How many times have you heard this: Game are suppose to be fun, not suppose to be a job. Or... Why do developer make content for the hardcore player which make up 1% of the gaming population.
I heard this enough on various games official forum.
One percent (1%) is a generalization and a strawman argument. I'm quite sure there are far more gamers who would appreciate more challenging content. Also challenging does not equal 'job', and non-challenging does not equal 'game' or 'fun'.
You're telling him he's got a strawman argument for making an assumption then making one up yourself?
As many have said in a more elaborate way OP, MMO's are dumber today because people as a whole (the new video game consumer base) are dumber.
Old MMOs and MUDs were created for the tabletop RPG players to play together online rather than traveling to each others houses. These players were thinkers. Contanstly calculating risk and reward, stat points, ability chances, percentage of die rolls. They also used their imaginations to build worlds, puzles, characters, and challenges for one another.
Today, its all about $, not the game. As others have stated, companies want the largest consumer base = streamling the game. That means dumb down the difficulty and give less player freedom. I hate this trend, as many others do, but what can we do as consumers? We are now the minority of our own creations, and that is why life sucks.
How many times have you heard this: Game are suppose to be fun, not suppose to be a job. Or... Why do developer make content for the hardcore player which make up 1% of the gaming population.
I heard this enough on various games official forum.
Thing is completing something hard and rare makes me feel like I've achieved something and my character is special. Anything I completed in SWTOR just feels so easy and like everyone else has done it, apart from Datacrons which are only hard because the jumping feels delayed and really bad. There were quests in SWG that were only completed by 100 or so players by the CU as I read the stats from way back when. That was because they were hidden and that made it really special to me because I was one of the people who completed some of them. Unlocking my Jedi back at the end of 2003 made me feel like I accomplished something major in the game and had to be one of the best times I ever had in a game. You'd never get that these days because apart from Death Knight in WoW every MMO wants to unlock everything right away.
The worst thing I think though are achievements, I get like 50 of them each round in BF3 and they all feel so meaningless. So much infact that I just skip the screen and don't watch what I achieved because they just want to throw anything out at you, there is even an achievement for losing......
As many have said in a more elaborate way OP, MMO's are dumber today because people as a whole (the new video game consumer base) are dumber.
Old MMOs and MUDs were created for the tabletop RPG players to play together online rather than traveling to each others houses. These players were thinkers. Contanstly calculating risk and reward, stat points, ability chances, percentage of die rolls. They also used their imaginations to build worlds, puzles, characters, and challenges for one another.
Today, its all about $, not the game. As others have stated, companies want the largest consumer base = streamling the game. That means dumb down the difficulty and give less player freedom. I hate this trend, as many others do, but what can we do as consumers? We are now the minority of our own creations, and that is why life sucks.
As many have said in a more elaborate way OP, MMO's are dumber today because people as a whole (the new video game consumer base) are dumber.
Old MMOs and MUDs were created for the tabletop RPG players to play together online rather than traveling to each others houses. These players were thinkers. Contanstly calculating risk and reward, stat points, ability chances, percentage of die rolls. They also used their imaginations to build worlds, puzles, characters, and challenges for one another.
Today, its all about $, not the game. As others have stated, companies want the largest consumer base = streamling the game. That means dumb down the difficulty and give less player freedom. I hate this trend, as many others do, but what can we do as consumers? We are now the minority of our own creations, and that is why life sucks.
The end.
I think the pendulum swings both ways. Yes, we have many games released and coming out which are and would be considered a themepark mmo. However, we still have games out there that are doing well with the more hard-core gaming theatre such as Eve Online.
Eve Online is a supreme example of that type of game that can and will survive through these types of pendulum swings. Not only that, we all found how loud the pocketbook can yell when the development path is perceived to be going the wrong way. CCP scaled back its other development project along with all but scrapping its path of EO development to turn their gaze upon polishing the current game and I have to say, as a long time EO player (around 6 years) it’s nice to see that change; as a gamer, it warms the heart to know that games development companies and games are still out there with their niche.
However, the hard facts are that the majority of gamers aren’t of that type. It’s not that those players aren’t of the caliber to play those games, it’s that they don’t want to. It’s not that they don’t have the fortitude to put the time and effort into such games but don’t want to put that time and effort into a game. Those gamers turn to a more streamlined game that gets them into the action faster and without as much time investment.
It’s obvious that there are a ginormous demographic of people who game on a regular/semi-regular basis. It’s also obvious that a great deal of that demographic are looking for near-instant gratification or quick escape into another world with friends. It’s quite unfair and arrogant to make the generalization that these people are somehow inept at facing challenge or put thought into their decisions because they aren’t looking for that in a game and so be it. For people to run around on these types of vocal minority boards and trash people who play those types of games is just bitterness.
With all that being said, there will be a time when someone develops a game we are all looking and praying for but people need to realize that it will likely not be a AAA title and not have a huge budget because the money these AAA themepark titles see won’t be there for the more hard-core titles. That’s just something we need to concede to and remind ourselves of.
As many have said in a more elaborate way OP, MMO's are dumber today because people as a whole (the new video game consumer base) are dumber.
Old MMOs and MUDs were created for the tabletop RPG players to play together online rather than traveling to each others houses. These players were thinkers. Contanstly calculating risk and reward, stat points, ability chances, percentage of die rolls. They also used their imaginations to build worlds, puzles, characters, and challenges for one another.
Today, its all about $, not the game. As others have stated, companies want the largest consumer base = streamling the game. That means dumb down the difficulty and give less player freedom. I hate this trend, as many others do, but what can we do as consumers? We are now the minority of our own creations, and that is why life sucks.
The end.
Well, mmorpg player were always a minority, even with wow 12 million, it is still so, the problem i see with dumbing down and stuff is, if it really has some desirable results, are we really attracting more players than before, and, more importantly, are we really keeping them?
I mean, is it really worth trying to attract demographics like console players, who more than not, play a game rarely, and are used to play a new game every few months, when there are more than enough players who like the "thinking", or less streamlined approach, on current games, on free servers (a free server with 15k people online, no bots, will jade your perspective...), on older games , minecraft, farmville...
I wonder if game designers are either incompetent, powerless and/ or nitwits.
Powerless in the sense of being bogged down with overarching rules from the management, and incompetent in the sense of working with whatever ideas they come up with. I guess not knowing how to code properly and solve problems are also something that lends to accusations of being incompetent, however I guess good management can work out such problems and hire additional people that know how to solve certain issues.
Nitwits, because their ideas are just not that great as they perhaps would like themselves to believe.
Whining : This is too difficult , it takes to long , this too boring, it's not my version/vision of how the game shuold be. etc....
Single Player Mentality : Most people would rather play alone then group up. The reasons , some people intolerant of others , others are just plain morons to be grouped with. These games are meant to be co-operative. If you can't play nice with others you shouldn't play.
Instant Gratification : People want or need to be done, first etc... They don't view mmo's as a journey , but a race to the top. Everything is about getting something the fastests or first. They are also the first to complain about content although they missed half the game.
Unfortunately the majority of the gaming community falls in one of these three categories. If you take offence to this post then you probably are one of the above listed.
Game Devs attempt to appeal to the widest possible audience they can because it's profitible, they hope. Unfortunatily the problems of scales tranlate. The more popular the game the larger the community , the more and larger the problems.
But Eve online did get dumbed down. The differences between the tutorial in 2005 and 2011 are astounding... You get tons of handy skills now and way more isk, and a very good introduction to what mission running is. They also took out "learning" skills and started everyone out with 20 in each stat and let you decide how to allocate the points, for free, twice.
If that's not dumbing down, I don't know what is.
That being said... go make more beginners play Eve, the grinder is not turning fast enough muahahahahaha!!
When I went back to EVE after 5 years, I was suprised that they now acutally had a proper tutorial, a working mission system and actual security measures on guild hangers. I was able to get into a battleship way faster than I could originally. Then I realized that they added proper mining ships and went 'what????'. EVE was all about mining in frigates or battleships with little cargo space and requiring you to have cargo vessels hauling the ore away while you mined into a container. The entire sovereignity thing was also a major slap in the face. Keeping control of 0.0 territory was all about killing everyone who came into your space and there was no fancy mechanics to handhold you through that. Let's not forget that you could no longer shoot people in empire space and get away with it.
If they go this way EVE will soon be just another WoW
But Eve online did get dumbed down. The differences between the tutorial in 2005 and 2011 are astounding... You get tons of handy skills now and way more isk, and a very good introduction to what mission running is. They also took out "learning" skills and started everyone out with 20 in each stat and let you decide how to allocate the points, for free, twice.
If that's not dumbing down, I don't know what is.
That being said... go make more beginners play Eve, the grinder is not turning fast enough muahahahahaha!!
When I went back to EVE after 5 years, I was suprised that they now acutally had a proper tutorial, a working mission system and actual security measures on guild hangers. I was able to get into a battleship way faster than I could originally. Then I realized that they added proper mining ships and went 'what????'. EVE was all about mining in frigates or battleships with little cargo space and requiring you to have cargo vessels hauling the ore away while you mined into a container. The entire sovereignity thing was also a major slap in the face. Keeping control of 0.0 territory was all about killing everyone who came into your space and there was no fancy mechanics to handhold you through that. Let's not forget that you could no longer shoot people in empire space and get away with it.
If they go this way EVE will soon be just another WoW
I'm really hoping that StarQuest Online has the same success as EvE. They both had a rocky start, and are both such great games. I just wonder what EvE did to bring in customers at first?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
MMO's are being dumbed down because the population is getting dumbed down in intelligence with each passing year. It's a shame, I love the older difficult games. I play English priston Tale because I can't stand newer MMOs. Way too easy.
1) Lowest common denominator for the customer base (ie, make it playable and desireable to the most simplest of gamers)
2) Put the least amount of effort possible in reaching the above customer base
The solution is also quite simple.
STOP PAYING FOR THESE GAMES
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I wonder if game designers are either incompetent, powerless and/ or nitwits.
Powerless in the sense of being bogged down with overarching rules from the management, and incompetent in the sense of working with whatever ideas they come up with. I guess not knowing how to code properly and solve problems are also something that lends to accusations of being incompetent, however I guess good management can work out such problems and hire additional people that know how to solve certain issues.
Nitwits, because their ideas are just not that great as they perhaps would like themselves to believe.
First generation game developers were gamers, paper and pencil gamers, game masters, dungeon masters, in other words NERDS, but brilliant nerds. They wanted to transform the paper and pencil games they loved into virtual worlds they could imerse their players into.
They were true artists, and creators, they were self taught men and yes women who were doing it for the very first time, there were no game engines, or building toolsets, there were no text books on how to write a code string for a desired outcome,
These designers had to achieve their intent through trial and error, and often in the process they discovered better results, often wildly different results than they had intended. In comparison they were the great inventors of a new age, like Franklin, Edison, Tesla, or Ford. These men were pioneers, who invented a way of doing things and much like the game industry the core of what they invented has not been changed simply reworked and put in a newer prettier package over and over.
Same thing happens with video games, game designers are not artists or creators, they are not brilliant, or nerds, often times they are not even gamers. They are tech school lemmings who learned to code the exact same way from the exact same text, they are incapable of intelligent thought, and godforbid they need a result that isnt pre-coded for them or a feature of the game building engine they are using.
I know this, I attend a lot of conventions and fan faires, industry events. I have spoken with game designes and asked they some pretty involved questions only to recieve ansers like, " Ummm I don't know because its pretty.. ", or " Huh? Our game does what? " .
Do not think for one minute this generation of game designer are geniuses of the industry, most of them are just as dumb or dumber than this generation of players.
Honestly the whole system has become an " Idocracy ", and I am really surprised the answer isn't, " Because it has electrolytes! "
1) Lowest common denominator for the customer base (ie, make it playable and desireable to the most simplest of gamers)
2) Put the least amount of effort possible in reaching the above customer base
The solution is also quite simple.
STOP PAYING FOR THESE GAMES
You nailed it on the head.
Fact is, while a more complex MMO appeals to a certain niche, those who enjoy more complex games are usually willing to play a more simple title, but it doesn't work that way in reverse.
Hence, developers go for the most profitable and popular design, and complex games have not been the way to bet from that perspective.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Entropia isn't bad as long as you don't mind spending a little money at first. I put in 20 dollars and I have about $22 dollars and the original 20 worth of gear. I probably just got lucky and can see how if you didn't the game could get boring really fast. I moved on to some other game, and haven't looked back at Entropia since.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
1) Lowest common denominator for the customer base (ie, make it playable and desireable to the most simplest of gamers)
2) Put the least amount of effort possible in reaching the above customer base
The solution is also quite simple.
STOP PAYING FOR THESE GAMES
You nailed it on the head.
Fact is, while a more complex MMO appeals to a certain niche, those who enjoy more complex games are usually willing to play a more simple title, but it doesn't work that way in reverse.
Hence, developers go for the most profitable and popular design, and complex games have not been the way to bet from that perspective.
Why build a Ferrari when customers are willing to pay the same price for a Yugo?
It's a symptom of society really. Collectively, we're a bunch of braindead sheep who will buy anything. Perhaps one day gamers will tire of being sheep...but I won't hold my breath. The Skinner Box is awful enticing to the average gamer of today.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I'll end up as some corp whore, i'll get bored, but i will learn to love her, like some screwed up arranged space marriage.
First though, i'll see how Entropia Universe plays...
Invested $300 into Entropia back years ago, recently went back sold off all my stuff and took the pay out option.
Two days later had a direct deposit to my bank account for almost $900.
Beats heck outta some games, $150 for game, $15 a month sub, maybe a $75 expansion or two. A few years later go back and nothing but more fees to reactivate.
Because the paying majority have more money then time and thus want to equation of them paying a subscription(or doing micro transactions) to give them as much active play time as possible... And why is this... Well because the original gamers simply grew up and got a job and a family that ate on to their hobby time.
The thread reads like the Hubris Handbook, with its own little "generated in other threads just like it" aphorisms and tropes.
:wave cane: Get off my lawn, damn kids!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They always get made easier and easier throughout their life and the same excusesgets thrown out. Either the population has become top heavy so the levels before end level need to be made easier to get people through the content quicker. Then you also have how peoples life style has changed and don't want to spend ages getting gear and don't have the time. I just see this as such bullshit, most people I knew playing games like UO, EQ, SWG Pre CU or EVE Online were in their 30s or 40s.
It just seems to be like Lazy mechanics in an effort to fix the flawed game design of the EQ based worlds. You don't see EVE Online getting dumbed down because CCP know what their game is about, they don't make bull shit changes in an effort to get casual players.
WoW was never too hard, it's now too easy and feels broken because of it. It feels like they're breaking their world mechanics jus to get you through the game quick with bullshit quests that always make you so over powered. The onlt problem I see is they added too many new zones and new levels which spread the population and made it so they needed to filter through to end level quicker.
EQ2 has to be the most dumbed down MMO I've ever played after SWG. I mean what was the point in making so you could never fail at crafting and you need less mats to craft other than the declining population? Just ruined the whole fun of the game for me and combine that with how you can solo the whole game easier than WoW and it's a shell of its it's former self.
Just hate Online games sometimes, why do they alwyas have to get dumbed down? The Only MMO I know that has stayed true to itself is EVE, all the others just seem to get dumbed down so badly.
I think you answered your own question......subscriptions.
I understand that doesn't make it any more easy of a reality to accept, but that is essentially the primary reason we've seen such a HUGE lowering of the general learning curve in MMOs.
Something else to consider, games like Utlima Online, Ever Quest & SWG: Pre CU / NGE had FAR less competition than modern MMORPGs.....hence, less of a driving force to throw out the major staples of traditional MMORPG gaming in the name of remaining economically viable.
I'll explain...
Traditional MMORPGs appealed to a niche audience of gamers. As you pointed out, most gamers playing were outside of the general gamer demographic.....Older w/ more discretional income. (Box Fee + Reoccuring Monthly Fee + Cost of Internet Access + Cost of PC) Many of these folks also had some history with D&D board games, or other RPGs.
Game developers for MMORPGs created games for this audience.....NOT with the intention of trying to maximize subscriptions. THIS is why EVE is viewed as a good example of Sandbox gaming. They know who their audience is....and play to their wants & needs, versus adding mechanics & features to appeal to casual gamers. On the flip side of that....EVE also ONLY has about 300k or so subscribers.
For perspective purposes.....if we agree that EVE is a good example of a sandbox game...then we can assume that the upside of a good sandbox game is somewhere between 500-300k subs. Lots of room for error here, and this is most certianly not a scientific analysis.....but otherwise a good educated guess.
If we look at a failed "ThemePark" MMORPG, the sub numbers are ALSO somewhere around 500-300k.
So the upside of a well put together sandbox can HOPE to get as many subs as a poorly designed run of the mill themepark.
THATS what the game publishers (the companies that bank roll MMO projects) are looking at when they decide where the least risky place to invest their money is in. Hence.....most of the Tripple A quality games released in the last 5-6 years have all been Themepark MMOs.
Developers have to FURTHER make things more accessable and easy to get, for the casual gamers, because they are not ONLY competing with other themepark MMOs for casual MMO gamers.....they are also having to compete with other casual entertainment.....IE, facebook games, iphone / android games, console games, FPS games, RTS games. etc.
Old Sandbox developers didn't have to worry about their traditional MMORPG gaming audience leaving their game to go put some time into Bejewled.....because traditional sandbox MMO gamers wanted a very specific thing that only traditional MMORPGs could provide.
NOT the case with todays MMORPG audience. They can get their casual gaming fix from any number of entertainment outlets. So developers for Casual MMORPGs are constantly under pressure to lower the bar and allow for more "accessabillity" to more players to keep them interested (atleast for the short term)
Comments
You're telling him he's got a strawman argument for making an assumption then making one up yourself?
Duh big red truck. Games get dumbed down because the majority of players these days are idiots.
Notice I did not say gamers, honestly " gamers " died with everquest.
Every game since everquest has been designed for players, and players are idiots.
As many have said in a more elaborate way OP, MMO's are dumber today because people as a whole (the new video game consumer base) are dumber.
Old MMOs and MUDs were created for the tabletop RPG players to play together online rather than traveling to each others houses. These players were thinkers. Contanstly calculating risk and reward, stat points, ability chances, percentage of die rolls. They also used their imaginations to build worlds, puzles, characters, and challenges for one another.
Today, its all about $, not the game. As others have stated, companies want the largest consumer base = streamling the game. That means dumb down the difficulty and give less player freedom. I hate this trend, as many others do, but what can we do as consumers? We are now the minority of our own creations, and that is why life sucks.
The end.
Thing is completing something hard and rare makes me feel like I've achieved something and my character is special. Anything I completed in SWTOR just feels so easy and like everyone else has done it, apart from Datacrons which are only hard because the jumping feels delayed and really bad. There were quests in SWG that were only completed by 100 or so players by the CU as I read the stats from way back when. That was because they were hidden and that made it really special to me because I was one of the people who completed some of them. Unlocking my Jedi back at the end of 2003 made me feel like I accomplished something major in the game and had to be one of the best times I ever had in a game. You'd never get that these days because apart from Death Knight in WoW every MMO wants to unlock everything right away.
The worst thing I think though are achievements, I get like 50 of them each round in BF3 and they all feel so meaningless. So much infact that I just skip the screen and don't watch what I achieved because they just want to throw anything out at you, there is even an achievement for losing......
You are my hero! Bravo well said
I think the pendulum swings both ways. Yes, we have many games released and coming out which are and would be considered a themepark mmo. However, we still have games out there that are doing well with the more hard-core gaming theatre such as Eve Online.
Eve Online is a supreme example of that type of game that can and will survive through these types of pendulum swings. Not only that, we all found how loud the pocketbook can yell when the development path is perceived to be going the wrong way. CCP scaled back its other development project along with all but scrapping its path of EO development to turn their gaze upon polishing the current game and I have to say, as a long time EO player (around 6 years) it’s nice to see that change; as a gamer, it warms the heart to know that games development companies and games are still out there with their niche.
However, the hard facts are that the majority of gamers aren’t of that type. It’s not that those players aren’t of the caliber to play those games, it’s that they don’t want to. It’s not that they don’t have the fortitude to put the time and effort into such games but don’t want to put that time and effort into a game. Those gamers turn to a more streamlined game that gets them into the action faster and without as much time investment.
It’s obvious that there are a ginormous demographic of people who game on a regular/semi-regular basis. It’s also obvious that a great deal of that demographic are looking for near-instant gratification or quick escape into another world with friends. It’s quite unfair and arrogant to make the generalization that these people are somehow inept at facing challenge or put thought into their decisions because they aren’t looking for that in a game and so be it. For people to run around on these types of vocal minority boards and trash people who play those types of games is just bitterness.
With all that being said, there will be a time when someone develops a game we are all looking and praying for but people need to realize that it will likely not be a AAA title and not have a huge budget because the money these AAA themepark titles see won’t be there for the more hard-core titles. That’s just something we need to concede to and remind ourselves of.
Well, mmorpg player were always a minority, even with wow 12 million, it is still so, the problem i see with dumbing down and stuff is, if it really has some desirable results, are we really attracting more players than before, and, more importantly, are we really keeping them?
I mean, is it really worth trying to attract demographics like console players, who more than not, play a game rarely, and are used to play a new game every few months, when there are more than enough players who like the "thinking", or less streamlined approach, on current games, on free servers (a free server with 15k people online, no bots, will jade your perspective...), on older games , minecraft, farmville...
I wonder if game designers are either incompetent, powerless and/ or nitwits.
Powerless in the sense of being bogged down with overarching rules from the management, and incompetent in the sense of working with whatever ideas they come up with. I guess not knowing how to code properly and solve problems are also something that lends to accusations of being incompetent, however I guess good management can work out such problems and hire additional people that know how to solve certain issues.
Nitwits, because their ideas are just not that great as they perhaps would like themselves to believe.
Three reasons :
Whining : This is too difficult , it takes to long , this too boring, it's not my version/vision of how the game shuold be. etc....
Single Player Mentality : Most people would rather play alone then group up. The reasons , some people intolerant of others , others are just plain morons to be grouped with. These games are meant to be co-operative. If you can't play nice with others you shouldn't play.
Instant Gratification : People want or need to be done, first etc... They don't view mmo's as a journey , but a race to the top. Everything is about getting something the fastests or first. They are also the first to complain about content although they missed half the game.
Unfortunately the majority of the gaming community falls in one of these three categories. If you take offence to this post then you probably are one of the above listed.
Game Devs attempt to appeal to the widest possible audience they can because it's profitible, they hope. Unfortunatily the problems of scales tranlate. The more popular the game the larger the community , the more and larger the problems.
When I went back to EVE after 5 years, I was suprised that they now acutally had a proper tutorial, a working mission system and actual security measures on guild hangers. I was able to get into a battleship way faster than I could originally. Then I realized that they added proper mining ships and went 'what????'. EVE was all about mining in frigates or battleships with little cargo space and requiring you to have cargo vessels hauling the ore away while you mined into a container. The entire sovereignity thing was also a major slap in the face. Keeping control of 0.0 territory was all about killing everyone who came into your space and there was no fancy mechanics to handhold you through that. Let's not forget that you could no longer shoot people in empire space and get away with it.
If they go this way EVE will soon be just another WoW
I'm really hoping that StarQuest Online has the same success as EvE. They both had a rocky start, and are both such great games. I just wonder what EvE did to bring in customers at first?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
MMO's are being dumbed down because the population is getting dumbed down in intelligence with each passing year. It's a shame, I love the older difficult games. I play English priston Tale because I can't stand newer MMOs. Way too easy.
It's quite simple really, it's all about MONEY.
1) Lowest common denominator for the customer base (ie, make it playable and desireable to the most simplest of gamers)
2) Put the least amount of effort possible in reaching the above customer base
The solution is also quite simple.
STOP PAYING FOR THESE GAMES
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
First generation game developers were gamers, paper and pencil gamers, game masters, dungeon masters, in other words NERDS, but brilliant nerds. They wanted to transform the paper and pencil games they loved into virtual worlds they could imerse their players into.
They were true artists, and creators, they were self taught men and yes women who were doing it for the very first time, there were no game engines, or building toolsets, there were no text books on how to write a code string for a desired outcome,
These designers had to achieve their intent through trial and error, and often in the process they discovered better results, often wildly different results than they had intended. In comparison they were the great inventors of a new age, like Franklin, Edison, Tesla, or Ford. These men were pioneers, who invented a way of doing things and much like the game industry the core of what they invented has not been changed simply reworked and put in a newer prettier package over and over.
Same thing happens with video games, game designers are not artists or creators, they are not brilliant, or nerds, often times they are not even gamers. They are tech school lemmings who learned to code the exact same way from the exact same text, they are incapable of intelligent thought, and godforbid they need a result that isnt pre-coded for them or a feature of the game building engine they are using.
I know this, I attend a lot of conventions and fan faires, industry events. I have spoken with game designes and asked they some pretty involved questions only to recieve ansers like, " Ummm I don't know because its pretty.. ", or " Huh? Our game does what? " .
Do not think for one minute this generation of game designer are geniuses of the industry, most of them are just as dumb or dumber than this generation of players.
Honestly the whole system has become an " Idocracy ", and I am really surprised the answer isn't, " Because it has electrolytes! "
You nailed it on the head.
Fact is, while a more complex MMO appeals to a certain niche, those who enjoy more complex games are usually willing to play a more simple title, but it doesn't work that way in reverse.
Hence, developers go for the most profitable and popular design, and complex games have not been the way to bet from that perspective.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm going to resub to EvE.
I'll end up as some corp whore, i'll get bored, but i will learn to love her, like some screwed up arranged space marriage.
First though, i'll see how Entropia Universe plays...
Entropia isn't bad as long as you don't mind spending a little money at first. I put in 20 dollars and I have about $22 dollars and the original 20 worth of gear. I probably just got lucky and can see how if you didn't the game could get boring really fast. I moved on to some other game, and haven't looked back at Entropia since.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Why build a Ferrari when customers are willing to pay the same price for a Yugo?
It's a symptom of society really. Collectively, we're a bunch of braindead sheep who will buy anything. Perhaps one day gamers will tire of being sheep...but I won't hold my breath. The Skinner Box is awful enticing to the average gamer of today.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Invested $300 into Entropia back years ago, recently went back sold off all my stuff and took the pay out option.
Two days later had a direct deposit to my bank account for almost $900.
Beats heck outta some games, $150 for game, $15 a month sub, maybe a $75 expansion or two. A few years later go back and nothing but more fees to reactivate.
Why...?
Because the paying majority have more money then time and thus want to equation of them paying a subscription(or doing micro transactions) to give them as much active play time as possible... And why is this... Well because the original gamers simply grew up and got a job and a family that ate on to their hobby time.
This have been a good conversation
To appeal to a bigger audience.
My gaming blog
Fuck you growing up:
I don't wanna grow up
I don't wanna grow up
If growing up
Means being like you
Then I don't want
To be like you
Recycled trash
It's déjà vu
Na na na na na na
Na na na na na na
I don't wanna grow up
I don't wanna grow up
You're grown up
Told what to do
You're suit can't hide the truth
You're a fool
And I refuse
To be like you
Na na na na na na
Na na na na na na
Na na na na na na
I don't wanna grow up
I don't wanna grow up
What Will It Be Like When I Get Old
Will I Still Hop On My Bike, And Ride Around Town
Will I Still Want To Be Someone, And Not Just Sit Around
I Don'T Want To Be Like Other Adults
Cause They'Ve Already Died
Cool And Condescending, Fossilized
Will I Be Rich Will I Be Poor, Will I
Still Sleep On The Floor
What Will It Be Like When I Get
What Will I Be Like When I Get
What Will It Be Like When I Get Old
Will I Still Kiss My Girlfriend And Try To Grab Her Ass
Will I Still Hate The Cops And Have No Class
They Say Hey Act Your Age And I'M Immature
Will I Do Myself Proud Or Only What'S Allowed
What Will It Be Like When I Get
What Will I Be Like When I Get
What Will It Be Like When I Get Old
Will I Sit Around And Talk About The Old Days
Sit Around And Watch T.V. I Never Want To Go That Way
Never Burn Out Not Fade Away
As I Travel Through My Time Will I Like What I Find
What Will It Be Like When I Get
What Will I Be Like When I Get
What Will It Be Like When I Get Old
The thread reads like the Hubris Handbook, with its own little "generated in other threads just like it" aphorisms and tropes.
:wave cane: Get off my lawn, damn kids!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think you answered your own question......subscriptions.
I understand that doesn't make it any more easy of a reality to accept, but that is essentially the primary reason we've seen such a HUGE lowering of the general learning curve in MMOs.
Something else to consider, games like Utlima Online, Ever Quest & SWG: Pre CU / NGE had FAR less competition than modern MMORPGs.....hence, less of a driving force to throw out the major staples of traditional MMORPG gaming in the name of remaining economically viable.
I'll explain...
Traditional MMORPGs appealed to a niche audience of gamers. As you pointed out, most gamers playing were outside of the general gamer demographic.....Older w/ more discretional income. (Box Fee + Reoccuring Monthly Fee + Cost of Internet Access + Cost of PC) Many of these folks also had some history with D&D board games, or other RPGs.
Game developers for MMORPGs created games for this audience.....NOT with the intention of trying to maximize subscriptions. THIS is why EVE is viewed as a good example of Sandbox gaming. They know who their audience is....and play to their wants & needs, versus adding mechanics & features to appeal to casual gamers. On the flip side of that....EVE also ONLY has about 300k or so subscribers.
For perspective purposes.....if we agree that EVE is a good example of a sandbox game...then we can assume that the upside of a good sandbox game is somewhere between 500-300k subs. Lots of room for error here, and this is most certianly not a scientific analysis.....but otherwise a good educated guess.
If we look at a failed "ThemePark" MMORPG, the sub numbers are ALSO somewhere around 500-300k.
So the upside of a well put together sandbox can HOPE to get as many subs as a poorly designed run of the mill themepark.
THATS what the game publishers (the companies that bank roll MMO projects) are looking at when they decide where the least risky place to invest their money is in. Hence.....most of the Tripple A quality games released in the last 5-6 years have all been Themepark MMOs.
Developers have to FURTHER make things more accessable and easy to get, for the casual gamers, because they are not ONLY competing with other themepark MMOs for casual MMO gamers.....they are also having to compete with other casual entertainment.....IE, facebook games, iphone / android games, console games, FPS games, RTS games. etc.
Old Sandbox developers didn't have to worry about their traditional MMORPG gaming audience leaving their game to go put some time into Bejewled.....because traditional sandbox MMO gamers wanted a very specific thing that only traditional MMORPGs could provide.
NOT the case with todays MMORPG audience. They can get their casual gaming fix from any number of entertainment outlets. So developers for Casual MMORPGs are constantly under pressure to lower the bar and allow for more "accessabillity" to more players to keep them interested (atleast for the short term)
What this person said, they want more subscribers to make more money, so they make it appeal to larger audiences.