my abilities lacked enough punch and I didn't enjoy fighting for so long against a group. I am not sure how long a battle actually took and it might have only been 30 seconds, but it felt like forever. I think after playing WoW so long and then switching to normal games, I just can't stand the boring and repetitive nature of WoW-like combat systems (and yes, I know WoW didn't pioneer this).
I did find some aspects of the story rather immersion-breaking. They also have done the annoying ME thing where occasionally they give you a completely misleading description for a dialogue choice (ironically, usually when just writing out what you'd say would be quite feasible). Those are minor quibbles though.
I traveled to a bunch of planets during the weekend beta and all i can say is they have more mountains and rock formations segmenting the maps then the Himalaya mountrain ranges. Honestly i expected to see vast deserts in Tatooine and all i saw was sand squashed between mountains
I did as well, but I heard alot of people make this complaint. I wonder if hardware is to blame here? As in they havnt optimized the sounds of the game for some soundcard drivers? I dunno. I suspect there was sound problems this weekend cause they had the known bug where you could hear peoples companions as if they were right next to you. I'm sure that will all be fixed.
Back to the OP.. I saw alot of NPC interactions. And would frequently overhear conversations as I walked by. Like in the cantina on Tattooine I heard three imperial troopers talking as two males tried to get the female to dance for them, saying they had danced on stage there a bunch.. only to have her go thats good to hear and I'm sure our CO will love to hear it too. So very empire. I also stood on Balmorra and clearly recall finding it curous how flocks of birds were circling a mountain as giant cannons were shooting down passing star fighters. On that same planet I thought it was curious when I came across a rebel town to see a bunch of the rebels tending a field of veggies. Sooo dead worlds? Hrmm. I didn't as much experience that. I did think it was odd that sometimes NPCs would just be chilling against a wall and you couldnt click on them to make em say something or whatever. And yes, sometimes the mobs were very static. But it didnt detract from the game that much for me and actually I see alot of RP potential in the game. I for one will be playing on a RP server.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Tatooine and other non-starter worlds were broken up like that? Early reviews I read said they were huge open areas and the Devs talked about encouraging exploration. I didn't get off the starting planets, so I figured they were an exception.
I like the game but I understand where the OP is coming from.
Some of the places do feel like graveyards. The Senate Plaza are is one, why cant they have people milling about. In Aion you had those 3 kids skipping around the city that was high up in the sky, even UO had a schedule where the Sun came out or it got dark.
I suppose that would ruin the stroy telling part of the game because how would you explain a Senator in his office 24 hours a day with the Sun always being out.
Bioware spent so much time crafting thier MMO they did neglect to make certain parts of the world feel alive. They got the visuals down with the graphics and created some nice looking areas to look at, all with the backdrop of Star Wars music but they havent breathed any life into what they created.
Anyways, I pre-ordered. Despite some flaws the game at this point is fun and fresh. Rift was the same way for me, I loved it for the first 40 levels then honeymoon wore off after 3 months and I got bored very fast.
Been seeing a lot of this, didnt bother with the weekend beta myself as was in for a few month earlier in year.
Not sure whats changed since then TBH as the worlds did feel fairly alive back then, you would see packs of animals grazing, people going about their business in social areas. Even standing back from agro mobs and you could watch them go about their business until approached.
I'll see if I still have the footage but had some great videos of tuskens going about life until i waded in a murdered them all
Exactly, I don't know how you can say SWTOR is as lively as LoTRO that game had ambience hardcore. During my Beta experience and 6 hours of play time I only saw one NPC move the entire time, and it was a guy locked in a jail banging on the force field. At least in WAR there was still roaming guards, critters, and ambient sound effects. A lot of this is also to do with mobs as well, the mobs in SWTOR just sit in a group of 3-4 waiting to be killed. I hardly ever saw any mob move at all. There just is no pathing in this game for NPC/Mobs which makes leveling up a bit off to most people.
Don't get me wrong, I am planning to pre-order the game tomorrow still as I love the story aspect and companion/spaceship(as a house), and PvP(cant wait to try Illum, one of the first themeparks to offer a world objective zone at launch). However I am not sure how immersed I will be till this issue is fixed, I am hoping it comes in a patch within the next few month's.
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-Currently playing FFXIV, and BDO.
Originally posted by Drachasor
I have to disagree. I think it is quite possible with the current technology. ONE COMPUTER can handle Skyrim's world. A bunch of servers could certainly handle it as well.
The question isn't whether a bunch of servers could or could not handle an MMO version of Skyrim, with its massive, dynamic world.
The question is how dynamic is too dynamic? If every single one of those thousands of simultaneous players has an instant and permanent effect on the game world, then what? Literally the only people who could ever see the game as it was originally presented would be the first people to log in. After that, your entire game experience is directly tied to how everyone else before you acted.
There has to be a balance between player immersion and static moments because the game world has to accommodate thousands of players at the same time. The developers want to offer a particular experience to every player.
There are some great npc scenes, the shooting of the shopkeeper when you leave the starport of Tatooine is one of them. I want to see more of that and even be able to intervene.
Also, all of the NPC chatter was bugged or broken in the test. That is probably why so much of it was missed. I think they will fix / add alot more of it by launch.
Well that's good news if it's just a problem of getting it to work as opposed to it not being in the game at all. Maybe that explains why some people have said there is some of it while others, like myself, heard basically none of it in the last two weekend tests.
Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
Still would like to see more pathing / movement for npc's, mobs and world creatures (plus just more creatures in general), but that's uplifting to hear there is NPC chatter programmed in.
I don't think you could pack any more mobs in the areas where the mobs hang out. More NPCs would be good, if it didn't lead to lag.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I completely agree about mob placement and movement. It's a big step backwards. This is probably the most dissapointing thing in SWTOR for me.
It's not an issue of more mobs or even more npc's, but more movement, pathing, scripting for the ones that are there.
I actually find Skyrim's (and all elder scrolls games) world to be rather....cardboard. It's just a facade. How many times can you walk past the same NPC and have them recite the exact same line before it just shatters the immersion? Or have 3 different NPCs, in 3 different parts of the world, say the exact same line, in the exact same voice??
And companions....lifeless, dull puppets that follow you around and are just basically an extra sword / bow.
I love the game....but it feels so scripted, and artificial. it's more lifelike than Oblivion...but not much, really.
On the other hand, I've heard some great stuff out of SWTOR's npcs....and specific to that particular NPC. I don't hear mandalorians complaining about mudcrabs....errr....womprats. I hear them bragging, and joking, and talking about mandalorian stuff.
"you did not."
"I did."
"you saw a sand person without it's mask?? saw it's face and everything?"
"yep. couple of them jumped me out by the range. afterwards, I took the mask off one. got a good look."
"well what did he look like?"
"Dead."
Bioware seems to have put more effort into making their NPCs have individual personalities, instead of being the same NPC with a different face.
having played in the weekend beta, i can safely say, the op has never played swtor, the world is great, he dont know wtf hes raging about.
There is absolutely no doubt that SWTOR or any Bioware game for that matter has better companions than the Elder Scrolls games. Companions have always been extremely weak in ES games, and are basically "tacked on." In BW games, they are always a major feature. So I agree with you there.
But as to your claim that Skryim has a less lifelike world than SWTOR? Give me a break.
I played the beta weekend in SWTOR, and I remember NPCs basically just standing there with a triangle over their head until you click on them and start a dialog sequence. Maybe some of them do have canned conversations, but do you honestly think that these conversations won't repeat themselves if you keep walking by the NPC? They have a finite amount of voice work to draw from...just like any other game.
In Skyrim NPCs actually have daily routines...they go to bed at night, go to work during the day, talk to one another. Yes, it's all an illusion, but I think it's a much stronger illusion than "stand in one place with triangle over head waiting to be clicked on." And it's not only that, the world design in Skyrim is much more lifelike too...well designed unique cities as opposed to vast expanses of emptiness that you find in SWTOR.
Anyway...there are plenty places you could attack Skyrim if you wanted to (balance, NPC AI, etc.), but lifelike world is not one of them.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The game world didnt feel static to me. I saw npcs walking around, leaning against walls, enjoying table dances. I got scanned by customs droids at random starports. Id eavesdrop on conversations where npcs were talking about work, the wife n kids, etc.
Sometimes Id attack a group of mobs and they let out a battlecry. I liked seeing creatures sitting or sleeping instead of constantly walking back n forth.
To each their own though. It worked for me. Others not so much.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Scripted? Well it's scripted for events done in a hidden and neat way unlike obvious "look i'm walking through this canyon and at the end of the canyon a cutscene will start" type of trigger you can find in SW: ToR. And the "Pressing this item will start a cutscene". How many scripted events are there in Skyrim where you are unable to interact? And how many are in SW: ToR? Well i'd say quite a few more in the latter.
Sure companions doesn't give you the in-depth conversations i can agree to that, and the AI is somewhat retarded at points and could be made to a much more enjoyable experience.
The NPCs breaking immersion is there in SW:ToR too, the ones saying the same lines over and over... On hutta starting area, that refugee or whatever he was talking about his wife who stole his money and left the planet, over and over. And what's the point of non-positional audio in the game, for voices not heard from dialogue? Very immersion-breaking, like they are talking directly in your ear. You have to check that chatbox just to know who is talking.
I simply don't know where you are pulling that evaluation from mister. Gotta see things for what they are, that's what i'm trying to say if your wonder what i'm ranting about. Comparing a Single-player RPG catered for one player and his/her total immersion against an MMORPG catered for thousands up to millions of players immersion produced to fit for that many makes the whole thing a bit bizarre and obvious that the MMORPG is going to be lacking immersion-wise.
And the topper: When playing Skyrim....teeming with "life" though it be.....I feel like (and actually am) the ONLY REAL PERSON in the world.
And the best part of skyrim is when roleplaying together with my buddies. Or just social chatting in guildchat.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I agree, 100%
So why does everyone here keep trying to compare SWTOR to Skyrim??
see what I did here?
First highlighted: That's why you have the quest tracker...it points you right to them no matter where they are
.
Second highlighted: If the shop is locked...just wait a few hours and it will open. If someone is using the forge...just try to use it and they instantly leave. As for the guards thing, never happened to me, maybe it's a bug. Skyrim definitely has plenty of them.
Third highlighted: That's because it's single player
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?