Originally posted by Bardus By EA's own definition, doesn't it need to maintain 1 million subs to be successful? They're the ones that said it.
Being 2nd largest MMO is highly debatable ATM. None of us know what the real numbers are past the spin.
Depends on perception of successful.
Speaking strictly in terms of expenses/income, they need about 300k subs to break even and 500k to have a profit.
Last official numbers were talking about 1.3M active subs with majority of paying customers. If I go with 50% for paying subs as the minimum to make the statement true, it is still 2nd largest MMO on western market.
Pretty sure they said it was 500k to break even and 1 million to turn over a "nothing to write home about" profit.
That is how I and everyone else read it as well.
I do not see them having more than 100K subs soon.
If bioware/LA had a clue about why people love star wars games, they would understand that it isn't about the themepark, really. People like to live in that world. they like to explore, and craft stuff, and have a customizable ship, and all the little things bioware neglected. People like pvp with meaning, not just shallow reasons. I want a character in a star wars gameworld that I can care about. I want to jump into my little ship and just go somewhere.. maybe see something on a distant planet that might get my character killed(and BTW, I'm not advocating permadeath or anything) or might make him/her a billion credits. I want chance, I want surprise, I want a game that engages my mind, yet is not tedious. I know that's hard. BUT NOT WHEN YOU HAVE 300 MILLION DOLLARS TO DO IT WITH.
Amen. They modeled their game around one that makes players not give a damn about their characters and they wonder why no one cares about the Legacy system? It's painfully obvious that BW doesn't understand what SW fans like in their MMO's as much so as Lucas no longer understands what made his original trilogy so beloved.
Originally posted by superniceguy There should not be this amount of cancellations after only 1 month.
People leave and go in every game, SWTOR included. It only seems massive and lurid because the game was just launched and all is concentrated into very short time period.
If you got 2M incomers and 700k leavers distributed evenly through 1 year period, you would get a curve of steady growth.
4. Hero Engine. An AAA game doesn't buy a game engine that is only 20% developed and fill in the blanks. Would have been far better off developing their own engine.
This one really boggles the mind. We all heard the stories about the insane budget in the hundred's of millions. Buying an AAA+ engine like CryEngine 3 or Uneral Engine 3 would cost them only about 1 million. Both would be amazing for Star Wars. Or heck, even get a license from the guy doing the Infinity project, with an entire galaxy of planets, and seamless space-surface transitions.
But no, let's got Hero engine. Seriously, why not Ogre3D or Irrlicht if EA is so cheap?
There should not be this amount of cancellations after only 1 month.
People leave and go in every game, SWTOR included. It only seems massive and lurid because the game was just launched and all is concentrated into very short time period.
If you got 2M incomers and 700k leavers distributed evenly through 1 year period, you would get a curve of steady growth.
It only needs time to settle down.
There has been 700K leavers so far, but as you say it has not settled down yet, and people are still leaving. The fact it has been losing subs within a month and not a year like other games, makes it a failure, as at the rate it is declining, in 1 years time it will be dead.
None of this should be happening though, other games were not released on such a huge budget, and SWTOR was expected to last 10 years. SWTOR was released at a good time, as WOW was starting to wane and people getting bored of it, and had the potential to steal people away from it.
SWG grew over the year, as its peak on Xfire was in Aug 2004, and it launched June 2003.
The time when SWTOR settles down, will be when it is shut down!
Originally posted by superniceguy The fact it has been losing subs within a month and not a year like other games
It could not lose subs within a year because it was was launched 5 month ago, this fact skews the curve but yet alone means nothing until the numbers settle down and trend is established.
If we assume that average MMO has 25% retention rate, it means you will lose 75% initial sale subscriptions.
Nothing to wonder and freak about.
But w/e, no point talking sense into deafened ears...
There should not be this amount of cancellations after only 1 month.
People leave and go in every game, SWTOR included. It only seems massive and lurid because the game was just launched and all is concentrated into very short time period.
If you got 2M incomers and 700k leavers distributed evenly through 1 year period, you would get a curve of steady growth.
It only needs time to settle down.
Fair enough but it hasn't been a year. It's at 5 months and the only steady thing has been decline.
How can they settle it down? Can they by making promises (ranked warzones) and then announcing they will not be included just hours before they are due to go live, and by already having an alterative means of grinding the new gear they obviously knew well before hand the warzones will not be in the patch? Can they by not fixing bugs and introducing more with each patch? Can they by promising to add patches each and every month? They said that after 1.2 and it's been a month since then, where's this month's patch? Can they by promising 100 vs 100 PVP but the system can't hardly handle 8 vs 8? Can they by showing promo vids with hi rez textures and then pulling the option out before it launches? Can they by actually laying blame on customers for the declining numbers? Can they by making the most expensive game in history and then stating it is not even in their top 5 on priority? Can they by launching the game with the most basic features omitted so they could cash in on the holidays and not compete with other releases? Did they think we wouldn't notice?
Can they settle it down when they themselves keep making it harder on themselves?
The fact it has been losing subs within a month and not a year like other games
It could not lose subs within a year because it was was launched 5 month ago, this fact skews the curve but yet alone means nothing until the numbers settle down and trend is established.
If we assume that average MMO has 25% retention rate, it means you will lose 75% initial sale subscriptions.
Nothing to wonder and freak about.
But w/e, no point talking sense into deafened ears...
What I am saying is that if it takes an average MMO to lose subs over a year and have 25% retention, and it happens over a year, then after a year of SWTOR come Dec 2012, it will have a 10% or less retention rate.
The curve will not be skewed, the end result will just be less, as the decline has not stopped yet. With no adequate content at 50, I do not see the bleeding stopping at all.
SWTOR is like a single player game with multiplayer options, which do not have monthly sub fees, than a fully blown MMO that is worth the constant sub fees
I loved this game. PLayed the hell out of it. Two max level toons, one for each faction. Loved my bounty hunter. The lvling was fun and got me hooked. Once I hit max, I tried Illum. Failure number 1. So I said to myself ok, lets try running dungeons. Realized theres no LFD tool. Had to park my toon at the fleet for hours on time just to find grps. And I was on a populated server. Failure number 2. So I tried the daily quests. Realized I'm burnt out on daily quests. Cant bring myself to do them. Failure number 3.
Its a shame. Even though Illum was a collosal disaster, if they had a LFD tool, I would have stayed. Without that tool, a person needs to be in the fleet on general chat. Not fun sitting around. I'm currently not playing but I will prob resub when that tool is implemented, if ever.
Fanboys need to step back and ask WHY they are blindly defending the game.
I think you need to take a step back and calm down.
The issue here is that so many people are stuck in this idea that "if the game doesn't hold all its initial players then its bad" when the real reason is that most people trying these games are just not the right people for these games.
SWToR is a fine game. It has its issues but it's very enjoyable. They messed up on pvp but then again they should never have promised pvp and open world pvp at that.
The game is fine and not for everyone. That's a shame given the IP but your thinking it's a mess doesn't mean it's a mess. It means it's not for you and those who think like you.
So "good" if they can be profitable on a smaller amount of players and "good" if those players enjoy the game.
time for everyone else to move on.
No, you are the one that needs to step back and stop thinking that just because you dont have the issue that it doesnt mean that everyone must think the same or not say anything about it.
We are talking about WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING...not why YOU are staying.
And THAT...is the issue. Why are people leaving. If anything, Bioware should not care about what YOU say...they already have things in the game for YOU...its the people that are leaving they need to be concerned about because that is money being lost...money that should NOT be lost.
Doing things your way is a quick way to make sure the game dies faster than it should...go from a niche to an even smaller niche as people leave because too many people quit the game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
"Don't treat your customers like they're morons. Seriously, these clowns acted as if we were so stupid that we couldn't see behind all their shallow, production-values driven gameplay to the shabby, limited game behind the lightsabers and aninmated voice-acting."
Some consumers knew this before they gave EA/bioware their $$$. Some had to fork over their hard earned cash to find out.
I think this has more to do with:
EA: is is a company with a capital C. IT doesn't matter that they peddle games or livestock or textiles. They aer essentially set up to make a profit and that's pretty much it.
Bioware: Bioware has become a bit arrogant. Given their past successes they have forgotten that not everyone is going to look kindly on everything they do "just because they do it".
Agreed.
Many of their playerbase won't blindly purchase any new game from them. They're going to wait for reviews and I'll do it too.
Yeah alot of people said that about Funcom after AoC also, and yet here we are with TSW and gamers are dropping 200 bucks for lifetime purchases on a game many of them have never played for a second.......Also if so many gamers are so smart why did that drop the 60 bucks on SWTOR in the first place??....Some of us read the reviews and knew it was a single player crapfest, and we didnt give them any money.
SWTOR is losing subs.. that is a Fact. If they keep losing subs things wont be looking good when the year is out. Things do not help when EA spokes people say the game is no longer in the top 5 on the priority list.
And as I have said before I personaly laughed me ass off when I saw them march in on E3 all those years ago and said they had invented the wheel.. And the wheels name was story..
My first thought was these jokers dont know the first thing about what makes a good MMO...
The game is a FAIL because the wrong people run the Industry, pure and simple.
The game is a FAIL because the wrong people run the Industry, pure and simple.
You mean the wrong people who make hefty money in the industry they run so badly?
I'm not sure they are making that much money annymore. There are lots of layoffs these days. And I also think they could be making alot more if they dident listen to Suits and economist that dont know the first thing about games.
Also the people making lots of money these days do it on Mobil phone games etc... and Indy projects like Minecraft.. The big studios like EA havent had a smash hit in years. They survive because of past achivments and buying indy companies like BIOWARE, DICE and MYTHIC and then slowly destorying them..
Studios that were gamer driven get bought up and then stop producing with the love and care they once did.. It has happend more times then I can count. And EA logo is the company that is mostly linked with this kind of decline.
The EA logo stoped standing for Quality many years ago..
"Don't treat your customers like they're morons. Seriously, these clowns acted as if we were so stupid that we couldn't see behind all their shallow, production-values driven gameplay to the shabby, limited game behind the lightsabers and aninmated voice-acting."
Some consumers knew this before they gave EA/bioware their $$$. Some had to fork over their hard earned cash to find out.
I think this has more to do with:
EA: is is a company with a capital C. IT doesn't matter that they peddle games or livestock or textiles. They aer essentially set up to make a profit and that's pretty much it.
Bioware: Bioware has become a bit arrogant. Given their past successes they have forgotten that not everyone is going to look kindly on everything they do "just because they do it".
Agreed.
Many of their playerbase won't blindly purchase any new game from them. They're going to wait for reviews and I'll do it too.
Yeah alot of people said that about Funcom after AoC also, and yet here we are with TSW and gamers are dropping 200 bucks for lifetime purchases on a game many of them have never played for a second.......Also if so many gamers are so smart why did that drop the 60 bucks on SWTOR in the first place??....Some of us read the reviews and knew it was a single player crapfest, and we didnt give them any money.
I can only speak for myself. I did not buy SWTOR and I will not buy another Funcome product. Reason i dident buy SWTOR was because I bought Warhammer online. And I saw what EA money does to games.
I will never buy a game that has FUNCOM or EA logo on it. Funny thing is that TSW has both the FUNCOM logo and the EA logo on it so its DUBBLE FAIL title. Only SUCKERS would buy that game, and if they do and then complain they deserve it LOL.
The Writing is on the WALL.. EA = bad games period... Do as Dana White the president of UFC just tell them to FUCK off... I bet he bought strikeforce just to fuck with them hahah... so their MA title could not be made anymore muhahah
The game is a FAIL because the wrong people run the Industry, pure and simple.
You mean the wrong people who make hefty money in the industry they run so badly?
I'm not sure they are making that much money annymore. There are lots of layoffs these days. And I also think they could be making alot more if they dident listen to Suits and economist that dont know the first thing about games.
Also the people making lots of money these days do it on Mobil phone games etc... and Indy projects like Minecraft.. The big studios like EA havent had a smash hit in years. They survive because of past achivments and buying indy companies like BIOWARE, DICE and MYTHIC and then slowly destorying them..
Studios that were gamer driven get bought up and then stop producing with the love and care they once did.. It has happend more times then I can count. And EA logo is the company that is mostly linked with this kind of decline.
The EA logo stoped standing for Quality many years ago..
O_o They had a killer quarter.
Only reason their stock took a tumble is due to the news about SWTOR. Yeah...yeah...I know some want to still deny it but like it or not that was why their stock took the hit it did. Other than that they had a fair amount of cash on hand and revenue was really impressive overall for them. Much as people say they hate their Origins service and some of their other games they made a ton off those ventures.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
i think that the philosphy of game development in mmorpg's has been , get started, finish later. Unfortuantely, this method of "growing" games is not working.
Back in the day, in wow, people didn't ding 40 and get a mount for months after release. The dungeons for the release endgame were difficult, even before tbc there were only a handful of guilds that cleared naxx, and most mid sized guilds were still working on finishing up bwl.
As games evolved, so did gamers, as they released, people tried to perfect ways to get to the end fast. Pushing everything to the limit to rush through content. Grinding games took off, and story dropped alot.
SWTOR an idea of a story driven mmo started with story but finished lacking what most mmo'ers want. Initiative to play, resulting in rewards. Be it, crafting, housing, raiding, pvp etc.
When wow came out, it wasnt an instant 12 mil subs, it grew over time. Even if subs are declining in wow, look at how long the game continued to grow. WoW had a plan for end game and every 2 years stretched it with innovative updates and idea.
I think that a lesson learned is to start with an end game first. Work your way from what you want people to do in the longterm and then finish up at the beginning.
it is a fail overall to the masses and to EA/Bioware
Speak for yourself only as you are not entitled in any way to speak for either "masses" nor EA/BioWare.
Why people did not re-sub? For same reasons as for any other MMO, SWTOR is no difference. The only thing is the drop appears as something extraordinary but it is not - it is only due recent launch, the numbers need to settle down.
I have not spoken for either the masses nor EA/Bioware, they have spoken themselves by the mass cancellations, and EA/biowares reactions to it.
There should not be this amount of cancellations after only 1 month. If the game had a 10 year lifespan, there should be more subs not less. It is definately not going to reach 10 years at this rate.
The reason people quit is because the game is not substantial to warrant a monthly fee, ergo it is a failure, because the game is designed around that monthly fee.
You start your post by saying "I have not spoken for the masses" then immediately end it by.....yup you guessed it speaking for the masses. "the reason people quit is because".
you people kill me. and honestly with SWG for your tag I would not view your opinion with skepticism only if you spoke about the game as an active subscriber not someone who either never played because they loved SWG or someone who is no longer playing but still pining away for SWG....
its easy to criticise. how about developing your own game. threads like these are pointless. its not like a developer is gonna come in here and say `oh wow! this guys got it all figured out. we should put him in charge`.
Comments
That is how I and everyone else read it as well.
I do not see them having more than 100K subs soon.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Amen. They modeled their game around one that makes players not give a damn about their characters and they wonder why no one cares about the Legacy system? It's painfully obvious that BW doesn't understand what SW fans like in their MMO's as much so as Lucas no longer understands what made his original trilogy so beloved.
People leave and go in every game, SWTOR included. It only seems massive and lurid because the game was just launched and all is concentrated into very short time period.
If you got 2M incomers and 700k leavers distributed evenly through 1 year period, you would get a curve of steady growth.
It only needs time to settle down.
This one really boggles the mind. We all heard the stories about the insane budget in the hundred's of millions. Buying an AAA+ engine like CryEngine 3 or Uneral Engine 3 would cost them only about 1 million. Both would be amazing for Star Wars. Or heck, even get a license from the guy doing the Infinity project, with an entire galaxy of planets, and seamless space-surface transitions.
But no, let's got Hero engine. Seriously, why not Ogre3D or Irrlicht if EA is so cheap?
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
There has been 700K leavers so far, but as you say it has not settled down yet, and people are still leaving. The fact it has been losing subs within a month and not a year like other games, makes it a failure, as at the rate it is declining, in 1 years time it will be dead.
None of this should be happening though, other games were not released on such a huge budget, and SWTOR was expected to last 10 years. SWTOR was released at a good time, as WOW was starting to wane and people getting bored of it, and had the potential to steal people away from it.
SWG grew over the year, as its peak on Xfire was in Aug 2004, and it launched June 2003.
The time when SWTOR settles down, will be when it is shut down!
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
It could not lose subs within a year because it was was launched 5 month ago, this fact skews the curve but yet alone means nothing until the numbers settle down and trend is established.
If we assume that average MMO has 25% retention rate, it means you will lose 75% initial sale subscriptions.
Nothing to wonder and freak about.
But w/e, no point talking sense into deafened ears...
Fair enough but it hasn't been a year. It's at 5 months and the only steady thing has been decline.
How can they settle it down? Can they by making promises (ranked warzones) and then announcing they will not be included just hours before they are due to go live, and by already having an alterative means of grinding the new gear they obviously knew well before hand the warzones will not be in the patch? Can they by not fixing bugs and introducing more with each patch? Can they by promising to add patches each and every month? They said that after 1.2 and it's been a month since then, where's this month's patch? Can they by promising 100 vs 100 PVP but the system can't hardly handle 8 vs 8? Can they by showing promo vids with hi rez textures and then pulling the option out before it launches? Can they by actually laying blame on customers for the declining numbers? Can they by making the most expensive game in history and then stating it is not even in their top 5 on priority? Can they by launching the game with the most basic features omitted so they could cash in on the holidays and not compete with other releases? Did they think we wouldn't notice?
Can they settle it down when they themselves keep making it harder on themselves?
1. Don't focus on Legacy system and forget the rest of the game........
401k people have now left the game. Closed my account last Friday.
And this coming from a guy with Justin Beiber for an avatar. I thought that's the demographic TOR was catering to the most.
They are loosing it on all fronts /facepalm.
Exactly. It has not been a year so stop talking about anything steady - you just see spikes so far but no trend.
What I am saying is that if it takes an average MMO to lose subs over a year and have 25% retention, and it happens over a year, then after a year of SWTOR come Dec 2012, it will have a 10% or less retention rate.
The curve will not be skewed, the end result will just be less, as the decline has not stopped yet. With no adequate content at 50, I do not see the bleeding stopping at all.
SWTOR is like a single player game with multiplayer options, which do not have monthly sub fees, than a fully blown MMO that is worth the constant sub fees
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
That Bieber hairstyle is available in game btw.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I loved this game. PLayed the hell out of it. Two max level toons, one for each faction. Loved my bounty hunter. The lvling was fun and got me hooked. Once I hit max, I tried Illum. Failure number 1. So I said to myself ok, lets try running dungeons. Realized theres no LFD tool. Had to park my toon at the fleet for hours on time just to find grps. And I was on a populated server. Failure number 2. So I tried the daily quests. Realized I'm burnt out on daily quests. Cant bring myself to do them. Failure number 3.
Its a shame. Even though Illum was a collosal disaster, if they had a LFD tool, I would have stayed. Without that tool, a person needs to be in the fleet on general chat. Not fun sitting around. I'm currently not playing but I will prob resub when that tool is implemented, if ever.
No, you are the one that needs to step back and stop thinking that just because you dont have the issue that it doesnt mean that everyone must think the same or not say anything about it.
We are talking about WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING...not why YOU are staying.
And THAT...is the issue. Why are people leaving. If anything, Bioware should not care about what YOU say...they already have things in the game for YOU...its the people that are leaving they need to be concerned about because that is money being lost...money that should NOT be lost.
Doing things your way is a quick way to make sure the game dies faster than it should...go from a niche to an even smaller niche as people leave because too many people quit the game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yeah alot of people said that about Funcom after AoC also, and yet here we are with TSW and gamers are dropping 200 bucks for lifetime purchases on a game many of them have never played for a second.......Also if so many gamers are so smart why did that drop the 60 bucks on SWTOR in the first place??....Some of us read the reviews and knew it was a single player crapfest, and we didnt give them any money.
SWTOR is losing subs.. that is a Fact. If they keep losing subs things wont be looking good when the year is out. Things do not help when EA spokes people say the game is no longer in the top 5 on the priority list.
And as I have said before I personaly laughed me ass off when I saw them march in on E3 all those years ago and said they had invented the wheel.. And the wheels name was story..
My first thought was these jokers dont know the first thing about what makes a good MMO...
The game is a FAIL because the wrong people run the Industry, pure and simple.
You mean the wrong people who make hefty money in the industry they run so badly?
I'm not sure they are making that much money annymore. There are lots of layoffs these days. And I also think they could be making alot more if they dident listen to Suits and economist that dont know the first thing about games.
Also the people making lots of money these days do it on Mobil phone games etc... and Indy projects like Minecraft.. The big studios like EA havent had a smash hit in years. They survive because of past achivments and buying indy companies like BIOWARE, DICE and MYTHIC and then slowly destorying them..
Studios that were gamer driven get bought up and then stop producing with the love and care they once did.. It has happend more times then I can count. And EA logo is the company that is mostly linked with this kind of decline.
The EA logo stoped standing for Quality many years ago..
I can only speak for myself. I did not buy SWTOR and I will not buy another Funcome product. Reason i dident buy SWTOR was because I bought Warhammer online. And I saw what EA money does to games.
I will never buy a game that has FUNCOM or EA logo on it. Funny thing is that TSW has both the FUNCOM logo and the EA logo on it so its DUBBLE FAIL title. Only SUCKERS would buy that game, and if they do and then complain they deserve it LOL.
The Writing is on the WALL.. EA = bad games period... Do as Dana White the president of UFC just tell them to FUCK off... I bet he bought strikeforce just to fuck with them hahah... so their MA title could not be made anymore muhahah
O_o They had a killer quarter.
Only reason their stock took a tumble is due to the news about SWTOR. Yeah...yeah...I know some want to still deny it but like it or not that was why their stock took the hit it did. Other than that they had a fair amount of cash on hand and revenue was really impressive overall for them. Much as people say they hate their Origins service and some of their other games they made a ton off those ventures.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
i think that the philosphy of game development in mmorpg's has been , get started, finish later. Unfortuantely, this method of "growing" games is not working.
Back in the day, in wow, people didn't ding 40 and get a mount for months after release. The dungeons for the release endgame were difficult, even before tbc there were only a handful of guilds that cleared naxx, and most mid sized guilds were still working on finishing up bwl.
As games evolved, so did gamers, as they released, people tried to perfect ways to get to the end fast. Pushing everything to the limit to rush through content. Grinding games took off, and story dropped alot.
SWTOR an idea of a story driven mmo started with story but finished lacking what most mmo'ers want. Initiative to play, resulting in rewards. Be it, crafting, housing, raiding, pvp etc.
When wow came out, it wasnt an instant 12 mil subs, it grew over time. Even if subs are declining in wow, look at how long the game continued to grow. WoW had a plan for end game and every 2 years stretched it with innovative updates and idea.
I think that a lesson learned is to start with an end game first. Work your way from what you want people to do in the longterm and then finish up at the beginning.
You start your post by saying "I have not spoken for the masses" then immediately end it by.....yup you guessed it speaking for the masses. "the reason people quit is because".
you people kill me. and honestly with SWG for your tag I would not view your opinion with skepticism only if you spoke about the game as an active subscriber not someone who either never played because they loved SWG or someone who is no longer playing but still pining away for SWG....
its easy to criticise. how about developing your own game. threads like these are pointless. its not like a developer is gonna come in here and say `oh wow! this guys got it all figured out. we should put him in charge`.
I was unable to continue taking the post serious after that line.
Didn't meet expectations? maybe
You don't like it? Sure
Maybe not even any good...
But MASSIVE Failure? just too funny.
www.90and9.net
www.prophecymma.com
dont ya know? 98% of the people that hang out on this site want this game to fail hard.