The funny thing about this whole debate, is that gear will probably have a much greater impact on gameplay than what a lot of people want to believe. At least in PvE that is.
You'll have to be more specific for that sentence to mean anything. What impact?
The same impact gear has in most any other MMO these days. I'm hesitant to believe that GW2 will release using the exact same equipment system as GW1 where gear differences are mostly cosmetic.
Considering that every expansion released after the original box spent some time reversing and trivializing that "no difference between gear skillz r more important" concept--no, it appears to be an outdated idea that Anet has mostly abandoned post-Prophecies.
I'd say that GW2 signals the beginning of the gear race, traditional MMO style.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Are people really for gear not affecting anything at all besides looks? IN pvp and pve?
[Mod Edit]
They weren't ready for it eight years ago, doubtful they would cheer it now.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Your augument is flawed. Yes a wife and kid are more rewarding than a game. Should the fact that you have a wife and kid mean you deserve everything in the game tho?"
No, the fact that he bought the game means that he deserves everything in the game.
"The only hope I have of competing or getting into high end raids or pvp is better gear - and in GW2 that will not happen. "
You don't need anyone else's permission to do the raid quality content in GW2 because anyone and everyone can join in those events. They're open-world events, and everyone who contributes gets their rewards. Thanks to Arenanet and GW2, you'll no longer have to grind to enjoy end-game quality content. You don't even have to be skilled. All you have to do is show up and do your best.
It's interesting how many of these unnecessary conventions have been so ingrained into the minds of MMOG players that the really don't understand how a game can work that isn't built on those conventions.
On one hand I agree with the OP - what use is all your time in the game when you are not going to get better gear? Why even have crafting if better gear means nothing? The answer (from the posters) is that the game is making everyone equal so that the players develop their skills. I say bull feces. My son can and will beat me at an pvp in ANY mmo and has proved it many times. I am not that good a player. Knowing your skills is most of what makes a good player but, no matter what anyone says, it is reflexes (or macros!) that make the better players.
Lol, I'm not that young anymore and my reflexes cannot compete with a 16 year old.. However my stats in TF2 are very impressive. Why? Because I have more experience (not in the game, but in life generally) and I'm a cunning old sort. So I don't play fast-reflex classes such as scout and instead switch between a backburner pyro (i kinda "know" where they are going to huddle thinking no one is coming up the back corridor), fast-turret engineer (turret has reflexes i don't have to take out those whippersnappers out in the open) and heavy when playing with my team so I can yell for support and direct the main thrust if my buddies start loosing focus.
... And TF2 is much more twitch based than GW2 can conceivably be. So, don't worry. PvP, if done right, is as much a game of experience and psychology as it is of reflexes... of course if you decide to play the game instead of being played by it. If you and your son go toe-to-toe as two thieves, he will probably wipe the floor with you. I suggest you play necro and melt his face.
And besides, WvW has a strategic component as well, so i suppose even Stephen Hawking could make himself a legendary player there... You can be a general and never even step into physical combat. Just follow the overall picture and give out intelligent orders and suggestions and everyone will love you for it.
The only hope I have of competing or getting into high end raids or pvp is better gear - and in GW2 that will not happen. You are rewarding the truly skilled. That is ok for the hardcore pvp players. Go ahead and applaud - and find that this game goes the way of the other games that emphasized pvp - Darkfall, AOC, Aion, etc.
As I said above, "skill" comes in many flavors. It's not all reflexes, by far. Especially if you decide not to make it so.
Despite the above I REALLY hope that GW2 does well. I am really looking forward to this game and intend on spending a lot of time in it. From the GW2 videos there are a WHOLE lot of things to do. For me, the best part of the game is leveling up and, from what I have seen, that is going to be REAL fun.
JLGUJDJLVGSJLEGV! GW1 was the same way and it worked QUITE well. As others have said its about skill and fun... not the endless hamster wheel of gear progression.
In WoW, I didn't have the best gear, and I was certainly no match for any twitch-based PvP, but what I excelled at in the battlefields was communication, being able to take direction, and support. I was always the guy guarding a flag nobody else wanted to wait around for. I was the guy that let the team know if the other team was headed for one of our flags. I also loved finding places where I could harass the other team and find ways of making them make mistakes. In WvWvW, there will be all kinds of games-within-the-game to figure out and play.
Originally posted by Malaksbane Since when is fun or having a good time not a reward?
Not sure, but you will find it difficult to motivate players to do much of anything unless rewards are involved. Don't remember the phenomenon being as widespread before WoW, but it's possible my memory is faulty.
Not a problem in GW1, I expect it will not be a problem in GW2. I hold it quite possible that GW2 is not a game for people who can only be motivated when rewards are involved.
Originally posted by William12
Will the aspect of just playing for fun keep millions of people playing this game ? I doubt it. The OP has a point that the GW fans ignore and don't even respond to. People need an incentive to do things. Why do you go to work everyday ? Because you get paid to do it.
I like what I do at my job, I'd do it if I didn't get paid and my daily expenses where taken care of in some other way.
I play games because it's fun, not because I have to achieve something, The idea of logging into a game to do work for some target is quite strange to me. Luckily the designers of Guild wars 1 & 2 seem to have idea's about their game that match my preferences.
Me personally I log on and PVP in games with friends and that makes it fun enough it doesnt matter what game im playing if im doing it with people I like and its the same for gear grinds if im doing it with my guild or friends it doesnt feel like a grind at all.
So, you log into a game not because you enjoying working for something but becasue you enjoy doing things together with friends?
That is what this generation has cost us the social aspect of games the needed grouping/guilding to get things done the need to make friends ...
It seems that GW2 is trying to make grouping... more natural. Guildwars had a fairly easy grouping before Factions was released.
And besides, WvW has a strategic component as well, so i suppose even Stephen Hawking could make himself a legendary player there... You can be a general and never even step into physical combat. Just follow the overall picture and give out intelligent orders and suggestions and everyone will love you for it.
Lol, Stephen Hawkins intelligence isn't neccesarily the same you need for strategy. Stephen have a lot of time to think out while a strategist need to think fast. he also need to have a good sense of logistics.
The best strategist in the world weren't neccesarily the ones with highest IQ, even if being smart rarely hurts there.
Otherwise I agree with you, reflexes is not always what makes you win these kinds of games, and you can actually train up reflexes even if you ain't 18 anymore.
A thief also needs timing which old timers like us often wins at.
"The only hope I have of competing or getting into high end raids or pvp is better gear - and in GW2 that will not happen. "
You don't need anyone else's permission to do the raid quality content in GW2 because anyone and everyone can join in those events. They're open-world events, and everyone who contributes gets their rewards. Thanks to Arenanet and GW2, you'll no longer have to grind to enjoy end-game quality content. You don't even have to be skilled. All you have to do is show up and do your best.
It's interesting how many of these unnecessary conventions have been so ingrained into the minds of MMOG players that the really don't understand how a game can work that isn't built on those conventions.
This is an incredibly good post, well done Meleagar.
Wish there was a way to upvote people on this site sometimes.
In WoW, I didn't have the best gear, and I was certainly no match for any twitch-based PvP, but what I excelled at in the battlefields was communication, being able to take direction, and support. I was always the guy guarding a flag nobody else wanted to wait around for. I was the guy that let the team know if the other team was headed for one of our flags. I also loved finding places where I could harass the other team and find ways of making them make mistakes. In WvWvW, there will be all kinds of games-within-the-game to figure out and play.
Man that was me too!
I couldnt stand the gear progression in WoW, but had to PvP, of course! So I was always gimped from that standpoint.
I would find myself directing attacks if nobody else wanted the job. Or I was stealling flags when everyone was fighting somewhere else. I picked my fights very carefully, usully in a support role.
GW1 sold several million copies without gear progression, the sequel will do just fine. Don't like it, don't play it. Want to try something different, see you in game.
I did. It's surprising how having the best gear can feel so meaningless when every other raider pretty much looks exactly like you after a point. Doesn't matter how bad the armor looks or how much you liked the prior tier's look... so much time wasted on the treadmill, never reaching fulfillment.
From what i understand so far, gear means nothing in Guild wars 2, in both pvp and pve. So that means if you spend hours farming items you wont be better then a dude who say.. just created his character and was boosted to level 80. Gathering nodes are for everyone, so that means everyone can gather from a single node once before it goes away.
So i ask, is time spent playing the game not rewarded? When gear doesnt matter at all, how is it any different then playing call of duty or any other fps game? Why are we doing dungeons if the gear you aquire doesnt matter at all?
Please stop saying for fun. maybe i am not apart of the generation that find everyone being equal all the time to be fun. I think if i spend 40 hours a week farming dungeons while some guy logs on for 2 hours a day just to explore, /dance on a mail box and maybe pvp for 30minutes before he goes for his dinner with the wife and kids, we should not be equal.
It seems like the concensus i am getting from all these news videos are, people love the idea of everything being equal, and the only diversity comes from costume looks. Im not sure when MMOs became about playing barbie, but i want to do a lot more then just dress of my character to set myself apart from the rest.
Are people really for gear not affecting anything at all besides looks? IN pvp and pve?
I did. It's surprising how having the best gear can feel so meaningless when every other raider pretty much looks exactly like you after a point. Doesn't matter how bad the armor looks or how much you liked the prior tier's look... so much time wasted on the treadmill, never reaching fulfillment.
On one hand I agree with the OP - what use is all your time in the game when you are not going to get better gear? Why even have crafting if better gear means nothing? The answer (from the posters) is that the game is making everyone equal so that the players develop their skills. I say bull feces. My son can and will beat me at an pvp in ANY mmo and has proved it many times. I am not that good a player. Knowing your skills is most of what makes a good player but, no matter what anyone says, it is reflexes (or macros!) that make the better players.
Lol, I'm not that young anymore and my reflexes cannot compete with a 16 year old.. However my stats in TF2 are very impressive. Why? Because I have more experience (not in the game, but in life generally) and I'm a cunning old sort. So I don't play fast-reflex classes such as scout and instead switch between a backburner pyro (i kinda "know" where they are going to huddle thinking no one is coming up the back corridor), fast-turret engineer (turret has reflexes i don't have to take out those whippersnappers out in the open) and heavy when playing with my team so I can yell for support and direct the main thrust if my buddies start loosing focus.
... And TF2 is much more twitch based than GW2 can conceivably be. So, don't worry. PvP, if done right, is as much a game of experience and psychology as it is of reflexes... of course if you decide to play the game instead of being played by it. If you and your son go toe-to-toe as two thieves, he will probably wipe the floor with you. I suggest you play necro and melt his face.
And besides, WvW has a strategic component as well, so i suppose even Stephen Hawking could make himself a legendary player there... You can be a general and never even step into physical combat. Just follow the overall picture and give out intelligent orders and suggestions and everyone will love you for it.
The only hope I have of competing or getting into high end raids or pvp is better gear - and in GW2 that will not happen. You are rewarding the truly skilled. That is ok for the hardcore pvp players. Go ahead and applaud - and find that this game goes the way of the other games that emphasized pvp - Darkfall, AOC, Aion, etc.
As I said above, "skill" comes in many flavors. It's not all reflexes, by far. Especially if you decide not to make it so.
Despite the above I REALLY hope that GW2 does well. I am really looking forward to this game and intend on spending a lot of time in it. From the GW2 videos there are a WHOLE lot of things to do. For me, the best part of the game is leveling up and, from what I have seen, that is going to be REAL fun.
See you in game!
I have to admit you have some good points. I too am not a youngster anymore (late 40's), so relying on reflexes doesn't work for me so much; it's the other aspects of the game and my experience that encourage me.
Comments
Considering that every expansion released after the original box spent some time reversing and trivializing that "no difference between gear skillz r more important" concept--no, it appears to be an outdated idea that Anet has mostly abandoned post-Prophecies.
I'd say that GW2 signals the beginning of the gear race, traditional MMO style.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They weren't ready for it eight years ago, doubtful they would cheer it now.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Your augument is flawed. Yes a wife and kid are more rewarding than a game. Should the fact that you have a wife and kid mean you deserve everything in the game tho?"
No, the fact that he bought the game means that he deserves everything in the game.
"The only hope I have of competing or getting into high end raids or pvp is better gear - and in GW2 that will not happen. "
You don't need anyone else's permission to do the raid quality content in GW2 because anyone and everyone can join in those events. They're open-world events, and everyone who contributes gets their rewards. Thanks to Arenanet and GW2, you'll no longer have to grind to enjoy end-game quality content. You don't even have to be skilled. All you have to do is show up and do your best.
It's interesting how many of these unnecessary conventions have been so ingrained into the minds of MMOG players that the really don't understand how a game can work that isn't built on those conventions.
JLGUJDJLVGSJLEGV! GW1 was the same way and it worked QUITE well. As others have said its about skill and fun... not the endless hamster wheel of gear progression.
Well said,pilnkplonk.
In WoW, I didn't have the best gear, and I was certainly no match for any twitch-based PvP, but what I excelled at in the battlefields was communication, being able to take direction, and support. I was always the guy guarding a flag nobody else wanted to wait around for. I was the guy that let the team know if the other team was headed for one of our flags. I also loved finding places where I could harass the other team and find ways of making them make mistakes. In WvWvW, there will be all kinds of games-within-the-game to figure out and play.
I like what I do at my job, I'd do it if I didn't get paid and my daily expenses where taken care of in some other way.
I play games because it's fun, not because I have to achieve something, The idea of logging into a game to do work for some target is quite strange to me. Luckily the designers of Guild wars 1 & 2 seem to have idea's about their game that match my preferences.
So, you log into a game not because you enjoying working for something but becasue you enjoy doing things together with friends?
It seems that GW2 is trying to make grouping... more natural. Guildwars had a fairly easy grouping before Factions was released.
Lol, Stephen Hawkins intelligence isn't neccesarily the same you need for strategy. Stephen have a lot of time to think out while a strategist need to think fast. he also need to have a good sense of logistics.
The best strategist in the world weren't neccesarily the ones with highest IQ, even if being smart rarely hurts there.
Otherwise I agree with you, reflexes is not always what makes you win these kinds of games, and you can actually train up reflexes even if you ain't 18 anymore.
A thief also needs timing which old timers like us often wins at.
This is an incredibly good post, well done Meleagar.
Wish there was a way to upvote people on this site sometimes.
Man that was me too!
I couldnt stand the gear progression in WoW, but had to PvP, of course! So I was always gimped from that standpoint.
I would find myself directing attacks if nobody else wanted the job. Or I was stealling flags when everyone was fighting somewhere else. I picked my fights very carefully, usully in a support role.
Ya there are many ways a person can PvP in GW2
GW1 sold several million copies without gear progression, the sequel will do just fine. Don't like it, don't play it. Want to try something different, see you in game.
I am. If you want a game where "time spent" (read: grind) is rewarded, where gear is everything and skill is nothing - try Rift.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I did. It's surprising how having the best gear can feel so meaningless when every other raider pretty much looks exactly like you after a point. Doesn't matter how bad the armor looks or how much you liked the prior tier's look... so much time wasted on the treadmill, never reaching fulfillment.
Yeah... I need me some GW2.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Sounds like this is just not your type of game!
I agree!