I understand where the OP is coming from, he's basically asking why bother PVPing, what do I get as a reward? ( because in the end, MMORPG's are all about chasing the carrot on the stick, unlike their FPS counterparts)
And while standard theme park MMO's largely focus on special PVP gear, there's all sorts of other incentives developers can include to incentive PVP gameplay. (because no, just doing it "for fun" isn't enough for many folks)
1) Control of territory, the resources within it, and denial of them to outsiders, a la EVE
2) Control of premade Castles or Keeps, see DAOC, Lineage 2, Aion and some others.
3) Control/Defense of player made structures against hostiles
4) Advancement of avatar by learning new skills, a la DAOC and how realm pts earned from pvp kills could be spent on new PVP and PVE abilities.
5) Special faction wide powers such as DAOC gave with the control of relic objects which had to be stolen from and stored in special relic keeps.
6) Loot. Yep, let people loot their kills in some faction, can prove to be a pretty strong reward.
7) Special rankings in charts, tables etc. (Probably one of the least interesting IMO unless, of course, you are one of the people at the top of the list of course.)
I'm sure I overlooked a few.
And to all those saying that skill based MMORPG's are the superior way to PVP, again, that is only true if your keyboard skills are in the top 25% or so of the spectrum.
MMO developers long ago realized that 75% of their player base was not going to like an activity they had no chance in winning, so they created equalizers by basically rewarding longevity in the game (which brought in more revenue, see how that works) that basically made the people who played (and paid) the most have the most power.
Actual player skill was never really a strong factor in their design, except with a few notable titles such as Planetside.
Sounds like ANET might actually be catering to both sides of the PVP coin, if so a smart move which I applaud.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's a reason PVP is always better on the way up to cap and stinks once you get max level. PVP gear is and will always be a terrible way to balance your game.
They better have some serious rankings that really allow people something to strive for, because otherwise it sounds like it isnt a mmo. just a LoL with slightly different character controls and camera.
So you mean it will actually have enjoyable gameplay due to an actual skill ceiling? The reason for playing is because mastery of the game is a challenge instead of chasing armor shaped carrots? Where do I sign up?
Okay I am not a real big fan of the GW universe, but what it did have that was so great was the pvp and the lack of pvp gear. If you wanted to be good in pvp you did not grind out hours to get just a ittle better gear... the gear just maxed out and looked different. It was the players current build/ moddifications that were on weapons and armor that determined if they were good at pvp or how well they could do against certain classes.
Some of the best pvp in MMO history and even tho I don't really know about playing GW2 I hope they keep it that good. In my opinion WoW ain't got shit on GW's pvp.
The reward to pvp was the fun we had. Thats all we needed. Who cares what you get as long as its fun.
Maybe it's been said but it's worth to mention that this game focuses very little on progression in BOTH pvp and pve. You can get upgrades in pve, but from what the devs have been saying it'll be pretty darn easy to get the best end game pve gear. So while you might have to spend like 2-3 weeks to get from 1 to max and best gear; after that you really only play for fun. Just like in pvp.
I think it's important that you approach GW2 knowing that it's not a game about progressing your character. Sure, going from level 1 to max will be about progression, but that will be a rather quick affair like in most modern games. Myself I'm on the fence here. On the one hand I like developing my character through gear once I've hit max level. On the other hand I know I suffer through very boring things to do so. And should I really waste time on boring gameplay just to get a slightly better character?
GW2 doesn't need PVE or PVP gear separation because it doesn't have RAID or PVE gear in the first place. All gear is using the same scale so all gear is pvp or pve. Theres not some stupid PVE only or PVP only stats like in WOW. There are no raid only dungeon Phat lootz in guild wars, theres just loot no matter where you get it.
GW2 has PvP gear so that you can choose what you want to put on it, like in GW1 with runes and insignias, without messing up your PvE gear or spending a lot of money or resources to get those runes/insignias. I am not at all saying runes and insignias will be in GW2, But I am assuming that there will be something somewhat like it, and I remember reading something about armor and weapon add-ons. The point of PvP gear in GW1 was to be able to put anything on it that you desired, and I'm assuming the same thing is most likely going to apply with GW2. You will be able to use PvE gear in PvP, but it won't be freely customizable with add-ons. However, you will NOT be able to use gear that you customized in PvP that was for PvP in the PvE area. I'm surprised I've not read anyone saying anything about this in response to why you need seperate PvP gear, even if it is identical in base stats to PvE gear and can have the same things added to it and has no difference other than skins.
OP: You've played SWTOR and yet you are still asking why having no PVP gear is good?
I thought that game made it pretty blatantly clear why PVP gear ruins PVP. Hint: Try PVP'ing in the level 50 bracket without expertise lately?
Stupid dev's turning PVP into mindless gear grinds... like the PVE grind wasn't enough for them?
Bring on GW2!
No to your first question, because I have 690 expertise (about 3 pieces away fom max). I find that you can go get the gear the same way I did, how is that not balanced? Oh right, because rng also hurts you somehow, or whatever other whiny things you guys have to say. Yet you accuse me of whining.. odd.
because you are a casual who wants to spend 20 minutes a day playing and expect to be as good as me in a mmo is a joke. This isnt the fps genre. With gw2 its taking a step in that direction (casuals rejoice!)
When I am older I will probably change my stance, but as a college student I like competitive gear races. Sorry you dont.
Competitive gear races allow for people who have more time to spend to be able to destroy anyone who has less time to play. Personally I think if you're a college student you should be spending more time on school than a game.
Guild Wars 2 is making it so that people who don't play a lot can stand a chance if they can understand everything the game has to offer and understand all of the game mechanics. Typically, a person who can spend more time on a game will still be more skilled than someone who cannot because they have more skill. The way I see it, the only reason someone would enjoy gear races and grinding to become better at PvP is because they're good at doing mindless things for a very long time in order to not have to think a lot to destroy another player. Ultimately, gear races are for try-hards, and Guild Wars 2 PvP will actually be a test of skill and strategy. There will still be try-hards in Guild Wars 2, but the skilled players will still be able to defeat them. Shear "Time-Played" isn't going to define how well you do in a PvP battle.
However, there will still be ways to show that you've spent more time in PvP by unlocking titles/gear that are unlocked through a combination of time and skill (more time = less skill ; more skill = less time). Guild Wars 2 is not made for casual players: it's made to have a test of skill.
Now there are people comparing Guild Wars 2 to First-Person Shooters. This is just absord. There are far more strategy and build combinations in Guild Wars 2 than in any FPS. Guild Wars 2 doesn't simply rely on reaction time and moving right, but knowing when to do what and knowing what skills to take into battle to counteract certain things or to cause a certain effect. In FPS, the main thing is: I like this gun because of this, these perks are my playing style, now lets see how well I can camp or how good my reaction time and aim is. Guild Wars 2 is a hundred times more in-depth than any FPS.
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
tl;dr: I am hardcore and approve of what this game has, even if the 5v5 team based stuff is for casuals.
Funny how you say the Structured PvP is for Casuals, just because it lacks the mandatory gear grind to upgrade from cannon fodder and become viable. Well in the end, Guild Wars 2's Tournament mode is shaping up to be the only MMORPG around that can truly become an e-sport, with cash prizes. Yet you still say it's for casual.
If you're such a hardcore PvP'er then why do you even need the gear to beat someone? Shouldn't your own skill be enough, or do you need that extra bit of insurance, against those lesser geared casuals. lol
But I do enjoy the gear race, which I usaully win.
SWTOR is not competitive. if it was I wouldnt even be looking at other mmo's. The gear grind is a bit hard (although now nerfed to pieces) and I enjoyed that but they still have no rankings or arenas.
GW2 is looking to be competitive without a main staple of mmo's in the past, which is wierd.
when a MMO is giving me a different character to play in 5v5 objective game play, it is no longer a competitve mmo. it is now literally a moba.
Maybe my thread should read: Why play gw2 when dota 2 is coming out with more prize money tournaments?
This is only for pvp, which I will play exclusively. PVE is boring to me and after public quests in WAR I see the pve in gw2 to be the same kind of idea with a bit more flair. (ooo the town isnt usable anymore? good thing they sell level 5 gear.)
I just dont see how this is now considered a mmo on the pvp side with no pvp gear progression, and only titles and stuff..
even LoL has levels with new skills and runes you have to grind...
this is in response to multiple posts, thats why it probably reads choppy.
And again, it has been said that you get gear in WvWvW. So there will be gear progression? I dont see why they would give gear in pvp if it didnt have stats after saying something along the lines of "you will get gear you NEED entirely through pvp as well".
Oh and all of you are whining about pvp gear, whether you think you are or not. Just as I am probably whining about lack of pvp gear, even though I assume I am not.
also, the original title is: why is no pvp gear good? I believe the answer that most of you have said is because you lack the time or desire to "grind" it. is this wrong?
edit: spelling and stuff
I think it needs to be pointed out that there WILL be stats on gear. However in GW2 the stat increase per upgrade will be ALOT smaller than people are used to in MMO's. Gear will give a SLIGHT advantage but the majority of kills/deaths will still be based off skill.
As to why play GW2 when DOTA2 is comming out? That can be said about ANY MMO. Why play an MMO for competative PvP if you are ONLY looking for PvP. MOBAs are designed strictly around PvP only. So really singling out GW2 on this is verry silly.
This is incorrect.
There will be gear that has maximum base-statistical value which can be acquired relatively easy at level 80, and there will be upgrades to that gear based on what build you're running and what traits you're using.
Guild Wars 2's structured PvP is isolated from the rest of the game. Skills are changed to function differently in PvP and all players are put on COMPLETELY equal footing. However, the argument claiming that there's no reason to get GW2 over a MOBA is ridiculous. Can I be a Charr Guardian at the Battle of Kylo that has destructible environments and all the cool skills that Guild Wars 2 has in any MOBA/ARTS you know of?
Also, there is not "gear progression". Leveling up through the normal PvE content is not progressing gear. That's progressing levels, and getting gear that's appropriate for your level. Gear progression is grinding for the express purpose of gaining statistical increases on gear through traditional higher level dungeons/raids, or PvP. Guild Wars 2 will not have gear progression in that sense. It will still have increases of stats of gear throughout the leveling experience.
Thank you! Finally someone with very good sense to come and clear things up with this guy. Thank you for supplying information to refute this jackman guy instead of what everyone else has been doing. Really restores my faith in people
tl;dr: I am hardcore and approve of what this game has, even if the 5v5 team based stuff is for casuals.
Funny how you say the Structured PvP is for Casuals, just because it lacks the mandatory gear grind to upgrade from cannon fodder and become viable. Well in the end, Guild Wars 2's Tournament mode is shaping up to be the only MMORPG around that can truly become an e-sport, with cash prizes. Yet you still say it's for casual.
If you're such a hardcore PvP'er then why do you even need the gear to beat someone? Shouldn't your own skill be enough, or do you need that extra bit of insurance, against those lesser geared casuals. lol
+9001
Also to add it's not JUST 5v5 lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You'll get plenty of rewards for being excellent in PVP.
None of them will help you kill others more easily once you have them.
You decide if it's worth playing now. I'll be there. See you on the feild if you are too.
There are global and individual rewards available in World vs World combat.
World benefits
Territories and control points within the map will confer benefits to the world that controls them, such as faster energy/health regeneration, increased drop rate or increased experience gain for a time.
Individual rewards
Players can gain experience and level their character, including rangers charming pets,[9] entirely in World PvP. Killing people in World vs World gives the player loot which means a player doesn't need to leave World PvP to get better gear.
Taken from the wiki^^
So, you DO get your armor, though it wont be statisticlly better, it may have unique looks that shows you got it from PVPing. so its an epeen i spose.
You say u get plenty of rewards for being excellent in pvp.
The rewards u describe though seem crap to me.
World benefits u describe are completely unintresting.
Individual rewards u describe are of none importance also since u say they have only cosmetic purpose.
So when u quote the OP's question your answer should be : No there are no rewards cause i dont think any serious player considers rewards the ones u describe.
Sorry if the rewards don't fit your liking, but most of that post i made is Quoted from the wiki and NOT my own words. I wont tell the op "no there are no rewards" as you say because then i'd be lying, there ARE rewards. And in my opinion, very decent ones. I dont want PVP gear that equals to me being 10 levels over my competitors. I'd like titles that don't boost stats, awesome looking PVP gear that DOESNT have ANY enhanced stats, etc. There will be things to work towards getting, don't you worry oh carrot-on-a-stick lover. There just won't be god-mode stuff.
Its not exactly about my liking ,its about a general complain of many ppl . Inever said anything about you lying or anything. I just encouraged u to say directly the truth. What is the truth? Well cosmetic and aesthetic gear is like some reward pets in wow ,special mounts and meaningless stuff like that. Doesnt affect anything in the game its just for aesthetic reasons and therefore it doesnt intrest lots of players.
As for a big conversation like the i do ot dont want gearrewards to extinguish me from others during rated pvp arena style matches. Lets cut the bullshit. Yes the majority of ppl would like gear with better stats as rewards from being good in pvp. Why? Well its amotive for 1st. 2ndly i want something after playing 5-6 months in endgame pvp that makes me better than a newcomer i dont know if hes more skilled or not but it makes senses to have some better items. Some players are older in the game,and its logical to have better gear. If its about a 100% equal competition lets go play call of dutty or any 1st person shooter im in. But here its supposed to be a medieval fantasy mmo RPG. Rpg's are about gear. Gear in Gw 2 is absent in terms of stats. Thats ahuge minor for the game. We can debate for whole weeks ofc and not agree for that but that isa fact. Improvement of the toon via gear is one of the more ethistic elemenelts in roleplaying games,its something we love and nothing ANET will say will excuse gear's absence.
I understand that GW1 fans were used to not having gear in endgame either from pve or pvp but u have to think about 1-2 million players that quitted wow and will buy this game , and at least 1 more million gamers from all the rest mmorpgs that will also join gw2.All these , like the rest role playign gamers are used to improve characters via gear. thats all im saying.And Anet will have to think about that too. Unless ofc they want their gw1 fans inside only.
In red and large font: This, my good sir, is an OPINION.
Don't be upset because GW2 is going to be a completely different kind of MMORPG. If you don't like it, don't play it.
If you go into this game with preconceived notions of what an MMORPG should be, then you aren't going to have an open mind enough to see this game for what it is and truly enjoy it.
tl;dr: I am hardcore and approve of what this game has, even if the 5v5 team based stuff is for casuals.
Funny how you say the Structured PvP is for Casuals, just because it lacks the mandatory gear grind to upgrade from cannon fodder and become viable. Well in the end, Guild Wars 2's Tournament mode is shaping up to be the only MMORPG around that can truly become an e-sport, with cash prizes. Yet you still say it's for casual.
If you're such a hardcore PvP'er then why do you even need the gear to beat someone? Shouldn't your own skill be enough, or do you need that extra bit of insurance, against those lesser geared casuals. lol
+9001
well said.
Personally I don't like it when I get max pvp gear because pvp then becomes too easy. My RIFT cleric virtually one shot's undergeared players.
Kinda ruins the challenge when I know I'll win.
/prays to god to make GW2 more like League of Legends where it's about skill not gear.
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
I've spent way more than 30 minutes learning about the game.
Sorry if the fact that your game has a CASH SHOP causes you to have to claim that people dont know what their talking about. You even said "Generally" so you really dont know what they are going to sell. I've read most all of the news articles and i've seen the videos and interviews. Its a cash shop game. They even slip in little comments like "we're going to try"...."and generally we're only going to sell" Guess I just dont dont fall for the hype and actually read what they say.
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
I've spent way more than 30 minutes learning about the game.
Sorry if the fact that your game has a CASH SHOP causes you to have to claim that people dont know what their talking about. You even said "Generally" so you really dont know what they are going to sell. I've read most all of the news articles and i've seen the videos and interviews. Its a cash shop game. They even slip in little comments like "we're going to try"...."and generally we're only going to sell" Guess I just dont dont fall for the hype and actually read what they say.
GW2 =cash shop.....spin it however you want to.
At this point there is no reason to believe that the cash shop will be much different from GW1... cosmetics, character slots, bank space, and... after a while skill unlock books for pvp characters
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
I've spent way more than 30 minutes learning about the game.
Sorry if the fact that your game has a CASH SHOP causes you to have to claim that people dont know what their talking about. You even said "Generally" so you really dont know what they are going to sell. I've read most all of the news articles and i've seen the videos and interviews. Its a cash shop game. They even slip in little comments like "we're going to try"...."and generally we're only going to sell" Guess I just dont dont fall for the hype and actually read what they say.
GW2 =cash shop.....spin it however you want to.
If you've been following this game at all you'd know what you're saying is utter tripe. The game's core design doesn't even support play to win due to how it's gear structure is aimed. It's safe to say you're either an idiot, ignorant, or just plain trolling.
There aren't many buy to play games even on the market. Guild Wars 1 was one of them and THEIR cash shop had exactly what I expected. Namely skins, extra storage room, cosmetics, and character slots.
God this thread needs to die. OP has been told time and time again why the majority of MMO players find no statistical PVP gear grind a good thing. If you don't like it, THAT IS YOUR OPINION. If you need to prove your e-peen is bigger than everyone by grinding gear more in other games then by all means go for it. If you want to use strategy, tactics, and skill, well then GW2 is what your looking for.
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
I've spent way more than 30 minutes learning about the game.
Sorry if the fact that your game has a CASH SHOP causes you to have to claim that people dont know what their talking about. You even said "Generally" so you really dont know what they are going to sell. I've read most all of the news articles and i've seen the videos and interviews. Its a cash shop game. They even slip in little comments like "we're going to try"...."and generally we're only going to sell" Guess I just dont dont fall for the hype and actually read what they say.
GW2 =cash shop.....spin it however you want to.
At this point there is no reason to believe that the cash shop will be much different from GW1... cosmetics, character slots, bank space, and... after a while skill unlock books for pvp characters
In red: every skill is unlocked upon entering PvP, as well as equipment. Therefore they have no need to sell skill unlock books for PvP Characters.
Anyone that wants PvP gear that gives you an advantage over other players for having it needs to just quit life. How about actually being good at the game on even ground?
That's exactly why I can't stand PvP in TOR. Unless you're some nolifer that's already grinded Battlemaster gear, you get your face stomped in by said nolifers that have said Battlemaster gear. It's complete garbage.
So, why do stats like Resilience (WoW) and Valor / Vengeance (Rift) exist?
The developers at Trion say that it is to separate best-in-slot itemization. The BiS for PVP should not be the same for PVE and vice versa. Essentially, this attempts to reward each type of player (PvP/PvE) for doing their own thing.
On paper, it's a sound concept. When you consider a stat-heavy game like WoW or Rift, who should have the better stats in PvP: the person who raids or the person who does PvP? If a player puts their focus to a certain playstyle, it makes sense to reward them for their choice.
In the early WoW days when Vanilla raiding gear continued to scale while PvP gear did not move (and was rank-based for a while), players that had superior PvE gear were able to really hurt most PvP players. Mages became infamous for Presence of Mind > Pyroblast burst that was put through the roof due to raid gear, not to mention gear-dependent classes like Warriors getting a huge boost when put into powerful gear.
Burning Crusade introduced Resilience (though it only reduced damage/probability of critical strikes). It took until Cataclysm for Blizzard to make resilience the PvP stat it is now - straight up damage reduction versus players.
In between those, Wrath happened. For those who played WoW during Wrath, they probably knew what happened here. Insane amounts of stat inflation on gear caused damage to go through the roof. Venruki exploded to a Beastcleave comp in MLG Orlando, and if you were wearing cloth, the chances of you being killed in one or two global cooldowns was at an all time high. While MMO combat isn't something to get excited about in the first place, getting globalled was poor design.
---
In PvE, there is a thing called raid progression. You gain gear from dungeons which will allow you to complete the first tier of raids. You then gain gear from that tier that will propel you to harder content. The first raid tiers are usually easier and have simple mechanics for you to learn, while the later tiers are all about adding more complex encounters and pushing your raid to the limit. The game transitions you slowly from easy to hard so while you might struggle on the way up, you are not hitting brick walls every time you get your guild together.
In PvP, there is no difficulty progression. From max level, you are put in the same bracket as everyone else at max level. You could be in greens and going up against the guy swinging around Shadowmourne. To obtain the gear that will help you PvP better, you need to go through a grueling period of being pubstomped all day every day for a few months to become a viable damage dealer - arguably the most basic of PvP roles. Even if you wanted to heal, at low gear levels, not only was your output poor, but you could be destroyed by the other team instantly.
Not only was this a problem, but players with high tier Wrath raid gear could come into PvP and do extremely well due to their amazing damage output. In fact, some best-in-slot items for PvPers included high tier raid gear that they would need to be in a serious raiding guild to get. It turned out that if you wanted to be the best PvPer that you could possibly be, you had to raid. The old implementation of Resilience was not working, and PvPers were sacrificing a lot of stats to get resilience that didn't really help all that much versus the insane burst that happened in Wrath.
So Blizzard introduced the Resilience update 4.0.1. To this day, however, players without Resilience who queue for PvP are still wet paper embroidered with free honor to the people in top season gear. Resilience fixed the crazy burst of Wrath but it was put on an item and not introduced as a buff to ensure that PvP gear and PvE gear remained powerful in their own domains and not each other's. Getting gear through PvP is the same grueling experience that hasn't been addressed yet.
Turns out that when Rift launched, the same thing happened with Valor. Players who were below rank 4 prestige were just speed bumps that posed no threat to the 1k valor beasts. Normalization and Vengeance didn't do much to help, and even Taugrim agrees that low-ranked players are still forced to get stomped all the time. So now they are doing even more PvP work in 1.7. We'll have to see how that goes.
The bottom line - gear dependant games like WoW / Rift will all suffer power creep as new content is released that has better gear. This power creep will affect PvP and it will be hard hitting to new players who are in bewilderment that the Pyro/Dom mage just sent them back to spawn with three spells.
The hope is that GW2 will do away with the gap in power between low-endgame and high-endgame gear. GW1's armor system allowed for players to quickly and easily gain max-stat armor and gear, with more expensive armors being for cosmetic purposes. While GW2 expanded the level cap and have mentioned how gear carries specific stats now, it will take some actual hands-on with the game to see how the gear affects PvP.
But without pvp gear, what keeps me pvping in guild wars 2?
I'm sorry because this is going to offend, but if you PvP for gear, you're bad. Moreover, you're most probably hopelessly bad and should consider quitting PvP for good.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
The hope is that GW2 will do away with the gap in power between low-endgame and high-endgame gear. GW1's armor system allowed for players to quickly and easily gain max-stat armor and gear, with more expensive armors being for cosmetic purposes. While GW2 expanded the level cap and have mentioned how gear carries specific stats now, it will take some actual hands-on with the game to see how the gear affects PvP.
Nice history lesson Khaeros and I myself have experience the nightmare that was Rift's PvP as a Rank 1 & 2 prestiege player, being nothing but a free kill to all the Rank 6+ geared players. However with regards to your last point... Gear will only have a great effect on your character in WvWvW. Whereas in structured PvP, everyone is given their PvP gear, along with weapons, skills, traits and boosted to max. So gear won't really play much of a role there, only skill and your build.
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I understand where the OP is coming from, he's basically asking why bother PVPing, what do I get as a reward? ( because in the end, MMORPG's are all about chasing the carrot on the stick, unlike their FPS counterparts)
And while standard theme park MMO's largely focus on special PVP gear, there's all sorts of other incentives developers can include to incentive PVP gameplay. (because no, just doing it "for fun" isn't enough for many folks)
1) Control of territory, the resources within it, and denial of them to outsiders, a la EVE
2) Control of premade Castles or Keeps, see DAOC, Lineage 2, Aion and some others.
3) Control/Defense of player made structures against hostiles
4) Advancement of avatar by learning new skills, a la DAOC and how realm pts earned from pvp kills could be spent on new PVP and PVE abilities.
5) Special faction wide powers such as DAOC gave with the control of relic objects which had to be stolen from and stored in special relic keeps.
6) Loot. Yep, let people loot their kills in some faction, can prove to be a pretty strong reward.
7) Special rankings in charts, tables etc. (Probably one of the least interesting IMO unless, of course, you are one of the people at the top of the list of course.)
I'm sure I overlooked a few.
And to all those saying that skill based MMORPG's are the superior way to PVP, again, that is only true if your keyboard skills are in the top 25% or so of the spectrum.
MMO developers long ago realized that 75% of their player base was not going to like an activity they had no chance in winning, so they created equalizers by basically rewarding longevity in the game (which brought in more revenue, see how that works) that basically made the people who played (and paid) the most have the most power.
Actual player skill was never really a strong factor in their design, except with a few notable titles such as Planetside.
Sounds like ANET might actually be catering to both sides of the PVP coin, if so a smart move which I applaud.
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There's a reason PVP is always better on the way up to cap and stinks once you get max level. PVP gear is and will always be a terrible way to balance your game.
So you mean it will actually have enjoyable gameplay due to an actual skill ceiling? The reason for playing is because mastery of the game is a challenge instead of chasing armor shaped carrots? Where do I sign up?
OP take a look at this http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/2012/01/guild-wars-2-pvp-roundtable/ answers your questions.
Okay I am not a real big fan of the GW universe, but what it did have that was so great was the pvp and the lack of pvp gear. If you wanted to be good in pvp you did not grind out hours to get just a ittle better gear... the gear just maxed out and looked different. It was the players current build/ moddifications that were on weapons and armor that determined if they were good at pvp or how well they could do against certain classes.
Some of the best pvp in MMO history and even tho I don't really know about playing GW2 I hope they keep it that good. In my opinion WoW ain't got shit on GW's pvp.
The reward to pvp was the fun we had. Thats all we needed. Who cares what you get as long as its fun.
Maybe it's been said but it's worth to mention that this game focuses very little on progression in BOTH pvp and pve. You can get upgrades in pve, but from what the devs have been saying it'll be pretty darn easy to get the best end game pve gear. So while you might have to spend like 2-3 weeks to get from 1 to max and best gear; after that you really only play for fun. Just like in pvp.
I think it's important that you approach GW2 knowing that it's not a game about progressing your character. Sure, going from level 1 to max will be about progression, but that will be a rather quick affair like in most modern games. Myself I'm on the fence here. On the one hand I like developing my character through gear once I've hit max level. On the other hand I know I suffer through very boring things to do so. And should I really waste time on boring gameplay just to get a slightly better character?
GW2 has PvP gear so that you can choose what you want to put on it, like in GW1 with runes and insignias, without messing up your PvE gear or spending a lot of money or resources to get those runes/insignias. I am not at all saying runes and insignias will be in GW2, But I am assuming that there will be something somewhat like it, and I remember reading something about armor and weapon add-ons. The point of PvP gear in GW1 was to be able to put anything on it that you desired, and I'm assuming the same thing is most likely going to apply with GW2. You will be able to use PvE gear in PvP, but it won't be freely customizable with add-ons. However, you will NOT be able to use gear that you customized in PvP that was for PvP in the PvE area. I'm surprised I've not read anyone saying anything about this in response to why you need seperate PvP gear, even if it is identical in base stats to PvE gear and can have the same things added to it and has no difference other than skins.
Competitive gear races allow for people who have more time to spend to be able to destroy anyone who has less time to play. Personally I think if you're a college student you should be spending more time on school than a game.
Guild Wars 2 is making it so that people who don't play a lot can stand a chance if they can understand everything the game has to offer and understand all of the game mechanics. Typically, a person who can spend more time on a game will still be more skilled than someone who cannot because they have more skill. The way I see it, the only reason someone would enjoy gear races and grinding to become better at PvP is because they're good at doing mindless things for a very long time in order to not have to think a lot to destroy another player. Ultimately, gear races are for try-hards, and Guild Wars 2 PvP will actually be a test of skill and strategy. There will still be try-hards in Guild Wars 2, but the skilled players will still be able to defeat them. Shear "Time-Played" isn't going to define how well you do in a PvP battle.
However, there will still be ways to show that you've spent more time in PvP by unlocking titles/gear that are unlocked through a combination of time and skill (more time = less skill ; more skill = less time). Guild Wars 2 is not made for casual players: it's made to have a test of skill.
Now there are people comparing Guild Wars 2 to First-Person Shooters. This is just absord. There are far more strategy and build combinations in Guild Wars 2 than in any FPS. Guild Wars 2 doesn't simply rely on reaction time and moving right, but knowing when to do what and knowing what skills to take into battle to counteract certain things or to cause a certain effect. In FPS, the main thing is: I like this gun because of this, these perks are my playing style, now lets see how well I can camp or how good my reaction time and aim is. Guild Wars 2 is a hundred times more in-depth than any FPS.
It's F2p=b2p. So who cares what the gear situation is.
Just visit the cash shop and they'll have something to help you out.
At the Eurogamer Expo 2011 held last weekend, ArenaNet confirmed that there will be a cash shop for GW2. However, designer Colin Johanson stated that they won't sell anything "evil" in the micro-transaction cash shop.
Here, the definition of evil is anything that can make your character more powerful, such as high-level equipments or weapons. Generally, the stuff sold in the cash shop is purely cosmetic and some extra bonus staff that isn't necessary for you to buy to play the game.
Please just take 30 minutes to learn about the game.
Also everyone in the competitive PvP has the same items with the same stats.
+9001
Thank you! Finally someone with very good sense to come and clear things up with this guy. Thank you for supplying information to refute this jackman guy instead of what everyone else has been doing. Really restores my faith in people
Also to add it's not JUST 5v5 lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
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P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
In red and large font: This, my good sir, is an OPINION.
Don't be upset because GW2 is going to be a completely different kind of MMORPG. If you don't like it, don't play it.
If you go into this game with preconceived notions of what an MMORPG should be, then you aren't going to have an open mind enough to see this game for what it is and truly enjoy it.
But hey, it's your loss.
well said.
Personally I don't like it when I get max pvp gear because pvp then becomes too easy. My RIFT cleric virtually one shot's undergeared players.
Kinda ruins the challenge when I know I'll win.
/prays to god to make GW2 more like League of Legends where it's about skill not gear.
I've spent way more than 30 minutes learning about the game.
Sorry if the fact that your game has a CASH SHOP causes you to have to claim that people dont know what their talking about. You even said "Generally" so you really dont know what they are going to sell. I've read most all of the news articles and i've seen the videos and interviews. Its a cash shop game. They even slip in little comments like "we're going to try"...."and generally we're only going to sell" Guess I just dont dont fall for the hype and actually read what they say.
GW2 =cash shop.....spin it however you want to.
At this point there is no reason to believe that the cash shop will be much different from GW1... cosmetics, character slots, bank space, and... after a while skill unlock books for pvp characters
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
If you've been following this game at all you'd know what you're saying is utter tripe. The game's core design doesn't even support play to win due to how it's gear structure is aimed. It's safe to say you're either an idiot, ignorant, or just plain trolling.
There aren't many buy to play games even on the market. Guild Wars 1 was one of them and THEIR cash shop had exactly what I expected. Namely skins, extra storage room, cosmetics, and character slots.
God this thread needs to die. OP has been told time and time again why the majority of MMO players find no statistical PVP gear grind a good thing. If you don't like it, THAT IS YOUR OPINION. If you need to prove your e-peen is bigger than everyone by grinding gear more in other games then by all means go for it. If you want to use strategy, tactics, and skill, well then GW2 is what your looking for.
The end.
In red: every skill is unlocked upon entering PvP, as well as equipment. Therefore they have no need to sell skill unlock books for PvP Characters.
Anyone that wants PvP gear that gives you an advantage over other players for having it needs to just quit life. How about actually being good at the game on even ground?
That's exactly why I can't stand PvP in TOR. Unless you're some nolifer that's already grinded Battlemaster gear, you get your face stomped in by said nolifers that have said Battlemaster gear. It's complete garbage.
So, why do stats like Resilience (WoW) and Valor / Vengeance (Rift) exist?
The developers at Trion say that it is to separate best-in-slot itemization. The BiS for PVP should not be the same for PVE and vice versa. Essentially, this attempts to reward each type of player (PvP/PvE) for doing their own thing.
On paper, it's a sound concept. When you consider a stat-heavy game like WoW or Rift, who should have the better stats in PvP: the person who raids or the person who does PvP? If a player puts their focus to a certain playstyle, it makes sense to reward them for their choice.
In the early WoW days when Vanilla raiding gear continued to scale while PvP gear did not move (and was rank-based for a while), players that had superior PvE gear were able to really hurt most PvP players. Mages became infamous for Presence of Mind > Pyroblast burst that was put through the roof due to raid gear, not to mention gear-dependent classes like Warriors getting a huge boost when put into powerful gear.
Burning Crusade introduced Resilience (though it only reduced damage/probability of critical strikes). It took until Cataclysm for Blizzard to make resilience the PvP stat it is now - straight up damage reduction versus players.
In between those, Wrath happened. For those who played WoW during Wrath, they probably knew what happened here. Insane amounts of stat inflation on gear caused damage to go through the roof. Venruki exploded to a Beastcleave comp in MLG Orlando, and if you were wearing cloth, the chances of you being killed in one or two global cooldowns was at an all time high. While MMO combat isn't something to get excited about in the first place, getting globalled was poor design.
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In PvE, there is a thing called raid progression. You gain gear from dungeons which will allow you to complete the first tier of raids. You then gain gear from that tier that will propel you to harder content. The first raid tiers are usually easier and have simple mechanics for you to learn, while the later tiers are all about adding more complex encounters and pushing your raid to the limit. The game transitions you slowly from easy to hard so while you might struggle on the way up, you are not hitting brick walls every time you get your guild together.
In PvP, there is no difficulty progression. From max level, you are put in the same bracket as everyone else at max level. You could be in greens and going up against the guy swinging around Shadowmourne. To obtain the gear that will help you PvP better, you need to go through a grueling period of being pubstomped all day every day for a few months to become a viable damage dealer - arguably the most basic of PvP roles. Even if you wanted to heal, at low gear levels, not only was your output poor, but you could be destroyed by the other team instantly.
Not only was this a problem, but players with high tier Wrath raid gear could come into PvP and do extremely well due to their amazing damage output. In fact, some best-in-slot items for PvPers included high tier raid gear that they would need to be in a serious raiding guild to get. It turned out that if you wanted to be the best PvPer that you could possibly be, you had to raid. The old implementation of Resilience was not working, and PvPers were sacrificing a lot of stats to get resilience that didn't really help all that much versus the insane burst that happened in Wrath.
So Blizzard introduced the Resilience update 4.0.1. To this day, however, players without Resilience who queue for PvP are still wet paper embroidered with free honor to the people in top season gear. Resilience fixed the crazy burst of Wrath but it was put on an item and not introduced as a buff to ensure that PvP gear and PvE gear remained powerful in their own domains and not each other's. Getting gear through PvP is the same grueling experience that hasn't been addressed yet.
Turns out that when Rift launched, the same thing happened with Valor. Players who were below rank 4 prestige were just speed bumps that posed no threat to the 1k valor beasts. Normalization and Vengeance didn't do much to help, and even Taugrim agrees that low-ranked players are still forced to get stomped all the time. So now they are doing even more PvP work in 1.7. We'll have to see how that goes.
The bottom line - gear dependant games like WoW / Rift will all suffer power creep as new content is released that has better gear. This power creep will affect PvP and it will be hard hitting to new players who are in bewilderment that the Pyro/Dom mage just sent them back to spawn with three spells.
The hope is that GW2 will do away with the gap in power between low-endgame and high-endgame gear. GW1's armor system allowed for players to quickly and easily gain max-stat armor and gear, with more expensive armors being for cosmetic purposes. While GW2 expanded the level cap and have mentioned how gear carries specific stats now, it will take some actual hands-on with the game to see how the gear affects PvP.
I'm sorry because this is going to offend, but if you PvP for gear, you're bad. Moreover, you're most probably hopelessly bad and should consider quitting PvP for good.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Nice history lesson Khaeros and I myself have experience the nightmare that was Rift's PvP as a Rank 1 & 2 prestiege player, being nothing but a free kill to all the Rank 6+ geared players. However with regards to your last point... Gear will only have a great effect on your character in WvWvW. Whereas in structured PvP, everyone is given their PvP gear, along with weapons, skills, traits and boosted to max. So gear won't really play much of a role there, only skill and your build.