Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
Apparently you are too young to remember, but:
1. Body blocking..oh you mean otherwhise known as cock blocking or being a prick to other players by standing in doorways or on top of objectives, so you could not pass or progress in the game until one person moved or the guy took a ban.
2. Enjoy the fps lag that comes with this. Also enjoy this message "you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ..."""""
3. Another idiotic idea that does not work in a fantasy mmo. Noone in there right mind would be stupid enough to roll a melee character if this was in a game.
4. uhohh someone cast a heal instant death. No clear organization of boss fight.
Can people please stop trying to apply real life rules to fantasy mmo's? I play these things to escape reality. Go play second life if you want this crap.
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
Apparently you are too young to remember, but:
1. Body blocking..oh you mean otherwhise known as cock blocking or being a prick to other players by standing in doorways or on top of objectives, so you could not pass or progress in the game until one person moved or the guy took a ban.
2. Enjoy the fps lag that comes with this. Also enjoy this message "you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ..."""""
3. Another idiotic idea that does not work in a fantasy mmo. Noone in there right mind would be stupid enough to roll a melee character if this was in a game.
4. uhohh someone cast a heal instant death. No clear organization of boss fight.
Can people please stop trying to apply real life rules to fantasy mmo's? I play these things to escape reality. Go play second life if you want this crap.
1. In EQ those who blocked door ways got on KOS lists, were known as jerks and generally didn't get groups or progress. It really wasn't a problem.
2. EQ had los for arrows and bolt type spells (and it worked)
3. EQ had friendly fire (infact it made things easier in some cases because you could refresh charms on your pets in EQ and you could have your necro's use draining abilities to provide mana to the healers on raids.
4. Taunting never really made sense anyways but in EQ it was based on the amount of damage you accumulated to the enemy. There were no "force-taunt" abilities.
So basically your complaint that you shouldn't apply real life rules to fantasy MMO's when they were introduced to the genre at least 13 years ago really doesn't hold water (as they all worked in EQ)
Blocking projectiles - No shooting arrows through enemies or friends
Friendly fire - Careful with those fireballs
Improved AI - No more taunting
Apparently you are too young to remember, but:
1. Body blocking..oh you mean otherwhise known as cock blocking or being a prick to other players by standing in doorways or on top of objectives, so you could not pass or progress in the game until one person moved or the guy took a ban.
2. Enjoy the fps lag that comes with this. Also enjoy this message "you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ..."""""
3. Another idiotic idea that does not work in a fantasy mmo. Noone in there right mind would be stupid enough to roll a melee character if this was in a game.
4. uhohh someone cast a heal instant death. No clear organization of boss fight.
Can people please stop trying to apply real life rules to fantasy mmo's? I play these things to escape reality. Go play second life if you want this crap.
You are a primary example of an entrenched mind that cannot see past the trinity and cannot imagine a game without it.
No body blocking in non-combat areas - solved.
The game does not lag if player numbers are managed. Sure that means no more 100+ player battles but I'm willing to sacrifice that for more advanced game mechanics.
Ofcourse it works. Poorly with harsh death penalties tho. Better if death is not so unforgiving (downed state as in D&D and GW2 maybe?). You just have to design the game around it.
When you have no trinity, you design the game with that in mind. D'oh. Instakilling mobs would be the first to go. Party roles come from the game mechanics. When there's no taunting or traditional tankin, new party roles will emerge, it is inevitable. It all depends on what the mechanics are and how combat plays out. There will always be some roles and organization you can be sure about that.
I am not applying real-life rules. Far from it. I am just trying to propose rules that make combat vastly different and perhaps a bit more demanding/challenging. Nothing is easier than tank 'n' spank.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I won't argue that getting rid of the trinity solves some issues, but it also creates new problems.
PvP Disorganization- okay we got rid of tank specs but now I don't know what my teammates build is, nor do they know mine. Time to run around and be a solo BG hero.
Grouping- tanks and healers will be replaced by X class(s) that bring the best damage, CC, and buffs for the group. Theory crafters continue to make life miserable for players that want to play their special snowflake build into a group
Hard Mode content- Bosses are not going to stop cleaving and spawning adds and leaving pools of fire on the ground just because it's not a trinity based game anymore. Either you switch to a spec that can deal with it or you get benched. The same with every other MMO.
FoTM- "Since everybody is designed to do everything" expect a lot of PvP/E tears when someone finds out they can't do something as well as another class. Another MMO with an endless round of buffs/nerfs and rerolling. With a strict trinity, people just accepted the fact that their class had its own strengths and weaknesses and just dealt with it.
I'm probably in the minority but I actually enjoy playing a role in a group setting......The trinity system worked fine for me and the only shortcoming ot if was having to wait for groups or wait for certain people to fill those roles......To me the worse system is when one character can do everything and every fight is just a zergfest.
I won't argue that getting rid of the trinity solves some issues, but it also creates new problems.
PvP Disorganization- okay we got rid of tank specs but now I don't know what my teammates build is, nor do they know mine. Time to run around and be a solo BG hero.
Grouping- tanks and healers will be replaced by X class(s) that bring the best damage, CC, and buffs for the group. Theory crafters continue to make life miserable for players that want to play their special snowflake build into a group
Hard Mode content- Bosses are not going to stop cleaving and spawning adds and leaving pools of fire on the ground just because it's not a trinity based game anymore. Either you switch to a spec that can deal with it or you get benched. The same with every other MMO.
FoTM- "Since everybody is designed to do everything" expect a lot of PvP/E tears when someone finds out they can't do something as well as another class. Another MMO with an endless round of buffs/nerfs and rerolling. With a strict trinity, people just accepted the fact that their class had its own strengths and weaknesses and just dealt with it.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
GW2, using that as the example of a trinity-free game, handles all these issues already. You may think the PvP looks disorganized, but the combat plays differently. You watch for visual cues of when you foe is about to use a big attack and react accordingly. You watch when your allies may need help and react. You may see your ally place an initiator and you position yourself to take advantage of that. Knowing builds is less important than knowing the fight.
Grouping - all professions will have skills that allow them to damage and control the enemy as well as support allies. Group make-up is much less important than working together. Five thieves can work as well as a mixed group. People may adjust utility skills or weapon sets as needed, but by design no one profession will trump any other.
Hard mode is hard for a reason. It's supposed to be. The problem though is that you're still fighting like you're in an older trinity based game. It's not about dealing with the damage, it's about mitigating and avoiding it. It's about dodging out of the way, about interrupting big attacks if you can, about keeping the enemy at a distance when you need to. It's about supplimenting your party member's abililties with your own.
FotM - again, a lack of understanding. All professions don't have to do something as well as all others. You may choose to take an extra control based utility while someone else chooses to take an extra buff. Others will take various things. You'll have a boss, for example, that can one-shot you at melee range if it's attacks hit. Regardless of profession, you'll be able to adjust yourself for that.
I won't argue that getting rid of the trinity solves some issues, but it also creates new problems.
PvP Disorganization- okay we got rid of tank specs but now I don't know what my teammates build is, nor do they know mine. Time to run around and be a solo BG hero.
Grouping- tanks and healers will be replaced by X class(s) that bring the best damage, CC, and buffs for the group. Theory crafters continue to make life miserable for players that want to play their special snowflake build into a group
Hard Mode content- Bosses are not going to stop cleaving and spawning adds and leaving pools of fire on the ground just because it's not a trinity based game anymore. Either you switch to a spec that can deal with it or you get benched. The same with every other MMO.
FoTM- "Since everybody is designed to do everything" expect a lot of PvP/E tears when someone finds out they can't do something as well as another class. Another MMO with an endless round of buffs/nerfs and rerolling. With a strict trinity, people just accepted the fact that their class had its own strengths and weaknesses and just dealt with it.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
GW2, using that as the example of a trinity-free game, handles all these issues already. You may think the PvP looks disorganized, but the combat plays differently. You watch for visual cues of when you foe is about to use a big attack and react accordingly. You watch when your allies may need help and react. You may see your ally place an initiator and you position yourself to take advantage of that. Knowing builds is less important than knowing the fight.
Grouping - all professions will have skills that allow them to damage and control the enemy as well as support allies. Group make-up is much less important than working together. Five thieves can work as well as a mixed group. People may adjust utility skills or weapon sets as needed, but by design no one profession will trump any other.
Hard mode is hard for a reason. It's supposed to be. The problem though is that you're still fighting like you're in an older trinity based game. It's not about dealing with the damage, it's about mitigating and avoiding it. It's about dodging out of the way, about interrupting big attacks if you can, about keeping the enemy at a distance when you need to. It's about supplimenting your party member's abililties with your own.
FotM - again, a lack of understanding. All professions don't have to do something as well as all others. You may choose to take an extra control based utility while someone else chooses to take an extra buff. Others will take various things. You'll have a boss, for example, that can one-shot you at melee range if it's attacks hit. Regardless of profession, you'll be able to adjust yourself for that.
I don't know I still don't see it. When I read your posts (or others) describing GW2 all I can do is count all the things I have to do at once and I just don't see how it's possible to do that and have hard combat.
Your telling me that I will need to do damage, dodge attacks from what I am attacking, watch for adds, watch my health bar, my friends health bar, judge when a heal is needed, judge when an aggro pull is need, keep up mitigatings I might have, watch for any status change on the enemies around, interrupt big attacks they might have, keep the emenies at the right range for my attacks and do this all at the same time? Yeah... again not sure the avg player could do that unless the combat is pretty easy.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Why? Because there used to be more to MMOs than just tanking, healing, and damage.
Seems like no one remembers the support or crowd control roles at all since they were cannibalized by the aforementioned three. Now those three are beginning to eat away at each other as well. I really think its kind of sad.
Would love to have another MMO with a class like the EQ Enchanter or Bard.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
I don't know I still don't see it. When I read your posts (or others) describing GW2 all I can do is count all the things I have to do at once and I just don't see how it's possible to do that and have hard combat.
Your telling me that I will need to do damage, dodge attacks from what I am attacking, watch for adds, watch my health bar, my friends health bar, judge when a heal is needed, judge when an aggro pull is need, keep up mitigatings I might have, watch for any status change on the enemies around, interrupt big attacks they might have, keep the emenies at the right range for my attacks and do this all at the same time? Yeah... again not sure the avg player could do that unless the combat is pretty easy.
I must admit that I will have to actually play this game before I pass judgement on the combat. I do intend to try it as I've heard good things, but I must say, the hours of combat I have watched on youtube have me confused. Most of the videos I see the people are just running around in what appears to be an insanely un-organized mess. It's like they took the stearing wheel of the car...lol. I'm not saying it's bad, as I've never played it and won't pass judgement until I do, I'm just commenting as to the video's I've watched such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRI_twOZ8hI
It almost appears as if they've just done away with tanks and healers and there are groups full of damage and control and that's it. The mob appears, someone locks it down and everyone else just hits every damage button they have until it dies.
I'm sure, like I said, I will need to actually play the game to really see how it works and how they intended it to be so please don't attack me. Just making some broad statements on the video's I've seen.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
I don't know I still don't see it. When I read your posts (or others) describing GW2 all I can do is count all the things I have to do at once and I just don't see how it's possible to do that and have hard combat.
Your telling me that I will need to do damage, dodge attacks from what I am attacking, watch for adds, watch my health bar, my friends health bar, judge when a heal is needed, judge when an aggro pull is need, keep up mitigatings I might have, watch for any status change on the enemies around, interrupt big attacks they might have, keep the emenies at the right range for my attacks and do this all at the same time? Yeah... again not sure the avg player could do that unless the combat is pretty easy.
I must admit that I will have to actually play this game before I pass judgement on the combat. I do intend to try it as I've heard good things, but I must say, the hours of combat I have watched on youtube have me confused. Most of the videos I see the people are just running around in what appears to be an insanely un-organized mess. It's like they took the stearing wheel of the car...lol. I'm not saying it's bad, as I've never played it and won't pass judgement until I do, I'm just commenting as to the video's I've watched such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRI_twOZ8hI
It almost appears as if they've just done away with tanks and healers and there are groups full of damage and control and that's it. The mob appears, someone locks it down and everyone else just hits every damage button they have until it dies.
I'm sure, like I said, I will need to actually play the game to really see how it works and how they intended it to be so please don't attack me. Just making some broad statements on the video's I've seen.
You're exactly right, that's what you see. But keep in mind, you're seeing the press running around half focused on videos with no real idea how to play the game, often levelled up without having a chance to learn. There's a recent video, however, of a couple devs playing. The difference is night and day. I'll try and find the link, but if someone else beats me I won't complain.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
GW2, using that as the example of a trinity-free game, handles all these issues already. You may think the PvP looks disorganized, but the combat plays differently. You watch for visual cues of when you foe is about to use a big attack and react accordingly. You watch when your allies may need help and react. You may see your ally place an initiator and you position yourself to take advantage of that. Knowing builds is less important than knowing the fight.
Grouping - all professions will have skills that allow them to damage and control the enemy as well as support allies. Group make-up is much less important than working together. Five thieves can work as well as a mixed group. People may adjust utility skills or weapon sets as needed, but by design no one profession will trump any other.
Hard mode is hard for a reason. It's supposed to be. The problem though is that you're still fighting like you're in an older trinity based game. It's not about dealing with the damage, it's about mitigating and avoiding it. It's about dodging out of the way, about interrupting big attacks if you can, about keeping the enemy at a distance when you need to. It's about supplimenting your party member's abililties with your own.
FotM - again, a lack of understanding. All professions don't have to do something as well as all others. You may choose to take an extra control based utility while someone else chooses to take an extra buff. Others will take various things. You'll have a boss, for example, that can one-shot you at melee range if it's attacks hit. Regardless of profession, you'll be able to adjust yourself for that.
PvP- You disagree with me that GW2 PvP looks disorganized, and yet your response supports the very definition of disorganized PvP. The fact that players have to react to everything on the fly because there's no way to strategize without knowing what builds your teammates are playing or fighting against. Maybe you enjoy the Fog of War type gameplay, but there's a lot of people who don't. The fact that you assume players in a BG are going to react on the fly to anything their teammates are doing, is giving BGers too much credit. The result generally what you seen in the dozen of GW2 PvP videos of people flying on auto-pilot and hoping the rest of their team knows what they are doing.
FotM - No it's not a lack of understanding. Every class can do everything, but they can't do everything at the same time. That doesn't mean that some classes can't do things better than others. For example Guardians are already saying that their Ranged dps is behind that of other classes, which is a problem for those very melee unfriendly fights that you are talking about. So if ArenaNet buffs Guardian's Ranged dps, then other classes will complain that they have good ranged dps and melee, and will demand buff/nerfs. It's a never ending cycle when you tell players there classes are designed to do everything, because some classes are going to do things better than others.
Hard Mode-This is all great and everything, but it has nothing to do with the trinity. Everything you just described in GW2 can already be done in Trinity based games, except now you don't have the ability to kite mobs or save a group from whipe. So how is getting rid of the trinity making hard mode content better when you have even less options then before?
Grouping- For your own sake I hope you can't clear all the content with a suboptimal group of 5 Rogues. That would mean the content is so easy that you don't need to have the best dps, cc, and or buffs to complete it, or that one class has the best dps, cc, and buffs in the game. The latter is exactly what happened in Rift, why take any other class that does inferior damage, cc, or support then a Rogue, when you can just take another Rogue? So non-Rogue players got the shaft in parties and they just decided to join the Rogue bandwagon until the server had so many Rogues on it, that any suggestion of nerfing them on led to massive amounts of flaming and QQ on the forums. I'm not saying that this is going to happen in GW2 but this is a legitimate issue in other MMOs that ArenaNet should be aware of when designing their classes.
I'm a fan of both trinity and no trinity. Theres something comforting about knowing your role and striving to excel in it. But, theres also something nice about not being restricted by it. My favorite trinity game is rift, just because you are given so many options in terms of your role but are able to excel in a chosen, specfic path. With that said I am looking forward to GW2 and the possiblities and freedoms its going to offer. Although I think we will see folks trying to create specific roles. i.e. tanks and healers.
PvP- You disagree with me that GW2 PvP looks disorganized, and yet your response supports the very definition of disorganized PvP. The fact that players have to react to everything on the fly because there's no way to strategize without knowing what builds your teammates are playing or fighting against. Maybe you enjoy the Fog of War type gameplay, but there's a lot of people who don't. The fact that you assume players in a BG are going to react on the fly to anything their teammates are doing, is giving BGers too much credit. The result generally what you seen in the dozen of GW2 PvP videos of people flying on auto-pilot and hoping the rest of their team knows what they are doing.
FotM - No it's not a lack of understanding. Every class can do everything, but they can't do everything at the same time. That doesn't mean that some classes can't do things better than others. For example Guardians are already saying that their Ranged dps is behind that of other classes, which is a problem for those very melee unfriendly fights that you are talking about. So if ArenaNet buffs Guardian's Ranged dps, then other classes will complain that they have good ranged dps and melee, and will demand buff/nerfs. It's a never ending cycle when you tell players there classes are designed to do everything, because some classes are going to do things better than others.
Hard Mode-This is all great and everything, but it has nothing to do with the trinity. Everything you just described in GW2 can already be done in Trinity based games, except now you don't have the ability to kite mobs or save a group from whipe. So how is getting rid of the trinity making hard mode content better when you have even less options then before?
Grouping- For your own sake I hope you can't clear all the content with a suboptimal group of 5 Rogues. That would mean the content is so easy that you don't need to have the best dps, cc, and or buffs to complete it, or that one class has the best dps, cc, and buffs in the game. The latter is exactly what happened in Rift, why take any other class that does inferior damage, cc, or support then a Rogue, when you can just take another Rogue? So non-Rogue players got the shaft in parties and they just decided to join the Rogue bandwagon until the server had so many Rogues on it, that any suggestion of nerfing them on led to massive amounts of flaming and QQ on the forums. I'm not saying that this is going to happen in GW2 but this is a legitimate issue in other MMOs that ArenaNet should be aware of when designing their classes.
PvP - It only appears chaotic until you get the feel for it. Then it all makes perfect sense. Instead of simply going through a rotation, you're thinking, using the right skills at need, etc. Maybe what we eachconsider chaotic differs... I see an elegance in the thoughts and reactions required.
FotM - Yes, every profession can do everything at the same time. Really, you can. You'll have, at the same time, skills that damage the enemy, control the enemy and support allies and yourself. Chaos storm, a mesmer spell for example. is an AoE damaging spell that also applies random debuffs to the enemy (control aspects on many of them) and random boons on allies in the area. One spell, does all at the same time. Trait clones to cripple on shatter, now control aspect is tied to every clone you shatter as well as other effects... damage, damage prevention, interrupt...
Hard Mode... yes, it can be done without the trinity. That's the exact point. And, by the way, you not only have the ability to kite mobs, but now everyone has to be concious fo doing so. Not only that, with my mesmer above I can keep them crippled for a significant period of time to aid kiting, I can knock them back away from myself and allies, I can even turn one into a moa bird if I wish. You have far more options available when you don't restrict yourself to the generic two tanks, three healers, five dps format.
Grouping... why do you think a group of five thieves is suboptimal? Without a trinity system, and with everyone being able to do all three d/c/s aspects at the same time, five thieves is just as capable as a mixed group, or five mesmers, or two elementalists and three warriors, etc. The professions are built and balanced such that the content is doable this way. That doesn't make the content easy in the least, trust me. It sure as hell makes it fun though. No profession is inferior. No profession is required, or to be avoided. No more waiting for any particular profession, LFG healer to go crap. Take any five and it's up to the players, not the professions.
I'm a fan of both trinity and no trinity. Theres something comforting about knowing your role and striving to excel in it. But, theres also something nice about not being restricted by it. My favorite trinity game is rift, just because you are given so many options in terms of your role but are able to excel in a chosen, specfic path. With that said I am looking forward to GW2 and the possiblities and freedoms its going to offer. Although I think we will see folks trying to create specific roles. i.e. tanks and healers.
When those trying to tank are getting downed in a few hits and those trying to heal realize they can't target allies they'll learn and adapt, or spend their playtime on the ground.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was remove the dedicated control concept that the Enchanter filled in Everquest. They essentially watered down EQ when designing their class roles. As someone said before, the original trinity was Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter, three classes that were required. However, there were numerous roles within Everquest: DPS, healing, control, and tanking being the main four, but there were also off-tanking, off-healing, and support as well that filled up the other party slots.
Naturally, Everquest had the problem of requiring 3 specific classes and all other classes fighting over the remaining group spots, but Blizzard really watered down Everquest when designing their tank-healing-dps combo.
Trinity runs way deeper than AI, taunts, heals. GW2 is still working with the fundamental gameplay that created the trinity. They''re just twisting it around and making it more complicated. All the niftyness will probably make it fun, but it's not like they're reinventing the wheel.
I've seen countless GW2 group content videos and never seen anyone who's been able to effectively Tank (without dying or losing aggro), or Heal others through the damage they take (especially in Explorable mode). It just doesn't happen in GW2. Sure you can take a few hits for someone or provide some splash heals, but you're never stuck in such a role and trying to dedicate yourself to a Tank or Healer role is just not optimal in GW2. Just watch some of the countless gameplay vids to understand how different group combat will be.
I have watched the countless gameplay vids.
Making every player a one-man trinity =/= removal of the trinity.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was remove the dedicated control concept that the Enchanter filled in Everquest. They essentially watered down EQ when designing their class roles. As someone said before, the original trinity was Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter, three classes that were required. However, there were numerous roles within Everquest: DPS, healing, control, and tanking being the main four, but there were also off-tanking, off-healing, and support as well that filled up the other party slots.
Naturally, Everquest had the problem of requiring 3 specific classes and all other classes fighting over the remaining group spots, but Blizzard really watered down Everquest when designing their tank-healing-dps combo.
It "required" those, but you could get by with other combinations. A druid and a bard = plenty of heals. Or if you had a ton of DPS and a smart puller, you could split up the mobs best you could then nuke them before they do too much damage. Typically SOMEONE would have a heal that would reduce the downtime if there was no druid/cleric.
Even working with less than perfect groups, you could get started without a certain role, and get some less-than-optimal xp progress until what you needed appeared.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was remove the dedicated control concept that the Enchanter filled in Everquest. They essentially watered down EQ when designing their class roles. As someone said before, the original trinity was Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter, three classes that were required. However, there were numerous roles within Everquest: DPS, healing, control, and tanking being the main four, but there were also off-tanking, off-healing, and support as well that filled up the other party slots.
Naturally, Everquest had the problem of requiring 3 specific classes and all other classes fighting over the remaining group spots, but Blizzard really watered down Everquest when designing their tank-healing-dps combo.
It "required" those, but you could get by with other combinations. A druid and a bard = plenty of heals. Or if you had a ton of DPS and a smart puller, you could split up the mobs best you could then nuke them before they do too much damage. Typically SOMEONE would have a heal that would reduce the downtime if there was no druid/cleric.
Even working with less than perfect groups, you could get started without a certain role, and get some less-than-optimal xp progress until what you needed appeared.
As an ex-monk and badass feign death puller, QFT. A good puller removed the need for a real tank or even a healer. Good CC could do the same, as could strong buffs/debuffs.
In practice you'll find that you're not switching roles on the fly as has been mentioned in the past. Instead you'll simply be using the right skills when best needed (hopefully). Maybe a mesmer, for example, sees an ally in trouble, so he creates a couple clones to target that ally's foe and, having traited to have clones cripple on shatter, hits F1 to have the clones cripple and damage the foe, giving the ally time to separate from the foe. Then he switches to a staff and throws up a chaos storm to apply random debuffs to the foe, random buffs to the ally and damages the foe as well. The foe gets annoyed with the mesmer and begins to come at him... switch to greatsword, knock the foe back to a safe distance, more clones, more shatters, etc.
Aren't those two sentences describing the same thing? Just the red one phrases it negatively and the green one positively?
In practice you'll find that you're not switching roles on the fly as has been mentioned in the past. Instead you'll simply be using the right skills when best needed (hopefully). Maybe a mesmer, for example, sees an ally in trouble, so he creates a couple clones to target that ally's foe and, having traited to have clones cripple on shatter, hits F1 to have the clones cripple and damage the foe, giving the ally time to separate from the foe. Then he switches to a staff and throws up a chaos storm to apply random debuffs to the foe, random buffs to the ally and damages the foe as well. The foe gets annoyed with the mesmer and begins to come at him... switch to greatsword, knock the foe back to a safe distance, more clones, more shatters, etc.
Aren't those two sentences describing the same thing? Just the red one phrases it negatively and the green one positively?
No, not really. There was the impression that someone could be, for example, in "support" mode then switch to "healer" if the "healer" went down. That's horribly false... it still ties "roles" to the character and not the skills.
Ok then I'm healing one second, DPSing the next, and absorbing hits. You're still playing all the roles. Everyone is a hyrbid class, that's all.
Still can't quite grasp the concept, eh? No worries... it takes a bit for some people.
First, if you're healing, you're healing yourself. You may be able to ground target a splash heal to help allies out, but if they're relying on that to stay alive they're already doomed. If you're absorbing hits you're also doing it wrong. You need to be avoiding hits, mitigating damage, etc. If you see a critter winding up to bring the hurt down on your head you don't stand there and take it. You dodge out of the way. Maybe you stun him if you can and interrupt the attack. Maybe a knockback... it all depends on the skills you've brought plus the weapons you have. This is vastly different from hybrids, which could spec into tank role, dps role, healer role (starting at you paladins out there...).
Still can't quite grasp the concept, eh? No worries... it takes a bit for some people.First, if you're healing, you're healing yourself.
I KNOW you heal yourself. I said I followed GW2 didn't I? Good god....
Ok.... Let's continue.
Originally posted by Volkon
it all depends on the skills you've brought plus the weapons you have. This is vastly different from hybrids, which could spec into tank role, dps role, healer role (starting at you paladins out there...).
Please. Tell me how it's different. Keep in mind not EVERY game has paladins, and "hybrid" classes behave differently in different games. So, understand, when I say hybrid, I'm talking about its relevance to THIS THREAD. I'm talking about mixing abilities of roles of the holy trinity. I'm NOT talking about WoW. Why would you assume I was?
Here are the basic roles in trinity games: DPS, Tank, Healer, CC, Support.
So EVERYONE in GW2 is a healer, their own healer.... BAM! They have abilities of the healer.
Pretty much every prof has buffs, debuffs, and skills to affect enemy movement. So nearly everyone is also Crowd control, Support, or both even.
Leaving us with DPS and Tank.
It seems some profs are more DPSy and vulnerable (like thief and elementalist maybe), and guardian is probably more defensive. But others like Warrior, can use their stance skill and switch their weapon set to go back and forth between defense (tank) and offense (DPS). Plus they can use a trait to negate any cooldown after switching weapon sets.
So I feel like this is how you could describe a GW2 party:
Member 1 = DPS, CC, Support, Healer
Member 2 = DPS, Tank, CC, Support, Healer
Member 3 = DPS, CC, Healer
Member 4 = Tank, CC, Support, Healer
(Also, 5 out of the 8 professions have pets. Just fyi)
If you read Jon Peters' little "Healing and Death" diddy. He get's into how GW2 is SO different from the trinity. But if you read between the lines, he is basically saying these things:
-Apparently we couldn't make a game where a party with two healers won't always beat a party with only one healer, and since PLAYING a HEALER is NO FUN ANYWAY, we turned healing into a hotkey.
-The Crowd Control role is SO FUN AND IMPORTANT, that we gave it to EVERYONE.
-DPS, uhhh, everyone does damage, no further comment.
-Support is like Crowd Control, it's so fun and important, so everyone can do it.
-Tank? What are you talking about?? See: "Support"
In so many words, he's telling you that since everyone does everything, the trinity is INCONCEIVABLE in GW2.
Now...... Don't get me wrong.....
I'm very excited about GW2, despite the totally detectable animosity in this post.
I'm just annoyed that GW2 devs spread disinformation. It's LIES if they tell you they did anything except give the roles of the trinity to all classes. It's like they built their frankenstein professions out of parts from lesser classes of other MMORPGs. They're still using gameplay fundamentals of trinity games. GW2 IS a game of the holy trinity.
Comments
Apparently you are too young to remember, but:
1. Body blocking..oh you mean otherwhise known as cock blocking or being a prick to other players by standing in doorways or on top of objectives, so you could not pass or progress in the game until one person moved or the guy took a ban.
2. Enjoy the fps lag that comes with this. Also enjoy this message "you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ...you are line fo site to your target ..."""""
3. Another idiotic idea that does not work in a fantasy mmo. Noone in there right mind would be stupid enough to roll a melee character if this was in a game.
4. uhohh someone cast a heal instant death. No clear organization of boss fight.
Can people please stop trying to apply real life rules to fantasy mmo's? I play these things to escape reality. Go play second life if you want this crap.
1. In EQ those who blocked door ways got on KOS lists, were known as jerks and generally didn't get groups or progress. It really wasn't a problem.
2. EQ had los for arrows and bolt type spells (and it worked)
3. EQ had friendly fire (infact it made things easier in some cases because you could refresh charms on your pets in EQ and you could have your necro's use draining abilities to provide mana to the healers on raids.
4. Taunting never really made sense anyways but in EQ it was based on the amount of damage you accumulated to the enemy. There were no "force-taunt" abilities.
So basically your complaint that you shouldn't apply real life rules to fantasy MMO's when they were introduced to the genre at least 13 years ago really doesn't hold water (as they all worked in EQ)
You are a primary example of an entrenched mind that cannot see past the trinity and cannot imagine a game without it.
No body blocking in non-combat areas - solved.
The game does not lag if player numbers are managed. Sure that means no more 100+ player battles but I'm willing to sacrifice that for more advanced game mechanics.
Ofcourse it works. Poorly with harsh death penalties tho. Better if death is not so unforgiving (downed state as in D&D and GW2 maybe?). You just have to design the game around it.
When you have no trinity, you design the game with that in mind. D'oh. Instakilling mobs would be the first to go. Party roles come from the game mechanics. When there's no taunting or traditional tankin, new party roles will emerge, it is inevitable. It all depends on what the mechanics are and how combat plays out. There will always be some roles and organization you can be sure about that.
I am not applying real-life rules. Far from it. I am just trying to propose rules that make combat vastly different and perhaps a bit more demanding/challenging. Nothing is easier than tank 'n' spank.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
PvP Disorganization- okay we got rid of tank specs but now I don't know what my teammates build is, nor do they know mine. Time to run around and be a solo BG hero.
Grouping- tanks and healers will be replaced by X class(s) that bring the best damage, CC, and buffs for the group. Theory crafters continue to make life miserable for players that want to play their special snowflake build into a group
Hard Mode content- Bosses are not going to stop cleaving and spawning adds and leaving pools of fire on the ground just because it's not a trinity based game anymore. Either you switch to a spec that can deal with it or you get benched. The same with every other MMO.
FoTM- "Since everybody is designed to do everything" expect a lot of PvP/E tears when someone finds out they can't do something as well as another class. Another MMO with an endless round of buffs/nerfs and rerolling. With a strict trinity, people just accepted the fact that their class had its own strengths and weaknesses and just dealt with it.
I'm probably in the minority but I actually enjoy playing a role in a group setting......The trinity system worked fine for me and the only shortcoming ot if was having to wait for groups or wait for certain people to fill those roles......To me the worse system is when one character can do everything and every fight is just a zergfest.
It's amazing how wrong this post is. It really is. Sigh...
GW2, using that as the example of a trinity-free game, handles all these issues already. You may think the PvP looks disorganized, but the combat plays differently. You watch for visual cues of when you foe is about to use a big attack and react accordingly. You watch when your allies may need help and react. You may see your ally place an initiator and you position yourself to take advantage of that. Knowing builds is less important than knowing the fight.
Grouping - all professions will have skills that allow them to damage and control the enemy as well as support allies. Group make-up is much less important than working together. Five thieves can work as well as a mixed group. People may adjust utility skills or weapon sets as needed, but by design no one profession will trump any other.
Hard mode is hard for a reason. It's supposed to be. The problem though is that you're still fighting like you're in an older trinity based game. It's not about dealing with the damage, it's about mitigating and avoiding it. It's about dodging out of the way, about interrupting big attacks if you can, about keeping the enemy at a distance when you need to. It's about supplimenting your party member's abililties with your own.
FotM - again, a lack of understanding. All professions don't have to do something as well as all others. You may choose to take an extra control based utility while someone else chooses to take an extra buff. Others will take various things. You'll have a boss, for example, that can one-shot you at melee range if it's attacks hit. Regardless of profession, you'll be able to adjust yourself for that.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Shadowbane had number 3 way back in 2003... and it was fun and hard as hell at the same time...lol
I don't know I still don't see it. When I read your posts (or others) describing GW2 all I can do is count all the things I have to do at once and I just don't see how it's possible to do that and have hard combat.
Your telling me that I will need to do damage, dodge attacks from what I am attacking, watch for adds, watch my health bar, my friends health bar, judge when a heal is needed, judge when an aggro pull is need, keep up mitigatings I might have, watch for any status change on the enemies around, interrupt big attacks they might have, keep the emenies at the right range for my attacks and do this all at the same time? Yeah... again not sure the avg player could do that unless the combat is pretty easy.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Would love to have another MMO with a class like the EQ Enchanter or Bard.
I must admit that I will have to actually play this game before I pass judgement on the combat. I do intend to try it as I've heard good things, but I must say, the hours of combat I have watched on youtube have me confused. Most of the videos I see the people are just running around in what appears to be an insanely un-organized mess. It's like they took the stearing wheel of the car...lol. I'm not saying it's bad, as I've never played it and won't pass judgement until I do, I'm just commenting as to the video's I've watched such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRI_twOZ8hI
It almost appears as if they've just done away with tanks and healers and there are groups full of damage and control and that's it. The mob appears, someone locks it down and everyone else just hits every damage button they have until it dies.
I'm sure, like I said, I will need to actually play the game to really see how it works and how they intended it to be so please don't attack me. Just making some broad statements on the video's I've seen.
You're exactly right, that's what you see. But keep in mind, you're seeing the press running around half focused on videos with no real idea how to play the game, often levelled up without having a chance to learn. There's a recent video, however, of a couple devs playing. The difference is night and day. I'll try and find the link, but if someone else beats me I won't complain.
I think this is it... http://www.gameinformer.com/games/guild_wars_2/b/pc/archive/2012/04/13/guild-wars-2-video-preview.aspx
Oderint, dum metuant.
PvP- You disagree with me that GW2 PvP looks disorganized, and yet your response supports the very definition of disorganized PvP. The fact that players have to react to everything on the fly because there's no way to strategize without knowing what builds your teammates are playing or fighting against. Maybe you enjoy the Fog of War type gameplay, but there's a lot of people who don't. The fact that you assume players in a BG are going to react on the fly to anything their teammates are doing, is giving BGers too much credit. The result generally what you seen in the dozen of GW2 PvP videos of people flying on auto-pilot and hoping the rest of their team knows what they are doing.
FotM - No it's not a lack of understanding. Every class can do everything, but they can't do everything at the same time. That doesn't mean that some classes can't do things better than others. For example Guardians are already saying that their Ranged dps is behind that of other classes, which is a problem for those very melee unfriendly fights that you are talking about. So if ArenaNet buffs Guardian's Ranged dps, then other classes will complain that they have good ranged dps and melee, and will demand buff/nerfs. It's a never ending cycle when you tell players there classes are designed to do everything, because some classes are going to do things better than others.
Hard Mode-This is all great and everything, but it has nothing to do with the trinity. Everything you just described in GW2 can already be done in Trinity based games, except now you don't have the ability to kite mobs or save a group from whipe. So how is getting rid of the trinity making hard mode content better when you have even less options then before?
Grouping- For your own sake I hope you can't clear all the content with a suboptimal group of 5 Rogues. That would mean the content is so easy that you don't need to have the best dps, cc, and or buffs to complete it, or that one class has the best dps, cc, and buffs in the game. The latter is exactly what happened in Rift, why take any other class that does inferior damage, cc, or support then a Rogue, when you can just take another Rogue? So non-Rogue players got the shaft in parties and they just decided to join the Rogue bandwagon until the server had so many Rogues on it, that any suggestion of nerfing them on led to massive amounts of flaming and QQ on the forums. I'm not saying that this is going to happen in GW2 but this is a legitimate issue in other MMOs that ArenaNet should be aware of when designing their classes.
I'm a fan of both trinity and no trinity. Theres something comforting about knowing your role and striving to excel in it. But, theres also something nice about not being restricted by it. My favorite trinity game is rift, just because you are given so many options in terms of your role but are able to excel in a chosen, specfic path. With that said I am looking forward to GW2 and the possiblities and freedoms its going to offer. Although I think we will see folks trying to create specific roles. i.e. tanks and healers.
PvP - It only appears chaotic until you get the feel for it. Then it all makes perfect sense. Instead of simply going through a rotation, you're thinking, using the right skills at need, etc. Maybe what we eachconsider chaotic differs... I see an elegance in the thoughts and reactions required.
FotM - Yes, every profession can do everything at the same time. Really, you can. You'll have, at the same time, skills that damage the enemy, control the enemy and support allies and yourself. Chaos storm, a mesmer spell for example. is an AoE damaging spell that also applies random debuffs to the enemy (control aspects on many of them) and random boons on allies in the area. One spell, does all at the same time. Trait clones to cripple on shatter, now control aspect is tied to every clone you shatter as well as other effects... damage, damage prevention, interrupt...
Hard Mode... yes, it can be done without the trinity. That's the exact point. And, by the way, you not only have the ability to kite mobs, but now everyone has to be concious fo doing so. Not only that, with my mesmer above I can keep them crippled for a significant period of time to aid kiting, I can knock them back away from myself and allies, I can even turn one into a moa bird if I wish. You have far more options available when you don't restrict yourself to the generic two tanks, three healers, five dps format.
Grouping... why do you think a group of five thieves is suboptimal? Without a trinity system, and with everyone being able to do all three d/c/s aspects at the same time, five thieves is just as capable as a mixed group, or five mesmers, or two elementalists and three warriors, etc. The professions are built and balanced such that the content is doable this way. That doesn't make the content easy in the least, trust me. It sure as hell makes it fun though. No profession is inferior. No profession is required, or to be avoided. No more waiting for any particular profession, LFG healer to go crap. Take any five and it's up to the players, not the professions.
Oderint, dum metuant.
When those trying to tank are getting downed in a few hits and those trying to heal realize they can't target allies they'll learn and adapt, or spend their playtime on the ground.
Oderint, dum metuant.
This.
I think the worst thing Blizzard did was remove the dedicated control concept that the Enchanter filled in Everquest. They essentially watered down EQ when designing their class roles. As someone said before, the original trinity was Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter, three classes that were required. However, there were numerous roles within Everquest: DPS, healing, control, and tanking being the main four, but there were also off-tanking, off-healing, and support as well that filled up the other party slots.
Naturally, Everquest had the problem of requiring 3 specific classes and all other classes fighting over the remaining group spots, but Blizzard really watered down Everquest when designing their tank-healing-dps combo.
I have watched the countless gameplay vids.
Making every player a one-man trinity =/= removal of the trinity.
It "required" those, but you could get by with other combinations. A druid and a bard = plenty of heals. Or if you had a ton of DPS and a smart puller, you could split up the mobs best you could then nuke them before they do too much damage. Typically SOMEONE would have a heal that would reduce the downtime if there was no druid/cleric.
Even working with less than perfect groups, you could get started without a certain role, and get some less-than-optimal xp progress until what you needed appeared.
As an ex-monk and badass feign death puller, QFT. A good puller removed the need for a real tank or even a healer. Good CC could do the same, as could strong buffs/debuffs.
Aren't those two sentences describing the same thing? Just the red one phrases it negatively and the green one positively?
No, not really. There was the impression that someone could be, for example, in "support" mode then switch to "healer" if the "healer" went down. That's horribly false... it still ties "roles" to the character and not the skills.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Ok then I'm healing one second, DPSing the next, and absorbing hits. You're still playing all the roles. Everyone is a hyrbid class, that's all.
Still can't quite grasp the concept, eh? No worries... it takes a bit for some people.
First, if you're healing, you're healing yourself. You may be able to ground target a splash heal to help allies out, but if they're relying on that to stay alive they're already doomed. If you're absorbing hits you're also doing it wrong. You need to be avoiding hits, mitigating damage, etc. If you see a critter winding up to bring the hurt down on your head you don't stand there and take it. You dodge out of the way. Maybe you stun him if you can and interrupt the attack. Maybe a knockback... it all depends on the skills you've brought plus the weapons you have. This is vastly different from hybrids, which could spec into tank role, dps role, healer role (starting at you paladins out there...).
Oderint, dum metuant.
I KNOW you heal yourself. I said I followed GW2 didn't I? Good god....
Ok.... Let's continue.
Please. Tell me how it's different. Keep in mind not EVERY game has paladins, and "hybrid" classes behave differently in different games. So, understand, when I say hybrid, I'm talking about its relevance to THIS THREAD. I'm talking about mixing abilities of roles of the holy trinity. I'm NOT talking about WoW. Why would you assume I was?
Here are the basic roles in trinity games: DPS, Tank, Healer, CC, Support.
So EVERYONE in GW2 is a healer, their own healer.... BAM! They have abilities of the healer.
Pretty much every prof has buffs, debuffs, and skills to affect enemy movement. So nearly everyone is also Crowd control, Support, or both even.
Leaving us with DPS and Tank.
It seems some profs are more DPSy and vulnerable (like thief and elementalist maybe), and guardian is probably more defensive. But others like Warrior, can use their stance skill and switch their weapon set to go back and forth between defense (tank) and offense (DPS). Plus they can use a trait to negate any cooldown after switching weapon sets.
So I feel like this is how you could describe a GW2 party:
Member 1 = DPS, CC, Support, Healer
Member 2 = DPS, Tank, CC, Support, Healer
Member 3 = DPS, CC, Healer
Member 4 = Tank, CC, Support, Healer
(Also, 5 out of the 8 professions have pets. Just fyi)
If you read Jon Peters' little "Healing and Death" diddy. He get's into how GW2 is SO different from the trinity. But if you read between the lines, he is basically saying these things:
-Apparently we couldn't make a game where a party with two healers won't always beat a party with only one healer, and since PLAYING a HEALER is NO FUN ANYWAY, we turned healing into a hotkey.
-The Crowd Control role is SO FUN AND IMPORTANT, that we gave it to EVERYONE.
-DPS, uhhh, everyone does damage, no further comment.
-Support is like Crowd Control, it's so fun and important, so everyone can do it.
-Tank? What are you talking about?? See: "Support"
In so many words, he's telling you that since everyone does everything, the trinity is INCONCEIVABLE in GW2.
Now...... Don't get me wrong.....
I'm very excited about GW2, despite the totally detectable animosity in this post.
I'm just annoyed that GW2 devs spread disinformation. It's LIES if they tell you they did anything except give the roles of the trinity to all classes. It's like they built their frankenstein professions out of parts from lesser classes of other MMORPGs. They're still using gameplay fundamentals of trinity games. GW2 IS a game of the holy trinity.