When did I say that roles are attached to professions? Poor thing, you must have been afflicted with low IQ genetics when concieved. Specialized Roles = Yes Need for every role: Yes Roles for ea Class = No Tank = No DEDICATED healer = No, healing oriented build = Yes
So you agree there's no holy trinity?
Not sure what you're arguing about here, we knew there was going to be a different trinity and also you could run a dungeon with 5 support or 5 control or 5 dps but you would just need to manage your skill sets to be able to switch at the right moments it's a much better system.
you probably shouldn't insult the people you reply to it's not a nice thing to do.
I honestly think he's just having a temper tantrum at this point. I mean, accusing us all of "flaming" him for just explaining things and then going on to insult our DNA . I've tried explaining it to him in like 20 different ways but he just doesn't want to give in. That's fine though, he can play GW2 forever convinced that he must be any one role at any specific time if he wants to.
When did I say that roles are attached to professions? Poor thing, you must have been afflicted with low IQ genetics when concieved.
Specialized Roles = Yes
Need for every role: Yes
Roles for ea Class = No
Tank = No
DEDICATED healer = No, healing oriented build = Yes
So you agree there's no holy trinity?
Not sure what you're arguing about here, we knew there was going to be a different trinity and also you could run a dungeon with 5 support or 5 control or 5 dps but you would just need to manage your skill sets to be able to switch at the right moments it's a much better system.
you probably shouldn't insult the people you reply to it's not a nice thing to do.
I honestly think he's just having a temper tantrum at this point. I mean, accusing us all of "flaming" him for just explaining things and then going on to insult our DNA . I've tried explaining it to him in like 20 different ways but he just doesn't want to give in. That's fine though, he can play GW2 forever convinced that he must be any one role at any specific time if he wants to.
well you guys are saying I'm clearly stubborn then go on to say something that I said before claiming I will never understand that
There's a marked difference between 'no trinity' and 'no holy trinity.' I believe the latter claim is the one made. A 'loose trinity' system is what GW2 has, which is exactly the same as Champions Online.
With a 'holy trinity' system, you have someone who must be a tank from level 1, someone who must be a healer from level 1, and someone who must be a DPS from level 1, and then when you head into a dungeon, you have to have on your party someone who is a dedicated healer, a dedicated DPS, and a dedicated tank. The idea is that the restrictions are so loose that people can fulfil whatever roles they need to, when it's needed.
And the idea with Guild Wars 2 is that the loose trinity system is encouraged.
There's a marked difference between 'no trinity' and 'no holy trinity.' I believe the latter claim is the one made. A 'loose trinity' system is what GW2 has, which is exactly the same as Champions Online. With a 'holy trinity' system, you have someone who must be a tank from level 1, someone who must be a healer from level 1, and someone who must be a DPS from level 1, and then when you head into a dungeon, you have to have on your party someone who is a dedicated healer, a dedicated DPS, and a dedicated tank. The idea is that the restrictions are so loose that people can fulfil whatever roles they need to, when it's needed. And the idea with Guild Wars 2 is that the loose trinity system is encouraged.
If by trinity you mean that GW2 has abilities that damage enemies, control enemies, and/or support allies, then yes I agree with you. But I think this is really stretching the term "trinity." By this definition, Starcraft is a trinity game.
I believe Sanctum is basing his ideas on this chart, which shows that certain class have certain roles they can be.
But does it mean that you have to have a Engineer, Elementalist or Guardian in your dungeon group to succeed, from just the chart you might think so, but after you look through each class's skills, you will think twice.
GW2 allows you to experiment with a full team of thiefs if you want, if you can avoid the attacks of the boss, by blinding, crippling and stuns, you will win regardless of whether or not you have an healer.
As long as the people you are grouped with knows how to play their class, you will succeed regardless of if you have a engineer with Elixir Gun or An Guardian with an Mace.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
It's to generate conversation and hype. Every mmo player understands the trinity.
Now you are going to get a bunch of fanboi's who are going to argue with you over semantics. However the fact remains that GW2 still has the holy trinity in it. (Even if they call it something else, it is still essentially the same system.) That role may more flexible than your traditional mmo, however it still remains.
It's like in the MMO manifesto where they say the player "will change the world in a real and permanent way." Anybody who plays mmo's knows that this isn't possible. When you dig deeper you realize that your actions do not change the world in a permanent way at all. Eventually at some point the world will return to the state you found it in.
So essentially it is still the trinity just added some spice to the healers by giving them DPS abilities as well and instead of 1 tank you have a couple of guys with higher mit ability that trade agro. So again I ask why say there is no trinity, when its very obvious that there is still a trinity and class roles?
*woosh* *woosh* Any profession can perform any role no spicing up healers. No holy trinity no percific profession needed. Oh my looking for a group long as your skilled we can play this dungeon over and out. Support, control, and damage all can be done with one guy, 3 control build types can still come out a dungeon since they can heal themselves. They warrior could lay down a banner and support but doesn't make him an healer more so a supporter and any can revive anyone no need for a certain profession to revive someone. As no one has a revive abilitie. Hope this helps and take care.
Has been my criticism of most trinity style MMO's. There really is only one way to play your class. You can't really do anything inventive or creative.
It's why I liked POTBS. The game didn't have the trinity style. Two classes could "tank" at different times, some were better up close, others were better at a distance. Some classes used skills to mitigate the damage they had, whereas others simply had a thousand repairs they could blow.
And "DPS" was calculated not just raw damage output, but distance, accuracy, etc. So while a freetrader won at dps up close, once you got into range, he actually loses most dps fights.
And even then in group pvp, what mattered most was not "who was a tank or dps" but who fired at the same time, did moves properly, etc.
Same concept in GW2 it seems. Players will really have to respond on the fly to situations and play as it warrants, rather than using one way of combat for every instance.
It's to generate conversation and hype. Every mmo player understands the trinity.
Now you are going to get a bunch of fanboi's who are going to argue with you over semantics.
That's neither a question of fanboyism nor of semantics. It's a question of definition.
The trinity, as in 'a role a player takes within a group', yes, that still exists. Nobody is arguing that. However, that role is not hewn in stone, and here's why:
What devs and most fans mean is that the trinity as a blueprint for class mechanisms is gone.
Meaning: You can still PLAY the role, but you're not forced into it by choosing a class. As I said - not a question of semantics.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
If healing others is as ineffective as claimed by some posters why do it at all?
By what mechanism do NPC's select targets?
You're welcome to give a specific example of NPC and support spells.
It isn't that healing others is "ineffective." A properly timed heal can be very beneficial, even if just a limited amount. You reduce the damage they are about to take, give them an extra few seconds to do something, etc.
It is just that when many people think "healing", they think of one character standing at range, and doing nothing but various heals. That kind of play in this game will get you killed, and probably your whole group as well.
I also think it is better that way. In this game, positioning matters. Position yourself properly, and you won't need constant healing. Yet a lot of people, so used to that style of play, don't know how to play any other way. For a lot of us who crave more intriguing forms of combat, we welcome it, either as a refreshing change, or a challenge to master.
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
Your absolutly right, there is definitly a trinity, and a very strong one. Those classes you saw healing, are actually dedicated priests, but Anet was trying to hide that from the general players, but your a smart one, you saw right thru it.
There is only one tank, but Anet wants you to try and find which class it is. Maybe the warrior, or guardian, they are keeping it a secret.
One thing is for certain, you will need a healer and a tank, no matter what you do in GW2.
I actually really enjoy the trinity as long as it's done right. FFXI had such a great job system I despise every game I play now that isn't done in a similar fasion.
Like many posts it's so off topic now with people over analizing the word "trinity" & "roles".
Of course GW2 class design is flexible enough for you trinity dinosaurs to make your wow type healer. When you play this game you will totally understand the difference in support heals vs. a full blown healer and the tank threat system most have come to understand. No hate or taunt metering for mobs. I can picture a presumed tank expecting to hold aggro while he expect incoming heals, Lmao you will chase that mob all over the place.
From what I'm getting reading though this post gamers have played so many wow clones they just can't make the connection with what GW2 group dynamics will be. Roles, it's so general, It's more like everyone's role will be support. A rez, heal for others that are doomed and dps while doing your job to keep yourself as much as you can from being downed. Everybody fights! I think people will get the picture quick I can see more people having trouble dodging, people are so use to expecting to getting hit. I see it playing the Tera betas to.
Anet's goal is to eliminate the typical "LFG healer or tank" or the healer staring at health bars in a group situation throwing heals.
I'm not knocking trinity, I play and enjoy just about everthing. All I can say is if that combat systems all you enjoy, GW2 might not be for you.
Without the trinity mights as well play mw3 or battlefield 3.
Please do.
If the only way you can immagine team work and interesting combat is if somebody stands there getting beat on for ten minutes straight while somebody else watches Red bars and everyone else just pushes 1,2,3,1,1,1,4,2,3 then please stay away from GW2.
Without the trinity mights as well play mw3 or battlefield 3.
Please do.
If the only way you can immagine team work and interesting combat is if somebody stands there getting beat on for ten minutes straight while somebody else watches Red bars and everyone else just pushes 1,2,3,1,1,1,4,2,3 then please stay away from GW2.
No, I'm a very inclusive guy. Matter of fact, I propose anyone who thinks like that all play on one server..... so when WvWvW comes around, the grownups can have fun farming them.
Without the trinity mights as well play mw3 or battlefield 3.
Please do.
If the only way you can immagine team work and interesting combat is if somebody stands there getting beat on for ten minutes straight while somebody else watches Red bars and everyone else just pushes 1,2,3,1,1,1,4,2,3 then please stay away from GW2.
@ Ezekel LOL MW3 and Battlefeild 3 are Console Games XD
@ Trikke
Even though all they are a a giant zerg rush fest anymore... no strategy and the entire community (whatever they call it) are ^&%$ers no matter what you do or what console you play. Atleast GW2 requires some thought instead of rushing in and see who can get the most kills without even completing the objective.
Comments
So you agree there's no holy trinity?
Not sure what you're arguing about here, we knew there was going to be a different trinity and also you could run a dungeon with 5 support or 5 control or 5 dps but you would just need to manage your skill sets to be able to switch at the right moments it's a much better system.
you probably shouldn't insult the people you reply to it's not a nice thing to do.
I honestly think he's just having a temper tantrum at this point. I mean, accusing us all of "flaming" him for just explaining things and then going on to insult our DNA
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
well you guys are saying I'm clearly stubborn then go on to say something that I said before claiming I will never understand that
There's a marked difference between 'no trinity' and 'no holy trinity.' I believe the latter claim is the one made. A 'loose trinity' system is what GW2 has, which is exactly the same as Champions Online.
With a 'holy trinity' system, you have someone who must be a tank from level 1, someone who must be a healer from level 1, and someone who must be a DPS from level 1, and then when you head into a dungeon, you have to have on your party someone who is a dedicated healer, a dedicated DPS, and a dedicated tank. The idea is that the restrictions are so loose that people can fulfil whatever roles they need to, when it's needed.
And the idea with Guild Wars 2 is that the loose trinity system is encouraged.
If by trinity you mean that GW2 has abilities that damage enemies, control enemies, and/or support allies, then yes I agree with you. But I think this is really stretching the term "trinity." By this definition, Starcraft is a trinity game.Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/guildwars2junkies-coms-weapon-set-themes-class-chart/
I believe Sanctum is basing his ideas on this chart, which shows that certain class have certain roles they can be.
But does it mean that you have to have a Engineer, Elementalist or Guardian in your dungeon group to succeed, from just the chart you might think so, but after you look through each class's skills, you will think twice.
GW2 allows you to experiment with a full team of thiefs if you want, if you can avoid the attacks of the boss, by blinding, crippling and stuns, you will win regardless of whether or not you have an healer.
As long as the people you are grouped with knows how to play their class, you will succeed regardless of if you have a engineer with Elixir Gun or An Guardian with an Mace.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Is it that hard to believe???
God...this threads are getting boring.....
YES you can do content without a dedicated Tank or Heal since all can do it.
EASY.
Someone should roll a female human Thief with a leather outfit called Trinity.
It's to generate conversation and hype. Every mmo player understands the trinity.
Now you are going to get a bunch of fanboi's who are going to argue with you over semantics. However the fact remains that GW2 still has the holy trinity in it. (Even if they call it something else, it is still essentially the same system.) That role may more flexible than your traditional mmo, however it still remains.
It's like in the MMO manifesto where they say the player "will change the world in a real and permanent way." Anybody who plays mmo's knows that this isn't possible. When you dig deeper you realize that your actions do not change the world in a permanent way at all. Eventually at some point the world will return to the state you found it in.
Has been my criticism of most trinity style MMO's. There really is only one way to play your class. You can't really do anything inventive or creative.
It's why I liked POTBS. The game didn't have the trinity style. Two classes could "tank" at different times, some were better up close, others were better at a distance. Some classes used skills to mitigate the damage they had, whereas others simply had a thousand repairs they could blow.
And "DPS" was calculated not just raw damage output, but distance, accuracy, etc. So while a freetrader won at dps up close, once you got into range, he actually loses most dps fights.
And even then in group pvp, what mattered most was not "who was a tank or dps" but who fired at the same time, did moves properly, etc.
Same concept in GW2 it seems. Players will really have to respond on the fly to situations and play as it warrants, rather than using one way of combat for every instance.
That's neither a question of fanboyism nor of semantics. It's a question of definition.
The trinity, as in 'a role a player takes within a group', yes, that still exists. Nobody is arguing that. However, that role is not hewn in stone, and here's why:
What devs and most fans mean is that the trinity as a blueprint for class mechanisms is gone.
Meaning: You can still PLAY the role, but you're not forced into it by choosing a class. As I said - not a question of semantics.
Let me point out that, in fact, I couldn't care less about these first world problems. I'm just having fun.
Hmm, I'm betting that name is already reserved otherwise I'd do it ;-p
It isn't that healing others is "ineffective." A properly timed heal can be very beneficial, even if just a limited amount. You reduce the damage they are about to take, give them an extra few seconds to do something, etc.
It is just that when many people think "healing", they think of one character standing at range, and doing nothing but various heals. That kind of play in this game will get you killed, and probably your whole group as well.
I also think it is better that way. In this game, positioning matters. Position yourself properly, and you won't need constant healing. Yet a lot of people, so used to that style of play, don't know how to play any other way. For a lot of us who crave more intriguing forms of combat, we welcome it, either as a refreshing change, or a challenge to master.
Your absolutly right, there is definitly a trinity, and a very strong one. Those classes you saw healing, are actually dedicated priests, but Anet was trying to hide that from the general players, but your a smart one, you saw right thru it.
There is only one tank, but Anet wants you to try and find which class it is. Maybe the warrior, or guardian, they are keeping it a secret.
One thing is for certain, you will need a healer and a tank, no matter what you do in GW2.
I actually really enjoy the trinity as long as it's done right. FFXI had such a great job system I despise every game I play now that isn't done in a similar fasion.
Like many posts it's so off topic now with people over analizing the word "trinity" & "roles".
Of course GW2 class design is flexible enough for you trinity dinosaurs to make your wow type healer. When you play this game you will totally understand the difference in support heals vs. a full blown healer and the tank threat system most have come to understand. No hate or taunt metering for mobs. I can picture a presumed tank expecting to hold aggro while he expect incoming heals, Lmao you will chase that mob all over the place.
From what I'm getting reading though this post gamers have played so many wow clones they just can't make the connection with what GW2 group dynamics will be. Roles, it's so general, It's more like everyone's role will be support. A rez, heal for others that are doomed and dps while doing your job to keep yourself as much as you can from being downed. Everybody fights! I think people will get the picture quick I can see more people having trouble dodging, people are so use to expecting to getting hit. I see it playing the Tera betas to.
Anet's goal is to eliminate the typical "LFG healer or tank" or the healer staring at health bars in a group situation throwing heals.
I'm not knocking trinity, I play and enjoy just about everthing. All I can say is if that combat systems all you enjoy, GW2 might not be for you.
Without the trinity mights as well play mw3 or battlefield 3.
Please do.
If the only way you can immagine team work and interesting combat is if somebody stands there getting beat on for ten minutes straight while somebody else watches Red bars and everyone else just pushes 1,2,3,1,1,1,4,2,3 then please stay away from GW2.
No, I'm a very inclusive guy. Matter of fact, I propose anyone who thinks like that all play on one server..... so when WvWvW comes around, the grownups can have fun farming them.
@ Ezekel LOL MW3 and Battlefeild 3 are Console Games XD
@ Trikke
Even though all they are a a giant zerg rush fest anymore... no strategy and the entire community (whatever they call it) are ^&%$ers no matter what you do or what console you play. Atleast GW2 requires some thought instead of rushing in and see who can get the most kills without even completing the objective.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation