I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong).
You are wrong - Turbine does it.
Umm, Turbine games are all free now. and I know for sure that AC1, DDO and LoTRo were not selling bag space before they went F2P/Pay trap
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong).
You are wrong - Turbine does it.
Umm, Turbine games are all free now. and I know for sure that AC1, DDO and LoTRo were not selling bag space before they went F2P/Pay trap
You should be careful when saying things like "Umm" when you aren't standing on firm ground of knowledge. I have a DDO account (PTP) and trust me, I can go spend $5 and buy some bag space at any time.
They also keep adding things like crafting and traps which guess what.... require a lot of inventory space!
Alright, so it is smart to extract that rent from players?
You might be right. Sure, sure. My particular problem with that specific feature is that, as I said... it is lazy. If I am a developer, and I put inventory space in my cash shop, and I know people will buy it... this makes me not want to produce new content to put in the cash shop.
Why does it do that? Because I know I can extract an extra $20 per character, and each player gets 3 characters when they buy the game, which cost $60 to begin with. So I'm getting $120 per player and I haven't done a damned thing yet.
You might look at that and say it is "Smart", however I look at that and say it is lazy and exploitative.
That would be true if it was always the case.
See, someone like Funcom for example has bags for sale and are not creating new content...but then again, they didnt create new content when it was a sub game and the bags were free...
Some companies are lazy, they are lazy because they are...not because they know they can sell bags.
I say that, because there are more than a few games that sell bags and continually add new content.
I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong).
You are wrong - Turbine does it.
Umm, Turbine games are all free now. and I know for sure that AC1, DDO and LoTRo were not selling bag space before they went F2P/Pay trap
You should be careful when saying things like "Umm" when you aren't standing on firm ground of knowledge. I have a DDO account (PTP) and trust me, I can go spend $5 and buy some bag space at any time.
...which, as he said, is something that was added once the game went free to play. They didn't reduce your bag space onceit went F2P and then sell it back to you. They offered it as an extra above what you have.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong).
You are wrong - Turbine does it.
Umm, Turbine games are all free now. and I know for sure that AC1, DDO and LoTRo were not selling bag space before they went F2P/Pay trap
You should be careful when saying things like "Umm" when you aren't standing on firm ground of knowledge. I have a DDO account (PTP) and trust me, I can go spend $5 and buy some bag space at any time.
...which, as he said, is something that was added once the game went free to play. They didn't reduce your bag space onceit went F2P and then sell it back to you. They offered it as an extra above what you have.
No, but they added plenty of things to take up your bag space, which effectively is the same thing. You're also putting words into their mouths. Read the original quote. "I never heard of a sub MMO selling invenotry space". Turbine has sub MMOs that sell bag space to sub players. I am 100% correct.
"Oh noes my character cannot hold as many Globs of Bug Ichor without spending a couple of bucks in the cash shop," is the same as engaging in real world biological warfare with the expectation of selling curatives to your targets ?
You know what its really like ?
Selling a product that people might want to, but dont have to, buy.
A person who really hates something can't make a point without a hyperbole.
Not true, I would hate a system that limited my bag space only to encourage me to buy more. That's not hyperbole that's just how I feel. Selling bag-space should be to have an advantage rather than overcome a disadvantage placed to enduce such sales. A really good example is how FC did it in AOC's F2p a horrible design, can't even use what space that was there all along.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We all play games to enjoy them, so why do we continue to play games that you have to dump an extra $100 per character into convenience unlocks just to enjoy them?
What games are you playing ?
I have not yet run into this phenomenon.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
"Oh noes my character cannot hold as many Globs of Bug Ichor without spending a couple of bucks in the cash shop," is the same as engaging in real world biological warfare with the expectation of selling curatives to your targets ?
You know what its really like ?
Selling a product that people might want to, but dont have to, buy.
A person who really hates something can't make a point without a hyperbole.
Not true, I would hate a system that limited my bag space only to encourage me to buy more. That's not hyperbole that's just how I feel. Selling bag-space should be to have an advantage rather than overcome a disadvantage placed to enduce such sales. A really good example is how FC did it in AOC's F2p a horrible design, can't even use what space that was there all along.
He was referring to the decision to compare real world bio-weapon based mass murder to selling inventory slots in a video game. You are going to have to do some really serious debating to convince anyone that such is not hyperbole.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I've been watching the MMO market for the past 15 years or so, and at this point... I have to say there are a few things that just signal to me that a game designer is lazy and doesn't deserve my money.
What're a few things you can think of?
For me, the first thing I look at is always the cash shop. I sit down with my calculator and figure out exactly how far I can get with $20. I look at how much of what I can buy in the cash shop is unlockable in the game itself. I begin to form my opinion based on what I see there.
Usually, a big indicator that a developer is just being lazy is if they're selling inventory space. Stash/bank space is a bit more of a grey area, but inventory space by character is a big red flag. Here is why I think that, over the past 5 years it seems that every free to play mmo has sold inventory space of some sort and at this point it has gotten stale and boring hearing about how this game is different from that game and so on and so forth when they all want to monetize on tuning the basic inventory space way too low. It is too easy, too standard of a thing that requires almost no forethought and seems like it should be considered a lazy practice.
Selling inventory space is almost always a MAJOR red flag. The only exception is if the game gives you standard bag space for free and what you buy truly is a luxury. That one aspect really angered me in several F2P MMOs.
My big ones are:
1) P2W gear in cash shop
2) Paying to unlock classes
3) Asian style art
4) FFA loot
5) Pure clone of another MMO
I'm almost at the point where a subscription is a turn off. I certainly wouldn't pay a sub to play TERA, TSW or Aion. SWTOR lost me due to it not being worth the sub fee.
For me the biggest turn off is a subscription fee.
Second is a single player game that requires you to be online = ridiculous
As for those who complain about LotRO or GW2 "selling" bags: in both cases, you only need to take a little of your time to acquire the necessary stuff (TP or gold for gems) to "buy" those bags from the CS. So, you don't have to spend a dime of RL money on inventory. I know LotRO is like this because that's how I do it in that game - GW2 could change before release but I doubt it will. So, how is it lazy if the devs give you multiple options to acquire these things?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Selling inventory space is almost always a MAJOR red flag. The only exception is if the game gives you standard bag space for free and what you buy truly is a luxury. That one aspect really angered me in several F2P MMOs.
My big ones are:
1) P2W gear in cash shop
2) Paying to unlock classes
3) Asian style art
4) FFA loot
5) Pure clone of another MMO
I'm almost at the point where a subscription is a turn off. I certainly wouldn't pay a sub to play TERA, TSW or Aion. SWTOR lost me due to it not being worth the sub fee.
I'd gotten wrapped up in a few of the other sub conversations... but thank you for being on topic.
I'd like to point out that an Asian themed art style is only a problem if it is done poorly, and paying to unlock classes is a pain only if you can't unlock them individually in the game itself by playing the game.
I wouldn't mind an example of your #5 point though.
I have never played an RPG (including Elder Scrolls and Baldurs Gate franchises besides MMOs) where at some point inventory space didn't become an issue. Inventory management is a core part of playing these types of games. I have never payed real money to increase my inventory space. Now, I haven't played every f2p MMORPG out there, but I have played Lotro, STO, and CoH. Heck, STO has a replicator you can drop loot into for credits, so inventory space should NEVER be an issue in that game.
Inventory space is just another fluff item for hoarders, just as shiney costume pieces are fluff for clothes horses, and character slots are fluff for altaholics. Play the games you enjoy. They will all get some of your money some way. Lets face it, MMOs are some of the cheapest entertainment for the dollar you will ever find. They are all bargains unless you either don't play them or get really, really stupid in the cash shop.
It's hard to say what "sure signs" there would be that a particular title wouldn't be something I'm interested in- for the most part I really have to play the game to make that decision. Some things in particular that are huge turn offs for me:
Lack of UI/control customization (including controller support)
I have never played an RPG (including Elder Scrolls and Baldurs Gate franchises besides MMOs) where at some point inventory space didn't become an issue. Inventory management is a core part of playing these types of games. I have never payed real money to increase my inventory space. Now, I haven't played every f2p MMORPG out there, but I have played Lotro, STO, and CoH. Heck, STO has a replicator you can drop loot into for credits, so inventory space should NEVER be an issue in that game.
Inventory space is just another fluff item for hoarders, just as shiney costume pieces are fluff for clothes horses, and character slots are fluff for altaholics. Play the games you enjoy. They will all get some of your money some way. Lets face it, MMOs are some of the cheapest entertainment for the dollar you will ever find. They are all bargains unless you either don't play them or get really, really stupid in the cash shop.
As I said, STO is one of the better examples of a well managed cash shop. The convenience stuff is there for convenience, not because it is nescesary to enjoy the game.
But yea, I do play MMOs specifically so I can hoard and gamble without spending real space and money.
When they show signs that they want to release a game when it is ready, instead of rushing it and then having to delay it because the game isn't... like some of the upcoming ones have done >.>
That is a statement. Not a question. Learn the diffrence.
If you're going to be a grammar troll you should probably point out that the topic was a fragment, and then follow that up by incorrectly using a semicolon.
Seriously, did you not understand what he was saying? Lighten up.
Alright, so it is smart to extract that rent from players?
You might be right. Sure, sure. My particular problem with that specific feature is that, as I said... it is lazy. If I am a developer, and I put inventory space in my cash shop, and I know people will buy it... this makes me not want to produce new content to put in the cash shop.
Why does it do that? Because I know I can extract an extra $20 per character, and each player gets 3 characters when they buy the game, which cost $60 to begin with. So I'm getting $120 per player and I haven't done a damned thing yet.
You might look at that and say it is "Smart", however I look at that and say it is lazy and exploitative.
That would be true if it was always the case.
See, someone like Funcom for example has bags for sale and are not creating new content...but then again, they didnt create new content when it was a sub game and the bags were free...
Some companies are lazy, they are lazy because they are...not because they know they can sell bags.
I say that, because there are more than a few games that sell bags and continually add new content.
Well what games are those?
LOTRO sells bag space and updates their content pretty regularly.
I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong). Just because it's theoretically possible to level to max or threrabouts without ever using the cash shops in most freemium MMOs doesn't mean that they should make it preferable. Development costs money, keeping the lights on costs money, paying live development teams costs money.
If you're at a point where inventory space is that much of a concern - which usually takes a while - then you either need to decide if it's worth it or not. If it's a decent enough game, it shouldn't be some sort of epic struggle to decide whether or not to pitch $5 into the cash shop for an extra bag. But complaining that companies are trying to monetize a product that significant resources have been committed to misses the point of the enterprise entirely.
Ok, you know what... if it was ever JUST $5 then it would never have been an issue. The problem is that they'll try to sell you extra bags at $5 per each and they aren't account wide, they're per character and not account wide, so you'd end up needing to drop an extra $200 just to get all the bags and usually its not even a bag slot. It is usually an extra 6-8 spaces.
Take Star Trek Online for one example. You can spend snag 8 per character at $2.50 each, and 4$ for each of the 8 bank slots available, so per character you're spending $52 on JUST inventory space.
Meanwhile they have $500 of account wide content in their cash shop and really don't need to bilk consumers on inventory space. That is one of the more equitable cash shops too. It does have a good amount of content in their cash shop and they try to add new things to it at least once a month.
My point is that the inventory space that is sold in EVERY cash shop I can think of and it is passed the point of being cliche. So why on earth would I keep paying for a cliche?
I'm not sure why the novelty of a business model has anything to do with it. If I were to take your argument to its extreme, manufacturing a product and then selling it for money is the biggest cliche in business.
In any case, yes, if you were to buy every bag unlock for every character, it might be $200 in some games, but that would be at the extreme top end. If you were to buy two bag slots in LOTRO (for example), you'd run 990 TP (~$10 depending on factors), which is less than the cost of a month of subscription in most sub games or premium tiers for freemiums. So, unless other games are abusing that, I don't really think that the value proposition is out of line.
Except that there are other things in cash shops that are far far more profitable than inventory space, even the most profitable inventory space proposition. What really gets my goat is when companies release a cash shop bag expansion while in the same breath touting the quality of their game.
If they were a real quality MMO they'd be selling other things in their cash shop while making any of the bag expansions part of the game. Or at the very least make the cash shop bag expansions unlockable in the game, because damn... having to pay for character slots AND convenience unlocks (which are designed to be inconvenient) diminishes any feeling of equity I get from spending money on the game.
But just so we're clear here:
Developers intentionally reduce how much inventory space you get just so they can sell more inventory space in the cash shop
In addition to that, it has become a trend in the industry and it is very unenjoyable
We all play games to enjoy them, so why do we continue to play games that you have to dump an extra $100 per character into convenience unlocks just to enjoy them?
When I say it has become cliche, I mean it has become a trope. Something to be made fun of. I would make fun of it if it wasn't so sad.
People have proven that a developer can design a system where they make a lot of money just selling cosmetic upgrades for their characters.
As I said earlier, it'd be fine if it was a once or twice fee of something below $10. Its not. Most developers design it so that they can continue to charge that $10 a nigh-infinite number of times.
But what about free to play games with boxed sales? Should those bag expensions be part of those games even though you already just gave the developers $60?
Well, I think it's about perspective. Not all freemium games handle the cash shops the same way, and it's hard to lump them all together. But generally speaking, they give you enough access to play the game well enough with the hopes that you'll purchase, on an a la carte basis, the other features that you find valuable. Bag space is a pretty obvious one here, along with the other standards (assorted time savers, cosmetics, etc.). I don't really see how it is sad or a trope, other than the fact that it's a reasonably non-obtrusive way to let people sample the product while still offering value for cash shop purchases, if they go that route, since it's not really a requirement to play the game - just forego the vendor loot.
As far as only selling cosmetics goes, I'm not really sure when that's been proven. Unless you're talking about cosmetics in a cash shop on top of a subscription model (TERA, EVE) or selling hats in TF2 five years after its original release, I can't think of any game that only has cosmetic items in the cash shop. I strongly suspect that if anyone did try it, it wouldn't work out, but that's just my guess. There's too little room for repeat buyers like with XP boosters or whatnot.
Originally posted by LoktofeitThe only subscription MMO I am familiar with that sells extended inventory is UO. Is there another one that you are referring to, or are you actually crying foul about a free game you are playing actually charging you for something a month or so in?
Ok, so Star Trek Online did for a long time before they went free to play. Guild Wars 2 will, but again... not sure if that counts. Regardless, it still seems lazy to me. Selling inventory space for real money.
Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a subscription fee.
But lets look at GW2 as an example.
You start with a 20 space backpack. Additionally you can add 4 other bags of up to 20 spaces each. So that is 100 spaces. with no money invested.
You can then pay to unlock 3 more bag slots for $5 each..
So for $15, which is basically a monthly fee, you have your character with an additional 60 potential slots, if you need it.
Considering you can salvage weapons, armor and other items to obtain crafting materials and those crafting materials can be sent instantly to your crafting materials bank storage panel and that you can additionally list items in the AH from everywhere (each opens a slot in your bag), simply following your general rule wouldn't be that good IMO.
Picture of the account vault depicting the crafting materials pane:
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I think you're confusing "Free to Play" with "Free" (I've never heard of a sub MMO selling inventory space; I could be wrong). Just because it's theoretically possible to level to max or threrabouts without ever using the cash shops in most freemium MMOs doesn't mean that they should make it preferable. Development costs money, keeping the lights on costs money, paying live development teams costs money.
If you're at a point where inventory space is that much of a concern - which usually takes a while - then you either need to decide if it's worth it or not. If it's a decent enough game, it shouldn't be some sort of epic struggle to decide whether or not to pitch $5 into the cash shop for an extra bag. But complaining that companies are trying to monetize a product that significant resources have been committed to misses the point of the enterprise entirely.
Ok, you know what... if it was ever JUST $5 then it would never have been an issue. The problem is that they'll try to sell you extra bags at $5 per each and they aren't account wide, they're per character and not account wide, so you'd end up needing to drop an extra $200 just to get all the bags and usually its not even a bag slot. It is usually an extra 6-8 spaces.
Take Star Trek Online for one example. You can spend snag 8 per character at $2.50 each, and 4$ for each of the 8 bank slots available, so per character you're spending $52 on JUST inventory space.
Meanwhile they have $500 of account wide content in their cash shop and really don't need to bilk consumers on inventory space. That is one of the more equitable cash shops too. It does have a good amount of content in their cash shop and they try to add new things to it at least once a month.
My point is that the inventory space that is sold in EVERY cash shop I can think of and it is passed the point of being cliche. So why on earth would I keep paying for a cliche?
I'm not sure why the novelty of a business model has anything to do with it. If I were to take your argument to its extreme, manufacturing a product and then selling it for money is the biggest cliche in business.
In any case, yes, if you were to buy every bag unlock for every character, it might be $200 in some games, but that would be at the extreme top end. If you were to buy two bag slots in LOTRO (for example), you'd run 990 TP (~$10 depending on factors), which is less than the cost of a month of subscription in most sub games or premium tiers for freemiums. So, unless other games are abusing that, I don't really think that the value proposition is out of line.
Except that there are other things in cash shops that are far far more profitable than inventory space, even the most profitable inventory space proposition. What really gets my goat is when companies release a cash shop bag expansion while in the same breath touting the quality of their game.
If they were a real quality MMO they'd be selling other things in their cash shop while making any of the bag expansions part of the game. Or at the very least make the cash shop bag expansions unlockable in the game, because damn... having to pay for character slots AND convenience unlocks (which are designed to be inconvenient) diminishes any feeling of equity I get from spending money on the game.
But just so we're clear here:
Developers intentionally reduce how much inventory space you get just so they can sell more inventory space in the cash shop
In addition to that, it has become a trend in the industry and it is very unenjoyable
We all play games to enjoy them, so why do we continue to play games that you have to dump an extra $100 per character into convenience unlocks just to enjoy them?
When I say it has become cliche, I mean it has become a trope. Something to be made fun of. I would make fun of it if it wasn't so sad.
People have proven that a developer can design a system where they make a lot of money just selling cosmetic upgrades for their characters.
As I said earlier, it'd be fine if it was a once or twice fee of something below $10. Its not. Most developers design it so that they can continue to charge that $10 a nigh-infinite number of times.
But what about free to play games with boxed sales? Should those bag expensions be part of those games even though you already just gave the developers $60?
Well, I think it's about perspective. Not all freemium games handle the cash shops the same way, and it's hard to lump them all together. But generally speaking, they give you enough access to play the game well enough with the hopes that you'll purchase, on an a la carte basis, the other features that you find valuable. Bag space is a pretty obvious one here, along with the other standards (assorted time savers, cosmetics, etc.). I don't really see how it is sad or a trope, other than the fact that it's a reasonably non-obtrusive way to let people sample the product while still offering value for cash shop purchases, if they go that route, since it's not really a requirement to play the game - just forego the vendor loot.
As far as only selling cosmetics goes, I'm not really sure when that's been proven. Unless you're talking about cosmetics in a cash shop on top of a subscription model (TERA, EVE) or selling hats in TF2 five years after its original release, I can't think of any game that only has cosmetic items in the cash shop. I strongly suspect that if anyone did try it, it wouldn't work out, but that's just my guess. There's too little room for repeat buyers like with XP boosters or whatnot.
Alrighty, so I'm just gonna go ahead and call it right now. WoW is going to have tokens available in MoP that let people get a second shake at raid boss loot (basic y/n choice, consumes one token for another roll at the loot table), and those are already confirmed. My prediction is that they'll sell additional tokens via the blizzard store. People may call that pay to win, but all they're really winning is the oppurtunity to run that raid instance less by using a bunch of tokens for double loot. Not exactly innovative... still preferable to charging money for inventory space.
Also, most MMO game engines are so rich that they can support entire other games in them with little to no additional programming (art assets though, those are costly). I mean... good lord, I would pay for a poker table with a magically ensorcelled imp that deals the cards. I would pay real money for that. Why not sell additional minigames?
Like how WoW is implementing pet battles so they can make a bit of extra money selling pets in their store.
Also, player and guild housing. Selling cosmetic upgrades for that?
And costumes in DCUO? I probably would have plunked down $100 for account wide costume unlocks if their selection was worth a shot. I think the way they managed the costumes was about the ONLY thing that DCUO got right.
Now, that is a 5 minute brainstorming session. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE COSMETIC AND CONVENIENCE. All of them. Yes, one or two of them spread into the grey area, but you already admitted that selling inventory space spills over into that grey area (even if you did qualify it with "if you've already payed for the game"). The people making these games are getting paid a good salary, and they are getting paid that salary to pump out a game worth playing, and they have years to plan it out. I am still asserting that with YEARS to plan it out, they should be able to come up other things to sell besides inventory space.
This speaks to the core compulsion cycle that a lot of developers don't seem to grasp.
Originally posted by LoktofeitThe only subscription MMO I am familiar with that sells extended inventory is UO. Is there another one that you are referring to, or are you actually crying foul about a free game you are playing actually charging you for something a month or so in?
Ok, so Star Trek Online did for a long time before they went free to play. Guild Wars 2 will, but again... not sure if that counts. Regardless, it still seems lazy to me. Selling inventory space for real money.
Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a subscription fee.
But lets look at GW2 as an example.
You start with a 20 space backpack. Additionally you can add 4 other bags of up to 20 spaces each. So that is 100 spaces. with no money invested.
You can then pay to unlock 3 more bag slots for $5 each..
So for $15, which is basically a monthly fee, you have your character with an additional 60 potential slots, if you need it.
Considering you can salvage weapons, armor and other items to obtain crafting materials and those crafting materials can be sent instantly to your crafting materials bank storage panel and that you can additionally list items in the AH from everywhere (each opens a slot in your bag), simply following your general rule wouldn't be that good IMO.
Picture of the account vault depicting the crafting materials pane:
Just to double check... are you asserting that they couldn't have figured out something better to sell BESIDES inventory space that would not have been equally as profitable and less intrusive?
I appreciate the effort you put into that, and it does sound like a very feature rich system. Even so I still firmly beleive that them selling inventory space reeks of laziness. I get that they have to subsidize their servers, but what I'm saying is that they could have basically picked just about any other thing to sell me, and slaughtered that sacred cow for the sole purpose of proving that they are the quality MMO they say they are and don't need to rely on such base tactics of monetization.
Comments
Umm, Turbine games are all free now. and I know for sure that AC1, DDO and LoTRo were not selling bag space before they went F2P/Pay trap
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You should be careful when saying things like "Umm" when you aren't standing on firm ground of knowledge. I have a DDO account (PTP) and trust me, I can go spend $5 and buy some bag space at any time.
They also keep adding things like crafting and traps which guess what.... require a lot of inventory space!
Well what games are those?
Until a game doesn't feel fun for me.
Then again, I'm not a 'principle' guy and will buy whatever game if I like it.
Online DRM?
Pffft!
OOO SHINY!
Yes, I am the mainstream guy that ensures EA/Activision/etc all sell millions. :P
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
...which, as he said, is something that was added once the game went free to play. They didn't reduce your bag space onceit went F2P and then sell it back to you. They offered it as an extra above what you have.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, but they added plenty of things to take up your bag space, which effectively is the same thing. You're also putting words into their mouths. Read the original quote. "I never heard of a sub MMO selling invenotry space". Turbine has sub MMOs that sell bag space to sub players. I am 100% correct.
Not true, I would hate a system that limited my bag space only to encourage me to buy more. That's not hyperbole that's just how I feel. Selling bag-space should be to have an advantage rather than overcome a disadvantage placed to enduce such sales. A really good example is how FC did it in AOC's F2p a horrible design, can't even use what space that was there all along.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What games are you playing ?
I have not yet run into this phenomenon.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
He was referring to the decision to compare real world bio-weapon based mass murder to selling inventory slots in a video game. You are going to have to do some really serious debating to convince anyone that such is not hyperbole.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Selling inventory space is almost always a MAJOR red flag. The only exception is if the game gives you standard bag space for free and what you buy truly is a luxury. That one aspect really angered me in several F2P MMOs.
My big ones are:
1) P2W gear in cash shop
2) Paying to unlock classes
3) Asian style art
4) FFA loot
5) Pure clone of another MMO
I'm almost at the point where a subscription is a turn off. I certainly wouldn't pay a sub to play TERA, TSW or Aion. SWTOR lost me due to it not being worth the sub fee.
AC1 is free now??...THe website says its only a 14 day free trial.
For me the biggest turn off is a subscription fee.
Second is a single player game that requires you to be online = ridiculous
As for those who complain about LotRO or GW2 "selling" bags: in both cases, you only need to take a little of your time to acquire the necessary stuff (TP or gold for gems) to "buy" those bags from the CS. So, you don't have to spend a dime of RL money on inventory. I know LotRO is like this because that's how I do it in that game - GW2 could change before release but I doubt it will. So, how is it lazy if the devs give you multiple options to acquire these things?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
I'd gotten wrapped up in a few of the other sub conversations... but thank you for being on topic.
I'd like to point out that an Asian themed art style is only a problem if it is done poorly, and paying to unlock classes is a pain only if you can't unlock them individually in the game itself by playing the game.
I wouldn't mind an example of your #5 point though.
I have never played an RPG (including Elder Scrolls and Baldurs Gate franchises besides MMOs) where at some point inventory space didn't become an issue. Inventory management is a core part of playing these types of games. I have never payed real money to increase my inventory space. Now, I haven't played every f2p MMORPG out there, but I have played Lotro, STO, and CoH. Heck, STO has a replicator you can drop loot into for credits, so inventory space should NEVER be an issue in that game.
Inventory space is just another fluff item for hoarders, just as shiney costume pieces are fluff for clothes horses, and character slots are fluff for altaholics. Play the games you enjoy. They will all get some of your money some way. Lets face it, MMOs are some of the cheapest entertainment for the dollar you will ever find. They are all bargains unless you either don't play them or get really, really stupid in the cash shop.
It's hard to say what "sure signs" there would be that a particular title wouldn't be something I'm interested in- for the most part I really have to play the game to make that decision. Some things in particular that are huge turn offs for me:
As I said, STO is one of the better examples of a well managed cash shop. The convenience stuff is there for convenience, not because it is nescesary to enjoy the game.
But yea, I do play MMOs specifically so I can hoard and gamble without spending real space and money.
That is a statement. Not a question. Learn the diffrence.
When they show signs that they want to release a game when it is ready, instead of rushing it and then having to delay it because the game isn't... like some of the upcoming ones have done >.>
I dropped the proposition ("What are...") because I wasn't sure how much space I had for a topic. My first time posting on these forums.
Also, big ups for staying on topic... bro.
If you're going to be a grammar troll you should probably point out that the topic was a fragment, and then follow that up by incorrectly using a semicolon.
Seriously, did you not understand what he was saying? Lighten up.
LOTRO sells bag space and updates their content pretty regularly.
Well, I think it's about perspective. Not all freemium games handle the cash shops the same way, and it's hard to lump them all together. But generally speaking, they give you enough access to play the game well enough with the hopes that you'll purchase, on an a la carte basis, the other features that you find valuable. Bag space is a pretty obvious one here, along with the other standards (assorted time savers, cosmetics, etc.). I don't really see how it is sad or a trope, other than the fact that it's a reasonably non-obtrusive way to let people sample the product while still offering value for cash shop purchases, if they go that route, since it's not really a requirement to play the game - just forego the vendor loot.
As far as only selling cosmetics goes, I'm not really sure when that's been proven. Unless you're talking about cosmetics in a cash shop on top of a subscription model (TERA, EVE) or selling hats in TF2 five years after its original release, I can't think of any game that only has cosmetic items in the cash shop. I strongly suspect that if anyone did try it, it wouldn't work out, but that's just my guess. There's too little room for repeat buyers like with XP boosters or whatnot.
Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a subscription fee.
But lets look at GW2 as an example.
You start with a 20 space backpack. Additionally you can add 4 other bags of up to 20 spaces each. So that is 100 spaces. with no money invested.
You can then pay to unlock 3 more bag slots for $5 each..
So for $15, which is basically a monthly fee, you have your character with an additional 60 potential slots, if you need it.
Considering you can salvage weapons, armor and other items to obtain crafting materials and those crafting materials can be sent instantly to your crafting materials bank storage panel and that you can additionally list items in the AH from everywhere (each opens a slot in your bag), simply following your general rule wouldn't be that good IMO.
Picture of the account vault depicting the crafting materials pane:
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Alrighty, so I'm just gonna go ahead and call it right now. WoW is going to have tokens available in MoP that let people get a second shake at raid boss loot (basic y/n choice, consumes one token for another roll at the loot table), and those are already confirmed. My prediction is that they'll sell additional tokens via the blizzard store. People may call that pay to win, but all they're really winning is the oppurtunity to run that raid instance less by using a bunch of tokens for double loot. Not exactly innovative... still preferable to charging money for inventory space.
Also, most MMO game engines are so rich that they can support entire other games in them with little to no additional programming (art assets though, those are costly). I mean... good lord, I would pay for a poker table with a magically ensorcelled imp that deals the cards. I would pay real money for that. Why not sell additional minigames?
Like how WoW is implementing pet battles so they can make a bit of extra money selling pets in their store.
Also, player and guild housing. Selling cosmetic upgrades for that?
And costumes in DCUO? I probably would have plunked down $100 for account wide costume unlocks if their selection was worth a shot. I think the way they managed the costumes was about the ONLY thing that DCUO got right.
Now, that is a 5 minute brainstorming session. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE COSMETIC AND CONVENIENCE. All of them. Yes, one or two of them spread into the grey area, but you already admitted that selling inventory space spills over into that grey area (even if you did qualify it with "if you've already payed for the game"). The people making these games are getting paid a good salary, and they are getting paid that salary to pump out a game worth playing, and they have years to plan it out. I am still asserting that with YEARS to plan it out, they should be able to come up other things to sell besides inventory space.
This speaks to the core compulsion cycle that a lot of developers don't seem to grasp.
Just to double check... are you asserting that they couldn't have figured out something better to sell BESIDES inventory space that would not have been equally as profitable and less intrusive?
I appreciate the effort you put into that, and it does sound like a very feature rich system. Even so I still firmly beleive that them selling inventory space reeks of laziness. I get that they have to subsidize their servers, but what I'm saying is that they could have basically picked just about any other thing to sell me, and slaughtered that sacred cow for the sole purpose of proving that they are the quality MMO they say they are and don't need to rely on such base tactics of monetization.