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The Presumption of Safety
Uhwop
Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
So we had Burn Jita, and now an extended Hulkageddon. In Mittens latest installment of Sins of a Solar Empire, he speaks on some motivating factors of why goons sponsor such events.
Think what you will of the man, the controversy surrounding him, or that all us goons are nothing but gankers who want to "destroy EVE". He makes very valid points here, points that can be verified with a quick trip to EVE's general discussion forums.
While I undestand, and fully support, the idea that a game like EVE requires the non-pvp carebear (of which I am one of), events like these aren't intended to impact that group of people. We know what game we play, we're aware of the inherent risk of undocking even in hi-sec space. Unfortunetly, there is a rather large segment of players who don't get it.
I thought it was an intersting read. Maybe because it mirrors my own feelings about the MMO genre and an element existing within the EVE universe. Or maybe it's just becuase he's my supreme overlord and ruler.
Enjoy.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
"One of the stark lessons of Burn Jita and Hulkageddon is that the vast majority of players in EVE are completely unplugged from the game’s community; they do not read forums, check twitter, read blogs, or keep track of the gaming media. Every day during Hulkageddon miners would be ganked and comment that they’d never heard of Hulkageddon before, even though this was the fifth iteration of the contest. Despite more than a month of warning - with unprecedented alerts posted by CCP on the login screen - countless freighters blundered into Jita during our invasion and died, their pilots screaming their unjustified surprise, running to the forums for the first time to announce that (gasp) EVE wasn’t actually safe."
Comments
"One of the stark lessons of Burn Jita and Hulkageddon is that the vast majority of players in EVE are completely unplugged from the game’s community; they do not read forums, check twitter, read blogs, or keep track of the gaming media."
Spoken like a true idiot who doesn't seem to comprehand that only a MINIORITY of players ever do forums, even less give a crap about twitter.
Its been like this since 90s, and it will continue to be like this. Not everyone is consumed by video game 24/7. Some people login, do somethings for a while, log back off, the end. They may not even log back in for a couple of days. Is it really that hard for some people to get it already?
Eh...I am sorry but I did not read the linked article, I assume that it is another Mittens bullcrap I do not have a strength to read so I will react to snippet you quoted:
The point is, even if those poor souls visit the forums for the first time, their mindset and perception of EVE unlikely changes(positively) and they either quit, unsurprisingly after they discover to them new unknown phenomenon - forum population(trolls, jerks, Goons) or they will be annoyed even more.
I did not read the article, yet I can imagine how he goes thoroughly explaining how he is actually doing a favor to the game(saving it) and to the players who are either very stupid(read: disagree) or not playing the game "right".
Really not worthy the read, it is a typical Mittens hypocrisy and delusion of is egocentric disorder. He does something either very harmful, pointless or pocketing someone else effort or action and then justify it as something heroic.
The man is seriously disturbed...
He's not saying that he expects everyone to read forums, blogs, or use twitter. He's simply pointing out that in a game that thrives on player and community interaction, there is a large number of people who are completely removed from the community, and he's correct.
CCP WARNED people when they logged in that there would be a player run PvP event in Jita. People still went to the forums and complained they got blown up when they entered jita. They had no idea that it was going to happen even though they were told.
In a game like wow it makes perfect sense to remove yourself from the community because of the nature of the game. This isn't WoW though, and that's the point he's trying to express, you can't play it like it is.
How about pretend that it's not written by him and read the article. Unless you have no iterest in sandbox MMO's.
Yes, it's written by him. Bullcrap though? No sir.
Nor does he say anything about "saving" the game. He does say that goons are more "reminding" people that they aren't playing a concentual pvp game, which a lot of people really do think they're playing. There are literally people asking CCP to remove the ability to attack other players in hi-sec space.
No hypocrisy either. If you're interested in a game like EVE, and you like the way a true sandbox works, then the article makes some very good points.
CCP promoted the burn jita event. CCP promotes the notion that miners are valid targets, even in hi-sec. CCP does not want you to be safe. CCP wants you to lose your ship, because it's the backbone of the economic structure in the EVE universe. And there are a lot of people who don't get that, or refuse to accept that.
That article actually mirrors a lot of the sentement that a lot of people here express. They're tired of the hand holding, linear, themepark design of instant gratification and constant reward that has led to a lot of mmoers who feel they are entitled to be catered to. That's how I feel, and it's not because I'm a goon, but because I'm a big proponent of the sandbox design that the industry as a whole moved away from, in favor of catering to a group who are averse to any form of emmergent gameplay.
That's what I said.
I apologize then, it might have got overshadowed by the complaints about the author of the article.
O'rly? It's not a true sandbox when you have people in the sandbox telling others that they're doing it wrong and attacking them for being wrong.
Attacking miners is one thing but attacking miners because in your opinion they're not playing the game properly is anything but championing the concept of a true sandbox.
Why do you lads always try to justify your being a bunch of assholes? It's just a video game - it's not real life so go ahead and be the biggest assholes you want to be but keep in mind that you're fooling nobody with your drivel and no one likes to play games with assholes.
"Lectroids? Planet 10? Nuclear extortion? A girl named "John"?
No, he is just sad that all his media stunts arent getting him the full attention he craves from the EvE community. Mittens is the very reson I moved into a Wormhole where I dont have to follow Important Internet Spaceship politics, and read attention seeking crap from the likes of him.
why justify it? PvP guys prey on carebears and crafters/miners its the way its always been, in every game.
Yup. Wolves hunting sheep. Just like in UO. If those sheep had a choice many of them would pick another game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In most cases, excluding hulkageddon, PVP'ers desire to hunt and prey for other PVP'ers. All the media I heard about Burn Jita was telling people that a PVP Event is going to happen, the general idea was to invite people to actually fight there.
Too bad the methaphorical sheep has dressed up into the most revealing clothes and brings in bags of money and poledaces infront of your guns. Sheep that lives in the same hillside with twentythousand wolves should probably learn how to dress up like another wolf, or at least learn how to hide in a bush.
Being non-pvp, carebear, or simply just not interested of interaction with the general populus of a MMO community does not entitle you with anything, especially not any sort of immunity or impunity for the ... well, everybody elses actions. These methaphorical wolfs don't pray on haulers on miners, haulers and miners ignorantly serve well fried sheep ass with cream sauce and red wine.
With very litte effort on security a mining operation or hauling project never ever never gets served as a free dinner.
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then
WoW - Online since launch - and now back again.
EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on..
WHO - Online 08-10
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Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
this.
slap a fantasy setting mmo with EVE's player run ecomony and bye bye subs. the amount of subs wouldnt be worth the time for the big aaa companies but ccp themselves were a small niche mmo company and rose up to be the worlds #1 sandbox.
personally, the only thing that keeps me playing EVE is the "crafting" profession production. i like to build and sell things.
pvp is god awful boring. i had to leave null sec permanately because sitting around for a couple of hours for a fight (even if there was a fight that night) was a complete waste of time.
Ironically enough i cant wait for DUST514.
also i dont have anything against the mittani or goonswarm but i dont like seeing a big group of players trying to dictate to another group of players how to play a game, especially a sandbox at that. sitting around saying others arent playing the game right in itself takes the sandbox out of a game and places it on rails....
The linked article makes some interesting points. Unfortunately, the constant insults towards players who want to play in a "safe" environment does discredit the whole thing as an intensely emotional rant.
Who exactly is forcing them to stay? And why don't the "sheep" fight back?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I don't think they're trying to fool anyone. Like you said, it's a game and they're being the bad guy. I don't understand why everyone else gets so mad, again it's just a game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
You might do well to remember that the onyl reason anyone wants to buy those things you enjoy crafting is because of the never-ending cycle of PvP. If people's ships weren't blown up, miners wouldn't be able to sell minerals.
Honestly, all this fuss just because miners are taking their turn in losing a ship just like everyone else.
I'm so sorry that you don't get to always score goals and never concede any. I'm so sorry that you don't get to only ever accumulate assets and never risk losing any.
Why should hi-sec miners be immune to ship loss when no other profession is? Why shouldn't hi-sec miners contribute towards demand by losing ships like everyone else? What makes hi-sec mining such a special profession?
You know, one interesting thing about the Hulkageddon stats is: the number and value of ships lost are more or less equivalent to the combined expenditure of one medium intensity 0.0 campaign, lasting about the same time. Only instead of being concentrated in a small fraction of the 20% or so of the population that plays in nullsec, that ship loss quotient is spread out over the whole of hi-sec. It's hard to express how ridiculous the tearful claims that losing 2 whole ships in a month "has ruined my game" are to those of us who live in 0.0. A Hulk costs about the same as a fully fitted fleet-fit tier-3 BS, just by way of comparison. A lot of people in EVE have wholly unrealistic ideas about how many ships they should expect to lose.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You know that the crafter and PVEer are the only professions that DON'T need other people most of the time ??? In EVE you can do almost all of the crafting and never need another person, since you can mine and build all the t1 things yourself.
You have no inputs other than self created and honestly, do you need to sell to continue crafting ?
Isn't that what a sandbox is?
You can 'enforce' something to another player. No other game can do that.
Don't like it? Take it to them.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This. What;s the point of getting big in a sandbox if you're not allowed to throw that weight around? Hopefully this inspires the people you are throwing your weight on to get big and throw stuff right back at you. That's what makes the sandbox interesting. Goonswarm pull this move on Band of Brothers when goons started moving into EVE a couple of years after EVE launched, they were the little guy but they managed to pool together and topple the existing regimes. So when they say that if you don't like it why don't you get together and do something about it, they are speaking from experience. They might be dicks most of the time but they make a valid point.
Getting organized and planning a counter attack would require too much effort. Plus there's no big yellow arrow pointing them in the right direction. I've seen a couple attempts during my time to get the high sec players together to try to grab a slice of 0.0. It didn't go well. The sheep don't want to help themselves, they just want to complain.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
As a sidenote (I'm not really qualified to talk about EVE) , but even I know about Hulkageddon and I just resubbed a week ago for a month to take my high-sec goofball of a toon for a spin after a year of being offline. I first noticed "Hulkageddon" being mentioned in the help channel after about 5 mins in the game and initially thought people were talking about a scary badass player (which, in a way, turned out to be true depending on your viewpoint and in a manner of speaking).
EDIT2: EDIT: And where the hell are all the radiology sites??? Where they stolen by this "Hulkageddon" person?
I agree, a core tenent of a sandbox environment (IMO) is that players are the ones who get to inflict their will on others, (iinstead of developers) assuming others will let them.
It isn't necessarily the freedom to do what "you" want, rather its the freedom to do what you want to others.
EVE has this nailed down perfectly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No interaction with other people required since you can mine and build all the T1 stuff yourself huh? Then considering the fact that any T1 ship of a cruiser size or larger and most T1 battleship-sized equipment such as every large missle and gun turret there is needs the rare minerals like Zydrine and Megacyte that you cannot mine in hisec, how exactly do you plan on making those things for yourself without interacting with other players, particularly since the drone alloys went poof? If you buy even one unit of minerals in the market, you're interacting with them. If you go into lowsec/nullsec or WH space to get access to those rare ores, you're interacting with people either by having friends around to protect you or having other people quite happily shove bullets and laser beams up your ass.
Where's the any key?
On second thought, if they admitted to being the bad guys in this video game then they'd also have to also admit that they're RPers and that's the last thing anyone wants to admit to - so, instead they are... well, you can just scroll up to the OPs link and read what illogical pains a person will go thru rather than admit to being the king of a bunch of role playing geeks.
According to them they're not doing it because it's game worthy fun; they're doing it because somebody isn't playing the game according to their estimation of how the game should be played. Once you take that position you've lost your credibility when touting the tenets of sandbox.