Note: GW2, is resolving this problem but the difference between GW2 and other MMO's is GW2 is more of a MOBA than a real true MMORPG. Loot, Time, skill will always be deciding factors in pure MMORPGS.
What you mean is GW2 is a MMORPG that doesn't follow the conventions established previous MMORPGs (but it still is Massively Multiplayer, is Online, etc.).
My view on what skill-based Open World PvP should be is similar to what GW2 has done with their PvE:
- No levels/level scaling per zone
- Influence of gear should be minimal
But yeah, few people want skill-based PvP really (you've got no excuse when you lose and having to face it is hard: you're bad, it's not your gear or level) and people like to be OP (wow I kill all these guys in 1 hit look!).
Guys I am sure that we all know what game this guy likes, lets just ignore the trolls shall we? I mean How can MMORPG games Have Levels? thats unthinkable!!!!!!, A game where you progress and you are stronger than new player? UNREAL!!!!! I can't believe that I even answered him seriously. What has happend to this site's community? at least we were able to reason with them before, but now....
Lewl affected much.
Btw, you are what is wrong with the community, jackass.
I agree. The people complaining about the community are the worst one's themselves. For example, this guy who thinks his way of reasoning is the absolute truth. Gosh forbid that you have an MMORPG where gear and level does not affect that much in PvP. I mean it hasn't done before right? (it has)
You said this before, that there were many MMORPG's where gear and levels don't affect PVP much, besides Planetside and EVE I'm wondering which ones those were. (UO, AC perhaps?)
Starting with Lineage 1 and continuing with DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, AOC, AION, WOW, EQ1, EQ2, Rift, COX, Fallen Earth, Runes of Magic, SWTOR, Vanguard are just a few of the titles I've played where levels>gear>skill.
In fact, you could say with a few rare exceptions, this is the trademark design of most major theme park MMORPG games, which is why many people hate it, they are always looking for fairness in their PVP.
TERA just continues this long standing design tradition, which oddly enough seems to be a surprise to many people in this thread, quite surprising to me that so many expected something more along the lines of GW1/2 which IMO are the anomolies in the genre, and not the rule.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But why did you ever think Tera was "Skill-based" in the way you imagine?
I'm not that far up in levels yet, but till now I didn't really need any "skill" in this game in pve and pvp, and for me this was pretty clear since the first minutes I played it. It was lvl and gears from the beginning.
Level progression and pvp in my opinion, doesn't really fit together. Thats why pvp in many mmorpgs it's almost always not satisfying. As long as a level 15 characters need to beat pve monsters who have 4-10 times the health etc than a lvl 2 monster, your dream just isn't possible. In reality even someone who has no idea about weapons, still has a chance to kill someone with it.
Perhaps there needs to be a seperate progression for pvp and pve in the same game. Or if the developers are a little lazy, they can just allow to start at max lvl if you like to solely pvp.
But I don't know where Tera will be going in that matter.
Or you play a game where there is no pve, except critters and relatively easy animals which roam the world. So you can as a developer focus only on the pvp aspekts of progressing.
---------------------------------------- Evil UO has doomed my poor soul and now I'm wandering restlessly through all MMORPG's, desperately searching for a place to rest in peace.....
PvP FFA ruleset, this was expected! I have no problems with this, though I've yet to be ganked over and over again. Just go level to max and enjoy pvp, dont forget to switch channel if you're having problems!
Starting with Lineage 1 and continuing with DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, AOC, AION, WOW, EQ1, EQ2, Rift, COX, Fallen Earth, Runes of Magic, SWTOR, Vanguard are just a few of the titles I've played where levels>gear>skill.
In fact, you could say with a few rare exceptions, this is the trademark design of most major theme park MMORPG games, which is why many people hate it, they are always looking for fairness in their PVP.
TERA just continues this long standing design tradition, which oddly enough seems to be a surprise to many people in this thread, quite surprising to me that so many expected something more along the lines of GW1/2 which IMO are the anomolies in the genre, and not the rule.
Daoc - Levels played a part but within 2-3 levels not so much. Gear not at all. Our trio would regularly beat groups of 5-8 players. Since gear wasn't grind dependent and stats/resistances reached a cap, most people had similar gear levels. Still one of the only games i've played where you always had to incorpate crafted gear into your end template.
The other titles, (shadowbane was just fun, but crazy ganking), all had terrible pvp/opvp. Which is why they're never mentioned when discussing great pvp games. Even in daoc the opvp servers failed because people are basically cunts and would rather attack when they have the upper hand as appose to being battle ready for a fight. NO one likes playing on those odds so people stuck to the rvr servers.
Really who like fighting a mob for 10 mins, being down to 1/2 life and someone attacking you. It's grand if you can beat him, but when the mob kills you afterwards? Opvp is just flawed due to the type of player that inhabits these games. Low self esteem and generally being all around bastardish.
If you took the best Korean Tera PvP player and gave him a level 25 so have most abilities and put him against the worst USA players, I'm sure he could take down level 40s to 50s en mass and maybe level 60s. It would depend on the class because things don't get balanced till later and matchups are a factor but the fact that most damage can be avoided.
Because of the outlaw system, there isn't anywhere near as much ganking going on as seen in other MMOs. It happens but then those players need to go hide in another channel for a long time to do any PvE. Scalling of player power is the #1 thing driving close to 100% of MMO players, it is such a driving force call of duty MW 1 and other genres copied it.
No scaling would ruin PvE. as the hardest encounters could be done at the start of the game, so difficulty level has to be flat. Otherwise way overkill at start and up to way over tuned at end but why not skip the start if it gets you to the end faster? And MMOs end when your toon is maxed.
Aside from the outlaws, most people will pick opponents within 4 levels and because you can dodge, block, evade, run away (kite),stun, and other things. The gear and levels shouldn't be the deciding factor of the fight as it is winable by skill. Even if levels were flat and gear was flat then 2v1 would be an uphill battle or class.
Scaling is worse than in the vid due to gear level upgrades but may be my class but I'm far more worried about a 2V1 with opponents 4 levels lower than a 1 vs 1 with opponents 4 levels higher. Is a pretty fun game so far and since the PvP stuff doesn't go in till later, why rush to endgame? Most of those players leave anyway about the same time I do, within 2 weeks to 2 months.
Isn't a community like that going to have an effect on player retention?
Bingo!
Thats exactly what cheap assed gankers do not understand... they are killing their own game with the way they play by looking for the most carebear way of scoring the most easy kills. They then complain, ofc, about their server being dead and rage at the Provider as if it was their fault.
The ones that DO get it don't give a crap and are happy to kill the game for the lolz, before they move to the next. They are like locusts.
Western PvP communities are cesspits tbh, especially in shiny new games, and double especially in ones that they may well be playing while they wait for the 'real deal'.
I like a LOT about TERA, but I won't play MMORPG PvP that uses this kind of system anymore.
On the other hand I wonder why people have their heads so far up their ass.
IT's called PvE servers. If you don't like PvP to find you when you don't want, than roll the freaking PvE server. That's why PvE servers are there. And guess what, you can still PvP on a PvE server except that you're safe while leveling. And if you quit because of getting ganked while leveling than it's YOUR OWN fault to pick a wrong PvP ruleset server.
Isn't a community like that going to have an effect on player retention?
Bingo!
Thats exactly what cheap assed gankers do not understand... they are killing their own game with the way they play by looking for the most carebear way of scoring the most easy kills. They then complain, ofc, about their server being dead and rage at the Provider as if it was their fault.
The ones that DO get it don't give a crap and are happy to kill the game for the lolz, before they move to the next. They are like locusts.
Western PvP communities are cesspits tbh, especially in shiny new games, and double especially in ones that they may well be playing while they wait for the 'real deal'.
I like a LOT about TERA, but I won't play MMORPG PvP that uses this kind of system anymore.
You said it right! This video says it best I think. Video
I am totally fine with PvP, but when groups go around looking and griefing single targets, who are simply trying to level, it is just dishonorable.
edit: link broke
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Even in WoW, skill could bridge that gap of gear in many cases. My newly capped Paladin in a good deal of PvE gear and mostly none-high end stuff was taking on many others who were in the damned arena gear. That was in a game that was far more target based than this.
I won't say I have experience with end game pvp, but I will put my thoughts down.
I think it goes like this. Level>Skill>Gear in Tera. In Tera aiming matters, in Tera position matters, in Tera you have to pay attention to many things that can turn that tide, putting skill over gear. The problem here is that two people with the same skill but different gear.... well better gear wins. But, that's one of the incentives to play, and I'm ok with that.
On level, from what I've been able to gather thus far, leveling is freakin' fast, and if you're being camped you can just switch channels and get away right fast. What's the problem? It's been a week and people are at cap, even those who aren't rushing to cap are fairly close, those a pvp server just have more incentive to do so, so I can't see the issue with level. It's an MMO, every MMORPG in the last 7 freakin' years had had the level>all else thing for PvP.
Guys I am sure that we all know what game this guy likes, lets just ignore the trolls shall we? I mean How can MMORPG games Have Levels? thats unthinkable!!!!!!, A game where you progress and you are stronger than new player? UNREAL!!!!! I can't believe that I even answered him seriously. What has happend to this site's community? at least we were able to reason with them before, but now....
Lewl affected much.
Btw, you are what is wrong with the community, jackass.
I agree. The people complaining about the community are the worst one's themselves. For example, this guy who thinks his way of reasoning is the absolute truth. Gosh forbid that you have an MMORPG where gear and level does not affect that much in PvP. I mean it hasn't done before right? (it has)
You said this before, that there were many MMORPG's where gear and levels don't affect PVP much, besides Planetside and EVE I'm wondering which ones those were. (UO, AC perhaps?)
Starting with Lineage 1 and continuing with DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, AOC, AION, WOW, EQ1, EQ2, Rift, COX, Fallen Earth, Runes of Magic, SWTOR, Vanguard are just a few of the titles I've played where levels>gear>skill.
In fact, you could say with a few rare exceptions, this is the trademark design of most major theme park MMORPG games, which is why many people hate it, they are always looking for fairness in their PVP.
TERA just continues this long standing design tradition, which oddly enough seems to be a surprise to many people in this thread, quite surprising to me that so many expected something more along the lines of GW1/2 which IMO are the anomolies in the genre, and not the rule.
I dont think it should be this way just because other ThemeParks have done it this way. Keep in mind that TERA is marketing itself as having skill-based combat, which is an anamoly in itsef. To do that and then have levels and gear matter much more is pretty stupid imo.
I do wonder, does the company call TERA skill based, or just the players?
Last I saw, they call it action based.
Yeah exactly this, skill is pretty relative, its action based combat, skill based, well it depends on the skill you are talking about, skill to press buttons quickly? Skill to assess situations and their outcomes? Skill to analyze the range of active skills you have and pick the correct one at the correct time? Skill to lead others?
People just use skill so looseley these days it has become diluted into this all encompassing term that no one really defines anymore.
Sadly there is no objective discussion in these forums anymore, I always see the same "Knights of Justice" arguing against the same ambiguous and subjective topics that really have no way of being resolved without exaustive scientific research. Which accomplishes nothing, but it has been the norm in these forums for a while, they will move on to GW2 in a bit.
I dont think it should be this way just because other ThemeParks have done it this way. Keep in mind that TERA is marketing itself as having skill-based combat, which is an anamoly in itsef. To do that and then have levels and gear matter much more is pretty stupid imo.
Everybody say they have "skill based combat" except freerealms and second life...
I said it many times before, the gap between vets and noobs need to shrink. I don´t care if you progress with levels, gear or character skills but that gap is what makes PvP so bad in MMOs.
I do wonder, does the company call TERA skill based, or just the players?
Last I saw, they call it action based.
From the latest MMORPG.COM interview:
Brian Knox: I think TERA’s skill-based system is a natural fit for PvP players, and I want to develop a system that encourages and rewards PvP participants.
So that is not entirely true... they are pushing the skill-based part quite a bit.
I dont think it should be this way just because other ThemeParks have done it this way. Keep in mind that TERA is marketing itself as having skill-based combat, which is an anamoly in itsef. To do that and then have levels and gear matter much more is pretty stupid imo.
Everybody say they have "skill based combat" except freerealms and second life...
I said it many times before, the gap between vets and noobs need to shrink. I don´t care if you progress with levels, gear or character skills but that gap is what makes PvP so bad in MMOs.
Note that I said "shrink", nor "remove".
There is a difference between mentioning it and having it as their main selling point. Because lets face it, that is how TERA is trying to stand out from the crowd.
But your second paragraph I agree with. PvP gap between vets and noobs need to shrink, in regards to levels and gear, otherwise the noobs will just get discouraged and not engage in it. This whole level bonus/penalty is for PvE anyway, it has no place in PvP.
I do wonder, does the company call TERA skill based, or just the players?
Last I saw, they call it action based.
From the latest MMORPG.COM interview:
Brian Knox: I think TERA’s skill-based system is a natural fit for PvP players, and I want to develop a system that encourages and rewards PvP participants.
So that is not entirely true... they are pushing the skill-based part quite a bit.
In this game skill does play more of a factor but gear and level helps greatly if not clinches a win.
Still, it's not that far to cap and getting good gear isn't really that hard.
Really.
I have basically had gold armor and weapons for a good part of my latter leveling. Always bought them from the AH. And two quests gave gold gear.
But it's an open ffa pvp "fest" so it is what it is. If people liked the more open pvp of lineage 2 or Aion abyss then they might like this game. If not then the pvp servers of this game aren't for them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Starting with Lineage 1 and continuing with DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, AOC, AION, WOW, EQ1, EQ2, Rift, COX, Fallen Earth, Runes of Magic, SWTOR, Vanguard are just a few of the titles I've played where levels>gear>skill.
In fact, you could say with a few rare exceptions, this is the trademark design of most major theme park MMORPG games, which is why many people hate it, they are always looking for fairness in their PVP.
TERA just continues this long standing design tradition, which oddly enough seems to be a surprise to many people in this thread, quite surprising to me that so many expected something more along the lines of GW1/2 which IMO are the anomolies in the genre, and not the rule.
Daoc - Levels played a part but within 2-3 levels not so much. Gear not at all. Our trio would regularly beat groups of 5-8 players. Since gear wasn't grind dependent and stats/resistances reached a cap, most people had similar gear levels. Still one of the only games i've played where you always had to incorpate crafted gear into your end template.
The other titles, (shadowbane was just fun, but crazy ganking), all had terrible pvp/opvp. Which is why they're never mentioned when discussing great pvp games. Even in daoc the opvp servers failed because people are basically cunts and would rather attack when they have the upper hand as appose to being battle ready for a fight. NO one likes playing on those odds so people stuck to the rvr servers.
Really who like fighting a mob for 10 mins, being down to 1/2 life and someone attacking you. It's grand if you can beat him, but when the mob kills you afterwards? Opvp is just flawed due to the type of player that inhabits these games. Low self esteem and generally being all around bastardish.
I'll agree with you on the levels, in fact a zerg of 20 lower level players (like level 25-40) could take a single level 50 down and on the FFA server Mordred my guild Shadowclan did so regularly. Not sure that's really possible in most other titles like TERA.
Gear I disagree with, as you noted, in the day crafted gear was especially important, with 100% quality being highly sought after and costly. Also we all used to use spreadsheets to tweak our gear templates (esp at level 50) to ensure maximum damage/defense.
While it was true that many people had similar gear at top end, then you had to deal with the realm rank imbalances, and a Realm Rank 5 was actually considered to be a level "51" character by most folks due to the advantages it had over anyone of lesser ranks.
Then came TOA, and it added new skills (and gear) that were wildly overpowered at the top end, I recall one high level skill that let a healer tie their HP's to a tank in their group, so that you had to kill the tank first before you could damage the healer. These new factors required lots of PVE activity to obtain and largely have been attributed to the general decline of the game's population at the time.
Oh yes, another DAOC triva point regarding mob fights, (on Mordred at least) if you were engaged with a mob and another player attacked you the game reset your health to 100% and removed the aggro of the mob from you. (unless of course, the first blow managed to one shot you, which my Hunter could do with a lucky crit on someone of low enough health) Haven't seen any other game do this since then, but it was a brilliant idea.
BTW, many people consider Shadowbane to be one of the great PVP games, despite all its flaws. Never mistake your desire for fair and balanced PVP to be the only way people like to fight, your view is just the most popular.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh yes, another DAOC triva point regarding mob fights, (on Mordred at least) if you were engaged with a mob and another player attacked you the game reset your health to 100% and removed the aggro of the mob from you.
That's brilliant. This should be standard.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh yes, another DAOC triva point regarding mob fights, (on Mordred at least) if you were engaged with a mob and another player attacked you the game reset your health to 100% and removed the aggro of the mob from you.
That's brilliant. This should be standard.
WoW rogue tactics while in pve and you are ganked, use vanish, mob switches target to ganker. Seems they could do something like this with Tera and griefing!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Even back in vanilla WOW, level and gear difference wasn't as impactful as people today make out to be.
Remember that naked rogue winning duel after duel?
Also, it was not uncommon that a good player regularly beat mediocre players three levels above him. The casters had a bit of a harder time because of resists, but it was still perfectly doable.
A two level difference amounting to this wide a gap in power is... well, unprecedentedly unfortunate for the under-leveled, to say the least.
Even back in vanilla WOW, level and gear difference wasn't as impactful as people today make out to be.
Remember that naked rogue winning duel after duel?
Also, it was not uncommon that a good player regularly beat mediocre players three levels above him. The casters had a bit of a harder time because of resists, but it was still perfectly doable.
A two level difference amounting to this wide a gap in power is... well, unprecedentedly unfortunate for the under-leveled, to say the least.
And that's exactly as it is with Tera and due to lack of TAB target system and requirement to aim, besides having a "standard" set of skills to use while avoiding the attacks. People with very good mothorical skills and awareness will shine in this game even more. That is also where the "skill-based" statements come from I believe.
I have killed plenty of higher-leveled characters with better gear than me. Yeah, there is a significant handicap to the weaker character and in my opinion this needs to be tweaked, but by no means does this mean a disadvantaged fight can't be won. You just have a lot less room for error than the other guy.
Barring Asheron's Call, Planetside, and a few others, this is still one of the most skill-based PvP MMOs on the market, hands down.
SIDE NOTE because this really annoys me...
The tales of ganking are extremely overstated, by the way. I am now level 45 on a pvp server (playing casually for a couple hours per night) and have been ganked probably 5 times, actually dieing maybe 3 of those times. People tend to get ganked one time while they are zoned out, not paying attention (FYI if you are alert, hardly anyone can gank you - there are too many escape mechanics in the game and it's hard to catch a mounted character), and rage about it like they are totally incapable of progressing. There are channels in every low-to-mid level area. Stay out of channel 1.
And just for good measure: PvE servers -> that way.
PvP in this game boils down to higher level=instant win. you pretty much have no chance of winning no matter how skilled you are as long as the player fighting you has even just a couple of levels higher than you (even 1 puts you at a severe disadvantage).
what the game does is that it artificially greatly increases the amount of dmg you do against lower players and greatly decreases the amount of dmg you take against lower level players. Players 3 lvls higher will do roughly 20% more damage while having a SIGNIFICANTLY higher crit rate. Lower level players have a SIGNFICANTLY lower crit rate against you. what makes matters worse is that several of the classes are "late bloomers" meaning your character sucks at pvp until late to end game. Now you can see why noob ganking especially horrific in this game. If you are lower level you cant really do anything except sit there and die.
I wonder how many people here who claim its Level>Gear>Skill even pvp extensively here? Because i been PvPing since CBT2 till now and i'm lvl 60, and gear has not once yet matter in any of my PvP fights. during CBT I was in full blue +0 all the time and i had no problem fight guildies with +0-6 golds of my level at all. I won quiet a few duels against them as well. Also if you do your quest you get gold set just from doing quests, the golds in dungeons have same base stats (some time even lower) but only difference is you can enchant them.
So from some one who PvPed a lot it has been Level>Skill>Gear, and in massive pvp with 15-20+ its strategy>numbers and as for 5v5/10v10 its group comp>Skill/teamwork>gear (assuming even lvl since 5v5/10v10 are normally fair fights)
Comments
What you mean is GW2 is a MMORPG that doesn't follow the conventions established previous MMORPGs (but it still is Massively Multiplayer, is Online, etc.).
My view on what skill-based Open World PvP should be is similar to what GW2 has done with their PvE:
- No levels/level scaling per zone
- Influence of gear should be minimal
But yeah, few people want skill-based PvP really (you've got no excuse when you lose and having to face it is hard: you're bad, it's not your gear or level) and people like to be OP (wow I kill all these guys in 1 hit look!).
You said this before, that there were many MMORPG's where gear and levels don't affect PVP much, besides Planetside and EVE I'm wondering which ones those were. (UO, AC perhaps?)
Starting with Lineage 1 and continuing with DAOC, Shadowbane, Lineage 2, AOC, AION, WOW, EQ1, EQ2, Rift, COX, Fallen Earth, Runes of Magic, SWTOR, Vanguard are just a few of the titles I've played where levels>gear>skill.
In fact, you could say with a few rare exceptions, this is the trademark design of most major theme park MMORPG games, which is why many people hate it, they are always looking for fairness in their PVP.
TERA just continues this long standing design tradition, which oddly enough seems to be a surprise to many people in this thread, quite surprising to me that so many expected something more along the lines of GW1/2 which IMO are the anomolies in the genre, and not the rule.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't want to be evil.
But why did you ever think Tera was "Skill-based" in the way you imagine?
I'm not that far up in levels yet, but till now I didn't really need any "skill" in this game in pve and pvp, and for me this was pretty clear since the first minutes I played it. It was lvl and gears from the beginning.
Level progression and pvp in my opinion, doesn't really fit together. Thats why pvp in many mmorpgs it's almost always not satisfying. As long as a level 15 characters need to beat pve monsters who have 4-10 times the health etc than a lvl 2 monster, your dream just isn't possible. In reality even someone who has no idea about weapons, still has a chance to kill someone with it.
Perhaps there needs to be a seperate progression for pvp and pve in the same game. Or if the developers are a little lazy, they can just allow to start at max lvl if you like to solely pvp.
But I don't know where Tera will be going in that matter.
Or you play a game where there is no pve, except critters and relatively easy animals which roam the world. So you can as a developer focus only on the pvp aspekts of progressing.
----------------------------------------
Evil UO has doomed my poor soul and now I'm wandering restlessly through all MMORPG's, desperately searching for a place to rest in peace.....
PvP FFA ruleset, this was expected! I have no problems with this, though I've yet to be ganked over and over again. Just go level to max and enjoy pvp, dont forget to switch channel if you're having problems!
Daoc - Levels played a part but within 2-3 levels not so much. Gear not at all. Our trio would regularly beat groups of 5-8 players. Since gear wasn't grind dependent and stats/resistances reached a cap, most people had similar gear levels. Still one of the only games i've played where you always had to incorpate crafted gear into your end template.
The other titles, (shadowbane was just fun, but crazy ganking), all had terrible pvp/opvp. Which is why they're never mentioned when discussing great pvp games. Even in daoc the opvp servers failed because people are basically cunts and would rather attack when they have the upper hand as appose to being battle ready for a fight. NO one likes playing on those odds so people stuck to the rvr servers.
Really who like fighting a mob for 10 mins, being down to 1/2 life and someone attacking you. It's grand if you can beat him, but when the mob kills you afterwards? Opvp is just flawed due to the type of player that inhabits these games. Low self esteem and generally being all around bastardish.
If you took the best Korean Tera PvP player and gave him a level 25 so have most abilities and put him against the worst USA players, I'm sure he could take down level 40s to 50s en mass and maybe level 60s. It would depend on the class because things don't get balanced till later and matchups are a factor but the fact that most damage can be avoided.
Because of the outlaw system, there isn't anywhere near as much ganking going on as seen in other MMOs. It happens but then those players need to go hide in another channel for a long time to do any PvE. Scalling of player power is the #1 thing driving close to 100% of MMO players, it is such a driving force call of duty MW 1 and other genres copied it.
No scaling would ruin PvE. as the hardest encounters could be done at the start of the game, so difficulty level has to be flat. Otherwise way overkill at start and up to way over tuned at end but why not skip the start if it gets you to the end faster? And MMOs end when your toon is maxed.
Aside from the outlaws, most people will pick opponents within 4 levels and because you can dodge, block, evade, run away (kite),stun, and other things. The gear and levels shouldn't be the deciding factor of the fight as it is winable by skill. Even if levels were flat and gear was flat then 2v1 would be an uphill battle or class.
Scaling is worse than in the vid due to gear level upgrades but may be my class but I'm far more worried about a 2V1 with opponents 4 levels lower than a 1 vs 1 with opponents 4 levels higher. Is a pretty fun game so far and since the PvP stuff doesn't go in till later, why rush to endgame? Most of those players leave anyway about the same time I do, within 2 weeks to 2 months.
On the other hand I wonder why people have their heads so far up their ass.
IT's called PvE servers. If you don't like PvP to find you when you don't want, than roll the freaking PvE server. That's why PvE servers are there. And guess what, you can still PvP on a PvE server except that you're safe while leveling. And if you quit because of getting ganked while leveling than it's YOUR OWN fault to pick a wrong PvP ruleset server.
Opening your eyes now and than is good.
You said it right! This video says it best I think. Video
I am totally fine with PvP, but when groups go around looking and griefing single targets, who are simply trying to level, it is just dishonorable.
edit: link broke
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Even in WoW, skill could bridge that gap of gear in many cases. My newly capped Paladin in a good deal of PvE gear and mostly none-high end stuff was taking on many others who were in the damned arena gear. That was in a game that was far more target based than this.
I won't say I have experience with end game pvp, but I will put my thoughts down.
I think it goes like this. Level>Skill>Gear in Tera. In Tera aiming matters, in Tera position matters, in Tera you have to pay attention to many things that can turn that tide, putting skill over gear. The problem here is that two people with the same skill but different gear.... well better gear wins. But, that's one of the incentives to play, and I'm ok with that.
On level, from what I've been able to gather thus far, leveling is freakin' fast, and if you're being camped you can just switch channels and get away right fast. What's the problem? It's been a week and people are at cap, even those who aren't rushing to cap are fairly close, those a pvp server just have more incentive to do so, so I can't see the issue with level. It's an MMO, every MMORPG in the last 7 freakin' years had had the level>all else thing for PvP.
I dont think it should be this way just because other ThemeParks have done it this way. Keep in mind that TERA is marketing itself as having skill-based combat, which is an anamoly in itsef. To do that and then have levels and gear matter much more is pretty stupid imo.
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I do wonder, does the company call TERA skill based, or just the players?
Last I saw, they call it action based.
Yeah exactly this, skill is pretty relative, its action based combat, skill based, well it depends on the skill you are talking about, skill to press buttons quickly? Skill to assess situations and their outcomes? Skill to analyze the range of active skills you have and pick the correct one at the correct time? Skill to lead others?
People just use skill so looseley these days it has become diluted into this all encompassing term that no one really defines anymore.
Sadly there is no objective discussion in these forums anymore, I always see the same "Knights of Justice" arguing against the same ambiguous and subjective topics that really have no way of being resolved without exaustive scientific research. Which accomplishes nothing, but it has been the norm in these forums for a while, they will move on to GW2 in a bit.
Everybody say they have "skill based combat" except freerealms and second life...
I said it many times before, the gap between vets and noobs need to shrink. I don´t care if you progress with levels, gear or character skills but that gap is what makes PvP so bad in MMOs.
Note that I said "shrink", nor "remove".
From the latest MMORPG.COM interview:
Brian Knox: I think TERA’s skill-based system is a natural fit for PvP players, and I want to develop a system that encourages and rewards PvP participants.
So that is not entirely true... they are pushing the skill-based part quite a bit.
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There is a difference between mentioning it and having it as their main selling point. Because lets face it, that is how TERA is trying to stand out from the crowd.
But your second paragraph I agree with. PvP gap between vets and noobs need to shrink, in regards to levels and gear, otherwise the noobs will just get discouraged and not engage in it. This whole level bonus/penalty is for PvE anyway, it has no place in PvP.
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In this game skill does play more of a factor but gear and level helps greatly if not clinches a win.
Still, it's not that far to cap and getting good gear isn't really that hard.
Really.
I have basically had gold armor and weapons for a good part of my latter leveling. Always bought them from the AH. And two quests gave gold gear.
But it's an open ffa pvp "fest" so it is what it is. If people liked the more open pvp of lineage 2 or Aion abyss then they might like this game. If not then the pvp servers of this game aren't for them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'll agree with you on the levels, in fact a zerg of 20 lower level players (like level 25-40) could take a single level 50 down and on the FFA server Mordred my guild Shadowclan did so regularly. Not sure that's really possible in most other titles like TERA.
Gear I disagree with, as you noted, in the day crafted gear was especially important, with 100% quality being highly sought after and costly. Also we all used to use spreadsheets to tweak our gear templates (esp at level 50) to ensure maximum damage/defense.
While it was true that many people had similar gear at top end, then you had to deal with the realm rank imbalances, and a Realm Rank 5 was actually considered to be a level "51" character by most folks due to the advantages it had over anyone of lesser ranks.
Then came TOA, and it added new skills (and gear) that were wildly overpowered at the top end, I recall one high level skill that let a healer tie their HP's to a tank in their group, so that you had to kill the tank first before you could damage the healer. These new factors required lots of PVE activity to obtain and largely have been attributed to the general decline of the game's population at the time.
Oh yes, another DAOC triva point regarding mob fights, (on Mordred at least) if you were engaged with a mob and another player attacked you the game reset your health to 100% and removed the aggro of the mob from you. (unless of course, the first blow managed to one shot you, which my Hunter could do with a lucky crit on someone of low enough health) Haven't seen any other game do this since then, but it was a brilliant idea.
BTW, many people consider Shadowbane to be one of the great PVP games, despite all its flaws. Never mistake your desire for fair and balanced PVP to be the only way people like to fight, your view is just the most popular.
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That's brilliant. This should be standard.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW rogue tactics while in pve and you are ganked, use vanish, mob switches target to ganker. Seems they could do something like this with Tera and griefing!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
just another reason not to buy this game.
Even back in vanilla WOW, level and gear difference wasn't as impactful as people today make out to be.
Remember that naked rogue winning duel after duel?
Also, it was not uncommon that a good player regularly beat mediocre players three levels above him. The casters had a bit of a harder time because of resists, but it was still perfectly doable.
A two level difference amounting to this wide a gap in power is... well, unprecedentedly unfortunate for the under-leveled, to say the least.
And that's exactly as it is with Tera and due to lack of TAB target system and requirement to aim, besides having a "standard" set of skills to use while avoiding the attacks. People with very good mothorical skills and awareness will shine in this game even more. That is also where the "skill-based" statements come from I believe.
I have killed plenty of higher-leveled characters with better gear than me. Yeah, there is a significant handicap to the weaker character and in my opinion this needs to be tweaked, but by no means does this mean a disadvantaged fight can't be won. You just have a lot less room for error than the other guy.
Barring Asheron's Call, Planetside, and a few others, this is still one of the most skill-based PvP MMOs on the market, hands down.
SIDE NOTE because this really annoys me...
The tales of ganking are extremely overstated, by the way. I am now level 45 on a pvp server (playing casually for a couple hours per night) and have been ganked probably 5 times, actually dieing maybe 3 of those times. People tend to get ganked one time while they are zoned out, not paying attention (FYI if you are alert, hardly anyone can gank you - there are too many escape mechanics in the game and it's hard to catch a mounted character), and rage about it like they are totally incapable of progressing. There are channels in every low-to-mid level area. Stay out of channel 1.
And just for good measure: PvE servers -> that way.
After read and watch the video i can only say that this game is no way a player skill game ! higher lvl win.
I wonder how many people here who claim its Level>Gear>Skill even pvp extensively here? Because i been PvPing since CBT2 till now and i'm lvl 60, and gear has not once yet matter in any of my PvP fights. during CBT I was in full blue +0 all the time and i had no problem fight guildies with +0-6 golds of my level at all. I won quiet a few duels against them as well. Also if you do your quest you get gold set just from doing quests, the golds in dungeons have same base stats (some time even lower) but only difference is you can enchant them.
So from some one who PvPed a lot it has been Level>Skill>Gear, and in massive pvp with 15-20+ its strategy>numbers and as for 5v5/10v10 its group comp>Skill/teamwork>gear (assuming even lvl since 5v5/10v10 are normally fair fights)