Why you young guys want to take a term we used and turn it into something that doesn't even make sense. I mean sure, if we were reffering to a beach you might have a point..... but again.... try building anything in the sandboxes we had growing up lol.
The term had an original meaning in relation to games, that much is true but it's not just young people who have taken that term and turned it on it's head. It came from older RTS games and sImulation games, modes that had no campaign and were freeform were dubbed Sandbox modes. Since then it's been twisted to mean so many different things in relation to games. Starting long ago.
We could get into whether they used the term based on the game-play or freedom if we want, but I don't see it going anywhere but loose wiki references or something.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
redundant nonsensical questions in a redundant nonsensical topic. Goes hand -n- hand
Themepark vs Sandbox...... who cares. Do you think when creating UO or EQ the devs were worried about being labeled a sandbox or themepark experience? No, it was about having great gameplay, a massive world with a multitude of players. It's just that simple. Themepark, nor sandbox dictate a great game, engaging gameplay experiences do.
But instead of actual ideas and productive discussions we get ridiculous debates about "this vs that" which continue to segment the genre until it becomes a dilluted cespool of rehashed "next best idea" clone games, We will end up with pay-to-play lobby games. Heck, we even had a thread recently wanting to do away with the whole MASSIVE world in mmos, and instead have instant leveling, and small scale structured pvp instances. A freaking console FPS is what it sounds like to me.
It's the whole "gang mentality" highschool drama that fuels these ridiculous topics backed by a "my game is better than yours" attitude.
I agree wholeheartedly here. The labels have become tedious subjects at this point, and you're right that devs had no thought about these labels when they were designing these games. They most likely still don't, labels typically are a fandom creation, not an artistic one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A lot of people consider it a sandbox MMO, I'm not sure if I agree or not. However, the game was less themepark then most MMO's today. There was a lot of freedom in the game to do a variety of things, which is why I think a lot of people consider it a sandbox MMO as apposed to a themepark.
Anyways.
It's the only MMO that was ever comparable to WoW in subscription numbers. Most people don't seem to realize this, mostly because it wasn't that big in the US, that L2 actually had something near 12 million people playing it at one point.
Yes, it was primarilly Asians, but so is WoW.
Which may also have some correlation to the fact that the only sandbox games in develoment with real financial backing, are coming out of asia.
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
Lol...you are 100% wrong...nuff said
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
True. The mases that like themepark mmo's, and aren't too particular might be likened to those that prefer McDonalds. Then there are those that are more mmo entertainment nutritious conscience , who prefer fine dining in a sandbox.
The problem with the 'sandbox' crowd is that even if they existed and were huge there is really no great agme out there to prove it. When Starcraft 2 came out it showed there was an RTS crowd something that Electronic Arts (Command and Conquer) felt no longer existed.
Minecraft is a very low budget very cheap game. Likely a lot of people who bought this game were not exactly fans of "sandbox" games. The same is true of Terraria and Gary's Mod.
I think minecraft is a good example of sandbox features but it is not a functioning mmo out of box really. Out of box it's a greifers dream because there are no limitations on who can create and destroy what. It's best played with friends and family that you trust. There needs to be limits on what you can do outside your space.
Sandboxes are about no limits on what you can do though so you think you love it but then after someone smashes your sandcastle 100 times you might second guess your stand. 100% hardcore sandbox mmo type games will never exist commercially because of this reason. Too many draw backs to revenue streams.
However Xyson was a good try. I think it just needed fun combat and maybe some fun dungeon progression. Interaction rules will always be the big problem in sandy games. I think there is a way to do it cleverly though. Someone will or has figured it out but funding and talent is an issue. Trick is to try to get all to exist in a company at the same time working on the same project.
Eve is not a 100% sandbox with no limitation rules.
Eve is the closest thing to a sandy game that has done well that I have played but I hate the flying and game world mechanics. It is what it is. Eve has limits on what you can do and has been trying to find the right way to balance out rules so it is fun for all. It is not easy. It is worth trying though even with lame flight controls and limited world tangibility.
Eve feels abstract and you really struggle to feel like you are in a real universe. All you have to explore is what is on a list. That is not exactly fun exploration or good for any game play. I think you need sectors like X3 had, filled with stuff that you can find and in an actually static tangible way. X Rebirth mechanics with highways you steer in and fight in would be even better.
I think Darkall would have done better with PVE only dungeon progression zones as well as the "hard spawn" substitution. Plus Darfall had grind and balance issues I did not expect or like.
I think we need a 3 world rule set (PVE, PVP softcore, and PVP hardcore with player owned stuff like stations) game that is SCI-FI with spaceships cause it's more funnerest with spaceships! It also needs great combat and flight mechanics.
True. The mases that like themepark mmo's, and aren't too particular might be likened to those that prefer McDonalds. Then there are those that are more mmo entertainment nutritious conscience , who prefer fine dining in a sandbox.
No one has more refined taste than the other. The whole premise of the restaurant vs fastfood example is false.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
I dont care who the fuck laughs at me, I like my games to have depth and allow me to create my own adventure instead of my characters story being hand fed to me.
Speaking of which do you understand the idea of individualism? I dont care if there isnt a massive fan base for sandbox games, Im an individual who perfers one play style to the other, I dont dislike theme-parks, in fact when they are good (Like you even said) I play them, but they havent made a good themepark in years because of jaded devs playing to the majority.
So maybe you right, maybe there isnt even a million sandbox players out there, but I would rather be an individual, following my own ideals, than doing what the majority wants simply because you and everyone else are going to "Snicker" at me.
Man I guess I should stop listening to Sludge, Doom, Stoner Metal, cause they arent popular styles of music right?
Trade in my Wizard Rifle T-Shirt for a super sweet lady gaga tee, maybe ill even start going to church and watching fox news on the reg, hell maybe ill even go so far as to start hatin them gays and queers ive been hearing so much about, most of the people in America hate them right? I think black people are a minority maybe I should hate them too and "Snicker" at them when they play that loud rap music driving by my apartment.
Well since a Alpha Mod with perma death on a game that isn't even a FPS has 113667 living players, and the murders to bandit kill ratio suggests that players are banding together to fight back agaist the giefers. If a non MMO can get this much attention in such a short time with a alpha mod then a full sandbox zombie MMO would do well don't you think?
Characters:
1728890
Alive Characters:
113667
Bandits:
17176
Unique Players:
134153
Zombie kills:
22599709
Murders:
282900
Bandits killed:
134449
Total Walked:
8269276km
Time Played:
25988d 0h
Average Deaths:
12.8881
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think sandbox will feature in the notion that mmorpgs have large potential (innovation, market returns) still as a genre and it's not likely near it's max by a long stretch. So no and yes to OP's question. /Don't go to the elves for advice for they shall say no and yes.
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
Well, my feeling is, you're incorrect. Also, where do you get off saying people love themeparks but don't like bad games, when they're one and the same? I think it's a bigger myth that themeparks are supposedly good, enjoyable games. (No I don't care to hear all your talk of the many, many successful and actually good themeparks, I know they're there.)
Agree some of the best games I played have been ran by 1-5 people. Deloria, Terraria Online, Rpg world online, Deliantra, EUO etc etc. Runescape was originally ran by 3 guys in their mums basement and used to be good back in the day. So, I'm not saying it cant / won't work. I'm pretty dissapointed in Blizzard lately with how D3 is running or not running as it would appear. Lazy development etc which you usually don't see in some smaller companies.
Commercial reality is commercial reality and numbers are what they are.
Until these 'sandbox' people put their money down to support games that have mechanics that they like, the MMO Sandbox will always be considered niche.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Commercial reality is commercial reality and numbers are what they are.
Until these 'sandbox' people put their money down to support games that have mechanics that they like, the MMO Sandbox will always be considered niche.
Every MMO beside WOW is niche! Every Themepark has failed compared to WOW and compared to the expectations investors and publishers had!
A wise developer, a wise publisher would look for a big and uncompeted niche and that is sandbox bcs there is one big SciFi-Sandbox with EVE and one Fantasy-Sandbox with Ultima which is 15 years old. But the marketwindow closes fast bcs there is CCP with World of Darkness, there is Archeage, SOE announcing to go away from the pure Themepark.
Yet for not having a massive Sandbox crowd: 6 Million people play Minecraft 10 Million people play Skyrim (sandboxy virtual fantasy world) 22 Million people play GTA IV (which is an open world game and therefore sandboxy) Unknown how many millions of people play sandboxy browser games.
OP is right once that a full loot ffa pvp, no content, boring, crafting-unfriendly, destroyer-friendly, anarchic and chaotic game does not cater many people. If a developers targetgroup is the wolves he must not wonder why the sheep stay away!
But a less onedimensional approach to a sandbox game with a developer that understands that a sandbox is not more than a desert in a frame when there is nothing but sand and enriches the sandbox with toys and tools and a background lore and targets the sheep has a good chance to grow big in the sandbox niche and have a game of longevity. And the wolves will come bcs the sheep be there...
And yeah, people just dont play shitty games!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
"Massive" is one of those keen words that doesn't really have a set meaning; so to deny that something "massive" doesn't exist just requires you wiggle around with redefinition.
How many 'fans' constitutes 'massive'? Define your terms, and then we'll discuss.
Damn, this message board needs to rename itself. Equivocation.com, maybe.
Never mind, the original OP was just a one-shot stir the pot and disappear classic.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
I think it is at least 1/5 of the total mmo players.
That is pretty massive imo.
Make a poll though or you are just talking shit.
The term had an original meaning in relation to games, that much is true but it's not just young people who have taken that term and turned it on it's head. It came from older RTS games and sImulation games, modes that had no campaign and were freeform were dubbed Sandbox modes. Since then it's been twisted to mean so many different things in relation to games. Starting long ago.
We could get into whether they used the term based on the game-play or freedom if we want, but I don't see it going anywhere but loose wiki references or something.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree wholeheartedly here. The labels have become tedious subjects at this point, and you're right that devs had no thought about these labels when they were designing these games. They most likely still don't, labels typically are a fandom creation, not an artistic one.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd like to point out another game.
Lineage 2
A lot of people consider it a sandbox MMO, I'm not sure if I agree or not. However, the game was less themepark then most MMO's today. There was a lot of freedom in the game to do a variety of things, which is why I think a lot of people consider it a sandbox MMO as apposed to a themepark.
Anyways.
It's the only MMO that was ever comparable to WoW in subscription numbers. Most people don't seem to realize this, mostly because it wasn't that big in the US, that L2 actually had something near 12 million people playing it at one point.
Yes, it was primarilly Asians, but so is WoW.
Which may also have some correlation to the fact that the only sandbox games in develoment with real financial backing, are coming out of asia.
It's a small niche unless you take away FFA PVP looting
No it's not. It's a small niche if you only count a single part of the world, the west.
The reality is, games are global these days.
Lol...you are 100% wrong...nuff said
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
True. The mases that like themepark mmo's, and aren't too particular might be likened to those that prefer McDonalds. Then there are those that are more mmo entertainment nutritious conscience , who prefer fine dining in a sandbox.
The idea of "sandbox" vs "themepark" is a myth.
People need to play Asheron's Call.
The problem with the 'sandbox' crowd is that even if they existed and were huge there is really no great agme out there to prove it. When Starcraft 2 came out it showed there was an RTS crowd something that Electronic Arts (Command and Conquer) felt no longer existed.
Minecraft is a very low budget very cheap game. Likely a lot of people who bought this game were not exactly fans of "sandbox" games. The same is true of Terraria and Gary's Mod.
Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker
I think minecraft is a good example of sandbox features but it is not a functioning mmo out of box really. Out of box it's a greifers dream because there are no limitations on who can create and destroy what. It's best played with friends and family that you trust. There needs to be limits on what you can do outside your space.
Sandboxes are about no limits on what you can do though so you think you love it but then after someone smashes your sandcastle 100 times you might second guess your stand. 100% hardcore sandbox mmo type games will never exist commercially because of this reason. Too many draw backs to revenue streams.
However Xyson was a good try. I think it just needed fun combat and maybe some fun dungeon progression. Interaction rules will always be the big problem in sandy games. I think there is a way to do it cleverly though. Someone will or has figured it out but funding and talent is an issue. Trick is to try to get all to exist in a company at the same time working on the same project.
Eve is not a 100% sandbox with no limitation rules.
Eve is the closest thing to a sandy game that has done well that I have played but I hate the flying and game world mechanics. It is what it is. Eve has limits on what you can do and has been trying to find the right way to balance out rules so it is fun for all. It is not easy. It is worth trying though even with lame flight controls and limited world tangibility.
Eve feels abstract and you really struggle to feel like you are in a real universe. All you have to explore is what is on a list. That is not exactly fun exploration or good for any game play. I think you need sectors like X3 had, filled with stuff that you can find and in an actually static tangible way. X Rebirth mechanics with highways you steer in and fight in would be even better.
I think Darkall would have done better with PVE only dungeon progression zones as well as the "hard spawn" substitution. Plus Darfall had grind and balance issues I did not expect or like.
I think we need a 3 world rule set (PVE, PVP softcore, and PVP hardcore with player owned stuff like stations) game that is SCI-FI with spaceships cause it's more funnerest with spaceships! It also needs great combat and flight mechanics.
Peeps love Zynga games,its cool that you found your peeps who dont like shitty games.
Let's internet
No one has more refined taste than the other. The whole premise of the restaurant vs fastfood example is false.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I dont care who the fuck laughs at me, I like my games to have depth and allow me to create my own adventure instead of my characters story being hand fed to me.
Speaking of which do you understand the idea of individualism? I dont care if there isnt a massive fan base for sandbox games, Im an individual who perfers one play style to the other, I dont dislike theme-parks, in fact when they are good (Like you even said) I play them, but they havent made a good themepark in years because of jaded devs playing to the majority.
So maybe you right, maybe there isnt even a million sandbox players out there, but I would rather be an individual, following my own ideals, than doing what the majority wants simply because you and everyone else are going to "Snicker" at me.
Man I guess I should stop listening to Sludge, Doom, Stoner Metal, cause they arent popular styles of music right?
Trade in my Wizard Rifle T-Shirt for a super sweet lady gaga tee, maybe ill even start going to church and watching fox news on the reg, hell maybe ill even go so far as to start hatin them gays and queers ive been hearing so much about, most of the people in America hate them right? I think black people are a minority maybe I should hate them too and "Snicker" at them when they play that loud rap music driving by my apartment.
Nah, thats fucking stupid.
"Within every Theme Park inmate is a Sand Box guy waiting to break out."
-Me, just now
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Well since a Alpha Mod with perma death on a game that isn't even a FPS has 113667 living players, and the murders to bandit kill ratio suggests that players are banding together to fight back agaist the giefers. If a non MMO can get this much attention in such a short time with a alpha mod then a full sandbox zombie MMO would do well don't you think?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think sandbox will feature in the notion that mmorpgs have large potential (innovation, market returns) still as a genre and it's not likely near it's max by a long stretch. So no and yes to OP's question. /Don't go to the elves for advice for they shall say no and yes.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Well, my feeling is, you're incorrect. Also, where do you get off saying people love themeparks but don't like bad games, when they're one and the same? I think it's a bigger myth that themeparks are supposedly good, enjoyable games. (No I don't care to hear all your talk of the many, many successful and actually good themeparks, I know they're there.)
There is, you do, they have, and there are. Next baseless assertion, please.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Agree some of the best games I played have been ran by 1-5 people. Deloria, Terraria Online, Rpg world online, Deliantra, EUO etc etc. Runescape was originally ran by 3 guys in their mums basement and used to be good back in the day. So, I'm not saying it cant / won't work. I'm pretty dissapointed in Blizzard lately with how D3 is running or not running as it would appear. Lazy development etc which you usually don't see in some smaller companies.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I'm a sandbox fan.. *raises hand*
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
I enjoyed darkfall on release...then it got wayyyy to easy
Commercial reality is commercial reality and numbers are what they are.
Until these 'sandbox' people put their money down to support games that have mechanics that they like, the MMO Sandbox will always be considered niche.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Every MMO beside WOW is niche!
Every Themepark has failed compared to WOW and compared to the expectations investors and publishers had!
A wise developer, a wise publisher would look for a big and uncompeted niche and that is sandbox bcs there is one big SciFi-Sandbox with EVE and one Fantasy-Sandbox with Ultima which is 15 years old.
But the marketwindow closes fast bcs there is CCP with World of Darkness, there is Archeage, SOE announcing to go away from the pure Themepark.
Yet for not having a massive Sandbox crowd:
6 Million people play Minecraft
10 Million people play Skyrim (sandboxy virtual fantasy world)
22 Million people play GTA IV (which is an open world game and therefore sandboxy)
Unknown how many millions of people play sandboxy browser games.
OP is right once that a full loot ffa pvp, no content, boring, crafting-unfriendly, destroyer-friendly, anarchic and chaotic game does not cater many people.
If a developers targetgroup is the wolves he must not wonder why the sheep stay away!
But a less onedimensional approach to a sandbox game with a developer that understands that a sandbox is not more than a desert in a frame when there is nothing but sand and enriches the sandbox with toys and tools and a background lore and targets the sheep has a good chance to grow big in the sandbox niche and have a game of longevity.
And the wolves will come bcs the sheep be there...
And yeah, people just dont play shitty games!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
"Massive" is one of those keen words that doesn't really have a set meaning; so to deny that something "massive" doesn't exist just requires you wiggle around with redefinition.
How many 'fans' constitutes 'massive'? Define your terms, and then we'll discuss.
Damn, this message board needs to rename itself. Equivocation.com, maybe.
Never mind, the original OP was just a one-shot stir the pot and disappear classic.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.