From what I'm reading here people are saying there is no PvE endgame, is this what you are seriously saying?!! I do not PvP, I am purely a PvEr although I'm not very hardcore so I don't need super hard raids and I don't need an end game grind, just something which will keep me interested as a PvEr at end game. Does anyone know if guild wars 2 will do this at least, fom what alot of people have been sayying it looks as though end game is purely PvP with no PvE.
I repeat this every few pages.
You are free my brother, it's time to shed the shackles of "end game". From level 1 to 80, there are thousands of dynamic event quests to take part in. NOt to mention ,that at leavel 80, you can go back to finish up previous leveled content and still be challenged becuse you are always leveled to the area you are in.
There is a dungeon every 10 levels, every dungeon has 4 different versions of it.
There are no raids, or grinds.
This thread is funny. Because it's like talkinga bout Sonic the Hedgehog, and everyone's asking "is there a princess at the end that i can save". Beause for the last 10 years, every game had added princesses ta the end. Where here's a new ga,e there's no princess, instead it's a whole differnet type of ending.
yes that all look to enticing in paper. in the practice translate totally different. a bit too premature to draw a final judgement. since noone here knows a damn thing about how the end game content gonna be like.
True, the only thing I don't believe is the rose-colored future some people draw. My guess is that the endgame is pretty much the same as in other MMO's. We already know that there are daily/weekly/monthly achievements, so we got those "quests" checked. Then we have the instances and pvp bit checked. No raids though. The big difference is the fact that there isn't any "gear grind" in the way of getting new tiers of gear. It's a big difference though, because for a lot of people that was the "carrot on the stick". So in short, I don't think there will be a lot of difference compared to other MMO's concerning the endgame, just that people need to figure out their endgame goals themselves this time.
From what I'm reading here people are saying there is no PvE endgame, is this what you are seriously saying?!! I do not PvP, I am purely a PvEr although I'm not very hardcore so I don't need super hard raids and I don't need an end game grind, just something which will keep me interested as a PvEr at end game. Does anyone know if guild wars 2 will do this at least, fom what alot of people have been sayying it looks as though end game is purely PvP with no PvE.
yes that all look to enticing in paper. in the practice translate totally different. a bit too premature to draw a final judgement. since noone here knows a damn thing about how the end game content gonna be like.
It's honestly not all that different from how it worked in the first game. For those that have never played the first game, it will be something that feels entirely new & different. Quite simple nearly no other MMOs do things this way. However, it worked great in the first game.
Basically, the 'tutorial' section that most MMOs use for players to learn how to play the game functions like the entire lvl grind for GWs.
Think of it this way, in most MMOs you spend the first 5-10 lvls learning the game. Every level after that is basically you waiting to gain full access to your character. Your character isn't 'complete' until endgame. In GW1 and 2, the 'tutorial' part of the game gets you a complete character. You have a full set of skills you can use, and a build that works. Every bit of content played after that is about customization, lore, achievement, and discovery. If you want different playstyles / skillsets / builds, the rest of the game is there to give you that. If you want to unveil more of the story, that's where the PvE fits in. If you want to explore & achieve, again PvE is there for you.
The 'endgame' in a game like this is basically fully completing your character (unlocking everything), running dungeons & such in harder modes for better weapon / armor skins, crafting materials, lore, etc. PvP / WvW, etc. etc. And his is all assuming you never roll an alt, in which you have an entirely new character to flesh out and learn. This is why this design has so much playability. You don't spend your entire time lvling to unlock the one build you are going to use most of the time. You unlock many different styles of play as you go.
That said, GW2 takes a bit of a step back from the GW1 style of 'endgame' (if you really want to call it that). This is because there are lvls in GW2, and they give you more access to traits. Other than that, it functions very much the same.
From what I'm reading here people are saying there is no PvE endgame, is this what you are seriously saying?!! I do not PvP, I am purely a PvEr although I'm not very hardcore so I don't need super hard raids and I don't need an end game grind, just something which will keep me interested as a PvEr at end game. Does anyone know if guild wars 2 will do this at least, fom what alot of people have been sayying it looks as though end game is purely PvP with no PvE.
yes that all look to enticing in paper. in the practice translate totally different. a bit too premature to draw a final judgement. since noone here knows a damn thing about how the end game content gonna be like.
It's honestly not all that different from how it worked in the first game. For those that have never played the first game, it will be something that feels entirely new & different. Quite simple nearly no other MMOs do things this way. However, it worked great in the first game.
Basically, the 'tutorial' section that most MMOs use for players to learn how to play the game functions like the entire lvl grind for GWs.
Think of it this way, in most MMOs you spend the first 5-10 lvls learning the game. Every level after that is basically you waiting to gain full access to your character. Your character isn't 'complete' until endgame. In GW1 and 2, the 'tutorial' part of the game gets you a complete character. You have a full set of skills you can use, and a build that works. Every bit of content played after that is about customization, lore, achievement, and discovery. If you want different playstyles / skillsets / builds, the rest of the game is there to give you that. If you want to unveil more of the story, that's where the PvE fits in. If you want to explore & achieve, again PvE is there for you.
The 'endgame' in a game like this is basically fully completing your character (unlocking everything), running dungeons & such in harder modes for better weapon / armor skins, crafting materials, lore, etc. PvP / WvW, etc. etc. And his is all assuming you never roll an alt, in which you have an entirely new character to flesh out and learn. This is why this design has so much playability. You don't spend your entire time lvling to unlock the one build you are going to use most of the time. You unlock many different styles of play as you go.
That said, GW2 takes a bit of a step back from the GW1 style of 'endgame' (if you really want to call it that). This is because there are lvls in GW2, and they give you more access to traits. Other than that, it functions very much the same.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
It's definitely not for everyone.
Really, it gives you the option of how you want to play it. Those that are looking for endgame 'ie. "What do I raid now? Where's the best loot? Are there any dailies?" etc. are probably not going to enjoy this game as much. As with the first game, there is a lot there, but you kind of have to allow yourself to see it for what it is, instead of trying to fit it into the same box that WoW has placed the genre in. The first game had this same problem, and while it is still praised as one of the better ORPGs ever made, a lot of people still don't understand it.
Hell, I actually enjoyed the first game, but just recently decided to go back over some of the lore in preparation for GW2. What I noticed was that there was a TON of crap that I had overlooked / forgotten about, because I had gotten more used to completing content than actually paying attention to it. This is definitely one of those games where you won't want to do that in. The story is surprisingly good, and not something I had original held up as a standard from the first game. I was too focused on the combat mechanics, and the aesthetics.
That said, this game (GW2) is a step back from the first, in that it caters more towards the traditional MMO crowd. There are epic higher lvl bosses, they just aren't all reserved for endgame. Plus, if you lvled primarily in one race's zones, you can always go to other zones of other races, and fight the epic bosses there. Since it downlvls you it will still be a challenge, which personally I like.
Again, if you play MMOs for the epic gear grind (you always want that feeling of having 'better' gear) this is not the game for you. Also, I know you're looking forward to TERA. What is the draw that game has to you in terms of PvE? Is it mostly the BAMs, the gear, the combat, or the grind-system? Is it the style? (honest question here)
end game is rvr combat in the same zone day in and day out. same as every other pvp game. u will be bored of it in 2 months when u realize the game is really just 1 zone.
Hero Evermore Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982. Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
end game is rvr combat in the same zone day in and day out. same as every other pvp game. u will be bored of it in 2 months when u realize the game is really just 1 zone.
Why is DaoC then 10 Years old? Cause it is so boring?
The important thing is the playstyle from every individual i think. If pvp pleases you, then it will be the game for you. If not, look for something else.
daoc is to ugly. gameplay is great but its all "zomg remember doac" not many peeps playing it. and to say gw2 is going to have that type of combat is SO WRONG!!!! GW2 rvr is instanced!!! Sure its a big map. but the entire game leads to 1 conclusion. 1 map for pvp progression.
Hero Evermore Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982. Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
It's definitely not for everyone.
Really, it gives you the option of how you want to play it. Those that are looking for endgame 'ie. "What do I raid now? Where's the best loot? Are there any dailies?" etc. are probably not going to enjoy this game as much. As with the first game, there is a lot there, but you kind of have to allow yourself to see it for what it is, instead of trying to fit it into the same box that WoW has placed the genre in. The first game had this same problem, and while it is still praised as one of the better ORPGs ever made, a lot of people still don't understand it.
Hell, I actually enjoyed the first game, but just recently decided to go back over some of the lore in preparation for GW2. What I noticed was that there was a TON of crap that I had overlooked / forgotten about, because I had gotten more used to completing content than actually paying attention to it. This is definitely one of those games where you won't want to do that in. The story is surprisingly good, and not something I had original held up as a standard from the first game. I was too focused on the combat mechanics, and the aesthetics.
That said, this game (GW2) is a step back from the first, in that it caters more towards the traditional MMO crowd. There are epic higher lvl bosses, they just aren't all reserved for endgame. Plus, if you lvled primarily in one race's zones, you can always go to other zones of other races, and fight the epic bosses there. Since it downlvls you it will still be a challenge, which personally I like.
Again, if you play MMOs for the epic gear grind (you always want that feeling of having 'better' gear) this is not the game for you. Also, I know you're looking forward to TERA. What is the draw that game has to you in terms of PvE? Is it mostly the BAMs, the gear, the combat, or the grind-system? Is it the style? (honest question here)
oh don't take me wrong, i did liked Gw1. but once i got to the end , there really wasen't much to do. most people were busy doing dance emotes in the middle of lion's arch.
i think i prefer the old School style more. so i agree with you, this game , may not be for me.
so far, the only thing that , keeps me interested about Gw2. is the character creation!p oh i also like the playable races as well. i intend to try the game, at one point or another. i just don't have that huge excitement some other people have, about it.
Dynamic events can get very annoying after awhile. rift and warhammer comes to mind.
Well, he is not entirely false either.... the more i think about it, there is one thing from the normal 1-80 gameplay missing at level 80 and thats the feeling of progression. I think that might be a gamebreaker for some people. I am still not sure if i myself can live without any true feeling of progression.
Progression.. I remember progression.
It was not getting slightly better gear as you grind the same instances over and over, it was getting new abilities, AAs and raising your basic stats.
No MMO have launched the last 10 years with progression, at least not after the few weeks it takes you to max out your character. You don't get better, you just run in a hamsterwheel for the next tier gear.
Gear is not progression.
Progression is everything that makes your character stronger... but somehow i agree with you that gear progression (espescially when its over the top) cant compete with other types of progression.
But there have been some games launched in the last 10 years with reasonable to very good non gear progression.
-EQ2 (AA)
-DDO (reroll new character with higher starting point)
-DCUO (weapons and skill points grinding)
-AoC (AAA)
Most of these however where added after release. An AA system could be a great add for GW2 in an upcomming expansion. Where the AA system would allow for more freedom in character customisation and no more levels need to be added. But we will see which road Arenanet will walk during the future.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
i did not know hardcore meant, likes to do repetitive things to get rewards so they can beat up weaker players so they can pretend they are a better player.
i also did not know that hardcore players need to be carroted along by a easy to impliment system meant to make them pay more and more with subs
The endgame will be grinding for gear/rank that doesn't bring you as significant power gains as is traditional in the genre.
For people who don't understand what the OP means by endgame, he means the game after reaching max level.
People are putting A LOT of faith into GW2 because it's different, and because of seriously massive hype. Personally, I can't see the point of grinding gear that doesn't even bring me power - and I was never a fan of structured and instanced "sports" PvP - whether they call it World vs World or a large Battleground.
That's too articial for my tastes, and with a 2 week reset - it's just more "fair" and pointless.
To boil it down:
I'm sick and tired of the traditional themepark. But I don't see the second coming in GW2. They seem to think that by removing grind to power and replacing it with grind to prestige/look/ranks is a positive evolution. I don't see that. They also seem to think that making all classes capable of all roles is a postive evolution. I don't see that. They also seem to think that World PvP is about an instanced area with a sports-like structure, that will inevitably be a numbers game. I don't see that.
From what I've seen of the personal story, it's pretty amateur - with juvenile writing. SWtOR (with all its flaws) is much, much better in that way.
The best part about GW2 is the actual questing content. It's very "free" and open - and I suspect the game from 1-80 will be entertaining and pleasant, if you can make yourself believe it will lead to something that makes the effort worthwhile.
From what I'm reading here people are saying there is no PvE endgame, is this what you are seriously saying?!! I do not PvP, I am purely a PvEr although I'm not very hardcore so I don't need super hard raids and I don't need an end game grind, just something which will keep me interested as a PvEr at end game. Does anyone know if guild wars 2 will do this at least, fom what alot of people have been sayying it looks as though end game is purely PvP with no PvE.
yes that all look to enticing in paper. in the practice translate totally different. a bit too premature to draw a final judgement. since noone here knows a damn thing about how the end game content gonna be like.
It's honestly not all that different from how it worked in the first game. For those that have never played the first game, it will be something that feels entirely new & different. Quite simple nearly no other MMOs do things this way. However, it worked great in the first game.
Basically, the 'tutorial' section that most MMOs use for players to learn how to play the game functions like the entire lvl grind for GWs.
Think of it this way, in most MMOs you spend the first 5-10 lvls learning the game. Every level after that is basically you waiting to gain full access to your character. Your character isn't 'complete' until endgame. In GW1 and 2, the 'tutorial' part of the game gets you a complete character. You have a full set of skills you can use, and a build that works. Every bit of content played after that is about customization, lore, achievement, and discovery. If you want different playstyles / skillsets / builds, the rest of the game is there to give you that. If you want to unveil more of the story, that's where the PvE fits in. If you want to explore & achieve, again PvE is there for you.
The 'endgame' in a game like this is basically fully completing your character (unlocking everything), running dungeons & such in harder modes for better weapon / armor skins, crafting materials, lore, etc. PvP / WvW, etc. etc. And his is all assuming you never roll an alt, in which you have an entirely new character to flesh out and learn. This is why this design has so much playability. You don't spend your entire time lvling to unlock the one build you are going to use most of the time. You unlock many different styles of play as you go.
That said, GW2 takes a bit of a step back from the GW1 style of 'endgame' (if you really want to call it that). This is because there are lvls in GW2, and they give you more access to traits. Other than that, it functions very much the same.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
[mod edit]
Different strokes for different folks. GW2 is not a gear grind. If you want gear grind, raid based content then stick with games like WoW/Rift/SWTOR/Tera. The thing is some of us have grown bored of that style of progression and are looking ahead to a game that many of us will hope push this genre in a different direction.
I myself am mainly interested in the first truely open world RvR type of PvP since DAoC and the fact that I will be doing PvE content for fun not because I "need" to get better gear to do the next highest dungeon/raid. I find it extremely probable that running the over 1500 Dynamic Events will take a very long time to get bored not to mention many of them will end in boss battles. Plus I have a huge world to explore with tons of crooks and hidden places bursting with hidden challenges.
GW2 is not perfect, it even has some things I dont particularly care for, but it does have ALL the things I look for in an MMO, namely: Exploration, a world that feels alive (instead of the glorified lobby based MMOs we have in SWTOR/WoW/Rift where everyone stands around the capital cities waiting on the next instanced queue), Meaningful PvP in an RvR setting and a sense of community pride.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Well, he is not entirely false either.... the more i think about it, there is one thing from the normal 1-80 gameplay missing at level 80 and thats the feeling of progression. I think that might be a gamebreaker for some people. I am still not sure if i myself can live without any true feeling of progression.
Progression.. I remember progression.
It was not getting slightly better gear as you grind the same instances over and over, it was getting new abilities, AAs and raising your basic stats.
No MMO have launched the last 10 years with progression, at least not after the few weeks it takes you to max out your character. You don't get better, you just run in a hamsterwheel for the next tier gear.
Gear is not progression.
Progression is everything that makes your character stronger... but somehow i agree with you that gear progression (espescially when its over the top) cant compete with other types of progression.
But there have been some games launched in the last 10 years with reasonable to very good non gear progression.
-EQ2 (AA)
-DDO (reroll new character with higher starting point)
-DCUO (weapons and skill points grinding)
-AoC (AAA)
Most of these however where added after release. An AA system could be a great add for GW2 in an upcomming expansion. Where the AA system would allow for more freedom in character customisation and no more levels need to be added. But we will see which road Arenanet will walk during the future.
Dont forget the Realm Rank system from DAoC. Something that could be implemented in this game with great appeal.
I agree though, I long for some sort of non gear based Alternate Advancement system.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Some people have speculated from earlier Anet statements, that end game will not be an end game at all. It will be Anet playing God with Dynamic Events on a regular basis. Remember, the world can change without much effort to code. Zones can be devastated, overrun ect. I personally don't expect to see more dungeouns, more gear, or even new classes added to the game. Perhaps more weapons for reaching certain levels of achievments or exploring certain hard to find/reach areas. But most of the other typical things we expect as "progression, will be in the form of expantions or campaigns.
Progression ala gear grind, is for a player who is somewhat OCD inclined. If you ask me, they added the 80 levels, just to throw this group off for a while. But I doubt they will get their money's worth from GW2, and I don't see that as a bad thing.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
What this genre REALLY needs is added meaning for extended play, and taking away the minimal meaning present is NOT a step in the right direction.
We need actual player influence and a true dynamic playfield (not samey events from a random pool that never makes a difference). We need something like an evolved EvE Online, only with entertaining core gameplay in place of the dreary spreadsheet approach.
We need true world PvP with real consequences, not a large instanced sports-match with a 2 week reset.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
It worked for GW1, which is one of top 10 best selling PC games of all time, why would it not work for GW2?
Seriously, if anyone wants to know how gear progression will work in GW2, just go play GW1. It works, get over it and move on.
I strongly disliked GW1, so obviously I don't think it worked.
But if you liked GW1 - I think you're right, you might just like GW2 more.
If the reason you didnt like GW1 is because you had the best gear available to you as soon as you hit level 20, and only had to grind for appearance gear, then yes - GW2 is not the game for you.
There are people still playing GW1 for PvE many years after the last expansion was released, because there is heaps to do. But if you need to have forced gear progression to make you feel better than new players then the game really wont appeal to you.
From my perspective, it just removes the barrier to having fun. A good player can jump straight into a harder dungeon with friends without grinding gear for 3 months to be at a level where they are acceptable to join. The reward for playing games should be the content itself, not some sort of epeen stroking gear score contest. And I say that from the perspective of someone who usually has the best in slot raid gear, not a casual player.
A lot of high-itemization-demands players could never make the adjustment, it is true.
But remember, before Diablo, that itemization model didn't truly exist. There are other viable ideas.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
It worked for GW1, which is one of top 10 best selling PC games of all time, why would it not work for GW2?
Seriously, if anyone wants to know how gear progression will work in GW2, just go play GW1. It works, get over it and move on.
I strongly disliked GW1, so obviously I don't think it worked.
But if you liked GW1 - I think you're right, you might just like GW2 more.
If the reason you didnt like GW1 is because you had the best gear available to you as soon as you hit level 20, and only had to grind for appearance gear, then yes - GW2 is not the game for you.
There are people still playing GW1 for PvE many years after the last expansion was released, because there is heaps to do. But if you need to have forced gear progression to make you feel better than new players then the game really wont appeal to you.
From my perspective, it just removes the barrier to having fun. A good player can jump straight into a harder dungeon with friends without grinding gear for 3 months to be at a level where they are acceptable to join. The reward for playing games should be the content itself, not some sort of epeen stroking gear score contest. And I say that from the perspective of someone who usually has the best in slot raid gear, not a casual player.
If you want to bash people who don't necessarily think GW2 is the second coming, that's ok.
But if you really want to understand why, you should probably try not to put me in a tiny box to suit your vision of what I must be like to not love GW2 before it's released.
As I already said, I LOATHE the traditional vertical gear progression - and it's not at all what I want from the genre.
I want a REASON to continue playing, and as hollow as gear progression is - it's at least a reason. It's just a reason that's not enough for me.
Now, GW2 TAKES that reason and replaces it with "prestige" progression. It doesn't actually ADD anything new at all. It just expects you to enjoy playing the same kind of content present in all other themepark MMOs without actually giving you a new reason to.
This means you can now enjoy content for the sake of content, which is what so many people apparently think is a briliant innovation. I think it's completely opposite to what should have been done.
Content can only last for so long, no matter how great it is - and no matter what you call it. A "dynamic event" will not change the nature of it being the same content recycled or changed up. Just like Rift invasions didn't change that you were doing the same things over and over and over. That's an illusion.
You're right, GW2 doesn't look like it's for me - and that's no big deal. I'm just trying to understand why so many people think it's going to be so fantastic. So far, I can only assume that you really like doing the same things over and over, and you don't actually care about progression. That's fair enough, but very strange to me.
I am a more "hardcore" type of player. So not having ANY grind at the end of a game for me would be pretty dull, and pointless.
I've played almsot every MMO out there, the cost is nothing to be. However, I read that end game is this game is no raids, anti grind, and from what I read borderline pointless. So basically I hit max level and, walk around trying to get titles?
I will point out that the videos and gameplay reviews for this game has kind of won me over, but I hated Guild Wars 1.
Wait, you say NOT having a grind is dull and pointless? Dull and pointless is the definition of grind. Doing the same thing over and over again ... hours of wasted time to wait for some RNG to decide for you? No thanks. That's not hardcore, that's insane. I did that for 4 years and I'd give anything to have all of those hours back. 4 nights a week for 4-6 hours a pop ... never again.
If the gear is the only point of raiding all your hard work is about to get nuked AGAIN by another expac.
I still feel that WoW made the huge mistake of not making the "Loremaster" achievement give the best rewards. Actually completing content and playing the game should give better rewards than hitting the same loot pinatas for 2 months.
A lot of high-itemization-demands players could never make the adjustment, it is true.
But remember, before Diablo, that itemization model didn't truly exist. There are other viable ideas.
Is that a joke?
Loot has been an essential factor of pretty much all RPGs since the 70s when PnP started. There's a reason for this and it's because people like it. Diablo was based on the rogue-likes, and they used vertical gear progression as well.
Being in denial about it isn't going to change that you like to upgrade your character, because you're human.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
True, the only thing I don't believe is the rose-colored future some people draw. My guess is that the endgame is pretty much the same as in other MMO's. We already know that there are daily/weekly/monthly achievements, so we got those "quests" checked. Then we have the instances and pvp bit checked. No raids though. The big difference is the fact that there isn't any "gear grind" in the way of getting new tiers of gear. It's a big difference though, because for a lot of people that was the "carrot on the stick". So in short, I don't think there will be a lot of difference compared to other MMO's concerning the endgame, just that people need to figure out their endgame goals themselves this time.
It's honestly not all that different from how it worked in the first game. For those that have never played the first game, it will be something that feels entirely new & different. Quite simple nearly no other MMOs do things this way. However, it worked great in the first game.
Basically, the 'tutorial' section that most MMOs use for players to learn how to play the game functions like the entire lvl grind for GWs.
Think of it this way, in most MMOs you spend the first 5-10 lvls learning the game. Every level after that is basically you waiting to gain full access to your character. Your character isn't 'complete' until endgame. In GW1 and 2, the 'tutorial' part of the game gets you a complete character. You have a full set of skills you can use, and a build that works. Every bit of content played after that is about customization, lore, achievement, and discovery. If you want different playstyles / skillsets / builds, the rest of the game is there to give you that. If you want to unveil more of the story, that's where the PvE fits in. If you want to explore & achieve, again PvE is there for you.
The 'endgame' in a game like this is basically fully completing your character (unlocking everything), running dungeons & such in harder modes for better weapon / armor skins, crafting materials, lore, etc. PvP / WvW, etc. etc. And his is all assuming you never roll an alt, in which you have an entirely new character to flesh out and learn. This is why this design has so much playability. You don't spend your entire time lvling to unlock the one build you are going to use most of the time. You unlock many different styles of play as you go.
That said, GW2 takes a bit of a step back from the GW1 style of 'endgame' (if you really want to call it that). This is because there are lvls in GW2, and they give you more access to traits. Other than that, it functions very much the same.
if end game in GW2 is anything like the first, i think i would get bored quite fast with it. i recall end content in GW1 was grinding instances for drops, over and over. and some pvp.
in other words. same old thing, every other game end content is.
It's definitely not for everyone.
Really, it gives you the option of how you want to play it. Those that are looking for endgame 'ie. "What do I raid now? Where's the best loot? Are there any dailies?" etc. are probably not going to enjoy this game as much. As with the first game, there is a lot there, but you kind of have to allow yourself to see it for what it is, instead of trying to fit it into the same box that WoW has placed the genre in. The first game had this same problem, and while it is still praised as one of the better ORPGs ever made, a lot of people still don't understand it.
Hell, I actually enjoyed the first game, but just recently decided to go back over some of the lore in preparation for GW2. What I noticed was that there was a TON of crap that I had overlooked / forgotten about, because I had gotten more used to completing content than actually paying attention to it. This is definitely one of those games where you won't want to do that in. The story is surprisingly good, and not something I had original held up as a standard from the first game. I was too focused on the combat mechanics, and the aesthetics.
That said, this game (GW2) is a step back from the first, in that it caters more towards the traditional MMO crowd. There are epic higher lvl bosses, they just aren't all reserved for endgame. Plus, if you lvled primarily in one race's zones, you can always go to other zones of other races, and fight the epic bosses there. Since it downlvls you it will still be a challenge, which personally I like.
Again, if you play MMOs for the epic gear grind (you always want that feeling of having 'better' gear) this is not the game for you. Also, I know you're looking forward to TERA. What is the draw that game has to you in terms of PvE? Is it mostly the BAMs, the gear, the combat, or the grind-system? Is it the style? (honest question here)
end game is rvr combat in the same zone day in and day out. same as every other pvp game. u will be bored of it in 2 months when u realize the game is really just 1 zone.
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Why is DaoC then 10 Years old? Cause it is so boring?
The important thing is the playstyle from every individual i think. If pvp pleases you, then it will be the game for you. If not, look for something else.
Aerowyn's Video Compilation of ALL things Guild Wars 2
daoc is to ugly. gameplay is great but its all "zomg remember doac" not many peeps playing it. and to say gw2 is going to have that type of combat is SO WRONG!!!! GW2 rvr is instanced!!! Sure its a big map. but the entire game leads to 1 conclusion. 1 map for pvp progression.
Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
oh don't take me wrong, i did liked Gw1. but once i got to the end , there really wasen't much to do. most people were busy doing dance emotes in the middle of lion's arch.
i think i prefer the old School style more. so i agree with you, this game , may not be for me.
so far, the only thing that , keeps me interested about Gw2. is the character creation!p oh i also like the playable races as well. i intend to try the game, at one point or another. i just don't have that huge excitement some other people have, about it.
Dynamic events can get very annoying after awhile. rift and warhammer comes to mind.
Progression is everything that makes your character stronger... but somehow i agree with you that gear progression (espescially when its over the top) cant compete with other types of progression.
But there have been some games launched in the last 10 years with reasonable to very good non gear progression.
-EQ2 (AA)
-DDO (reroll new character with higher starting point)
-DCUO (weapons and skill points grinding)
-AoC (AAA)
Most of these however where added after release. An AA system could be a great add for GW2 in an upcomming expansion. Where the AA system would allow for more freedom in character customisation and no more levels need to be added. But we will see which road Arenanet will walk during the future.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
i did not know hardcore meant, likes to do repetitive things to get rewards so they can beat up weaker players so they can pretend they are a better player.
i also did not know that hardcore players need to be carroted along by a easy to impliment system meant to make them pay more and more with subs
The endgame will be grinding for gear/rank that doesn't bring you as significant power gains as is traditional in the genre.
For people who don't understand what the OP means by endgame, he means the game after reaching max level.
People are putting A LOT of faith into GW2 because it's different, and because of seriously massive hype. Personally, I can't see the point of grinding gear that doesn't even bring me power - and I was never a fan of structured and instanced "sports" PvP - whether they call it World vs World or a large Battleground.
That's too articial for my tastes, and with a 2 week reset - it's just more "fair" and pointless.
To boil it down:
I'm sick and tired of the traditional themepark. But I don't see the second coming in GW2. They seem to think that by removing grind to power and replacing it with grind to prestige/look/ranks is a positive evolution. I don't see that. They also seem to think that making all classes capable of all roles is a postive evolution. I don't see that. They also seem to think that World PvP is about an instanced area with a sports-like structure, that will inevitably be a numbers game. I don't see that.
From what I've seen of the personal story, it's pretty amateur - with juvenile writing. SWtOR (with all its flaws) is much, much better in that way.
The best part about GW2 is the actual questing content. It's very "free" and open - and I suspect the game from 1-80 will be entertaining and pleasant, if you can make yourself believe it will lead to something that makes the effort worthwhile.
[mod edit]
Different strokes for different folks. GW2 is not a gear grind. If you want gear grind, raid based content then stick with games like WoW/Rift/SWTOR/Tera. The thing is some of us have grown bored of that style of progression and are looking ahead to a game that many of us will hope push this genre in a different direction.
I myself am mainly interested in the first truely open world RvR type of PvP since DAoC and the fact that I will be doing PvE content for fun not because I "need" to get better gear to do the next highest dungeon/raid. I find it extremely probable that running the over 1500 Dynamic Events will take a very long time to get bored not to mention many of them will end in boss battles. Plus I have a huge world to explore with tons of crooks and hidden places bursting with hidden challenges.
GW2 is not perfect, it even has some things I dont particularly care for, but it does have ALL the things I look for in an MMO, namely: Exploration, a world that feels alive (instead of the glorified lobby based MMOs we have in SWTOR/WoW/Rift where everyone stands around the capital cities waiting on the next instanced queue), Meaningful PvP in an RvR setting and a sense of community pride.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Dont forget the Realm Rank system from DAoC. Something that could be implemented in this game with great appeal.
I agree though, I long for some sort of non gear based Alternate Advancement system.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Some people have speculated from earlier Anet statements, that end game will not be an end game at all. It will be Anet playing God with Dynamic Events on a regular basis. Remember, the world can change without much effort to code. Zones can be devastated, overrun ect. I personally don't expect to see more dungeouns, more gear, or even new classes added to the game. Perhaps more weapons for reaching certain levels of achievments or exploring certain hard to find/reach areas. But most of the other typical things we expect as "progression, will be in the form of expantions or campaigns.
Progression ala gear grind, is for a player who is somewhat OCD inclined. If you ask me, they added the 80 levels, just to throw this group off for a while. But I doubt they will get their money's worth from GW2, and I don't see that as a bad thing.
I certainly promise to leave you guys alone, if the game turns out to replace vertical gear progression with vertical prestige progression.
As much as I loathe the cheap approach to gear progression in modern MMOs, I can only see myself loathing prestige progression more.
If people really think content will be more fun because you remove/reduce the reward, I think they have a surprise coming.
What this genre REALLY needs is added meaning for extended play, and taking away the minimal meaning present is NOT a step in the right direction.
We need actual player influence and a true dynamic playfield (not samey events from a random pool that never makes a difference). We need something like an evolved EvE Online, only with entertaining core gameplay in place of the dreary spreadsheet approach.
We need true world PvP with real consequences, not a large instanced sports-match with a 2 week reset.
It worked for GW1, which is one of top 10 best selling PC games of all time, why would it not work for GW2?
Seriously, if anyone wants to know how gear progression will work in GW2, just go play GW1. It works, get over it and move on.
I strongly disliked GW1, so obviously I don't think it worked.
But if you liked GW1 - I think you're right, you might just like GW2 more.
If the reason you didnt like GW1 is because you had the best gear available to you as soon as you hit level 20, and only had to grind for appearance gear, then yes - GW2 is not the game for you.
There are people still playing GW1 for PvE many years after the last expansion was released, because there is heaps to do. But if you need to have forced gear progression to make you feel better than new players then the game really wont appeal to you.
From my perspective, it just removes the barrier to having fun. A good player can jump straight into a harder dungeon with friends without grinding gear for 3 months to be at a level where they are acceptable to join. The reward for playing games should be the content itself, not some sort of epeen stroking gear score contest. And I say that from the perspective of someone who usually has the best in slot raid gear, not a casual player.
A lot of high-itemization-demands players could never make the adjustment, it is true.
But remember, before Diablo, that itemization model didn't truly exist. There are other viable ideas.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you want to bash people who don't necessarily think GW2 is the second coming, that's ok.
But if you really want to understand why, you should probably try not to put me in a tiny box to suit your vision of what I must be like to not love GW2 before it's released.
As I already said, I LOATHE the traditional vertical gear progression - and it's not at all what I want from the genre.
I want a REASON to continue playing, and as hollow as gear progression is - it's at least a reason. It's just a reason that's not enough for me.
Now, GW2 TAKES that reason and replaces it with "prestige" progression. It doesn't actually ADD anything new at all. It just expects you to enjoy playing the same kind of content present in all other themepark MMOs without actually giving you a new reason to.
This means you can now enjoy content for the sake of content, which is what so many people apparently think is a briliant innovation. I think it's completely opposite to what should have been done.
Content can only last for so long, no matter how great it is - and no matter what you call it. A "dynamic event" will not change the nature of it being the same content recycled or changed up. Just like Rift invasions didn't change that you were doing the same things over and over and over. That's an illusion.
You're right, GW2 doesn't look like it's for me - and that's no big deal. I'm just trying to understand why so many people think it's going to be so fantastic. So far, I can only assume that you really like doing the same things over and over, and you don't actually care about progression. That's fair enough, but very strange to me.
Wait, you say NOT having a grind is dull and pointless? Dull and pointless is the definition of grind. Doing the same thing over and over again ... hours of wasted time to wait for some RNG to decide for you? No thanks. That's not hardcore, that's insane. I did that for 4 years and I'd give anything to have all of those hours back. 4 nights a week for 4-6 hours a pop ... never again.
If the gear is the only point of raiding all your hard work is about to get nuked AGAIN by another expac.
I still feel that WoW made the huge mistake of not making the "Loremaster" achievement give the best rewards. Actually completing content and playing the game should give better rewards than hitting the same loot pinatas for 2 months.
Is that a joke?
Loot has been an essential factor of pretty much all RPGs since the 70s when PnP started. There's a reason for this and it's because people like it. Diablo was based on the rogue-likes, and they used vertical gear progression as well.
Being in denial about it isn't going to change that you like to upgrade your character, because you're human.
Nope. Unemotional and purely factual.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, I just know that I'll be continually upgrading my character by what I can do with it as opposed to what I put on it, so I'm happy.
Oderint, dum metuant.
As was the dream from which your reality spawned