Terrible article that accuses the readers that see things differently of 'bitching', as a cheap way of dismissing their perspective, when the whole thing was one long 'bitch'.
MMORPG.com used to be better then this kind of official troll piece.
Really Vesavius? Please read my previous post. Isabelle isn't trolling, she is stating a clear point in my opinion. See my previous post on this.
Here's the thing the "old school" players need to get through their head is the whole community thing will not go back to the way it was in EQ1, unless you are playing some Niche MMO by some indie company with 200 other players.
back in the days of EQ1 it was only played by "nerds", now with MMOs becoming more mainstream communities have become more guild oriented instead of you knowing everyone on the server.
sorry but the "forced grouping" faction of this forum is WRONG you cannot have a successful MMO without a heavy soloing element. now you can encourage grouping which is what MMOs should do but forcing people to be in a group to do ANYTHING will just make people unsubscribe.
Your abundance of misinformation is truly astounding.
oh i know i insult the god known as EQ1 on this forum which is bound to bring out the fanboys with their pitchforks and torches. but the reality is that forced grouping is a DEAD mechanic thankfully games need crap for the solo player to do and reward the solo player or else they will get bored and find a game that does cater to them.
people talk about giving soloers too much "epic" gear and i say well until you find another way to progress their character you have to give them upgraded gear. thats the whole point of MMORPGs right now ... the stat progression. And soloers are part of the community they should be able to progress their characters past max level.
Gotta love how quickly some people jump to use the word "fanboy" whenever someone disagrees with them. Thanks for further proving my earlier statement. Now, had you said "I don't like forced grouping" then ok, you're entitled to your opinion. To proclaim it dead, and that it can't work, however, just displays your own ignorance when it comes to the MMO market.
forced grouping IS dead and any AAA MMORPG that tries to force grouping will be doomed to be a niche game.
Soloing is fine in MMOs and despite my love for Everquest 1 I don't think I'd ever play an MMO again that had forced grouping (sure, some classes in EQ could solo to max level, but most couldn't). However, making soloing the most eficient way to level is bad, in my opinion. Soloing should be viable in MMOs, but IMO, it should never be the preferred way to play.
Here's the thing the "old school" players need to get through their head is the whole community thing will not go back to the way it was in EQ1, unless you are playing some Niche MMO by some indie company with 200 other players.
back in the days of EQ1 it was only played by "nerds", now with MMOs becoming more mainstream communities have become more guild oriented instead of you knowing everyone on the server.
sorry but the "forced grouping" faction of this forum is WRONG you cannot have a successful MMO without a heavy soloing element. now you can encourage grouping which is what MMOs should do but forcing people to be in a group to do ANYTHING will just make people unsubscribe.
Your abundance of misinformation is truly astounding.
oh i know i insult the god known as EQ1 on this forum which is bound to bring out the fanboys with their pitchforks and torches. but the reality is that forced grouping is a DEAD mechanic thankfully games need crap for the solo player to do and reward the solo player or else they will get bored and find a game that does cater to them.
people talk about giving soloers too much "epic" gear and i say well until you find another way to progress their character you have to give them upgraded gear. thats the whole point of MMORPGs right now ... the stat progression. And soloers are part of the community they should be able to progress their characters past max level.
Gotta love how quickly some people jump to use the word "fanboy" whenever someone disagrees with them. Thanks for further proving my earlier statement. Now, had you said "I don't like forced grouping" then ok, you're entitled to your opinion. To proclaim it dead, and that it can't work, however, just displays your own ignorance when it comes to the MMO market.
forced grouping IS dead and any AAA MMORPG that tries to force grouping will be doomed to be a niche game.
Yup...since them talking pictures have been invented....books is dead. No one will ever read, write or sell a novel again....now that we have movies
Its not the fact that they want to be able to solo that ruins games...
...its their insistance that EVERY game be centered around them thats screwing things up.
They can't force devs to cater to them. If they are the biggest demographic, devs will cater to them to make money, but no one can force them to make those decisions. And I don't see anyone insisting that solo play be the center of every game. Solo players want enough solo content to give them something to do when they log in and have fun,they aren't insisting the game revolve around them. It's the devs that are choosing to cater to them.
I like to group mostly (besides the occasional times I only have an hour to play), but find I have to solo or I'm sitting around waiting to group. Some of this can be caused by design decisions, but also other factors-low population or playing off-times, no one else wanting to do what I want (grinding for resources), etc. And if there wasn't solo content, I would not get to play.
I think DDO has a good system for both, with the difficulty levels on the instanced quests and wilderness areas. You can solo most quests on normal diff (but xp not as good as grouping or on higher diff), many of hard diff, but need group to do elite diff. So you have incentive to group, but not forced. And it's not separate content. In the content on elite, hit one trap can kill you, mobs aren't just tougher, but use higher level spells, so changes strategy, etc. Wilderness areas are very hard to solo if you are on the low end of the level range and will die a lot, so many group in them and to get xp faster.
If you are a soloer, that means you don't like grouping, so don't write a dumb article telling us that you like grouping and are a 'soloer', it doesn't work that way.
First off, I'm a soloer and I like grouping. I am choosy whom I group with. I don't group with kids or tools, know-it-alls and stat-checkers ("No, you need more Hp and this and that etc.). It's difficult to find acceptable players to group with. So I guess you're not much of a mind-reader but you are really great at making ignorant, ill-informed, non-qualified statements. Oh, and as the author of the article it works any way he friggin' wants.
I don't blame soloers, I blame games that don't entice grouping effectively.
Uh huh, given the below, I doubt it.
There's no point in a monthly fee or even playing online if you aren't grouping regularly. Solo some, sure, but no groups at all makes the whole genre pointless.
Nah. Some of us like to be in a populated world as observers of others while we solo. I get plenty of hours and enjoyment out of the game when I solo, just as I do when I group. DO NOT EVER assume you know you know what works for others or that you know what is best for an entire genre. It is arrogant. Someone soloing a game impacts you ZERO personally, period. You've just fallen into the myth that MMORPG's are ruined by soloers because of "game mechanics altertions" that no one seems capable of specifying.
However, your ignorance aside, here's why I solo: Grouping is easy, soloing is hard. It's that simple. Sure most solo quests are simple but Soloing an Elite mob or higher-level mob through resourcfulness and a proper use of skills and timing (one that soloers aren't meant to kill) is a thrill and a challenge and gives me greater sense of accomplishment. Having to keep an area clear of mobs, re-pops and adds while you make your way to an Elite mob before they all pop again during the fight with said Elite is very difficult because you're alone, on the clock and no one has your back. Burning through a dungeon with 5 others who have your back is not difficult-it is easy.
Sure it's super-fun with the right people, but that's the point. I'm not going to not play if I can't find a group. I'm going to solo and I find ways to make it challenging. Higher-level Elites, etc...
That's why I solo. Challenge. If it were up to me every single piece of gear in any given MMORPG would be available as a solo drop...but ONLY if it is EXTREMELY difficult to do and takes all friggin' day in a stinky dungeon or long quest where I die or am in danger of dying a lot and/or starting over.
See, this all breaks down to lifeless little twits who think Raid gear makes them elite when all it means is they survived a long push with 23 others and killed a dragon...again with 23 others. Took some strategy, took some thought (heard the clank), probably died a few times trying at first, but ultimately the outcome was never in doubt. They didn't die alone. They didn't have to start over and it probably took 2 hours tops.
It is the fostering of the Elite through the same ol', same ol'. Raid (easy) and get the purple stuff, solo and settle for less. I've raided plenty. Burned out on it.
Still love to play solo. Don't like it? Tough noogies. Mind your business because although I may prefer soloing, I'm not remotely alone in my opinion and we're not going away.
Personally I find its not the soloers that ruin the game. Its when the majority of the play is solo that it gets stale and old fast for me. Then when you go to get a group, everyone is busy with their soloing. Then you get the exciting game play of sitting lfg for hours just to get nothing done.
Even worse you go to the zone you want to get a group for and you see groups just to find out its a few people boxing. Farming the mobs that you need for your quests or for the story line your working on. Honestly this seems to ruin the game more than anything.
Just wish there was a better way for a game to mix the 2 styles so it is not soloer vs groupers. Even in the game you will see more of the solo classes over the more group friendly classes. Seems by most that if you play a low dps low hp support class because you like that role. then need help to do just about anything we either have to go play a more solo friendly alt and beg for a group until we get so bored we give up. Or the other oh so fun make a solo class so we can twink the character we really want to play so we can get them leveled up. Then again I can just make a few more accounts and multibox because that is so much fun.
And what i hate is when the creators of the game dumb down a great game so that all can solo, or to "balance the classes", or they make the game so cookie cutter its sad. It would shock me if a game stuck to what they made and back down to the whiners.
oh well im off to go see if i can find a group for something other than the vanilla simple content.
1st point: Everything free. When I choose to play an MMO, I don't look forward to endgame. I don't participate in the "raid for gear to raid for better gear" mentallity. I do, however, expect to be able to earn gear that is suitable for my playstyle. BIS for me won't even come close to BIS for raiders or even regular groupers. And I'm fine with that.
2nd point: Casual gamer. I consider myself casual because I don't want to be associated with those who consider themselves Hardcore. I usually try to get an hour or two a night in playing my game of choice, but there are times when I'll get the rare 6 hour gaming session. I even took a week off of work for the launch of STO. And occasionally spend my vacation days to stay home and play all day. That is not casual.
3rd point: I agree with the writer. I like to group, but I don't like to be forced to group.
4th and 5th points: I'm not socially inept, but I am, at times, very anti-social. I really don't like people very much and there are those who say people like me shouldn't play online games. But there are times I come out of my shell and meet people and become friends. I've flown across the country to meet my guild leader before.
6th point: Honestly? I couldn't care less about those who say my playstyle interferes with theirs. If I'm going to plop down the monies to play a game, I'm going to play it on my terms. Just like everyone else. And, I'm not going to get upset when there is content that I can't do because it requires me to do something I don't enjoy.
points 1-6. check.
yup. this describes both me and my wife playing MMO's very well. other than you mentioning playing STO, and flying oversees to see your GM, i almost could have written that.
Sorry but that just came across as a rant devoid of actual content.
For a start there are next to no "all group, all the time people" so I am unsure where you are getting that one from. Some believe that in order to attempt certain things in a social driven gaming genre you should have to group up, utilize alliances with other players. Not sure how that is all group, all the time but there you go.
Being able to solo in an mmorpg is great. Being able to solo everything to the detriment of community features in a game is far from great.
We don't want everything for free:
Great, the issue some have is when it becomes clear that some solo players do in fact want to be able to do everything solo. You should be able to attempt to do anything you want in a game on your tod. But making everything viable for a solo player, really? "Oh God I don't want a player driven economy, that means I have to rely on other crafters!!". "You mean a guild of players has an advantage in getting territory to me as a solo player, zomg that sucks!!!".
Casual players:
Your write up doesn't seem to tie in well with the solo player part but lets look at it anyway. Not everyone has 6 hours to play a game. True that. But then there are many, many, many gaming genres that provide instant access fun tailored to solo players. There are many games which tailor to instant fun, social games. Creating mmos that suit this audience does two things; first of all it creates what are in effect, piss poor versions of games that are already out. Secondly it means that all the investment money in the mmorpg genre is thrown at the casual crowd. That's fair enough, but then even the most blinkered person should see that kind of has a negative impact upon the longer term, sandbox style, social meta game based mmorpgs.
We Belong/We are not socially inept/We like grouping:
Er okay? Again the issue most have is the incessant demand to be able to do everything solo. Amazingly enough you could happily do your own thing in older mmos. It is the need to be able to have the uber gear and wtfpwn without any help from other people which is what some find somewhat strange in an mmo.
Breaking the game:
In an ideal world plenty of money would be thrown at complex, sandbox games and plenty of money would be thrown at catering to the ever increasing, pick up and play, go go go casual crowd. This isn't an ideal world and 99% of the money goes to the biggest cash cow. The market is homogenised due to the way the business works.
No one has an issue with solo players in mmos. No one wants grouping all the time. No one thinks solo players "don't belong". Some have an issue with the drive to make everything soloable to the detriment of social mechanics and complexity. Some have an issue with making everything about immediacy. Some see that the market is becoming more and more solo/casual. Whilst understandable, it's not exactly what everyone wants given there are already other gaming genres out there which already do a better job at catering to that crowd.
not all solo players think they should get everything for free, or by easy solo play.
example. I play solo very much in MMO's. it can be exciting (especially with open pvp) but my favorite part of MMO's is small group content, like a dungen in WoW or EQ2. i don't really like raids, because they seem idiotic in design. sorry. this is just how i have always felt. i play to immerse myself in a fantasy world, and being in a group with 10-25-40 people, where everyone stands on top of each other and hits ONE thing for 15 minute intervals is boring and NOT much fun.
i have rarely, if ever, read a fantasy story or even watched a movie where that many 'EPIC HEROS' are all together in one spot, all hitting the same guy at one time. it is lame.... i get way more immersed in small group content because it actually reflects the fantasy stories i grew up loving.
ohh. another reason i love solo play. i have a slim chance of being in 'vent' and having to hear these people talk. i want to know players as their avatars. i want players to know me by my avatar. i don't want to hear your voice. i don't want to hear your ill-attempted racist humor. i don't want to hear about your REAL LIFE, and i don't want to talk about mine. i want to live (play) in a fantasy world and immerse myself. for me, large group combat contradicts that (not talking about in PvP. i love huge pvp battles).
i could go on forever, but for now i will close with- the term solo-player is a joke to be honest. if you are playing an MMO, you are never really solo, and as long as you contribute to the game world in some small way, you are a part of the community.
PS- For a close, there are next to no 'all solo all the time people' so i am unsure where you are getting that from.
Originally posted by travamars PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game. Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?
PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.
Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.
Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?
PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.
Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?
Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.
Soloers don't destroy MMOs, but MMOs that cater to and create avenues for solo game play do. The solo game play is just not engaged in by those who wouldn't play the game otherwise, it is engaged in by nearly everyone that plays, since it is the simplest path. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all this is - an opinion. I think practically everyone who looks at the issue from a more detatched, less selfish perspective would state the opposite. Catering to soloers destroys MMOs.
Worlds where no one says a single word , that is what is common in MMO's today..If you do not have to say ANYTHING then NOTHING will be said...
No Innovation in MMO's today can or will change that, atleast nothing that has been inplemented in the new batch of games lately..It doesn't matter if you reward grouping with higher XP or social points or whatever.. Most players will still just do the thing that requires them to do as little as possible to reach their goals.
Sure in games like Rift , you are basically auto joined in groups all the time, but these are not groups, they show up at the side of your UI for a while then leave when their objective is done..Basically still soloing
Forcing something sounds very harch, but that is what games has done in ALL it's existance, it's called within the rules of gameplay..In the beginning of MMORPG*s the rules for gameplay was that you needed help to make most goals come true, this alone "forced" players to communicate ...But NEVER did i hear discussions about this back then, people played and adapted and if they didnt have alot of time, well then It had to take the time , maybe it should take them a few years. Now I like to say..Todays batch of games forces you to SOLO instead
The trick is to have a game that still is interessting for all characthers without changing the rules, then players WILL do anything that is required from them, they will group if that is required, but ONLY if the gameplay is GREAT ..
BAck then, there was little choice in games, the gameplay was tedious but still GREAT for a selected few, but for most it was just odd. or rather most had not even herd of EverQuest or UO or AC
Now we have lots of MMO's, but almost every single rule has been changed or altered a bit, That means it's not even the same genre anymore..
I'd say ...Give this genre a NEW name, so the players that longs for a real MMORPG can stop looking in all the wrong places.
I like to think that ...All players want challenge in their games, and if the gameplay is GREAT they WILL overcome obstacles such as finding or beiing in a group ..
HArdcore singleplayer games released in 2011 , Demon Souls etc proves this theory, If Bethsoft would have made Skyrim like Demon Souls not many would have liked it, because the GAMEPLAY is not that great from the beginning.
Sure It captures you in the beginning , It has a breathtaking world and so on but that feeling doesn't last that long for most of us, after that..It has to have GREAT gameplay, and well..The gameplay in Skyrim is not that great after you spent your first 20-40 hours in that game, you just want to hurry to the end..
Ohh yes..I know that there is players in that game with 200-400 Hours etc, but those players already belongs in the chategorie that would love a Skyrim with better harder gameplay even more...
This is just a theory, my theory, I can be all wrong ofcourse
I dont know how you can write that article with a straight face.
The MMO genre has degraded to an online rpg's with multiplayer options. They are played exactly like you would play a single player RPG. (for this argument I am not refering to single player vs multiplaer when i say single player rpg) What do you do when you buy a new single player RPG ? you play it for a few month then your looking for the next game. That type of play is cancerous for an MMORPG. But then again devs are not stupid so their development of the games are cheepened and streamlined, for that type of play.
I mostly blame Single player RPG games for the desruction of MMO's. 10-15 years ago I thought some would have evolved to online rpg's to fill the market. But not the de-evolution of MMO's.
IMO MMO's are about choices/option. Kind of like waking up out of bed on a nice saturday morning, and saying what am I going to do today, where am I going today. Options are gone in MMO's these days, your on a nice little rollercoaster everything is planned and laid out in a nice little path end game is nice and structured raid t1, then t2 etc etc etc.
Now onto solo'ers. They destroy the community. which was a major feature of an MMO. I remember playing FFXI and in XP groups having to stay and play extra maybe even for hours while my replacement got there to fill my spot, or while you look for a replacement. You didnt just want to say ok im done and bail on the group. You sure as hell didnt want to you name being cast in a negative light. As a playeer in XI you knew who the self centered people were. Word got around. Those people had harder times getting groups, and rightfully so.
Now in MMO's if you group for whatever reason. once people get theirs (whatever it is) they just drop group and run along. its sad. I could write a small novel on this subject but ill leave it alone, i just want to quote something from the article and reply to it. really quickly.
"My car is a multi-passenger vehicle, but that doesn’t mean I can’t drive it unless I have someone else in there with me"
I like the analogy but this is the problem with MMORPG's everything is scaled down now. In auto terms MMORPG's are more like a bus, sure you can drive a bus around by yourself but its awfull damn stupid.
i don't know how you can say 'SPG's ruined MMORPG". if anything, MMO's ruined SPG's. before MMO's, single player games were actually fun. now, all the majority of sword/magic games are MMO's, and i look at them 1st becuase they are fantasy games, and second because they are MMO's. i was really sad years ago,when every cool looking game came with a sub-fee..... but yes, i eventually gave in, and only because i love my Night Elves.
today, many great ideas, and hypothetically great SPGs are instead ruined so that they may become MMORPG's and rip off their customers with sub fees. many SPGs are RUINED because in this age, everything HAS to come with an 'online mode' and more attention is put into making it online, than actually making it a great game. this said. i LOVE playing online games. but my love for it does not change what 'online play' did to ruin VIDEO GAMES as a whole.
i'm wondering. when you got to -
"Now onto soloers'-
you do realize, that you went on a tangent, that has nothing to do with soloers, unless you are just assuming every soloer is a me me me, fast fast fast, now now now type. that whole ponint out of the 'novel you could write' is more about self-centered people than soloers. i find it close-minded and sad that you so easily generalize people in that way.
also, just to pick on you, it is hilarious that you said you could 'write' a whole novel about something, yet decided your point was best said by 'linking' something someone else said. remind me to never buy your books.
Soloers are fine, I do it most of the time, but when you have a game that is designed to keep people mostly soloing SW *cough* TOR then there is something fundamentally wrong with it, in regards to MMORPGs.
Isabelle Parsley, for speaking against the will of the holy Order of the Full Loot Forced Grouping PVP Sandbox, we have deemed you our mortal enemy. Our holy hivemind is most displeased with your blasphemous words.
Specially trained archer/mage hybrid assassins will be sent to your residence as soon as possible.
Sorry but that just came across as a rant devoid of actual content.
For a start there are next to no "all group, all the time people" so I am unsure where you are getting that one from. Some believe that in order to attempt certain things in a social driven gaming genre you should have to group up, utilize alliances with other players. Not sure how that is all group, all the time but there you go.
Being able to solo in an mmorpg is great. Being able to solo everything to the detriment of community features in a game is far from great.
We don't want everything for free:
Great, the issue some have is when it becomes clear that some solo players do in fact want to be able to do everything solo. You should be able to attempt to do anything you want in a game on your tod. But making everything viable for a solo player, really? "Oh God I don't want a player driven economy, that means I have to rely on other crafters!!". "You mean a guild of players has an advantage in getting territory to me as a solo player, zomg that sucks!!!".
Casual players:
Your write up doesn't seem to tie in well with the solo player part but lets look at it anyway. Not everyone has 6 hours to play a game. True that. But then there are many, many, many gaming genres that provide instant access fun tailored to solo players. There are many games which tailor to instant fun, social games. Creating mmos that suit this audience does two things; first of all it creates what are in effect, piss poor versions of games that are already out. Secondly it means that all the investment money in the mmorpg genre is thrown at the casual crowd. That's fair enough, but then even the most blinkered person should see that kind of has a negative impact upon the longer term, sandbox style, social meta game based mmorpgs.
We Belong/We are not socially inept/We like grouping:
Er okay? Again the issue most have is the incessant demand to be able to do everything solo. Amazingly enough you could happily do your own thing in older mmos. It is the need to be able to have the uber gear and wtfpwn without any help from other people which is what some find somewhat strange in an mmo.
Breaking the game:
In an ideal world plenty of money would be thrown at complex, sandbox games and plenty of money would be thrown at catering to the ever increasing, pick up and play, go go go casual crowd. This isn't an ideal world and 99% of the money goes to the biggest cash cow. The market is homogenised due to the way the business works.
No one has an issue with solo players in mmos. No one wants grouping all the time. No one thinks solo players "don't belong". Some have an issue with the drive to make everything soloable to the detriment of social mechanics and complexity. Some have an issue with making everything about immediacy. Some see that the market is becoming more and more solo/casual. Whilst understandable, it's not exactly what everyone wants given there are already other gaming genres out there which already do a better job at catering to that crowd.
not all solo players think they should get everything for free, or by easy solo play.
example. I play solo very much in MMO's. it can be exciting (especially with open pvp) but my favorite part of MMO's is small group content, like a dungen in WoW or EQ2. i don't really like raids, because they seem idiotic in design. sorry. this is just how i have always felt. i play to immerse myself in a fantasy world, and being in a group with 10-25-40 people, where everyone stands on top of each other and hits ONE thing for 15 minute intervals is boring and NOT much fun.
i have rarely, if ever, read a fantasy story or even watched a movie where that many 'EPIC HEROS' are all together in one spot, all hitting the same guy at one time. it is lame.... i get way more immersed in small group content because it actually reflects the fantasy stories i grew up loving.
ohh. another reason i love solo play. i have a slim chance of being in 'vent' and having to hear these people talk. i want to know players as their avatars. i want players to know me by my avatar. i don't want to hear your voice. i don't want to hear your ill-attempted racist humor. i don't want to hear about your REAL LIFE, and i don't want to talk about mine. i want to live (play) in a fantasy world and immerse myself. for me, large group combat contradicts that (not talking about in PvP. i love huge pvp battles).
i could go on forever, but for now i will close with- the term solo-player is a joke to be honest. if you are playing an MMO, you are never really solo, and as long as you contribute to the game world in some small way, you are a part of the community.
PS- For a close, there are next to no 'all solo all the time people' so i am unsure where you are getting that from.
you sir sound like a mmorpg player. i really didnt think they stil existed but am happy to hear they do.
Soloers don't destroy MMOs, but MMOs that cater to and create avenues for solo game play do. The solo game play is just not engaged in by those who wouldn't play the game otherwise, it is engaged in by nearly everyone that plays, since it is the simplest path. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all this is - an opinion. I think practically everyone who looks at the issue from a more detatched, less selfish perspective would state the opposite. Catering to soloers destroys MMOs.
i do not think i have EVER heard anyone say-
'catering to solo players does not ruin MMO's'
and just to clear that up....
catering to any vocal minority ruins mmos.
Dev make easier content because it is cheaper to make, and make it soloable because the 'hardcore raid crowd' hates leveling their characters, or stayin g on one raid for very long. oh wait! that only happens some of the time i bet, just like EVERY other point made in this thread.
terms like solo/hardcore/casual are funny, or at least how they are over-used and often misused on this site. have a great day.
Isabelle Parsley, for speaking against the will of the holy Order of the Full Loot Forced Grouping PVP Sandbox, we have deemed you our mortal enemy. Our holy hivemind is most displeased with your blasphemous words.
Specially trained archer/mage hybrid assassins will be sent to your residence as soon as possible.
Originally posted by AcmeGamer Originally posted by PukeBucket
Originally posted by travamars PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game. Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point? PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting. Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?
Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.
All of that just sounded like euphemisms about mutual masturbation.
That again proves that solo activities are inferior.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Comments
Really Vesavius? Please read my previous post. Isabelle isn't trolling, she is stating a clear point in my opinion. See my previous post on this.
forced grouping IS dead and any AAA MMORPG that tries to force grouping will be doomed to be a niche game.
Soloing is fine in MMOs and despite my love for Everquest 1 I don't think I'd ever play an MMO again that had forced grouping (sure, some classes in EQ could solo to max level, but most couldn't). However, making soloing the most eficient way to level is bad, in my opinion. Soloing should be viable in MMOs, but IMO, it should never be the preferred way to play.
Yup...since them talking pictures have been invented....books is dead. No one will ever read, write or sell a novel again....now that we have movies
They can't force devs to cater to them. If they are the biggest demographic, devs will cater to them to make money, but no one can force them to make those decisions. And I don't see anyone insisting that solo play be the center of every game. Solo players want enough solo content to give them something to do when they log in and have fun,they aren't insisting the game revolve around them. It's the devs that are choosing to cater to them.
I like to group mostly (besides the occasional times I only have an hour to play), but find I have to solo or I'm sitting around waiting to group. Some of this can be caused by design decisions, but also other factors-low population or playing off-times, no one else wanting to do what I want (grinding for resources), etc. And if there wasn't solo content, I would not get to play.
I think DDO has a good system for both, with the difficulty levels on the instanced quests and wilderness areas. You can solo most quests on normal diff (but xp not as good as grouping or on higher diff), many of hard diff, but need group to do elite diff. So you have incentive to group, but not forced. And it's not separate content. In the content on elite, hit one trap can kill you, mobs aren't just tougher, but use higher level spells, so changes strategy, etc. Wilderness areas are very hard to solo if you are on the low end of the level range and will die a lot, so many group in them and to get xp faster.
Personally I find its not the soloers that ruin the game. Its when the majority of the play is solo that it gets stale and old fast for me. Then when you go to get a group, everyone is busy with their soloing. Then you get the exciting game play of sitting lfg for hours just to get nothing done.
Even worse you go to the zone you want to get a group for and you see groups just to find out its a few people boxing. Farming the mobs that you need for your quests or for the story line your working on. Honestly this seems to ruin the game more than anything.
Just wish there was a better way for a game to mix the 2 styles so it is not soloer vs groupers. Even in the game you will see more of the solo classes over the more group friendly classes. Seems by most that if you play a low dps low hp support class because you like that role. then need help to do just about anything we either have to go play a more solo friendly alt and beg for a group until we get so bored we give up. Or the other oh so fun make a solo class so we can twink the character we really want to play so we can get them leveled up. Then again I can just make a few more accounts and multibox because that is so much fun.
And what i hate is when the creators of the game dumb down a great game so that all can solo, or to "balance the classes", or they make the game so cookie cutter its sad. It would shock me if a game stuck to what they made and back down to the whiners.
oh well im off to go see if i can find a group for something other than the vanilla simple content.
points 1-6. check.
yup. this describes both me and my wife playing MMO's very well. other than you mentioning playing STO, and flying oversees to see your GM, i almost could have written that.
This article has the "I didn't eat all the cake" argument all over it.
There's crumbs in the box and bits of frosting on the lid of the box.
Soloers didn't completely destroy MMOs, but you know for the most part you did.
Apologies are needed, not excuses.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Soloers don't destroy MMOs. People destroy MMOs. By Soloing. Wait...
I knew I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque...
PVP is whats killing the mmo's. That time and money should be spent developing the game.
Pvp'ers need to play call of duty or something. But i guess they suck at actual pvp games so they want to group up and swing a sword and ruin rpg's.
not all solo players think they should get everything for free, or by easy solo play.
example. I play solo very much in MMO's. it can be exciting (especially with open pvp) but my favorite part of MMO's is small group content, like a dungen in WoW or EQ2. i don't really like raids, because they seem idiotic in design. sorry. this is just how i have always felt. i play to immerse myself in a fantasy world, and being in a group with 10-25-40 people, where everyone stands on top of each other and hits ONE thing for 15 minute intervals is boring and NOT much fun.
i have rarely, if ever, read a fantasy story or even watched a movie where that many 'EPIC HEROS' are all together in one spot, all hitting the same guy at one time. it is lame.... i get way more immersed in small group content because it actually reflects the fantasy stories i grew up loving.
ohh. another reason i love solo play. i have a slim chance of being in 'vent' and having to hear these people talk. i want to know players as their avatars. i want players to know me by my avatar. i don't want to hear your voice. i don't want to hear your ill-attempted racist humor. i don't want to hear about your REAL LIFE, and i don't want to talk about mine. i want to live (play) in a fantasy world and immerse myself. for me, large group combat contradicts that (not talking about in PvP. i love huge pvp battles).
i could go on forever, but for now i will close with- the term solo-player is a joke to be honest. if you are playing an MMO, you are never really solo, and as long as you contribute to the game world in some small way, you are a part of the community.
PS- For a close, there are next to no 'all solo all the time people' so i am unsure where you are getting that from.
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?
PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.
Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.
Soloers don't destroy MMOs, but MMOs that cater to and create avenues for solo game play do. The solo game play is just not engaged in by those who wouldn't play the game otherwise, it is engaged in by nearly everyone that plays, since it is the simplest path. You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all this is - an opinion. I think practically everyone who looks at the issue from a more detatched, less selfish perspective would state the opposite. Catering to soloers destroys MMOs.
Great article! [mod edit]
Worlds where no one says a single word , that is what is common in MMO's today..If you do not have to say ANYTHING then NOTHING will be said...
No Innovation in MMO's today can or will change that, atleast nothing that has been inplemented in the new batch of games lately..It doesn't matter if you reward grouping with higher XP or social points or whatever.. Most players will still just do the thing that requires them to do as little as possible to reach their goals.
Sure in games like Rift , you are basically auto joined in groups all the time, but these are not groups, they show up at the side of your UI for a while then leave when their objective is done..Basically still soloing
Forcing something sounds very harch, but that is what games has done in ALL it's existance, it's called within the rules of gameplay..In the beginning of MMORPG*s the rules for gameplay was that you needed help to make most goals come true, this alone "forced" players to communicate ...But NEVER did i hear discussions about this back then, people played and adapted and if they didnt have alot of time, well then It had to take the time , maybe it should take them a few years. Now I like to say..Todays batch of games forces you to SOLO instead
The trick is to have a game that still is interessting for all characthers without changing the rules, then players WILL do anything that is required from them, they will group if that is required, but ONLY if the gameplay is GREAT ..
BAck then, there was little choice in games, the gameplay was tedious but still GREAT for a selected few, but for most it was just odd. or rather most had not even herd of EverQuest or UO or AC
Now we have lots of MMO's, but almost every single rule has been changed or altered a bit, That means it's not even the same genre anymore..
I'd say ...Give this genre a NEW name, so the players that longs for a real MMORPG can stop looking in all the wrong places.
I like to think that ...All players want challenge in their games, and if the gameplay is GREAT they WILL overcome obstacles such as finding or beiing in a group ..
HArdcore singleplayer games released in 2011 , Demon Souls etc proves this theory, If Bethsoft would have made Skyrim like Demon Souls not many would have liked it, because the GAMEPLAY is not that great from the beginning.
Sure It captures you in the beginning , It has a breathtaking world and so on but that feeling doesn't last that long for most of us, after that..It has to have GREAT gameplay, and well..The gameplay in Skyrim is not that great after you spent your first 20-40 hours in that game, you just want to hurry to the end..
Ohh yes..I know that there is players in that game with 200-400 Hours etc, but those players already belongs in the chategorie that would love a Skyrim with better harder gameplay even more...
This is just a theory, my theory, I can be all wrong ofcourse
i don't know how you can say 'SPG's ruined MMORPG". if anything, MMO's ruined SPG's. before MMO's, single player games were actually fun. now, all the majority of sword/magic games are MMO's, and i look at them 1st becuase they are fantasy games, and second because they are MMO's. i was really sad years ago,when every cool looking game came with a sub-fee..... but yes, i eventually gave in, and only because i love my Night Elves.
today, many great ideas, and hypothetically great SPGs are instead ruined so that they may become MMORPG's and rip off their customers with sub fees. many SPGs are RUINED because in this age, everything HAS to come with an 'online mode' and more attention is put into making it online, than actually making it a great game. this said. i LOVE playing online games. but my love for it does not change what 'online play' did to ruin VIDEO GAMES as a whole.
i'm wondering. when you got to -
"Now onto soloers'-
you do realize, that you went on a tangent, that has nothing to do with soloers, unless you are just assuming every soloer is a me me me, fast fast fast, now now now type. that whole ponint out of the 'novel you could write' is more about self-centered people than soloers. i find it close-minded and sad that you so easily generalize people in that way.
also, just to pick on you, it is hilarious that you said you could 'write' a whole novel about something, yet decided your point was best said by 'linking' something someone else said. remind me to never buy your books.
Soloers are fine, I do it most of the time, but when you have a game that is designed to keep people mostly soloing SW *cough* TOR then there is something fundamentally wrong with it, in regards to MMORPGs.
My gaming blog
Isabelle Parsley, for speaking against the will of the holy Order of the Full Loot Forced Grouping PVP Sandbox, we have deemed you our mortal enemy. Our holy hivemind is most displeased with your blasphemous words.
Specially trained archer/mage hybrid assassins will be sent to your residence as soon as possible.
Please wait 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.
you sir sound like a mmorpg player. i really didnt think they stil existed but am happy to hear they do.
nice post.
i do not think i have EVER heard anyone say-
'catering to solo players does not ruin MMO's'
and just to clear that up....
catering to any vocal minority ruins mmos.
Dev make easier content because it is cheaper to make, and make it soloable because the 'hardcore raid crowd' hates leveling their characters, or stayin g on one raid for very long. oh wait! that only happens some of the time i bet, just like EVERY other point made in this thread.
terms like solo/hardcore/casual are funny, or at least how they are over-used and often misused on this site. have a great day.
LOL! +1
Im confused...Does she knows that she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?
Soloers need to play Super Mario Brothers, your point?
PvP actually can involve and be fun in a massive multiplayer setting.
Ever tried playing Paintball by yourself?
Paintball is for wussies, when I was growing up we used wrist rockets, and bb guns out in the orange groves. We had a limit on how many pumps you could pump the bb guns that had pumps. Woe to those who violated that rule, everyone would turn on that bugger. Of course that was a different world then todays play grounds.
All of that just sounded like euphemisms about mutual masturbation.
That again proves that solo activities are inferior.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.