Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
Patience being a virtue doesn't make it a challenge. It doesn't make it difficult or hard, it only makes it take a long time.
I don't think anyone's going to call a zero-dance-step 15 minute fight challenging just because it takes long.
Meanwhile any fight where it's all about the dance steps and the margin for error is small is obviously the textbook definition of challenge -- without skill you'll fail.
Except everyone just uses hotbars and macros cause they are too incompetent to use skill anyways though so what is the point?
In any case I don't understand what the difference between a hugely variable hierarchy based on twitch and one based on time is. Why is one more better? A top level twitch player is going to stomp your average person just like a top level time haver is going to stomp a casual player.
How is twitch going to make the game any fairer or more balanced when it produces the same result?
In any competition the results are going to exist on what is essentially a bell curve. Someone has to lose. Why is it better to lose based on "skill"?
Patience and perseverance in the face of adversity are actually measures by which humans are frequently judged and admired for having such traits so it makes sense that it carries through to MMO's as well. Not all skill/talent relates to quickness of hand.
As to raiding, there's nothing really different about old school raids vs newer ones such as in a game like WOW. It's really all just learning and memorizing the dance steps that the developers programmed into the encounter and then executing them properly.
The process hasn't changed over the years, and while newer MMO's have more dance steps to deal with, look at the interface mods they require to properly accomplish (and the amount of precision gearing/preparation that has to be done to complete the fight.
I recall old school Lineage 2 and DAOC dragon raids that I never managed to defeat, and few people on the server ever did. Not much like that in modern MMO's except for the absolute top level raid encounter which the Dev's just jack up the difficulty until they decide to let people beat the encounter.
Patience being a virtue doesn't make it a challenge. It doesn't make it difficult or hard, it only makes it take a long time.
I don't think anyone's going to call a zero-dance-step 15 minute fight challenging just because it takes long.
Meanwhile any fight where it's all about the dance steps and the margin for error is small is obviously the textbook definition of challenge -- without skill you'll fail.
Except everyone just uses hotbars and macros cause they are too incompetent to use skill anyways though so what is the point?
In any case I don't understand what the difference between a hugely variable hierarchy based on twitch and one based on time is. Why is one more better? A top level twitch player is going to stomp your average person just like a top level time haver is going to stomp a casual player.
How is twitch going to make the game any fairer or more balanced when it produces the same result?
In any competition the results are going to exist on what is essentially a bell curve. Someone has to lose. Why is it better to lose based on "skill"?
thing is the entire idea of what a 'skill' is is one sided.
1. is paitence a skill and a challenge? yes lance armstrong anyone?
2. does chess not require twitch skills but requires oher skills? totally.
the root of RPG games comes from stradgey games, that is its core. its a totally different skill set but it doesnt mean it doesnt require skill. I am all on board for making RPG games that also require twitch skill in fact I used to play one (darkfall) but its not a requirement nor is it a test of if a game requires 'skill' or not.
Additionally most people play MMO's BECAUSE of the long term commitment involved, they want goals that last longer than a movie.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
1. actually it totally does. You think lance armstrong isnt challenged? of course he is
2. if twitch skills become the main focus its no longer an RPG its then another type of game, peroid end of story. Totally valid for a type of game but for most MMOs and the history of MMO's it revolves around the concept of your success related to your character NOT your twitch skills.
That's more comparable to the 15 min boss fight stressing healer mana, which becomes a form of a skill-check (although it's a less interesting one because it only affects a subset of classes, and won't require nearly the quantity or magnitude of skill that a fight with many dance steps requires) But if we're specifically talking about an easily sustainable 15 minute fight, that clearly isn't challenging, it's just tedious.
Who said anything about twitch skill? My own definition of RPG specifically includes that they're light on twitch, actually.
When I say skill I mean skill -- not just twitch skill. Skill is decision (strategy/tactics) and execution (twitch). And RPGs are mostly about the former.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except everyone just uses hotbars and macros cause they are too incompetent to use skill anyways though so what is the point?
Oh. Right. Let's remove all decisionmaking from games because Cuathon here says players don't use skill. That's surely the path to higher quality games.
Again someone falsely assuming Skill means Twitch Skill. By that logic, you're saying Chess requires zero skill because there's zero twitch skill involved. Very clearly wrong. Chess requires strategy, which is skill.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except everyone just uses hotbars and macros cause they are too incompetent to use skill anyways though so what is the point?
Oh. Right. Let's remove all decisionmaking from games because Cuathon here says players don't use skill. That's surely the path to higher quality games.
Again someone falsely assuming Skill means Twitch Skill. By that logic, you're saying Chess requires zero skill because there's zero twitch skill involved. Very clearly wrong. Chess requires strategy, which is skill.
Why don't you specify what type of skill we are talking about if its not twitch? Because there is no RPG challenge content requiring strategic thinking like the kind that exists in chess. You might be able to claim there is chesslike content in an RTS or TBS game, mmo or not, but certainly not in an RPG. Further bosses in RPGs are static so even if there was an intellectual element you could just get the info offline. Chess is a variable game so you would have to figure out your strategy on the fly each game.
Why don't you specify what type of skill we are talking about if its not twitch? Because there is no RPG challenge content requiring strategic thinking like the kind that exists in chess. You might be able to claim there is chesslike content in an RTS or TBS game, mmo or not, but certainly not in an RPG. Further bosses in RPGs are static so even if there was an intellectual element you could just get the info offline. Chess is a variable game so you would have to figure out your strategy on the fly each game.
Skill is decisionmaking (strategy/tactics) and execution (twitch). And in RPGs it's always heavily weighted on the decisionmaking side (if twitch exists at all, it's very light.) Even the strategic side can be limited, but tactics are decisions made during fights
Bosses being static has to be true, or you won't be able to formulate tactics to defeat a certain boss. But then you also have a huge variety to the different bosses which exists, so players are always mastering some new trick.
Waiting is neither decisionmaking nor execution, so patience isn't skill and overcoming it isn't challenge.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Challenging to adults.. not kids. Nothing in WoW is as challenging as previous games before it. That is how (back in 2004) World of Warcraft got the name "carebear" from oldschool MMO gamers beta testing WoW. Because the game is incredibly dumb-down by the standards back then. Today, WoW is the bar in which all ignorance is measures.
So people who play WoW might assume that it's challenging because their young and playing new game and told these specific dungeons are harder than normal. That doesn't mean that the game is challenging, it just means THESE monsters are challenging. And that challenge is just a matter of deafeating a specific monster... that is as hard as the game will ever get.
Raids < do NOT = > challenging
Now, I am sure some raids may pose a challenge given the makeup of any given group. But I've been doing high-end raiding for 10 years... Oldschool player need more than monsters & raids as challenging content, & gameplay. The point that you bring World of Warcraft up, the point where you assume Challenging = Hardcore. Which implies your incapable of understanding how to challenge yourself, and instead think hardcore.
Most kids do not challenge themselves... at all.
That is why parents have to always proding behind them getting to do stuff (swim, dive off the board, jump in the deep end). Plus... a game with few instanced challenges, is NOT considered a challenging game...!
BTW if you think WoW raids are hard, or challenging... then your obvious one of the kids who doesn't understand how to challenge themselves. I run a household, run a business, and occasionally race cars, etc.. <-- I find all of that challenging day-to-day. I don't find reading up on a 50 man raid thats already been done 10,000 times as challenging...lol. Specially when everyone is wearing an item from this supposedly challenging beast.
It is nothing other than harder mob to kill. A few ultra-mobs in a game DOES NOT make the entire game challenging.
Adults want a challenging GAME...! (& are willing to pay for it
Most people define challenging in terms of something which takes skill to accomplish.
Early MMORPGs were often not about skill so much as perserverance in adversity. Adversity being tedium (timesinks) or hassles (crappy UIs.)
These are not the types of challenges actual adults want. They want something where skill is rewarded. WOW raids certainly provide that, though it's fair to criticize the leveling part of WOW for not being tailored to each individual as it should be.
To say raids aren't challenging is completely wrong though. Both knowing/forming a strategy and executing it (in other words: skill) are crucial to beating tougher raid bosses. The only criticism WOW deserves is that this same level of strategy and execution isn't required during leveling -- but to be fair, leveling isn't really a huge part of the game.
Sorry...
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I pretty much agree with what your saying, but i am not referring to the 95% trivial rubbish that wow pumps out that can be zerged, I am referring to the premium content - e.g Lich Hard mode 25, Anub 25 hard mode etc before any nerfs + achievments with limited tries per week. If this was old school, and 25 man (to make a fair comparison) it would be just as difficult (although i agree the route to get to that boss is joke now with pathetic trash). Consider, you do indeed have 25 * 30-40 year olds playing, with 20 years experience per player - it has to be difficult to challenge that level of player. For example, nowadays I would raid with perhaps 15 macros and actions all bound so I can react within 150 ms for any of those, reacting in some encounters too slowly, even 1/2 a second is a wipe.
But on the whole these fights are not the norm, and nerfed over time, which is the difference between old and new school - in old school you sucked it up and learned or failed. There is no nerf in 6 weeks. Old school was much more interesting and harder.
for 14 year olds - thats where normal mode + nerfs comes into play, blizzard fail.
Yah, I guess this is the biggest difference between old school and new school content. old school dev's werent afraid that the marketing nazi's looking over their shoulder and were free to develop truly sadistic content that abused their player base:) they developed HARD content and it stayed HARD. no nerfing 4 weeks down the road unless there was actual bugs within the script. if you cant beat the content, go home and cry to your mama about it. but if you want to raid, come prepared to die over and over again:D
some content were SOOOO hard that very few even beat it in the current expansion. for example, VERY few guilds beat Mata Muran during the Omens expansion, just like very few guilds even got to Txevu during the GoD expansion. yah there was some serious issues in the GoD expansion,(namely the content was designed for lvl 70 but the lvl cap was 65:D) but old schoolers kept at it and SOME even succeeded. the most notable achievement was the slaying of the sleeper on RZ. this was a mob that that was hard coded to be unslayable due to it's importance in the storyline for EQ2. however hundreds of deaths later from a combined effort of 3 end game raiding guilds on the most vicious server (full world pvp) was able to cause a GM to show up in order to SAVE the dragon from being slain:D (sleeper was later allowed to be slain anyway from public outcry and support for the RZ effort)
the only people that are "qualified" in discussing HARD content are people who have actually SEEN hard content. unfortunately, VERY few of the post WoW generation have even seen hard content being fought and the amount of effort it took to just make an inch of progress in the old content. the HARDEST part of a raid ISN'T about knowing what buttons to push, it's about KNOWING that when YOU sacrifice your life with THIS action, the rest of the raid KNOWS exactly what to do to benefit from your sacrifice and eventually achieve the goal that all 72 of you set out to accomplish:D
i suppose the difference is between listening to a band and listening to a symphony orchestra. 5 people playing instruments vs 100 people playing instruments. some say 5 people playing is harder, but there is no way 5 people is going to achieve the type of music that 100 people playing in perfect unison can play.
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like new games of course, but they will never compare to the community there use to be, back in the day the grind was all about getting with people and socializing while you kill shit and raiding was actually a challenge that toke 60+ people, nowadays these games are all about insta gratification, its all about the loot and wanting it right now, I love when people use WoW as a bench mark cause of its Subs, but what people don't realize is WoW has so many Subs cause it is a very easy game to play, i got a few nieces and nephews that play that game end game under 10 years old and most their friends do too, sadly the newer games are all about the loot instead of the old games where you had to actually achieve something and socializing was heavy. With games like WoW i can get a couple addons make a couple macros and raid with 2 fingers while watching TV and still be in the top 5 dps, that is the direction MMO are going in that older players aren't into, we like the new games but not the ease of the game.
I like new games of course, but they will never compare to the community there use to be, back in the day the grind was all about getting with people and socializing while you kill shit and raiding was actually a challenge that toke 60+ people, nowadays these games are all about insta gratification, its all about the loot and wanting it right now, I love when people use WoW as a bench mark cause of its Subs, but what people don't realize is WoW has so many Subs cause it is a very easy game to play, i got a few nieces and nephews that play that game end game under 10 years old and most their friends do too, sadly the newer games are all about the loot instead of the old games where you had to actually achieve something and socializing was heavy. With games like WoW i can get a couple addons make a couple macros and raid with 2 fingers while watching TV and still be in the top 5 dps, that is the direction MMO are going in that older players aren't into, we like the new games but not the ease of the game.
Several of you are basing your stance on older gamers preferring EQ style game design and younger players preferring the newer WOW style design, but I haven't seen data to support that. Could you link to the data you are basing this on?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's because new school players have not had the chance to play old school style mmorgs as the only aaa title is eve. I think some younger players will love them, but obviously kids are going to be less interested in building houses and politics.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef people have different opinions about difficulty.
I could argue a boss fight where 80 players zerg the boss down over 5 hours is hard. The counter argument would be tedium does not equal difficulty. I could argue technical boss fights where you must learn how to dance with a boss is hard. The counter argument being a game of memory is not difficult. A boss that if not downed in 30 seconds will butt rape could be difficult. then someone will counter with loading up on nothing but burst DPS is not hard. A boss that behaves randomly (maybe he will AOE, maybe not, maybe spawn 1 add, perhaps 50 adds, etc) could be difficult, but someone will argue that boss depends on pure luck. not skill.
etc.
Exactly! What one defines as "difficult" does not make it so for any other player.
As far as "Old School vs New School" goes, I just don't see it. From what I can tell, most games I have played are as tough and challenging as *I* decide to make them. Do I run to the nearest website and get all the "low down info" on the game and how to play it? I could. And that would make the game super easy for me. Do I ignore all information about the game mechanics and just bull my way through with hit or miss tactics about gameplay? I could, and it would make the game rather difficult.
Just because a game says "This here is a 10 man raid." does not mean you cannot try it with just 7 or 8 players. Sure would be more challenging, eh? Trying a raid without first seeing how everyone else and their dog beat it would make it more challenging, wouldn't it? Fighting mobs in your area is too easy? Pull more mobs or go to another area with tougher mobs. Does that up the challenging factor? Try fighting easy mobs with your off-skills to build them up and learn how they work. That sure sounds more challenging, doesn't it?
There are LOTS of ways to make a game, ANY game more challenging. Use one's own noggin' instead of relying on the developers to make things challenging.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
Not sure your point. EQ was 3 years old by then & 40+ servers. Crowding is crowding.. has no relivence to my comments, or game mechanics.
I am sure that johnny come l8tly who got caught up in the "flagging" and bravado within EQ had to wait for BOSS mobs to kill. But then-again, that wasn't the point of EQ.. it was turned into that, by people who couldn't raid.. so SOE flagged everything, so even people who do not want to commit to 4+ hours of adventuring, could use crutches and get flagged for parts of dungeons, so SOE could soft-serve a raid to them.
It was the fall of EQ. (flagging & instancing)
I sold my 1st EQ character around 2002 for $2,800.
Because the game got that stupid and that upward. Nothing in EQ after Velious & Kunark was outward content. So, for Sandboxers, there was little point in playing EQ anymore, the challenge was gone. I was solo flaggin dungeons, incredibly dumb and unfullfilling.
But noobs who wanted rare gear loved it.. they wanted to be Me, without a challenge. So these kids bought accounts to be kewl.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
Not sure your point. EQ was 3 years old by then & 40+ servers. Crowding is crowding.. has no relivence to my comments, or game mechanics.
I am sure that johnny come l8tly who got caught up in the "flagging" and bravado within EQ had to wait for BOSS mobs to kill. But then-again, that wasn't the point of EQ.. it was turned into that, by people who couldn't raid.. so SOE flagged everything, so even people who do not want to commit to 4+ hours of adventuring, could use crutches and get flagged for parts of dungeons, so SOE could soft-serve a raid to them.
It was the fall of EQ. (flagging & instancing)
I sold my 1st EQ character around 2002 for $2,800.
Because the game got that stupid and that upward. Nothing in EQ after Velious & Kunark was outward content. So, for Sandboxers, there was little point in playing EQ anymore, the challenge was gone. I was solo flaggin dungeons, incredibly dumb and unfullfilling.
But noobs who wanted rare gear loved it.. they wanted to be Me, without a challenge. So these kids bought accounts to be kewl.
A truly amazing reply, as many EQers would find absolutely nothing odd about what you said there, despite it being an incredible example of everything that is wrong with the 'old school' MMO gamer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
Not sure your point. EQ was 3 years old by then & 40+ servers. Crowding is crowding.. has no relivence to my comments, or game mechanics.
I am sure that johnny come l8tly who got caught up in the "flagging" and bravado within EQ had to wait for BOSS mobs to kill. But then-again, that wasn't the point of EQ.. it was turned into that, by people who couldn't raid.. so SOE flagged everything, so even people who do not want to commit to 4+ hours of adventuring, could use crutches and get flagged for parts of dungeons, so SOE could soft-serve a raid to them.
It was the fall of EQ. (flagging & instancing)
I sold my 1st EQ character around 2002 for $2,800.
Because the game got that stupid and that upward. Nothing in EQ after Velious & Kunark was outward content. So, for Sandboxers, there was little point in playing EQ anymore, the challenge was gone. I was solo flaggin dungeons, incredibly dumb and unfullfilling.
But noobs who wanted rare gear loved it.. they wanted to be Me, without a challenge. So these kids bought accounts to be kewl.
A truly amazing reply, as many EQers would find absolutely nothing odd about what you said there, despite it being an incredible example of everything that is wrong with the 'old school' MMO gamer.
I think that post was excellent. I'm sorry but I liked games that were an experience not a business. Sure if you didn't have a lot of time you couldn't get all the content but, SO WHAT? Making games a casual fest for business purposes ruins everything that was epic about rpgs. If everyone is max level than whats the point? There is no achievement involved.
Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day.
Not even sure if some of you are aware that some olden raids took 6~8 hours before you even got to the main mob.. and then you can totoally wipe and spend the next 2 days getting corpses out. Doing this is not hard (to sit @ keyboard and press buttons), but it takes perserverence & goal setting with like minded individuals to accoimplish things.
Now (today) it^ is all given away in armor sets, because those developers don't want to hurt the fragile egoes of the children growing up today.
Or maybe it's not character flaws on the partof developers and today's gamers. Maybe the people who had 6-8 hours to do nothing other than wait for one mob to appear and then another 3-4 hours to fight that one mob simply enjoyed a different type of perseverence in the face of adversity than most of the gamers do today.
This isn't an age thing. It's not a laziness thing. It's not an instant gratification thing. The truth is, for most people, waiting in line isn't a challenge or a hardcore experience. It's simply waiting in line - and there are many more entertaining things that people feel they could be doing with their leisure activitry, espeicially people that don't have 4 hours to do any one activity, let alone stand in line for four hours to go do it.
"Anything that a typical normal 14 year old can do.. isn't challenging to a 42 year old adult, whom has tackled much harder raids in their day."
I'm a 42-year old adult, as well, but I'm not about to waggle my cane at today's gamers when I can put just as much effort into trying to understand them.. Feel free to keep on about fragile egos and 14-year olds, though.
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
Not sure your point. EQ was 3 years old by then & 40+ servers. Crowding is crowding.. has no relivence to my comments, or game mechanics.
I am sure that johnny come l8tly who got caught up in the "flagging" and bravado within EQ had to wait for BOSS mobs to kill. But then-again, that wasn't the point of EQ.. it was turned into that, by people who couldn't raid.. so SOE flagged everything, so even people who do not want to commit to 4+ hours of adventuring, could use crutches and get flagged for parts of dungeons, so SOE could soft-serve a raid to them.
It was the fall of EQ. (flagging & instancing)
I sold my 1st EQ character around 2002 for $2,800.
Because the game got that stupid and that upward. Nothing in EQ after Velious & Kunark was outward content. So, for Sandboxers, there was little point in playing EQ anymore, the challenge was gone. I was solo flaggin dungeons, incredibly dumb and unfullfilling.
But noobs who wanted rare gear loved it.. they wanted to be Me, without a challenge. So these kids bought accounts to be kewl.
A truly amazing reply, as many EQers would find absolutely nothing odd about what you said there, despite it being an incredible example of everything that is wrong with the 'old school' MMO gamer.
I think that post was excellent. I'm sorry but I liked games that were an experience not a business. Sure if you didn't have a lot of time you couldn't get all the content but, SO WHAT? Making games a casual fest for business purposes ruins everything that was epic about rpgs. If everyone is max level than whats the point? There is no achievement involved.
Once again I disagree. The length of time something takes to get get to max level really has nothing to do with it being an experience of a business. It is what you do during that time that determines if it was an experience or a business. Having an event take a minium 4 hours is not an experience, that was strictly business now both the devsl and the players. Designing games so that only a fraction of a fraction of percentage get to do something is not an experience, it's a business. Thats what was wrong with the old design.
Sure you can have great epic quests and goals, and fine make it take a long time to get to end game(assuming their is one), but there is no need for 4+ hour sessions at a time, nor is there a need to wait 8+ hours to have your wack at a mob. That was just bad design.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
All older raids proved were who had absolutely nothing more important in their life than to waste away in a race to the bottom in a game with ridiculous time constraints. I put in my time in Classic 40 naxxramas, and you know what? never again. The design from beginning to end, raids as they are have been nothing but trash design to milk money out of people for one more month's subscription, not any measure of actual difficulty, skill or talent, just time and life consumption as a whole. I hope every old game like that stays exactly the way it is, because those games desvere the pimply faced neckbeared basement dwelling dew chugging grognards they harbor. Less in my games, I say. Keep them as hard as they like.
I was making grown adults cry in counterstrike tournaments when I was 14 without practicing even close to the level they were. Kids these days are better gamers probably than the lot who insults them. All age does is dull your senses, give you back pains, make you whinier thn the most entitled 16 year old, and rose tinted glasses so thick you could cut your nose.
I think that post was excellent. I'm sorry but I liked games that were an experience not a business. Sure if you didn't have a lot of time you couldn't get all the content but, SO WHAT? Making games a casual fest for business purposes ruins everything that was epic about rpgs. If everyone is max level than whats the point? There is no achievement involved.
When a game fails to entertain players who don't invest excessive amounts of time into them, that's not exactly a "so what?" moment.
In good MMORPGs, small time investment feels worthwhile and provides fun, and the game is still worth investing time into in the longterm -- a win/win situation.
Is it done for business purposes? Yes. Absolutely! Fun is great for business! If a game isn't fun unless excessive time is spent, it isn't as fun, and isn't going to do as well from a busines standpoint.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think that post was excellent. I'm sorry but I liked games that were an experience not a business. Sure if you didn't have a lot of time you couldn't get all the content but, SO WHAT? Making games a casual fest for business purposes ruins everything that was epic about rpgs. If everyone is max level than whats the point? There is no achievement involved.
When a game fails to entertain players who don't invest excessive amounts of time into them, that's not exactly a "so what?" moment.
In good MMORPGs, small time investment feels worthwhile and provides fun, and the game is still worth investing time into in the longterm -- a win/win situation.
Is it done for business purposes? Yes. Absolutely! Fun is great for business! If a game isn't fun unless excessive time is spent, it isn't as fun, and isn't going to do as well from a busines standpoint.
Implying those that didn't "invest excessive amounts of time" weren't entertained- which certainly wasn't true for me or my guilds. Fortunately we were all very casual for that game and had a wonderful server community that actually communicated particularly for scheduling times for multiple guilds/players to get together for more difficult content. On top of that as we played on a PvE server there was no push for everyone to be at the top tier for gear- after new content was released players still did old content for gear, for newer players that hadn't seen it (like Naggy and Vox raids even though we didn't need the stuff), or just for fun.
It certainly required more patience as we might only have gotten invited to a raid force for PoF or PoH once a month but that also kept us excited to raid rather than dreading it. I would never trade the experiences I had in that game for any of the improved "gameplay" (i.e. convenience) of the shallow games we have now.
Rubbish. You keep banging this old drum, but as raph would say, bad design can make lots of money. If a player joins a game that is designed for long term play and strategies and they are not happy that they are not getting instant satisfaction then they are in the wrong game. And what's more the game is working to a different business model, success does not need to be massive profit over everything.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I can agree with that. The very issue at hand is that many games have changed from a game good for the very few to something that seems to burn its old community for new. Honestly I wish EQ had stayed the same, that when I left it for World of Warcraft, I might have gotten better design than the first waves of raids were. The problem is that so many people take it that much like idiots who ranted on back when it was tabletop games and "Dungeons and Dragons" versus World of Darkness, and now even again new editions versus old, that there could only be somehow one true way to present a type of game within a genre, which is incredibly foolish to believe.
But make no mistake, for the people who loved the insane requirements of classic everquest raiding, World of Warcraft was never made for you, even if at one point you might have gotten into it for that. Probably the worst problem with it is there's not really anything that can be described as a competitive subset in MMORPGs outside of very particular games.Whereas normal players don't have to worry about FPS gods who compete in CPL leagues gracing a normal pubbie server for very long, this lack of distinction and tuning towards different player bases is just really not seen in MMOs, and raids were latched onto because of that as the best replacement. Honestly, I like the idea of raids as just being the same as 1-85 content, just a big more intense, and epic in nature.
Rubbish. You keep banging this old drum, but as raph would say, bad design can make lots of money. If a player joins a game that is designed for long term play and strategies and they are not happy that they are not getting instant satisfaction then they are in the wrong game. And what's more the game is working to a different business model, success does not need to be massive profit over everything.
Except that bad design making lots of money is WAR/Aion (plenty of box sales with little follow-through) while amazing design is WOW (record-breaking revenues.)
Except that there are examples of games which provide both instant fun and long-term play.
What different business model are you talking about? Any Box+Subscription game is on the same business model: get players interested before they've played (sell boxes) and then keep them playing (subscription fees).
"Success" certainly isn't massive profit over everything. But we're talking about the pursuit of delivering players reliable, convenient, frequent fun. This isn't some shady business practice, it's the act of developing games which serve their primary purpose: fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The answer is really fairly simple, pure themepark for those that want it aka wow/swtor. And a modern sandbox with a developer focus on sandbox elements, with themepark elements layered on top (a lot of themepark stuff is good). Look at what Jake song is creating, why would anyone think this is a bad thing? And it ain't focused on low time commitment/fast reward.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
Except everyone just uses hotbars and macros cause they are too incompetent to use skill anyways though so what is the point?
In any case I don't understand what the difference between a hugely variable hierarchy based on twitch and one based on time is. Why is one more better? A top level twitch player is going to stomp your average person just like a top level time haver is going to stomp a casual player.
How is twitch going to make the game any fairer or more balanced when it produces the same result?
In any competition the results are going to exist on what is essentially a bell curve. Someone has to lose. Why is it better to lose based on "skill"?
thing is the entire idea of what a 'skill' is is one sided.
1. is paitence a skill and a challenge? yes lance armstrong anyone?
2. does chess not require twitch skills but requires oher skills? totally.
the root of RPG games comes from stradgey games, that is its core. its a totally different skill set but it doesnt mean it doesnt require skill. I am all on board for making RPG games that also require twitch skill in fact I used to play one (darkfall) but its not a requirement nor is it a test of if a game requires 'skill' or not.
Additionally most people play MMO's BECAUSE of the long term commitment involved, they want goals that last longer than a movie.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That's more comparable to the 15 min boss fight stressing healer mana, which becomes a form of a skill-check (although it's a less interesting one because it only affects a subset of classes, and won't require nearly the quantity or magnitude of skill that a fight with many dance steps requires) But if we're specifically talking about an easily sustainable 15 minute fight, that clearly isn't challenging, it's just tedious.
Who said anything about twitch skill? My own definition of RPG specifically includes that they're light on twitch, actually.
When I say skill I mean skill -- not just twitch skill. Skill is decision (strategy/tactics) and execution (twitch). And RPGs are mostly about the former.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Oh. Right. Let's remove all decisionmaking from games because Cuathon here says players don't use skill. That's surely the path to higher quality games.
Again someone falsely assuming Skill means Twitch Skill. By that logic, you're saying Chess requires zero skill because there's zero twitch skill involved. Very clearly wrong. Chess requires strategy, which is skill.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why don't you specify what type of skill we are talking about if its not twitch? Because there is no RPG challenge content requiring strategic thinking like the kind that exists in chess. You might be able to claim there is chesslike content in an RTS or TBS game, mmo or not, but certainly not in an RPG. Further bosses in RPGs are static so even if there was an intellectual element you could just get the info offline. Chess is a variable game so you would have to figure out your strategy on the fly each game.
Skill is decisionmaking (strategy/tactics) and execution (twitch). And in RPGs it's always heavily weighted on the decisionmaking side (if twitch exists at all, it's very light.) Even the strategic side can be limited, but tactics are decisions made during fights
Bosses being static has to be true, or you won't be able to formulate tactics to defeat a certain boss. But then you also have a huge variety to the different bosses which exists, so players are always mastering some new trick.
Waiting is neither decisionmaking nor execution, so patience isn't skill and overcoming it isn't challenge.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
derp....
Nobody said anyone waited 6~8 hours for a mob... (lol)
Dungeon crawls took that long (or longer) to get to the main mob, etc. And raiding was not something you just did, your entire party had to prepare for it weeks in advance. Good guilds spent weeks finding rare herbs for rare potions, etc.
Secondly, making things up (ie: "waiting in line" for a mob?) and then argueing that irrelevant point, doesn't rebuttal anything I've said. Sorry!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Yah, I guess this is the biggest difference between old school and new school content. old school dev's werent afraid that the marketing nazi's looking over their shoulder and were free to develop truly sadistic content that abused their player base:) they developed HARD content and it stayed HARD. no nerfing 4 weeks down the road unless there was actual bugs within the script. if you cant beat the content, go home and cry to your mama about it. but if you want to raid, come prepared to die over and over again:D
some content were SOOOO hard that very few even beat it in the current expansion. for example, VERY few guilds beat Mata Muran during the Omens expansion, just like very few guilds even got to Txevu during the GoD expansion. yah there was some serious issues in the GoD expansion,(namely the content was designed for lvl 70 but the lvl cap was 65:D) but old schoolers kept at it and SOME even succeeded. the most notable achievement was the slaying of the sleeper on RZ. this was a mob that that was hard coded to be unslayable due to it's importance in the storyline for EQ2. however hundreds of deaths later from a combined effort of 3 end game raiding guilds on the most vicious server (full world pvp) was able to cause a GM to show up in order to SAVE the dragon from being slain:D (sleeper was later allowed to be slain anyway from public outcry and support for the RZ effort)
the only people that are "qualified" in discussing HARD content are people who have actually SEEN hard content. unfortunately, VERY few of the post WoW generation have even seen hard content being fought and the amount of effort it took to just make an inch of progress in the old content. the HARDEST part of a raid ISN'T about knowing what buttons to push, it's about KNOWING that when YOU sacrifice your life with THIS action, the rest of the raid KNOWS exactly what to do to benefit from your sacrifice and eventually achieve the goal that all 72 of you set out to accomplish:D
i suppose the difference is between listening to a band and listening to a symphony orchestra. 5 people playing instruments vs 100 people playing instruments. some say 5 people playing is harder, but there is no way 5 people is going to achieve the type of music that 100 people playing in perfect unison can play.
Your lack of familiarity with the subject material does not constitute lack of relevant rebuttal on my part.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like new games of course, but they will never compare to the community there use to be, back in the day the grind was all about getting with people and socializing while you kill shit and raiding was actually a challenge that toke 60+ people, nowadays these games are all about insta gratification, its all about the loot and wanting it right now, I love when people use WoW as a bench mark cause of its Subs, but what people don't realize is WoW has so many Subs cause it is a very easy game to play, i got a few nieces and nephews that play that game end game under 10 years old and most their friends do too, sadly the newer games are all about the loot instead of the old games where you had to actually achieve something and socializing was heavy. With games like WoW i can get a couple addons make a couple macros and raid with 2 fingers while watching TV and still be in the top 5 dps, that is the direction MMO are going in that older players aren't into, we like the new games but not the ease of the game.
Several of you are basing your stance on older gamers preferring EQ style game design and younger players preferring the newer WOW style design, but I haven't seen data to support that. Could you link to the data you are basing this on?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
As far as "Old School vs New School" goes, I just don't see it. From what I can tell, most games I have played are as tough and challenging as *I* decide to make them. Do I run to the nearest website and get all the "low down info" on the game and how to play it? I could. And that would make the game super easy for me. Do I ignore all information about the game mechanics and just bull my way through with hit or miss tactics about gameplay? I could, and it would make the game rather difficult.
Just because a game says "This here is a 10 man raid." does not mean you cannot try it with just 7 or 8 players. Sure would be more challenging, eh?
Trying a raid without first seeing how everyone else and their dog beat it would make it more challenging, wouldn't it?
Fighting mobs in your area is too easy? Pull more mobs or go to another area with tougher mobs. Does that up the challenging factor?
Try fighting easy mobs with your off-skills to build them up and learn how they work. That sure sounds more challenging, doesn't it?
There are LOTS of ways to make a game, ANY game more challenging. Use one's own noggin' instead of relying on the developers to make things challenging.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And..?
Not sure your point. EQ was 3 years old by then & 40+ servers. Crowding is crowding.. has no relivence to my comments, or game mechanics.
I am sure that johnny come l8tly who got caught up in the "flagging" and bravado within EQ had to wait for BOSS mobs to kill. But then-again, that wasn't the point of EQ.. it was turned into that, by people who couldn't raid.. so SOE flagged everything, so even people who do not want to commit to 4+ hours of adventuring, could use crutches and get flagged for parts of dungeons, so SOE could soft-serve a raid to them.
It was the fall of EQ. (flagging & instancing)
I sold my 1st EQ character around 2002 for $2,800.
Because the game got that stupid and that upward. Nothing in EQ after Velious & Kunark was outward content. So, for Sandboxers, there was little point in playing EQ anymore, the challenge was gone. I was solo flaggin dungeons, incredibly dumb and unfullfilling.
But noobs who wanted rare gear loved it.. they wanted to be Me, without a challenge. So these kids bought accounts to be kewl.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
A truly amazing reply, as many EQers would find absolutely nothing odd about what you said there, despite it being an incredible example of everything that is wrong with the 'old school' MMO gamer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that post was excellent. I'm sorry but I liked games that were an experience not a business. Sure if you didn't have a lot of time you couldn't get all the content but, SO WHAT? Making games a casual fest for business purposes ruins everything that was epic about rpgs. If everyone is max level than whats the point? There is no achievement involved.
Once again I disagree. The length of time something takes to get get to max level really has nothing to do with it being an experience of a business. It is what you do during that time that determines if it was an experience or a business. Having an event take a minium 4 hours is not an experience, that was strictly business now both the devsl and the players. Designing games so that only a fraction of a fraction of percentage get to do something is not an experience, it's a business. Thats what was wrong with the old design.
Sure you can have great epic quests and goals, and fine make it take a long time to get to end game(assuming their is one), but there is no need for 4+ hour sessions at a time, nor is there a need to wait 8+ hours to have your wack at a mob. That was just bad design.
Venge
All older raids proved were who had absolutely nothing more important in their life than to waste away in a race to the bottom in a game with ridiculous time constraints. I put in my time in Classic 40 naxxramas, and you know what? never again. The design from beginning to end, raids as they are have been nothing but trash design to milk money out of people for one more month's subscription, not any measure of actual difficulty, skill or talent, just time and life consumption as a whole. I hope every old game like that stays exactly the way it is, because those games desvere the pimply faced neckbeared basement dwelling dew chugging grognards they harbor. Less in my games, I say. Keep them as hard as they like.
I was making grown adults cry in counterstrike tournaments when I was 14 without practicing even close to the level they were. Kids these days are better gamers probably than the lot who insults them. All age does is dull your senses, give you back pains, make you whinier thn the most entitled 16 year old, and rose tinted glasses so thick you could cut your nose.
When a game fails to entertain players who don't invest excessive amounts of time into them, that's not exactly a "so what?" moment.
In good MMORPGs, small time investment feels worthwhile and provides fun, and the game is still worth investing time into in the longterm -- a win/win situation.
Is it done for business purposes? Yes. Absolutely! Fun is great for business! If a game isn't fun unless excessive time is spent, it isn't as fun, and isn't going to do as well from a busines standpoint.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Implying those that didn't "invest excessive amounts of time" weren't entertained- which certainly wasn't true for me or my guilds. Fortunately we were all very casual for that game and had a wonderful server community that actually communicated particularly for scheduling times for multiple guilds/players to get together for more difficult content. On top of that as we played on a PvE server there was no push for everyone to be at the top tier for gear- after new content was released players still did old content for gear, for newer players that hadn't seen it (like Naggy and Vox raids even though we didn't need the stuff), or just for fun.
It certainly required more patience as we might only have gotten invited to a raid force for PoF or PoH once a month but that also kept us excited to raid rather than dreading it. I would never trade the experiences I had in that game for any of the improved "gameplay" (i.e. convenience) of the shallow games we have now.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I can agree with that. The very issue at hand is that many games have changed from a game good for the very few to something that seems to burn its old community for new. Honestly I wish EQ had stayed the same, that when I left it for World of Warcraft, I might have gotten better design than the first waves of raids were. The problem is that so many people take it that much like idiots who ranted on back when it was tabletop games and "Dungeons and Dragons" versus World of Darkness, and now even again new editions versus old, that there could only be somehow one true way to present a type of game within a genre, which is incredibly foolish to believe.
But make no mistake, for the people who loved the insane requirements of classic everquest raiding, World of Warcraft was never made for you, even if at one point you might have gotten into it for that. Probably the worst problem with it is there's not really anything that can be described as a competitive subset in MMORPGs outside of very particular games.Whereas normal players don't have to worry about FPS gods who compete in CPL leagues gracing a normal pubbie server for very long, this lack of distinction and tuning towards different player bases is just really not seen in MMOs, and raids were latched onto because of that as the best replacement. Honestly, I like the idea of raids as just being the same as 1-85 content, just a big more intense, and epic in nature.
Except that bad design making lots of money is WAR/Aion (plenty of box sales with little follow-through) while amazing design is WOW (record-breaking revenues.)
Except that there are examples of games which provide both instant fun and long-term play.
What different business model are you talking about? Any Box+Subscription game is on the same business model: get players interested before they've played (sell boxes) and then keep them playing (subscription fees).
"Success" certainly isn't massive profit over everything. But we're talking about the pursuit of delivering players reliable, convenient, frequent fun. This isn't some shady business practice, it's the act of developing games which serve their primary purpose: fun.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D