I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
Yeah I have to say I have a similiar take. Advancement is advancement. Doesnt' matter to me if it's levels or points in skills or actual attainment of skills, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Whether it is levels, skill points, or stat points on gear, progression is pretty much the same & linear in most games. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. A dog by any other name is still a dog
Wait, perhaps you still don't get it, let's provide an example.
Game 1: Every level you gain +1 strength bonus that has the fortunate biproduct of increasing your melee damage.
Game 2: No levels, but a class system. In this case we choose a melee class which gains stat points through experience in which you apply to stats, we choose str +1 because it will increase our base melee damage for our hypothetical melee class
Game 3: No levels no classes! But the content provides you with gear at appropriate times. At the end of one of these content runs we gain a cheat piece of awesome str +1, which therefore increases your base melee damage which allows you to tackle the next content run which has a head band of uberness str +1.
Game 4: No levels no classes! You choose your own skill builds. For our hypothetical melee class we pick the skill line that focuses on melee damage, the first tier of skills contain a passive buff of +1 str which in turn increases our base melee damage.
Do you notice a pattern? The job of the game ruleset team is to make the progression either extremely transparent, or completely hidden, but in the end you get the same result in one form or another.
Edit: Don't get it twisted. I have no qualms with the systems in place, some are pretty creative, but to praise one and bash another when in the end you get the same result seems quite silly.
This is where TSW differs from your number 4. Which is the only number pertaining to this discussion. There is no melee stat, or ranged stat or magic stat.
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?
Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal. Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?
Exactly! You are advancing your character whatever you want to call it.
Why is it that only threads that discuss stuff that has been dicusses a million times already grow dozen long?
The game isn't leve-less 100%, but no mmorpg with progression is truly level-less. Period.
QFT.
Any game where there is any numberical progression; be it skill points, acility score increases, or traditional levels; can be said to have levels. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. Really, it's OK. It doesn't mean TSW is some wow-clone or something. It just means the game has a sort of leveling system. And a rather nicely designed one (even if it's not really what I wanted to see)
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Have you considerd the possibility that the number of skill points you gain is your level?
After all, EVE is a "skill-based, levelless" game and they've been referring to themselves as a "1.4 million sp pilot" or whatever for years.
I don't care one way or the other. Doesn't bother me if a game has levels and does nothing for me if a game doesn't. Besides levels or no levels your chararacter still advances via itemization and gaining skill points. Which pretty much seems just like leveling to me but whatever works for people.
Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play with
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Have you considerd the possibility that the number of skill points you gain is your level?
Yes I have. Then I realized that would mean there are 192 levels!? Then I thought about it and noticed , I flat out don't need to fill all the skills to be able to compete. In mmos with levels either you are level cap or you are nothing.
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Yes I have. Then I realized that would mean there are 192 levels!? Then I thought about it and noticed , I flat out don't need to fill all the skills to be able to compete. In mmos with levels either you are level cap or you are nothing.
Bit of a broad generalization. I can understand why you feel that way, but you are basing ALL level-based games off of a model like (for instance) WoW's. Not all games are like that. I again reference EVE, whose players use skill point amounts to equate to levels. Someone with a smaller amount of skill points than someone else could very well be a much more powerful player than someone with more, if he spent them better or was competing in specific areas.
The point I was trying to make is that if there's any sort of prgression tiering, it's a level. Whether you have 10, 80, or 800000000, it's the same thing.
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
yup and like I said this sort of progression in a MMO is good and gives players sense of "acomplishment" but overall it's not very differn't from level based systems. Here is a quote from TSW dev's
"A new player’s experience is a bit more restricted. The players are free to go wherever they want from the beginning, but they will most likely get their ass handed to them in the more difficult zones. They can fight, and damage most things, but they will find themselves glancing a lot (glancing = bad hit / low damage). You can tell if a monster is lower, equal or higher than you through a coloring system (monsters will be colored green, yellow or red). Your own "power" in this is based off a collection of your skills, and it will indicate your max potential."
Power is basically your "level" now again the system is much more flexable but in the overall grand picture works pretty much the same way... My argument for the OP would be "who wan'ts to play a class restrictive MMO" not a levelless.. although for me if the classes are interesting enough I don't mind that either:P
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You can dress up a pile of crap all you like, but in the end its still a pile of crap.
Theres ways to be creative in changing up "levels" but in the end its still levels. Anything with progression is levels. You dont want levels, go play a sims game. You cant have an RPG w/o levels.
Now to answer your thread title question: I do, I want to play a game with levels. But I want my levels to mean something, when I reach cap I want to feel like I have accomplished something. Mindless quest grinding to cap is meaningless. IMO if you can reach cap in less than 3 months its worthless. Id like to see it take 4-6 months to reach cap. But then again I am an MMORPG player, and not an online rpg player.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.
To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.
Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive.
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
yup and like I said this sort of progression in a MMO is good and gives players sense of "acomplishment" but overall it's not very differn't from level based systems. Here is a quote from TSW dev's
"A new player’s experience is a bit more restricted. The players are free to go wherever they want from the beginning, but they will most likely get their ass handed to them in the more difficult zones. They can fight, and damage most things, but they will find themselves glancing a lot (glancing = bad hit / low damage). You can tell if a monster is lower, equal or higher than you through a coloring system (monsters will be colored green, yellow or red). Your own "power" in this is based off a collection of your skills, and it will indicate your max potential."
Power is basically your "level" now again the system is much more flexable but in the overall grand picture works pretty much the same way... My argument for the OP would be "who wan'ts to play a class restrictive MMO" not a levelless.. although for me if the classes are interesting enough I don't mind that either:P
Power in the since this dev used it corralates to ability collection. Did you notice there was no mention of level in the quote you are siting? Power from synergy of skills =/= levels
Sounds like the defining thing here is really the class-less system, not the fact that it's level-less, because, really, progression is progression. If they used the same system but made you pick a class and only choose to upgrade skills from particular class trees, it'd be effectively the same as any other game with levels (except you wouldn't have a unifying number next to your name).
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.
Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.
Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.
thats a silly comparison considering your progression on stats is completly based on gear in other games its not , and really doesn't have a relavence to the topic at hand
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.
To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.
Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive.
Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.
Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.
thats a silly comparison considering your progression on stats is completly based on gear in other games its not , and really doesn't have a relavence to the topic at hand
Levels give you stats. You get no stat for spending skill points in TSW. This comparision illustrates one point of difference between levels and leveless.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.
To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.
Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive.
Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.
not sure why but you guys really seem to miss the point people are trying to make on basic progression in the overall grand scheme of a game.. but to each their own if it makes you happy it makes you happy
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.
To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.
Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive.
Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.
AhA! I finally understand the disconnect. A game that has levels is not the same as a game that is level-based.
Level-based means that a character's ability to play and succeed in against the game's challenges correlates directly to your level. TSW is not level-based.
Meanwhile, a game with levels just has tiers of progression that mark your experience as a character. But they do not define you as a character, as other factors are more important. In this way, TSW has levels.
Comments
I do.
I find myself confused like a hamster in a food-less maze without levels. I guess it's kind of a "How do I know if I am ready?" thing.
Yeah I have to say I have a similiar take. Advancement is advancement. Doesnt' matter to me if it's levels or points in skills or actual attainment of skills, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is where TSW differs from your number 4. Which is the only number pertaining to this discussion. There is no melee stat, or ranged stat or magic stat.
I like this. And going to try tsw
Pretty much this... Haven't we had this discussion several times already? Linear progression is linear progression... It doesn't matter if it's based on a number or skill or equipment. The thing is nothing is wrong with this especially in online games. If it didn't have linear progression then it would trivialize content. Right now you can't start the game and go right from starter city to savage coast and live or be able to complete quests because you will not be strong enough to fight creatures there because there hp is based on the tiered gear stats.. System is nice and is fun but really isn't a whole lot different than a level based game you just get more options to play withI angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Exactly! You are advancing your character whatever you want to call it.
Why is it that only threads that discuss stuff that has been dicusses a million times already grow dozen long?
The game isn't leve-less 100%, but no mmorpg with progression is truly level-less. Period.
TSW has progression, it's just based on gear.
They didn't change anything.
QFT.
Any game where there is any numberical progression; be it skill points, acility score increases, or traditional levels; can be said to have levels. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. Really, it's OK. It doesn't mean TSW is some wow-clone or something. It just means the game has a sort of leveling system. And a rather nicely designed one (even if it's not really what I wanted to see)
In games with levels you can move on to higher zones and live simply based on the number next to you portrait , which gives you hp, strength, dex, con, char. ect..
You gain no base stat based on skill point allocation in TSW. You get no gear which raises your "tiered gear stat" either. At it's core, in games with levels, you gain a number when you level, that number is represented by the number next to your protrait, your level.
Have you considerd the possibility that the number of skill points you gain is your level?
After all, EVE is a "skill-based, levelless" game and they've been referring to themselves as a "1.4 million sp pilot" or whatever for years.
Yes I have. Then I realized that would mean there are 192 levels!? Then I thought about it and noticed , I flat out don't need to fill all the skills to be able to compete. In mmos with levels either you are level cap or you are nothing.
Make a brand new character and go to the mobs by the airport or scrap yard. See what happens. Even in the first zone you can see a notable difference in character progression pending on what you're fighting.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Bit of a broad generalization. I can understand why you feel that way, but you are basing ALL level-based games off of a model like (for instance) WoW's. Not all games are like that. I again reference EVE, whose players use skill point amounts to equate to levels. Someone with a smaller amount of skill points than someone else could very well be a much more powerful player than someone with more, if he spent them better or was competing in specific areas.
The point I was trying to make is that if there's any sort of prgression tiering, it's a level. Whether you have 10, 80, or 800000000, it's the same thing.
yup and like I said this sort of progression in a MMO is good and gives players sense of "acomplishment" but overall it's not very differn't from level based systems. Here is a quote from TSW dev's
"A new player’s experience is a bit more restricted. The players are free to go wherever they want from the beginning, but they will most likely get their ass handed to them in the more difficult zones. They can fight, and damage most things, but they will find themselves glancing a lot (glancing = bad hit / low damage). You can tell if a monster is lower, equal or higher than you through a coloring system (monsters will be colored green, yellow or red). Your own "power" in this is based off a collection of your skills, and it will indicate your max potential."
Power is basically your "level" now again the system is much more flexable but in the overall grand picture works pretty much the same way... My argument for the OP would be "who wan'ts to play a class restrictive MMO" not a levelless.. although for me if the classes are interesting enough I don't mind that either:P
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You can dress up a pile of crap all you like, but in the end its still a pile of crap.
Theres ways to be creative in changing up "levels" but in the end its still levels. Anything with progression is levels. You dont want levels, go play a sims game. You cant have an RPG w/o levels.
Now to answer your thread title question: I do, I want to play a game with levels. But I want my levels to mean something, when I reach cap I want to feel like I have accomplished something. Mindless quest grinding to cap is meaningless. IMO if you can reach cap in less than 3 months its worthless. Id like to see it take 4-6 months to reach cap. But then again I am an MMORPG player, and not an online rpg player.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 2 in all weapon skills but nothing into talismans. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities that cost 3 points or less. I find that PvE is tough in the starter area still as I have not put any points into my talismans and my weapon abilities that I chose have no synergy and I cannot fill all my slots even with 2 weapons. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a fragile character and that venturing outside the starter zone is a risk.
I spend the first 50 hours of the game earning SP and AP. I distrubute my SP so that I have 5 in shotgun and Blade and 5 into each talisman. I also put all AP into learning weapon abilities for my 2 chosen weapons and a few selected abilities from other weapons. I also unlock the outer wheel and have a few skills to choose from to really refine my abilities. I find that PvE is now easy in the starter area still and I am able to venture into tougher area's and still manage to survive. I have a very nice DPS build and can hold my onw solo or in a group. After 50 hours I still feel like I have a strong character and that venturing outside the starter zone is the natural progression for me.
To me, this shows that the system is not level based system because you are free to put points wherever you want and can also not 'advance' if you do not spend your points wisely.
Also for me a level based system means that when you reach max level you can sit in a starter area and not be damaged, even if you unequip everything. Do that in TSW and you are not going to survive.
Power in the since this dev used it corralates to ability collection. Did you notice there was no mention of level in the quote you are siting? Power from synergy of skills =/= levels
Sounds like the defining thing here is really the class-less system, not the fact that it's level-less, because, really, progression is progression. If they used the same system but made you pick a class and only choose to upgrade skills from particular class trees, it'd be effectively the same as any other game with levels (except you wouldn't have a unifying number next to your name).
Take a character who has 10 in all skills, weapons and abilities and equip starter equipment and see what happens then.
Or better yet, take a maxed out naked TSW character to the starter area and cpmpare results when you do the same in say WOW or any other level based game. There is a big difference.
thats a silly comparison considering your progression on stats is completly based on gear in other games its not , and really doesn't have a relavence to the topic at hand
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Nice post. This is hard to understand if you have never played a leveless mmo.
Levels give you stats. You get no stat for spending skill points in TSW. This comparision illustrates one point of difference between levels and leveless.
not sure why but you guys really seem to miss the point people are trying to make on basic progression in the overall grand scheme of a game.. but to each their own if it makes you happy it makes you happy
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
AhA! I finally understand the disconnect. A game that has levels is not the same as a game that is level-based.
Level-based means that a character's ability to play and succeed in against the game's challenges correlates directly to your level. TSW is not level-based.
Meanwhile, a game with levels just has tiers of progression that mark your experience as a character. But they do not define you as a character, as other factors are more important. In this way, TSW has levels.