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Why say there is no trinity?
brac777
Member Posts: 35
in Guild Wars 2
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
Comments
no one can heal you as much as your self. if people are taking a lot of damage there doing it wrong, there are no skills that give someone aggro ie taunt provoke or anything of that matter.
I believe their main point is that any class or person can do any of the 3 roles
watch the dungeon footage and behold the fate of the guardian who says "ok i'ma tank".
Its just a hype builder imo, the trinity is still in guild wars 2, its just not as set in stone, as it is in most mmo's. There just is no pre-determined class thats say best at tanking, but I am pretty sure a certan class will tank better than the rest, or one will heal better than the rest. A mmo can't really work if you totally remove the trinity. The rules in gw2 are just alot more.. lax on it.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
you are missing something, you are missing the fact that these guys played the game like there was a trinity and there wasn't. Which was probably why they struggled.
There are support roles, there are even people who grab agro, but both of those are for brief periods of time.
I have yet to watch a video where the self heal was the sole healing a person recieved in PVE. It was more like a supplement to the healing coming from someone else.
*wooosh*
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
In trinity combat your group have a dedicated healer and tank.
GW2 don´t have that, you might have a support character or 2 that heals and buffs but they can and in some cases must change to DPS during the combat.
You will take the role that you need to take at any moment instead having static roles. Noone really have enough healing to only heal which mean noone really can tank in the traditional way either.
GW2 will have roles even if they will be flexible and you might need to change several time during a combat, but it doesn´t have trinity roles. It is as simple as that.
If a "tank" is swatting a boss back and forth, trading blows, they are playing the game wrong, bosses and regular mobs even have tells in their big attacks and even in their regular attacks. The regular attacks may be too fast to dodge, and 1 person may be keeping the attention from the other fragile damagers, but he is not parrying back and forth, he is using control abilities like snares, cripples, and other such conditions.
There are no healers either. Some classes can put like small boons on people that replenish their health for a miniscule amount, but there are no targetable heals.
So in retrospect, are there classes that are effective at pulling mobs away from more fragile classes? Yes. Should they "tank" those mobs? No, they will die and thats not the way to play, the goal is NOT to get hit. As mentioned previously, there are no taunts or aggro meters either.
So essentially it is still the trinity just added some spice to the healers by giving them DPS abilities as well and instead of 1 tank you have a couple of guys with higher mit ability that trade agro. So again I ask why say there is no trinity, when its very obvious that there is still a trinity and class roles?
dont kno what you been watching then... the self heal is the strongest heal in the game. look it up if you want... certain calsses can take more damgae yes but that doesnt equate to tanking. there is heavy armor in the game, but stand in front of a mob and die plain and simple... no where did i say it was the only heal but the supplement healing is the heals coming from other people... the "Heal" spells even when used on yourself arent as powerfull as your "self healing ability"
seems like your gonna see it the way you want no matter what. if you try to tank, you die, if you try to be a healer you will be useless to your party
If you look at the classes, you will see there is NO healer class. Every class has some healing abilities, some more than others.
Ergo, no more trinity.
Umm... no there is no obvious trinity or healers with added dps.
It is clear you have never read the GW2 website explaining the classes.
no.. someone who just healed another player may be required to take "aggro" briefly if the person who had "aggro" earlier runs out of dodge and cannot avoid the npc abilities.. likewise while that person is replenishing dodge, they can chose to heal another player, themselves or dps... roles need to be hotswapped and weapons your currently using have an effect over what you can do at the time...
you might change to a 1h sword during combat and get a ability that essentially pulls aggro for a certain amount of seconds, then switch back to your 1h weapon and offhand to dps and have a heal...
there is no set in stone class roles because alot of role abilities are weapon based
You can play a support role but you just wont hel enough to be a dedicated healer. Healing will both be a team effort and something you must do yourself.
The big difference is that you switch between the roles in combat, you will at least be 2 of the roles if not all 3 and therefor there isn´t really much of a trinity left.
*woosh* *woosh*Any profession can perform any role no spicing up healers. No holy trinity no percific profession needed. Oh my looking for a group long as your skilled we can play this dungeon over and out. Support, control, and damage all can be done with one guy, 3 control build types can still come out a dungeon since they can heal themselves. They warrior could lay down a banner and support but doesn't make him an healer more so a supporter and any can revive anyone no need for a certain profession to revive someone. As no one has a revive abilitie. Hope this helps and take care.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
not to mention traits provide certain abilities to help in certain situations.. and swapping them out to compliment your current support role you may be doing at the time can be crucial in my opinion to how successful things are
There are still roles, but no class is "stuck" doing one role.
Roles yes, Healer, tank role no
No I've read the marketting from the GW2 website. Just the thing is, that what it says on the website doesn't exactly match what I see in gameplay videos.
Case in point, http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-mmorpg/dungeon-runner/
I see one guy casting out a healing turret that is keeping pretty much everyone alive. I see one dude with a sword standing in front of monsters and hitting them, when I look at the health bars, I only generally see 1 health bar ever changing when all 5 are alive, sometimes a second health bar is changing as well.
So there is no designated healer? No designated tank? Thats not what it looks like to me.
There are no targetable heals.
Everyone has a self heal, which is typically the most powerful heal available to all classes.
There are no threat mechanics on abilities. Different AI treat threat differently.
There are no taunts.
Tanks can't just stand in front of the MOB. No standard "tank and spanks".
The majority of "tanking" comes from using reactive abilities and dodging as well as aggro swapping. Most MOBs threat is based primarily (but not entirely) on proximity.
Healing is mostly heal over time, AoE conal, or an extra effect from a DPS ability. It's very limited by cooldowns. No spammable heals and abilities that provide consistent healing aren't very powerful (like healing turrets). There is only one direct heal (not counting self heals) in the game that I know of and that's Merciful Intervention from a Guardian which automatically heals (and teleports to) the lowest health target.
Every profession can play every role to an extent.
That said, some professions can heal better than others and some have more abilities geared for tanking. Different weapon sets, utility skills, and traits will effect your role in a group; however you'll have to do a little bit of everything at the very least. You'll like want to be supporting, controlling, DPSing, healing, and tanking at certain points for your party. A guardian for example will often play a support role in a group, though they can do very good DPS also and have some great tanking abilities. It's not that there is no trinity in Guild Wars 2, the trinity is just different than what people are used.
Your group will likely be more effective if nobody sits in a specific role and everyone brings at least a single support ability, though you'll still want someone as support as their primary role. Note that this doesn't mean they won't be DPSing and swapping between roles either. I can't say this for a fact, but the press beta dungeon runs showed lots of failing because the press was trying to play as the common Trinity.
No, the AoE heals are the supplements. The healing you provide for yourself is far more powerful and effective than any skill that any ally can put our for you.
From what I've seen and read, it's common to have a couple of people load group heal skills and drop them as often as they can. But while they aren't using that single skill that offers health regen to any ally smart enough to move themselves into it's sphere of influence, those "healers" are doing damage or taking damage, or sometimes both. The "tank", having spent himself on the alpha damage, would roll out of combat and someone else would replace him. Maybe one of your "healers".
For a trinity system to work, you would need dedicated roles being filled and that just doesn't happen in GW2. Let me repeat that: there are no dedicated roles. Once more, with feeling: there are no dedicated roles. The fact that I have a healing skill on my bar does not make me a healer. Even if I spec for it, the regen support I provide will never be enough to keep a group on it's feet. At best what it will do is provide a little buffer to take the edge off of the incoming damage. But even then, I can't direct heal. It's still up to the players to take advantage of the skills I put out there for them. If they don't move into that Healing Spring, they get nothing. And in the meantime, my job is the same as everyone else: burn down and CC mobs, rez if needed, and keep myself alive.
The only way to fit a holy trinity into that is with a shoehorn.
When they say no trinity , i think they mean that the game isnt built for the traditional roles a tank, heal and stuff did, There are no real dedicated healers, as all classes have a self heal and while u can tank, The game isnt built on the trinity rule set.
U dont have to have a dedicated tank, heals , dps to run a dungeon or a raid, Sure they have classes that can fulfill those roles but the game isnt built on players actually playing those roles,
Its more based on all classes as utility with self heals and say a player throwing up a sheild and the rest of the party getting behind it so they dont take damage, not on one person holding threat for the entire fight dps beating it up and one person healing everyoen for the entire dungeon
I havent played it but thats the way i have taken what they have said and what ive seen in video's
ps not a gw 2 fan , i think it will be a great game thats fun to play unlike most i dont expect it to reinvent the mmo wheel, but it does do some thigns diffrent then the normal and how the roles like tank and heal are done is one of them.
It makes sense that people used to playing group content with a "Tank, Spank and Heal" strategy will try to approximate the same here, but if you look at how badly some of the press got rolled in Dungeons trying to do it that way, you should realize that this game will reward, or even require, a different approach.
There is a broad trinity in GW2:
Damage, Control and Support.
Damage is damage, though GW2 offers some creative ways to deal damage, often combined with other effects that add an additional tactical layer to combat.
Control used to be a mainstay of group MMO content, but has mostly devolved into a reliance on one very specific type of control, Tanking. There are many forms of control in GW2, but while some classes can absorb more damage than others, there are no aggro control skills in the game and healing is not sufficient to allow one person to take all the damage, even if they manage to put themselves in the way of most damage. Control here is more about actually controlling the battlefield, limiting enemy mobility, taking the enemy out of the battle for short periods at a time and blocking the access of the enemy to certain bits of local terrain. All meant to give your side the advantage in tactical positioning and battle management.
Support in most MMOs has become mostly about healing with the occassional long duration buff thrown in for good measure. In GW2, everyone has at least one self healing skill at all times. While there are some skills available that heal allies, they are not meant to support massive amounts of uncountered damage. Support in GW2 involves a lot of localized or area of effect skills that provide short term buffs, (or "Boons"), debuffs, (known as "Conditions") and also offer effects that actively block, deflect or mitigate incoming damage.
It isn't rare in GW2 to have skills touch on at least two of these categories, or even all three. Also, every profession has skills and builds that allow them to be good at any of these categories. In fact, it seems like it will be difficult to design builds that are only good at one function.
Every profession is a Hybrid in GW2. Most builds will also have the versatitily to provide varying degrees of damage, control and support, based on the situation at hand. Static tactics will not benefit group play and the best players will be the ones that can bring what ever is needed to the fight, no matter what profession they happen to be playing.
There are no set in stone profession roles. There is no dominant group strategy to mimic the overwhelming reliance that most games have on the "Holy Trinity". Groups will succeed based on the ability of the players to play their professions, adapt to changing situations and work well with others.
Tbe "Holy Trinity" may be dead in GW2, but I'm sure that will not stop many players from trying to fit that square peg in the round hole out of habit. It won't be a good fit for most group situations and will be a startegy that signals a great waste of potential and lack of creativity and adaptability.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
