And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
Personally, I would have left the standard trinity roles, but made additional roles more important and viable, rewarding those who prefer a support role or who would rather focus on crowd control.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
That's a weird and bold statement..
I like the idea of no healing class so it's easier to find a group and a bad or afk healer doesn't screw up the whole dungeon.
I also play a lot of fps and I do not like auto healing. I also play strictly on my PC. I think you are incorrect in your assumption. I don't have proof but neither do you.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
Ah, I can see you have never followed this game or looked at any of the recent talent calculator's so that you actually know what you're talking about.
Don't worry though I'll inform you since Google seems out of your grasp.
Engineer's, Elementalist's, Guardians have heal spec's/tree's/specialization's call it what you will but these 3 classes do have tons of healing abilities.
That being said if you spec full healer the other party members will still need to avoid damage becuase none of the 3 classes that can spec pure healing will keep up a stupid person who stands in aoe and takes cleaves.
Will the heal specced engi's, ele's and guardians be pivotal roles for people to play...? You tell me. How about you take 5 minutes of imagination and actually ponder the problem from a place of intellect.
My guess is that a full on support spec'd engi, ele, guardian will be very sought after for pvp and pve.
If you like to, you are welcome to open a new browser window and do some research yourself. Then when you make bold claims you will sound somewhat believable.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
Ah, I can see you have never followed this game or looked at any of the recent talent calculator's so that you actually know what you're talking about.
Don't worry though I'll inform you since Google seems out of your grasp.
Engineer's, Elementalist's, Guardians have heal spec's/tree's/specialization's call it what you will but these 3 classes do have tons of healing abilities.
That being said if you spec full healer the other party members will still need to avoid damage becuase none of the 3 classes that can spec pure healing will keep up a stupid person who stands in aoe and takes cleaves.
Will the heal specced engi's, ele's and guardians be pivotal roles for people to play...? You tell me. How about you take 5 minutes of imagination and actually ponder the problem from a place of intellect.
My guess is that a full on support spec'd engi, ele, guardian will be very sought after for pvp and pve.
If you like to, you are welcome to open a new browser window and do some research yourself. Then when you make bold claims you will sound somewhat believable.
I'm a bit curious to see how the fully spec'd support classes play out in pvp. In pve bosses that can kill someone in 2-3 hits make outhealing damage impossible. I just can't see it in my head people killing each other in 2-3 hits though its not impossible. Now this doesn't mean that I think support classes can outheal inc damage from another player, but its quite possible it can offset a decent chunk of it.
In Lewis. B article he mention other getting into almost a stand off with other players 1v1 with a full support spec.
The way I think the game might work is that if you have a trinity minded group, one guy will do all the healing, some will DPS and one or two might tank as usual, however the guy doing the healing and JUST healing isnt going to be using his full power. So the group is not going to do as well.
Since all classes have the ability to heal, DPS, tank, or whatever, all classes will have to use all three modes of operation at the same time. If you just pick one thing you want to do, such as just heal and not attack, its not efficent because you could also be attacking and doing a lot of damage while healing occasionally at the same time.
I suspect its that way across the board. There are no dedicated healers, tanks, DPSers. Each person in the group will have to lend a hand to all three aspects. If the entire group is doing that together then you win the day. If not you bust. Its a fairly simple concept.
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave.
I love playing support, loved AoC's healing mechanic (IE, it wasn't all about clicking on names and playing healthbar whack-a-mole). I'm very excited for GW2. Obviously I don't represent all supporters/healers out there, but I will be traiting with support in mind and I'm a happy camper.
Holy Trinity type mmo's dungeons are tank and spank, while GW2 dungeons are learn and adapt. Instead of relying on the healing to carry people through, everyone has to carry their own wait.
That's just about any MMO not just GW2. Also, I take it you have never seen bad healers, trust me they are out there.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
This game is not for you! It's that simple and not hard to grasp.
Seriously fucking statements like these, really! People like you seem to have it all figured out.
Holy Trinity type mmo's dungeons are tank and spank, while GW2 dungeons are learn and adapt. Instead of relying on the healing to carry people through, everyone has to carry their own wait.
That's just about any MMO not just GW2. Also, I take it you have never seen bad healers, trust me they are out there.
That's any MMO?
Okay, load up the latest WoW clone and go into the equivalent of an heroic instance without a healer, or without a tank.
See how far you get. I'm willing to bet 'not far.'
GW2 isn't going to solve world peace, or cure cancer, or any other silly thing people attribute to the latest 'saviour of the genre' of the week, but false claims are just as bad going the other way.
Holy Trinity type mmo's dungeons are tank and spank, while GW2 dungeons are learn and adapt. Instead of relying on the healing to carry people through, everyone has to carry their own wait.
That's just about any MMO not just GW2. Also, I take it you have never seen bad healers, trust me they are out there.
That's any MMO?
Okay, load up the latest WoW clone and go into the equivalent of an heroic instance without a healer, or without a tank.
See how far you get. I'm willing to bet 'not far.'
GW2 isn't going to solve world peace, or cure cancer, or any other silly thing people attribute to the latest 'saviour of the genre' of the week, but false claims are just as bad going the other way.
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about!
Just about any MMO you have to learn and adapt! Also far as getting carried by healers, there are some shitty healers out there.
I think that once people get around how their classes function, this will solve alot of this theorycrafting nonsense.
To put it in perspective, one of the ascalon dungeon vids shows people healing in it. When standing in their area heals you only get about 50 hp per tic, and the effect only lasts for about 10 secs max (~500health). The skill has a cooldown of 45seconds. The average party member had around 4-5k hp. Now, if all you are doing is healing, your output is going to be extremely low. In this situation you would be healing for around 1k health max every minute or so, in a dungeon where the average mob is hitting for a few hundred a hit (not to mention trap damage which seems to be more than twice that).
To put it into perspective, things hit harder in this game than in most MMOs, and healing is less effective. It would be like trying to complete a dungeon in another MMO, with your healer just throwing a hot on you every now and then. It's just not going to cut it. Furthermore there are no taunt or threat mechanics. So, tanking will be much more similar to kiting / avoiding damage rather than trying to take the hits head-on.
To do well in this game, you will need to dodge, use shields, use conditions effectively, and learn boss' moves and how to counter them. I haven't seen ANY tank & spanks, and the earliest bosses have mechanics on par with some of the more difficult bosses of other MMOs.
Personally, I enjoy the traditional T/H/D trinity for the variety of play styles it offers in most MMOs. In WoW, I have all three types of characters and play each one fairly regularly depending on what's happening with my guild or what I'm in the mood to do on a particular night.
With GW2's proposed system it seems like the group content is really just every man for himself which goes against the original fundamentals of our beloved genre.
Hopefully I'm wrong
Not really.
Chaining together attacks is going to be vital. Running out of combat and having another one jump in will be vital.
Using different weapon forms together will be vital. Focusing on the right kind of buffs/conditions you slap on your team/enemies will be vital.
It would be akin to saying that in pvp "it is every man for themselves."
Tanks are relatively useless in pvp (relative to pve), as they can't "manage" the aggro of a human opponent. Yet if you are playing someone with high HP's, in certain situations it can be very useful.
Having a "dedicated" healer will probably help, but if that player is trying to focus exclusively on healing and is ignoring most of his weapon skills and not dealing significant damage, then yeah, it's not going to work out.
Tanking, on the other hand... That will never work, and without a tank, having a healer carries much less meaning.
I'm surprised that you don't know that there aren't any 'dedicated' healers. In fact, from what I've seen, the Warrior has as much healing potential as the Guardian. Note that I'm saying healing specifically. Where the Guardian differs from the Warrior is that the Guardian has more crowd control (the Warrior even has condition protection).
This is why they're saying that things are different, and this is what I don't think a lot of people are easily managing to wrap their heads around. And your post is proof of that. It will be based around a loose trinity, but not the holy trinity of prior games. And someone trying to be a 'dedicated healer' instead of contributing with condition protection, damage protection, and crowd control is going to screw over the group.
The design of the game isn't 'soak up damage and let the healer take care of it.' This is what you're not getting. The design of the game is stop the damage before it happens. That's a completely different concept. How do you do this? You stop conditions before they become serious, you use shields to halt damage, you control your foes so that they're not as capable of damaging the correct targets (or any targets).
It's a more strategic and tactical approach. You can't just faceroll and believe that the healer will take care of it all, because you'll die. Simple as that. If you see that a mob is about to release a storm of damage and conditions, and you don't put your shield up as a Warrior (if you have one), and you just keep slashing away, then you have done something wrong, not the healer. That's where this differs.
In a rigid trinity system, it's the role of one type of person to do one type of thing.
In a loose trinity system like the one in Guild Wars 2 (a system I'm innately familiar with, because Champions Online has a very similar system), everyone can do these things. If you're a DPS Warrior who doesn't use his shield because you believe that everything should be down to the tank, then you're a bit of an idiot. If you have a war banner with you as a DPS Warrior, but you don't drop it because you think the water-attuned Elementalist will take care of everything, then you're a bit of an idiot there, too.
See how this works?
In a loose trinity, there's very little differentiation between the classes. Rather than W does X, and Y does Z, and that's that, it's more that W can do X and Z, and Y can do X and Z. Though just because W may be slightly better at X than Y is, it doesn't mean that Y shouldn't be doing it too, because that'll bring about the doom of your group. Now, if you're still with me and you're getting this, let me move onto something else they've said.
You could complete a dungeon with a team of just Warriors, or just Elementalists, or just Engineers.
Think about that.
This is because all classes can help to prevent damage before it occurs. The thing is is that it's a difference between a proactive system and a reactive one. In a reactive system, you just wait until you're half dead, then the healer starts spamming heals on you. That won't work in this game. It doesn't work in Champions Online. It's a proactive system. You need to stop that damage before it hits you. You need to raise your shield, or stand next to someone who has their shield raised.
So no, a dedicated healer won't make things easier. In fact, it would actually make things more difficult. And again, I say this as someone who's familiar with a loose trinity system that has a proactive rather than reactive combat system. If you're not locking down your enemies, and you're letting your enemies half kill you, then you're doing it wrong.
POTBS was a lot like this to.
Every class could act as a damage absorber in different situations. Freetraders did it best up close. NO's did it best at range. Privs did it best for short burst situations. You could not have one "class" take up all the damage, because you couldn't manage aggro. NPC's could always switch targets without you realizing it, and in pvp, loading yourself up on nothing but armor integrity wasn't wise. The simple fact was when 6 or more people were firing at you all at once, it didn't matter.
The best way to stay alive in POTBS was:
1.) Kill them first.
2.) Don't put yourself in a bad position
3.) Know when to fire off your defensive skills. Some classes could go invincible for 30 seconds. Most would use it just as they were near death. Those people were known as idiots. Far better to use it the second BEFORE people were about to put a hurt on you.
A lot of people would try their pvp based on trinity mechanics, and use a freetrader because "he can put out so much DPS." He could, but DPS was relatively worthless in most ranged fights, as 6 people nailing you with debuffs and hitting you hard, you were going down before you could lay that DPS to bear. The only time his "DPS" (which really meant exceptional reload) mattered was if you were able to get in close, where you were flipping sides constantly getting off more canon shots. And given the relative speed disadvantages of the class, you had to rely on positioning and tactics several steps ahead of time to force the issue.
It just requires a bit of thinking outside the conventional box. That is what intrigues me about GW2. Will people develop strategies based around certain classes and what skills to use when? Of course they will. But those skills are constantly going to have to adapt on the fly, even in pve.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
This is a fantastic post. It really highlights what is being changed. Tanks, healers and DPSers won't like GW2. I think you may be right. If what you enjoy in an MMO is taunting the boss, or doing your rotation, or watching health bars, you will find it aggravating that GW2 asks you to keep track of a much broader variety of information, and react to the way that information changes in a smart, flexible way.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. They don't want the healing class eviscerated and the bloody remains draped over the remaining classes. They want healing and healers removed from their game play, as seen on so called "skill based console fps."
All that GW2 system does is alienate and aggravate the support and healer player base. The healers who do buy this game, will wake up and realize that this is not the class they want to play and leave. DPS players, who don't want healers in their game, will not start group healing. They will realize this game has no healer and leave. Tanks will follow healers, and leave.
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
Funny, I don't play shooters or consoles, and I look forward to the trinity system being irrelevant here.
I don't see how this aggrivates the support base. If anything, it makes those who want to play a support role and play it well VERY important. They will still have to dish out some damage, but buffs/debuffs/roots/snares, etc will be essential to any fight.
A lot of us aren't "console fps players." We are old school MMO players.
Holy Trinity type mmo's dungeons are tank and spank, while GW2 dungeons are learn and adapt. Instead of relying on the healing to carry people through, everyone has to carry their own wait.
That's just about any MMO not just GW2. Also, I take it you have never seen bad healers, trust me they are out there.
That's any MMO?
Okay, load up the latest WoW clone and go into the equivalent of an heroic instance without a healer, or without a tank.
See how far you get. I'm willing to bet 'not far.'
GW2 isn't going to solve world peace, or cure cancer, or any other silly thing people attribute to the latest 'saviour of the genre' of the week, but false claims are just as bad going the other way.
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about!
Just about any MMO you have to learn and adapt! Also far as getting carried by healers, there are some shitty healers out there.
And this is why this game will fail. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS. ...
They Devs will say, "We didn't do what you asked. Why are you leaving?"
That's a weird and bold statement..
I like the idea of no healing class so it's easier to find a group and a bad or afk healer doesn't screw up the whole dungeon.
I also play a lot of fps and I do not like auto healing. I also play strictly on my PC. I think you are incorrect in your assumption. I don't have proof but neither do you.
GW2 does not do away with healers, it spreads it out over other non-healer classes. The class does not determine if you have healers or not for groups, the number of players who play healers does. A melee dps that has the option to respec as a Healer, is not going to repsec as a Healer. So the lack of healers for groups will remain unchanged, because the segment of the player base that plays healers remains unchanged.
Those so called bad & afk Healers, were probably casting like a Mo-Fo their best heals with 3 second or longer cast times on a Main Tank, Off Tank, 2 idiot agro steeling melee dps, and 2 idiot AoE spamming ranged dps. So if a melee dps hasn't been healed in 15 seconds, blame the other four idiots in his group.
The reason auto-healing exists is because focus groups and online communities have been asking for it from day one. In the 90's if two developers met at a conference, the talk would get around to how players were to lazy to heal them selves.
My "assumption" is based on 20+ years of history. The proof is that the auto-heal exists today in games. Do I want to see it implemented in MMOs, and the trinity done away with? No.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
GW2 does not do away with healers, it spreads it out over other non-healer classes. The class does not determine if you have healers or not for groups, the number of players who play healers does. A melee dps that has the option to respec as a Healer, is not going to repsec as a Healer. So the lack of healers for groups will remain unchanged, because the segment of the player base that plays healers remains unchanged.
Those so called bad & afk Healers, were probably casting like a Mo-Fo their best heals with 3 second or longer cast times on a Main Tank, Off Tank, 2 idiot agro steeling melee dps, and 2 idiot AoE spamming ranged dps. So if a melee dps hasn't been healed in 15 seconds, blame the other four idiots in his group.
The reason auto-healing exists is because focus groups and online communities have been asking for it from day one. In the 90's if two developers met at a conference, the talk would get around to how players were to lazy to heal them selves.
My "assumption" is based on 20+ years of history. The proof is that the auto-heal exists today in games. Do I want to see it implemented in MMOs, and the trinity done away with? No.
That is kinda getting rid of healers. Since heals are so weak compared to in other games you really need to be the trinity all by yourself.
To be honest I think that this trinity is dead talk is just talk. People will still be tanks, healer and DPS and I think the only difference will be that tanks will be able to do some DPS and healing, healers will be able to do some DPS and possibly of-tank and DPS will be able to do some healing and of-tank.
Still they will be tank, dps and healer roles. It's just that people wont be locked into those roles permenantly but rather be more flexible, which is all good.
I think it will be similar to hybrid builds in SWG to an extent, in that it's a system based on each player being self reliant. You heal yourself, you deal damage, you apply CC's to save your own ass. The only group reliance seems to be in the area of rezzing, if I'm not mistaken I think you have to be out of combat to do that.
As for tanking it seems to be more akin to tanking in PVP. The tank is the guy who takes the most damage but that's about as far as it goes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
GW2 does not do away with healers, it spreads it out over other non-healer classes. The class does not determine if you have healers or not for groups, the number of players who play healers does. A melee dps that has the option to respec as a Healer, is not going to repsec as a Healer. So the lack of healers for groups will remain unchanged, because the segment of the player base that plays healers remains unchanged.
...
That is kinda getting rid of healers. Since heals are so weak compared to in other games you really need to be the trinity all by yourself.
Exactly the point, I thought I made with the statement. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Welp, like I said, I typically play heals/support and I'm pleased with the GW2 setup. So not everyone who likes this system just wants autohealing or hates healing, lol.
Comments
Personally, I would have left the standard trinity roles, but made additional roles more important and viable, rewarding those who prefer a support role or who would rather focus on crowd control.
That's a weird and bold statement..
I like the idea of no healing class so it's easier to find a group and a bad or afk healer doesn't screw up the whole dungeon.
I also play a lot of fps and I do not like auto healing. I also play strictly on my PC. I think you are incorrect in your assumption. I don't have proof but neither do you.
The biggest problem I see is people not understanding that there is NO holy trinity and people will be responsible for themselves to a point.
Each profession has buff skills to buff themselves and the group so everything will be fine if people understand this simple concept.
I can see it now though, in a dungeon, "Heal me FFS heal me!" THen they leave; all because people do not understand that the game is not WOW!
I can see it happening.
Guild Wars 2 concept of no holy trinity is the best thing to happen to the MMORPG genre and I can't wait to play it.
PS. Seriously, talking about the holy trinity and GW2 is like talking about a pork chop buffet in a synagogue.
The more threads like this to bump up awareness the better.
Ah, I can see you have never followed this game or looked at any of the recent talent calculator's so that you actually know what you're talking about.
Don't worry though I'll inform you since Google seems out of your grasp.
Engineer's, Elementalist's, Guardians have heal spec's/tree's/specialization's call it what you will but these 3 classes do have tons of healing abilities.
That being said if you spec full healer the other party members will still need to avoid damage becuase none of the 3 classes that can spec pure healing will keep up a stupid person who stands in aoe and takes cleaves.
Will the heal specced engi's, ele's and guardians be pivotal roles for people to play...? You tell me. How about you take 5 minutes of imagination and actually ponder the problem from a place of intellect.
My guess is that a full on support spec'd engi, ele, guardian will be very sought after for pvp and pve.
If you like to, you are welcome to open a new browser window and do some research yourself. Then when you make bold claims you will sound somewhat believable.
I'm a bit curious to see how the fully spec'd support classes play out in pvp. In pve bosses that can kill someone in 2-3 hits make outhealing damage impossible. I just can't see it in my head people killing each other in 2-3 hits though its not impossible. Now this doesn't mean that I think support classes can outheal inc damage from another player, but its quite possible it can offset a decent chunk of it.
In Lewis. B article he mention other getting into almost a stand off with other players 1v1 with a full support spec.
The way I think the game might work is that if you have a trinity minded group, one guy will do all the healing, some will DPS and one or two might tank as usual, however the guy doing the healing and JUST healing isnt going to be using his full power. So the group is not going to do as well.
Since all classes have the ability to heal, DPS, tank, or whatever, all classes will have to use all three modes of operation at the same time. If you just pick one thing you want to do, such as just heal and not attack, its not efficent because you could also be attacking and doing a lot of damage while healing occasionally at the same time.
I suspect its that way across the board. There are no dedicated healers, tanks, DPSers. Each person in the group will have to lend a hand to all three aspects. If the entire group is doing that together then you win the day. If not you bust. Its a fairly simple concept.
How strange. My comment disappeared.
Anyway, I don't believe the trinity will work because there isn't necessarily a Threat mechanic for tanking.
I love playing support, loved AoC's healing mechanic (IE, it wasn't all about clicking on names and playing healthbar whack-a-mole). I'm very excited for GW2. Obviously I don't represent all supporters/healers out there, but I will be traiting with support in mind and I'm a happy camper.
That's just about any MMO not just GW2. Also, I take it you have never seen bad healers, trust me they are out there.
This game is not for you! It's that simple and not hard to grasp.
Seriously fucking statements like these, really! People like you seem to have it all figured out.
That's any MMO?
Okay, load up the latest WoW clone and go into the equivalent of an heroic instance without a healer, or without a tank.
See how far you get. I'm willing to bet 'not far.'
GW2 isn't going to solve world peace, or cure cancer, or any other silly thing people attribute to the latest 'saviour of the genre' of the week, but false claims are just as bad going the other way.
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about!
Just about any MMO you have to learn and adapt! Also far as getting carried by healers, there are some shitty healers out there.
I think that once people get around how their classes function, this will solve alot of this theorycrafting nonsense.
To put it in perspective, one of the ascalon dungeon vids shows people healing in it. When standing in their area heals you only get about 50 hp per tic, and the effect only lasts for about 10 secs max (~500health). The skill has a cooldown of 45seconds. The average party member had around 4-5k hp. Now, if all you are doing is healing, your output is going to be extremely low. In this situation you would be healing for around 1k health max every minute or so, in a dungeon where the average mob is hitting for a few hundred a hit (not to mention trap damage which seems to be more than twice that).
To put it into perspective, things hit harder in this game than in most MMOs, and healing is less effective. It would be like trying to complete a dungeon in another MMO, with your healer just throwing a hot on you every now and then. It's just not going to cut it. Furthermore there are no taunt or threat mechanics. So, tanking will be much more similar to kiting / avoiding damage rather than trying to take the hits head-on.
To do well in this game, you will need to dodge, use shields, use conditions effectively, and learn boss' moves and how to counter them. I haven't seen ANY tank & spanks, and the earliest bosses have mechanics on par with some of the more difficult bosses of other MMOs.
Not really.
Chaining together attacks is going to be vital. Running out of combat and having another one jump in will be vital.
Using different weapon forms together will be vital. Focusing on the right kind of buffs/conditions you slap on your team/enemies will be vital.
It would be akin to saying that in pvp "it is every man for themselves."
Tanks are relatively useless in pvp (relative to pve), as they can't "manage" the aggro of a human opponent. Yet if you are playing someone with high HP's, in certain situations it can be very useful.
POTBS was a lot like this to.
Every class could act as a damage absorber in different situations. Freetraders did it best up close. NO's did it best at range. Privs did it best for short burst situations. You could not have one "class" take up all the damage, because you couldn't manage aggro. NPC's could always switch targets without you realizing it, and in pvp, loading yourself up on nothing but armor integrity wasn't wise. The simple fact was when 6 or more people were firing at you all at once, it didn't matter.
The best way to stay alive in POTBS was:
1.) Kill them first.
2.) Don't put yourself in a bad position
3.) Know when to fire off your defensive skills. Some classes could go invincible for 30 seconds. Most would use it just as they were near death. Those people were known as idiots. Far better to use it the second BEFORE people were about to put a hurt on you.
A lot of people would try their pvp based on trinity mechanics, and use a freetrader because "he can put out so much DPS." He could, but DPS was relatively worthless in most ranged fights, as 6 people nailing you with debuffs and hitting you hard, you were going down before you could lay that DPS to bear. The only time his "DPS" (which really meant exceptional reload) mattered was if you were able to get in close, where you were flipping sides constantly getting off more canon shots. And given the relative speed disadvantages of the class, you had to rely on positioning and tactics several steps ahead of time to force the issue.
It just requires a bit of thinking outside the conventional box. That is what intrigues me about GW2. Will people develop strategies based around certain classes and what skills to use when? Of course they will. But those skills are constantly going to have to adapt on the fly, even in pve.
This is a fantastic post. It really highlights what is being changed. Tanks, healers and DPSers won't like GW2. I think you may be right. If what you enjoy in an MMO is taunting the boss, or doing your rotation, or watching health bars, you will find it aggravating that GW2 asks you to keep track of a much broader variety of information, and react to the way that information changes in a smart, flexible way.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
Funny, I don't play shooters or consoles, and I look forward to the trinity system being irrelevant here.
I don't see how this aggrivates the support base. If anything, it makes those who want to play a support role and play it well VERY important. They will still have to dish out some damage, but buffs/debuffs/roots/snares, etc will be essential to any fight.
A lot of us aren't "console fps players." We are old school MMO players.
There you go. Right from the horse's mouth. No trinity. If anyone says otherwise, they are delusional.
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
[Mod Edit]
GW2 does not do away with healers, it spreads it out over other non-healer classes. The class does not determine if you have healers or not for groups, the number of players who play healers does. A melee dps that has the option to respec as a Healer, is not going to repsec as a Healer. So the lack of healers for groups will remain unchanged, because the segment of the player base that plays healers remains unchanged.
Those so called bad & afk Healers, were probably casting like a Mo-Fo their best heals with 3 second or longer cast times on a Main Tank, Off Tank, 2 idiot agro steeling melee dps, and 2 idiot AoE spamming ranged dps. So if a melee dps hasn't been healed in 15 seconds, blame the other four idiots in his group.
The reason auto-healing exists is because focus groups and online communities have been asking for it from day one. In the 90's if two developers met at a conference, the talk would get around to how players were to lazy to heal them selves.
My "assumption" is based on 20+ years of history. The proof is that the auto-heal exists today in games. Do I want to see it implemented in MMOs, and the trinity done away with? No.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Hasn't the zerging mindset replaced the trinity over the past few years anyway?
That is kinda getting rid of healers. Since heals are so weak compared to in other games you really need to be the trinity all by yourself.
I think it will be similar to hybrid builds in SWG to an extent, in that it's a system based on each player being self reliant. You heal yourself, you deal damage, you apply CC's to save your own ass. The only group reliance seems to be in the area of rezzing, if I'm not mistaken I think you have to be out of combat to do that.
As for tanking it seems to be more akin to tanking in PVP. The tank is the guy who takes the most damage but that's about as far as it goes.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Exactly the point, I thought I made with the statement. The people who want to do away with the trinity, want the auto healing found on console FPS.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Welp, like I said, I typically play heals/support and I'm pleased with the GW2 setup. So not everyone who likes this system just wants autohealing or hates healing, lol.