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Do you think [mod edit] SWTOR changed MMO gamers?
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The question is, is it really the dev companies or the publishers? I may be naive but I still want to believe that devs really want to make great games, but without their own money to make games they have to rely on publishers and investors who end up calling the shots.
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but there has to be at least one out there that does, right?
It could be a combination of things. I'm inclined to think its less about TOR's endeavors and more about the current state of the genre and its demographic(s).
Devs are pulling every genre into the MMO realm with a twist or two:
TOR and TSW are bringing srpg.
GW2 and Wildstar are bringing action/adventure.
Tera and Blade&Soul are bringing the 3D fighter.
PS2 and many others are bringing the FPS.
So when you look at what an Elder Scrolls game could bring to the MMO table, a lot of people naturally think sandbox.
That does not appear to be the case. So we are seeing a lot of backlash.
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Very well put OP.
As to SWTOR "failing", as an rpg, as in its initial box sales and current player numbers it is a success, but I don’t see it sustaining numbers, or growing, ever again, except on the grounds of its IP. Purely as an mmo, it is a failure. Mmo players will gravitate towards the superior products that gain respect among players, such as GW2, and hopefully TSW, heck even FFXIV 2.0 has a better chance to win people over with innovation, once it’s out of it's development rut. We are seeing indie projects taking advantage of the new non-corporate publisher culture of kickster etc, and even Cryptic's Neverwinter come up with good ideas, it is only right that those behind the curve pay a price.
Why the heck did you bring up FAIL then? SWTOR has not failed......... YET.
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In case it isn't obvious or that you are somewhat new to mmorpgs, the history of mmorpg has shown most games have a good up front sales with a drop down to 30% retention. Few games have broken that trend.
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It failed to deliver what what promised in it.
It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
It failed to revolutionize the genre as was the claim on it.
It failed to live up to the estimated projections.
A game doesn't have to be a financial disaster to be a failure. It failed in many areas it was supposed to deliver. Probably, the only reason it's not a total failure was the initial boxed sales due to it's massive hype.....Times Square flash mobs anyone?
Oh wait. I'm being told they didn't do that. I'm also being told it's the second most popular mmo inthe western market still, almost six months after launch.
Wait. I'm also being told that the game has MA a boatload of money already an will continue to bring in millions of dollars in revenue every month.
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Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?
FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.
just hope they dont try to copy swtor and make it single player pay to sub mmo.
Are we creating a sliding scale? What qualifies as an MMORPG?
Here is my answer. I used to hate leveling in WOW because it was isolating. Back during the final days of TBC, my brother and I used to play WoW. We wanted to go into WOTLK with fresh toons. He wanted a War, and I wanted a Pally (I never actually switched to it when it went live, but meh, not important) Anyway, WE agreed to level the 2 as a pair. We had to choose the same race. If we both weren't online, we would not level, we would focus on skills and crafting if one was online when the other wasn't. I can't tell you how much of a pain this was. Frankly, it required far too much planning and coordination. We succeeded in reaching 70 before the expansion hit, but it really was difficult to stay paced with each other. SWTOR, would not have even been possible to do this.
So...if we use that to define the game, you tell me.
Umm Yes you can do that in SWTOR - I am still looking to see if you consider WoW a MMO though. A simple yes or No and I would be able to put your original opinion in correct context.
Thanks
The reason SW:TOR isn't living up to expectations isn't really because it was modeled after WoW. Anyone who had realistic expectations (the only expectations worth discussing) knew that SW:TOR was going to feel a lot like World of Warcraft. For the first 49 levels of the game, you could tell it was a little rough around the edges, but the quest content was just as good if not better than WoW. The storylines from even some of the side quests helped the game feel less like a grind and more like a traditional role playing game.
The biggest issue is that at level 50, the story content stops and what you're left with has been done far better in other games. Class balance is a mess, hardmode flashpoints are pointless, and the only method of progression at 50 is either grinding PvP matches or grinding enough dailies so you can get your mods and earrings to make you raid ready.
I don't think at all that the cocensus about swtor on these forums is of it failing. Maybe it failed in regards to being "the" MMO people have been looking for but it was pretty obvious it was going to cater to the bigger demographic and in that it has found great success...much more than any other MMO launched in these past few years.
As for the main question at hand, I don't think it is at all SWTOR that changed people's mind that's absurd. It simply is the fact that the ESO is so different than what people would expect from it, a series that is crowned the best open world rpg suddenly decides to move away from core mechanics.
It has made the community as a whole much more skeptical.
kinda a fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me kinda thing.
Its simple really. If this is what a failure looks like...a boatload of preorder and launch box sales, then months of decline untill it reaches a natural and steady sub level...then were going to keep seeing failures i guess.
Yeah im sure they wont spend so much on voice actors ect down the line.
Not sure where the OP gets his info about most people considering it a failure. I played 3 months, i dont consider it a failure. I dont play and probably wont ever again.
Do you guys consider consol games failures if they cant continually sell millions of compies over 7 years?
I just think the failure talk is possibly the dumbest application of the word. A game fails when it shuts down, i could consider a p2p failing if it goes f2p...but thats usually a misnomer since most just go to a really long trial then p2p for the whole game as a marketing strategy, and call it free.....yeah didnt you notice wow is apparently free now (lol)
Also the claim that this forum usually doesn lable games failures is pretty wild, most games are fails on this site for some reason or another.
But if your suggesting that people put their money where their mouth is and demand better games, then i would suggest that what is happening with mmorpgs, especially p2p games, is that we are voting "yes we like this" while raging how we hate it on 3rd party forums no one important reads. Its like the teacher giving a student a B+ because they seel sorry for how stupid the kid is and knows hes going to fail at life...poor kids walking around like hes smart.....we keep over hyping game, preordering, realizing they are nothing special other than new, then complain while preordering the next game just like the last.
We are the kid whos getting the B+....they got us by the balls and nothing going to change.
Just look at some of the games who are actually doing things diffrent...diffrent combat. diffrent game rules....no hype no following struggling. Doesnt take a genius to figure out how to make money, which is the goal of making these game. Serve up a wow-park, overhype slight changes as revolutionary and groundbreaking...game changers...by the time everyone realizes youve made a lot of money...rinse and repeate.
What other games ?
Class balance is not a mess.. there are no OP classes. if YOU mean there are, please tell me what class(es) ?
In what other games dont you grind pvp, flashpoints, dailys, crafting after max level to get raid ready/better gear?
Your entire point is made null and meaningless since The Old Republic didn't fail. Also you don't discuss the question because your question has no basis in reality, and is made up of hyperbole and vague references to a "majority" who don't exist. It's the old tactic of the unenlightened to throw out random untruths and then either change the subject or refuse to discuss them when called out on it.
I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.
Please stick to the topic.
Your entire point is made null and meaningless since The Old Republic didn't fail. Also you don't discuss the question because your question has no basis in reality, and is made up of hyperbole and vague references to a "majority" who don't exist. It's the old tactic of the unenlightened to throw out random untruths and then either change the subject or refuse to discuss them when called out on it.
developers: SWTOR is going to change MMOS forever.community: SWTOR is going to be the next number 1 MMO.
It failed completely in both fronts.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Failure is pretty subjective. Let me explain from my point of view.
The Old Republic was never going to challenge WoW for the title of #1 MMO. The fact is, Star Wars has a limited appeal when you compare it to the "gneralized" fantasy genre that games like WoW and Guild Wars appeals to. Even if The Old Republic was the best MMO ever made, I don't tink it could get more than 4-5 millinos paid subscribers and that's being generous.
I also wouldn't consider TOR to be a failure if what Bioware says is indeed true. If they are still holding at around 1.7 million subscribers, then that's a pretty impressive feat, in all honesty.Will TOR go free to play? I believe so. But to be fair, I also think it's a matter of time before every game goes towards some sort of F2P model. But I think to call a game that has over a million paid subscirbers for over five months... a faiure... is a pretty inaccurate statement.
Is SWTOR a failure?
I dont know - if they get their money back and make some more it is no real failure.
Its maybe a failure in longevity but that is any of the new crowd of games between 2005 and 2011.
TESO will fail at the point that it does probably not deliver a TES experience in a MMO environment as far we know the facts and rumors about facts.
I think they have made a game that may sell well but calls the wrong audience being marketed as TES MMO.
Time will tell.
MMO gamers have grown older since the release of WoW, have experienced much more disapointments, some have gone away from mmos, a minority writes down their disapointment in forums.
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Nope,anyone with any sence and played the beta weekends could see what swtor was all about.Dont think that mmorpg.com is the mmo world,many away from this site are happy about TESO.
Hell,even the TES forums have a pole with 70% still going to buy the game.
As TESO will be PC-only how much is the target crowd of TES fans...500k ?
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I think that SWTOR "faillure" for some, didn't change anything to the MMO industry, but I think it will.
There is a time lag between actual changes and reality. Simpel enought studio that have been developping for X years are coming out with an Alpha or Beta product and therefor exposing thyself to critic.
The developper are sceptical when it come to critic since you got to believe in your product to let it stand critics (sometime unfair critics from internet raging haters) They are no fouls !!
Diablo3 is a good example, develloppers will not change the graphics even after severe critics on them.
It seems really simpel for that matter, after developping for X year you just can't redo it because faceless internet is saying "bah".
Then again the same people saying I don't like it will probably buy it anyway.
And there it is !! that is the very point where it will change, do you want to buy that game anyway or will you buy something else?
AT that time when the game is out and it sells anyway, why should develloppers care about those critics ?
If it's not selling well then they should have care but eitherway they can't just change the game because it was already so much work to make.
For a MMO it is much easier to measure it succes because of the sub numbers, then develloppers will care once they are bleeding with higher cost then income.
All changes will occur in 2 or 3 years, once develloppement studios start to devellop new games, then they can change with what is happening now.
So the real problem is that in between those 2 or 3 years gamers still wanna play and they are gonna buy also some crap games because gamers need to play now.
The point is people that can affort not to care are doing a lot of damage to the people that actually care about the game they buy or bought.
The changes will not come to gamers but gamers themself should change, at least for now.
For now most people shouldn't buy any game right after it's been out but wait and see if it's really, really worth buying.
In a couple of year will see clear changes.
Lucky us there is GW2 that will allow a lot of gamers to be busy with something good while waiting for the changes in the all game industry. (gw2 is changing a lot of things as wel)
Pls rich people don't give in buying about anything new, just because it's new and you are bored.
You' ll still be bored and you 'll support what is boring you.
Diablow 3, it sucks ...
So you take two pieces of advertising-lingo that almost all developers throw out and use it as a basis to claim the game is a "failure." That just makes you look like a whinging child.