250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG
level 60 - WoW
All the same in the end.
Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression
Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.
This is a flasehood I see echoed far too often on this site. SWG was known as one of the best skill based games around at one time and I assure you that the amount of skill points you had certainly did dictate where you were able to go and what you were able to do.
I assure you walking off a ship with a good blaster and a few points wouldn't have you killing rancors any quicker than alot of the level based games that you seem to think playh so differently.
Levels seem to be a far more simplisitc way of gating content but make no mistake every game out there does it unless you can tell us of some game where you can fight and beat the best baddies around without reaching a certain skill level I'm going to have to call that assertion a myth.
Or try training just the skills to fly a Battleship and run into a L4 mission w/o also training all the appropriate weapon, shield/hull, movement, targetting, etc. skills.
Tolkien started knocking ideas for his epic saga and world of Middle Earth when he was in his college years, that doesn't mean that he did 30 years about writing his Lord of the Rings trilogy
Well to my mind actually it does, if he had ideas of Middle Earth in college then that is when it started. The idea is the start of the journey, not when you actually put pen to paper and write. The writing part is the 'craft', it's transferring the idea in a way that can be understood by your intended audience.
Well, People can juggle many ideas and concepts, of which some may lie to rest for dozens of years and many that will never result in any product. Tolkien stated himself iirc that he wrote the trilogy in 9 years, so he clearly disconnects his daydreaming concepts and playing around with folklore themes in his early years from the actual process of writing. Just like the production and development of a game, actually.
Anyway, this is all kinda moot and off on a tangent. Actual production and realisation of TSW - in much the same way as when actual writing starts and isn't just one of many ideas - started in 2006.
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
True. Classless and level-less MMO's in the style of TSW have been done before, although they're few.
That still doesn't negate the fact that they don't have the fixed, rigid class systems or (character based) level systems as seen in most MMO's.
Seems like TSW isn't the MMO you're looking for. Time to move on, maybe? Maybe even out of the MMO genre, since all MMO's use some form of progression and roles which you're not looking for apparently?
In other words it doesn't have a tradtional level or class system. I am fine with that terminology. Skyrim didn't have a traditional class system, that is what they stated. It still has a class system, but points get assigned based on how you decide to play. ALl that seems to have happened with TSW is they have put the level and class system out of sight of the user, that to me is different from making a classless/leveless game. The only way I can see of achieving that is to have individual unique progression.
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
True. Classless and level-less MMO's in the style of TSW have been done before, although they're few.
That still doesn't negate the fact that they don't have the fixed, rigid class systems or (character based) level systems as seen in most MMO's.
Seems like TSW isn't the MMO you're looking for. Time to move on, maybe? Maybe even out of the MMO genre, since all MMO's use some form of progression and roles which you're not looking for apparently?
In other words it doesn't have a tradtional level or class system. I am fine with that terminology. Skyrim didn't have a traditional class system, that is what they stated. It still has a class system, but points get assigned based on how you decide to play. ALl that seems to have happened with TSW is they have put the level and class system out of sight of the user, that to me is different from making a classless/leveless game. The only way I can see of achieving that is to have individual unique progression.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
Well, People can juggle many ideas and concepts, of which some may lie to rest for dozens of years and many that will never result in any product. Tolkien stated himself iirc that he wrote the trilogy in 9 years, so he clearly disconnects his daydreaming concepts and playing around with folklore themes in his early years from the actual process of writing. Just like the production and development of a game, actually.
Anyway, this is all kinda moot and off on a tangent. Actual production and realisation of TSW - in much the same way as when actual writing starts and isn't just one of many ideas - started in 2006.
It took him 9 years to write. That is getting the words down on paper in a form that can be published. That to me is the craft of writing. But that isn't what being a writer is necessarily about. Anybody can learn the craft of writing, but it's those ideas that differentiate the actual writer from just somebody that can write. He didn't throw away the idea of Middle Earth that he had in his college years, he expanded on it.
Funcom were thinking of a Lovecraft inspired game in 2002, fair enough TSW in its present incarnation didn't start development until 2006. But the idea has been knocking around within the walls of Funcom considerably longer than when they took the executive decision to make the game.
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
.....
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
9 dungeons with 3 difficulties
9 (?) Lairs with summonable Lair bosses (3+1?)
Region bosses (9+?)
Minigames
Persistant PvP
You also have elements that keeps the game interesting like the horizontal progression through abilities and the gear customization for the builds you create. The assorted builds you can create with this is useful for nightmare-mode dungeons and for PvP.
....
Correction, you are dead wrong. .....
My two cents
It sounds like you think I dislike the game and dislike the (end)game... I actually got the lifetime subscription.
Lucky sob! :P How much was it Black?
200€ + 50€ for the game (or about 20% less than I pay each year to own a TV in Norway. ).
I believe you find it funny that I believe the game has about 200* hours quest content? It comes down to maybe 1.25€/hour of quest content
Compare it to Diablo 3 which I played through in a bit less than 20* hours and it cost me 60€ or 3€/hour of quest content. TSW is a steal.
Anyway, I am guessing I am going to repeat some of it and do quite a few dungeon runs, twiddle with builds, do lair runs, summon lair bosses, kill region bosses and so on. I might even try some of the investigation quests or do some PvP.
Since I usually don't game more than maybe 10 hours a week, Funcom will probably have had time to add another area or two by the time I am done.
Lets make is simple for you. TSW has a class, A class, thats it. EVERYONE is that class. At the end of the day, EVERYONE will be everything that everyone else will be in that single class. In order for there to be a Class system in a game, there has to be MORE than a single class. TO be one and only one makes it a classless system.
As for the Levels it is the same thing, there is but a single level in this game for character leveling. One, and only one. You can't have a leveling system if there is only ONE which everyone starts and ends in. This makes it a leveless game.
It does however have progression, character progression in skills. You do progess in skill level. So this is a skill based game.
Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly what they have advertised this game as. A Classless, Leveless, Skill based MMO.
Everybody isn't the same class. Class refers to the job or profession of a character. The role of a class is normally defined. Here what people can define what sort of profession they want to fit into whatever role they want to play. But there is nothing to stop two people having the same class in TSW. They just have to follow the same build.
Skill based progression, is a form of level based progression just utilising skills. You don't start with every skill available.
So overall this game isn't classless and isn't leveless. It's offers no innovation just the same old crap done a different way.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isnt it safe to say that everyone, eventually, will complete the skill wheel in its entirety? And if they complete it, they are in fact able to fill any role that is needed in any situation? Everyone can at that point be said to be of every role, or every class as you put it. So how can you say they are not of the same class if they are in fact able to be everything at any time they wish?
I see where you are coming from, assuming that the build people chose for any given moment would be thier class, but isn't that being just a bit naive? Assuming that if a person is walking around with a hammer in thier hands that they are a tank? You would be wrong if you thought that of my character with a hammer out.
In the end though, I would have to agree with the other dude here. If everyone can and will eventually be everything, all inclusive, then there isnt a class system at all. There may be a role system, as in you 'fill a role' in a team, but there are no defined 'classes' at all in TSW. Oh, there are definaed Decks in TSW, maybe thats what has you confused and thinking there are classes, those aren't classes though, those are recommended builds that perform a certain role.
Yeah there is no traditonal class system in the case of you choose a arche-type that has pre-set abilties that you cann't change or mix with other arche-types abilites. There is a role system as well as a form of class system in that each character in a group will proform certian roles in the group to differeing degrees, while your weapon that you use to access powers (like swords, axes, mystic focuss.) in ways classify what active powers you can use. To me this would actually qualify as a class-less system as no arch-type or defined factors actually completely bar you from using mixing or learning abilities in the game, but the fact that you need a item to utilize some of the active or more powerful abilites in some parts of the wheel give new players a guide of sorts.
Where level-less is concerned since none of the gear actually has any kind of level requirement, other than allocaating points into the corrosponding skill to use the item correctly as well as effectively, and that the requirement for most instances or such is more about being able to use gear of a certain quality over just being a certain level alone you can call it level-less. The reason is that if you build both your abilities as well as focusing on improving the quality of gear that you use by focusing on spending points only in those places alone. than the point at which two players can enter certain content will be quite large as one is wasteing effort while the other is not. In this way it is allocation an gear based on what you can do, not merely level based, and what you choose to build your character as has vastly more impact on what you can do than merely what level you are comparitively. The system they use for guaging how difficult a mob is or instance is more of a guide-line to allow players to have infomation on what to expect difficulty wise in the instance or content, over being a bar telling them "You must be this tall to ride" as most level-based content are done.
In the end really it is really a matter of how you would define a class or level system, and a class-less as well as Level-less system, but in the martket right now you have class/level game designs (like wow, rift, L2, gw2) as well as class-less/level-less games (like mo, df, and such.). With Tsw being much more like the level-less/class-less games in how it works as well as functions, and even design, than it does with level/class based games overall.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
Going to have to agree with this. It's not that we don't understand the ideology, premise, or base line of the game... it's that there is a distinct disconnection from player -> character -> combat -> reward. The reason why I disliked my experience in the game is that it feels like a third person shooter, trying to emulate a dungeon crawler, trying to emulate a MMO... and exceedingly failing on all fronts. That is my personal opinion though.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
Going to have to agree with this. It's not that we don't understand the ideology, premise, or base line of the game... it's that there is a distinct disconnection from player -> character -> combat -> reward. The reason why I disliked my experience in the game is that it feels like a third person shooter, trying to emulate a dungeon crawler, trying to emulate a MMO... and exceedingly failing on all fronts. That is my personal opinion though.
In all fairness Wicked edited the post that I responded to. The post saying "I thought progression would be more individual." I feel my response was spot on for the post that wicked edited out.
You will never fully understand the combat system in this game. Atleast not for a very very long time. Each time you think you have the answer, it gets deeper. You'll always have something to learn, and that's great imo.
but yeah elitist can be pricks in any game I don't like them either.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
Going to have to agree with this. It's not that we don't understand the ideology, premise, or base line of the game... it's that there is a distinct disconnection from player -> character -> combat -> reward. The reason why I disliked my experience in the game is that it feels like a third person shooter, trying to emulate a dungeon crawler, trying to emulate a MMO... and exceedingly failing on all fronts. That is my personal opinion though.
In all fairness Wicked edited the post that I responded to. The post saying "I thought progression would be more individual." I feel my response was spot on for the post that wicked edited out.
You will never fully understand the combat system in this game. Atleast not for a very very long time. Each time you think you have the answer, it gets deeper. You'll always have something to learn, and that's great imo.
but yeah elitist can be pricks in any game I don't like them either.
I like a definable system that I can memorized... working in the software development industry, wife, mortgage, bills, etc, yard work I don't exactly get a lot of time to sit down and spreadsheet a game anymore. So, consistancy and "keep it simple stupid" game development is right for me.
I don't think the game can be defined as shit, but it definately requires much more involvement than I can be bothered to be consumed by.
Then again I come from a generation where "the holy trinity" was a standard.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
Oh please, give me a break.
It's not that this game is somehow to deep for people it's that a large number of people don't have their heads shoved so far up the devs asses they can see that what the devs are saying and whats in game doesn't always jive with each other.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
Going to have to agree with this. It's not that we don't understand the ideology, premise, or base line of the game... it's that there is a distinct disconnection from player -> character -> combat -> reward. The reason why I disliked my experience in the game is that it feels like a third person shooter, trying to emulate a dungeon crawler, trying to emulate a MMO... and exceedingly failing on all fronts. That is my personal opinion though.
In all fairness Wicked edited the post that I responded to. The post saying "I thought progression would be more individual." I feel my response was spot on for the post that wicked edited out.
You will never fully understand the combat system in this game. Atleast not for a very very long time. Each time you think you have the answer, it gets deeper. You'll always have something to learn, and that's great imo.
but yeah elitist can be pricks in any game I don't like them either.
I like a definable system that I can memorized... working in the software development industry, wife, mortgage, bills, etc, yard work I don't exactly get a lot of time to sit down and spreadsheet a game anymore. So, consistancy and "keep it simple stupid" game development is right for me.
I don't think the game can be defined as shit, but it definately requires much more involvement than I can be bothered to be consumed by.
Then again I come from a generation where "the holy trinity" was a standard.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isnt it safe to say that everyone, eventually, will complete the skill wheel in its entirety? And if they complete it, they are in fact able to fill any role that is needed in any situation? Everyone can at that point be said to be of every role, or every class as you put it. So how can you say they are not of the same class if they are in fact able to be everything at any time they wish?
I see where you are coming from, assuming that the build people chose for any given moment would be thier class, but isn't that being just a bit naive? Assuming that if a person is walking around with a hammer in thier hands that they are a tank? You would be wrong if you thought that of my character with a hammer out.
In the end though, I would have to agree with the other dude here. If everyone can and will eventually be everything, all inclusive, then there isnt a class system at all. There may be a role system, as in you 'fill a role' in a team, but there are no defined 'classes' at all in TSW. Oh, there are definaed Decks in TSW, maybe thats what has you confused and thinking there are classes, those aren't classes though, those are recommended builds that perform a certain role.
I think a bit naive to think optimum builds aren't going to happen. In other words classes will exist because certain skills will be overpowered, balance will not be quite spot on etc etc. So if you adopt say the traditional role of a tank or healer, who isn't to say their will be a specific optimal setup that everybody in the game will know or will be advised to adopt. Hence classes will be created to fullfill the various roles even if they don't exist are aren't defined by the game.
If people have the chance to be the same to my mind you have classes. Now you may have hybrid roles in this game, which is slightly on the different side, even hybrid classes. But the pure evolution of the game and how it is constructed means you will end up with classes.
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
i can understand your point of view but I don't see how you can really can deny the overall game plays out very similar to any other MMO. It has set structured zones that are setup for differn't power "levels" . The story and progression are setup in a linear fashion much like any other "level" based MMO. All I'm trying to put out their is yes the skill system is a nice change of pace from your standard level system but the overall game design is set up to progress in a linear fashion. If you expect something like skyrim or something where you really don't have ot follow any sort of set path unless you want to follow the main story you are going to be dissapointed by this game.. To me I'm fine with the setup but people seem to be making the entire game out to be so differn't and overall it really isn't. But the setting is nice and moving away from standard quest hubs "within zones" is also a nice change of pace which is why I enjoy the game.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
i can understand your point of view but I don't see how you can really can deny the overall game plays out very similar to any other MMO. It has set structured zones that are setup for differn't power "levels" . The story and progression are setup in a linear fashion much like any other "level" based MMO. All I'm trying to put out their is yes the skill system is a nice change of pace from your standard level system but the overall game design is set up to progress in a linear fashion. If you expect something like skyrim or something where you really don't have ot follow any sort of set path unless you want to follow the main story you are going to be dissapointed by this game.. To me I'm fine with the setup but people seem to be making the entire game out to be so differn't and overall it really isn't. But the setting is nice and moving away from standard quest hubs "within zones" is also a nice change of pace which is why I enjoy the game.
What i'm trying to say is that this is a battle of semantics. In the thread about Rift and GW2 in general, there's already a discussion if GW2's servers in wvwvw are the same has factions. To some they are, to some they're not.
In other mmo's, you can find description that says "level = x" and "class = x". This doesn't exist in TSW. Therefore, there are no levels or classes.
However, the difinition of what one is changes from person to person. To me, the game's class-less and has hidden levels because, has you say, there's content locks and progression. But, it's also not the same exact same to me, since my character doesn't have stats.
We all agree there's progression in the game. What matters is that to some, th progression system different enough to not be the same has levels, to some it is.
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
i can understand your point of view but I don't see how you can really can deny the overall game plays out very similar to any other MMO. It has set structured zones that are setup for differn't power "levels" . The story and progression are setup in a linear fashion much like any other "level" based MMO. All I'm trying to put out their is yes the skill system is a nice change of pace from your standard level system but the overall game design is set up to progress in a linear fashion. If you expect something like skyrim or something where you really don't have ot follow any sort of set path unless you want to follow the main story you are going to be dissapointed by this game.. To me I'm fine with the setup but people seem to be making the entire game out to be so differn't and overall it really isn't. But the setting is nice and moving away from standard quest hubs "within zones" is also a nice change of pace which is why I enjoy the game.
What i'm trying to say is that this is a battle of semantics. In the thread about Rift and GW2 in general, there's already a discussion if GW2's servers in wvwvw are the same has factions. To some they are, to some they're not.
In other mmo's, you can find description that says "level = x" and "class = x". This doesn't exist in TSW. Therefore, there are no levels or classes.
However, the difinition of what one is changes from person to person. To me, the game's class-less and has hidden levels because, has you say, there's content locks and progression. But, it's also not the same exact same to me, since my character doesn't have stats.
We all agree there's progression in the game. What matters is that to some, th progression system different enough to not be the same has levels, to some it is.
you didn't really comment on the point of my post at all so..... anyway.. moving on.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Levels or no levels is not that important, if the game is really good. But if you base your definition of level system with games that doesn't use these in a good way, you might think the traditional level system is the problem.
What you see in the ..dare I say it, Wowified mmo trend, is that levels are just something to be done with and then replaced with gear hunting. If I mention games that uses the level system much better I will be accused on fanboi, so I will just say there are games that shows how the traditional level system works nicely, where there is more focus on the adventure you find and levelling is something that comes along. Also my favorite, I virtually endless levelling system (arr feck it, Everquest aa system), which is basically an alternaive xp system running along with the traditional one, earning you what in other games would be called talents.
If I were to make a new game I would definately go for an advanced skill based system, but that doesn't mean I think traditional level systems are useless, I just find I could make some more logical mechanics with a skill based system (ex. Why should ...a mage be able to cast fireball at lvl x without practising, and any lvl 60 can stand inactive and take hits from a goblin for an hour without dying.. etc).
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
Well I might as well say Skyrim is classless then. I don't pick a specific class I have a host of skills I level up depending on my playstyle. I then decide on where to spend perks to enhance my playstyle. But they didn't say Skyrim was classless, they said Skyrim didn't have traditional classes. Which in essence means although I don't assign a specific class or am forced to pick a specific class, I can within the game create a class. Skyrim isn't classless, Bethesda don't call it a classless game, yet from the interpretations I am hearing here I would be well within my rights to state Skyrim is a classless game.
Just because you don't have a number for levels, or a ping to say you have leveled up, still means in order to unlock things you have to have a progression of some variety. If you have no progression you have no levels. If everything is available to you from the start that is leveless. If you can go anywhere do anything, equip anything, without the need to raise any sort of attribute. Then it has no levels. If you have to raise any attribute, you have to 'unlock' anything within the game there is some sort of level based progression going on. Again it may not have traditional levels, but it isn't leveless.
All people seem to be saying is compared to the traditional classes and levels it's different. Which by default makes it classless and leveless. Complete tosh.
At this point the discussion has become a complete and utter rehash of the same arguments over and over and over and, oh, did I say, over again? Which renders it kinda meaningless.
At this point everyone who isn't braindead (eaten by zombies or facepalm stomping your head repeatedly on the table too many times will do that) gets exactly what the arguments of the others are, and what their stance is. Also it's clear that everyone will stick to their viewpoint, which in the end is for 90% merely a question how people personally define stuff.
Since all has been said and everyone's stance is clear and firm, this seems to lead to the same arguments getting beaten like a dead horse into a bloody pulp, and then some.
Has this 'keep repeating the same stuff over and over again even while everyone already knows everyeone else's viewpoint' any merit left, or do people just like to hear themselves repeat stuff over and over again?
I haven't seen one single new argument in pages now. Come on, people, the dead horse isn't even there anymore to beat, you've massacred it until its innards are spread all around
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
i can understand your point of view but I don't see how you can really can deny the overall game plays out very similar to any other MMO. It has set structured zones that are setup for differn't power "levels" . The story and progression are setup in a linear fashion much like any other "level" based MMO. All I'm trying to put out their is yes the skill system is a nice change of pace from your standard level system but the overall game design is set up to progress in a linear fashion. If you expect something like skyrim or something where you really don't have ot follow any sort of set path unless you want to follow the main story you are going to be dissapointed by this game.. To me I'm fine with the setup but people seem to be making the entire game out to be so differn't and overall it really isn't. But the setting is nice and moving away from standard quest hubs "within zones" is also a nice change of pace which is why I enjoy the game.
What i'm trying to say is that this is a battle of semantics. In the thread about Rift and GW2 in general, there's already a discussion if GW2's servers in wvwvw are the same has factions. To some they are, to some they're not.
In other mmo's, you can find description that says "level = x" and "class = x". This doesn't exist in TSW. Therefore, there are no levels or classes.
However, the difinition of what one is changes from person to person. To me, the game's class-less and has hidden levels because, has you say, there's content locks and progression. But, it's also not the same exact same to me, since my character doesn't have stats.
We all agree there's progression in the game. What matters is that to some, th progression system different enough to not be the same has levels, to some it is.
you didn't really comment on the point of my post at all so..... anyway.. moving on.
You can skip zones if you have the chops, Unlike a level game where you just wont be able to hit anything. There are no "hard content locks."
You don't have to do the story, and just rome if you like plenty of non linear stuff out there
You can skip zones if you have the chops, Unlike a level game where you just wont be able to hit anything. There are no "hard content locks."
You don't have to do the story, and just rome if you like plenty of non linear stuff out there
and you CAN do this in many level based games for example rift I could just PVP my way from level 10-30 then start questing at 30 and just skipped over a huge chunck of the pve content.. my point is just because it's possibly it's still a backass way doesn't mean it's how this game was designed. The developers made it for you to follow a story and the story starts in zone a and you progress's to B then To C and so on. Yes there are hard content locks on the later areas as well
also why would you even want to skip a zone when this game is so story focused i really see no point in doing that
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
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Or try training just the skills to fly a Battleship and run into a L4 mission w/o also training all the appropriate weapon, shield/hull, movement, targetting, etc. skills.
One way trip to your Pod.
Well, People can juggle many ideas and concepts, of which some may lie to rest for dozens of years and many that will never result in any product. Tolkien stated himself iirc that he wrote the trilogy in 9 years, so he clearly disconnects his daydreaming concepts and playing around with folklore themes in his early years from the actual process of writing. Just like the production and development of a game, actually.
Anyway, this is all kinda moot and off on a tangent. Actual production and realisation of TSW - in much the same way as when actual writing starts and isn't just one of many ideas - started in 2006.
In other words it doesn't have a tradtional level or class system. I am fine with that terminology. Skyrim didn't have a traditional class system, that is what they stated. It still has a class system, but points get assigned based on how you decide to play. ALl that seems to have happened with TSW is they have put the level and class system out of sight of the user, that to me is different from making a classless/leveless game. The only way I can see of achieving that is to have individual unique progression.
People don't know enough about the game to understand that your progression is individual. No this game is not for everyone. If someone can not understand that, this game may be too complicated for that person.
It took him 9 years to write. That is getting the words down on paper in a form that can be published. That to me is the craft of writing. But that isn't what being a writer is necessarily about. Anybody can learn the craft of writing, but it's those ideas that differentiate the actual writer from just somebody that can write. He didn't throw away the idea of Middle Earth that he had in his college years, he expanded on it.
Funcom were thinking of a Lovecraft inspired game in 2002, fair enough TSW in its present incarnation didn't start development until 2006. But the idea has been knocking around within the walls of Funcom considerably longer than when they took the executive decision to make the game.
200€ + 50€ for the game (or about 20% less than I pay each year to own a TV in Norway.
).
I believe you find it funny that I believe the game has about 200* hours quest content? It comes down to maybe 1.25€/hour of quest content
Compare it to Diablo 3 which I played through in a bit less than 20* hours and it cost me 60€ or 3€/hour of quest content. TSW is a steal.
Anyway, I am guessing I am going to repeat some of it and do quite a few dungeon runs, twiddle with builds, do lair runs, summon lair bosses, kill region bosses and so on. I might even try some of the investigation quests or do some PvP.
Since I usually don't game more than maybe 10 hours a week, Funcom will probably have had time to add another area or two by the time I am done.
*Both Diablo 3 and TSW has repeatable content.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isnt it safe to say that everyone, eventually, will complete the skill wheel in its entirety? And if they complete it, they are in fact able to fill any role that is needed in any situation? Everyone can at that point be said to be of every role, or every class as you put it. So how can you say they are not of the same class if they are in fact able to be everything at any time they wish?
I see where you are coming from, assuming that the build people chose for any given moment would be thier class, but isn't that being just a bit naive? Assuming that if a person is walking around with a hammer in thier hands that they are a tank? You would be wrong if you thought that of my character with a hammer out.
In the end though, I would have to agree with the other dude here. If everyone can and will eventually be everything, all inclusive, then there isnt a class system at all. There may be a role system, as in you 'fill a role' in a team, but there are no defined 'classes' at all in TSW. Oh, there are definaed Decks in TSW, maybe thats what has you confused and thinking there are classes, those aren't classes though, those are recommended builds that perform a certain role.
Yeah there is no traditonal class system in the case of you choose a arche-type that has pre-set abilties that you cann't change or mix with other arche-types abilites. There is a role system as well as a form of class system in that each character in a group will proform certian roles in the group to differeing degrees, while your weapon that you use to access powers (like swords, axes, mystic focuss.) in ways classify what active powers you can use. To me this would actually qualify as a class-less system as no arch-type or defined factors actually completely bar you from using mixing or learning abilities in the game, but the fact that you need a item to utilize some of the active or more powerful abilites in some parts of the wheel give new players a guide of sorts.
Where level-less is concerned since none of the gear actually has any kind of level requirement, other than allocaating points into the corrosponding skill to use the item correctly as well as effectively, and that the requirement for most instances or such is more about being able to use gear of a certain quality over just being a certain level alone you can call it level-less. The reason is that if you build both your abilities as well as focusing on improving the quality of gear that you use by focusing on spending points only in those places alone. than the point at which two players can enter certain content will be quite large as one is wasteing effort while the other is not. In this way it is allocation an gear based on what you can do, not merely level based, and what you choose to build your character as has vastly more impact on what you can do than merely what level you are comparitively. The system they use for guaging how difficult a mob is or instance is more of a guide-line to allow players to have infomation on what to expect difficulty wise in the instance or content, over being a bar telling them "You must be this tall to ride" as most level-based content are done.
In the end really it is really a matter of how you would define a class or level system, and a class-less as well as Level-less system, but in the martket right now you have class/level game designs (like wow, rift, L2, gw2) as well as class-less/level-less games (like mo, df, and such.). With Tsw being much more like the level-less/class-less games in how it works as well as functions, and even design, than it does with level/class based games overall.
Me.
People understand it just fine. Get over yourself. It is not remotely difficult to grasp or understand.
Christ, there are some serious elitist attitudes with this mmo. Wow...
Gonna be a great community with these folks running around.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Going to have to agree with this. It's not that we don't understand the ideology, premise, or base line of the game... it's that there is a distinct disconnection from player -> character -> combat -> reward. The reason why I disliked my experience in the game is that it feels like a third person shooter, trying to emulate a dungeon crawler, trying to emulate a MMO... and exceedingly failing on all fronts. That is my personal opinion though.
In all fairness Wicked edited the post that I responded to. The post saying "I thought progression would be more individual." I feel my response was spot on for the post that wicked edited out.
You will never fully understand the combat system in this game. Atleast not for a very very long time. Each time you think you have the answer, it gets deeper. You'll always have something to learn, and that's great imo.
but yeah elitist can be pricks in any game I don't like them either.
I like a definable system that I can memorized... working in the software development industry, wife, mortgage, bills, etc, yard work I don't exactly get a lot of time to sit down and spreadsheet a game anymore. So, consistancy and "keep it simple stupid" game development is right for me.
I don't think the game can be defined as shit, but it definately requires much more involvement than I can be bothered to be consumed by.
Then again I come from a generation where "the holy trinity" was a standard.
Oh please, give me a break.
It's not that this game is somehow to deep for people it's that a large number of people don't have their heads shoved so far up the devs asses they can see that what the devs are saying and whats in game doesn't always jive with each other.
I can respect this completely.
I think a bit naive to think optimum builds aren't going to happen. In other words classes will exist because certain skills will be overpowered, balance will not be quite spot on etc etc. So if you adopt say the traditional role of a tank or healer, who isn't to say their will be a specific optimal setup that everybody in the game will know or will be advised to adopt. Hence classes will be created to fullfill the various roles even if they don't exist are aren't defined by the game.
If people have the chance to be the same to my mind you have classes. Now you may have hybrid roles in this game, which is slightly on the different side, even hybrid classes. But the pure evolution of the game and how it is constructed means you will end up with classes.
The funny thing is we're just talking about semantics.
Fallenlord, to you nothing can be level-less or class-less because that's of the way you see it. That's a valid point for you. I disagree because to me, class-less means that i'm not locked out of any role, skill, whatever.
TSW is a game without classes and levels. Why? Because there's no numerical value or description in-game equal to level. It's class-less because there's nothing in-game that says "class x"
If one's definiton changes do to his point of view, fine. I personally look at it has "hidden levels", but if there's no number pointing towards it, there are no levels, simply what i view has the equivalent of it.
i can understand your point of view but I don't see how you can really can deny the overall game plays out very similar to any other MMO. It has set structured zones that are setup for differn't power "levels" . The story and progression are setup in a linear fashion much like any other "level" based MMO. All I'm trying to put out their is yes the skill system is a nice change of pace from your standard level system but the overall game design is set up to progress in a linear fashion. If you expect something like skyrim or something where you really don't have ot follow any sort of set path unless you want to follow the main story you are going to be dissapointed by this game.. To me I'm fine with the setup but people seem to be making the entire game out to be so differn't and overall it really isn't. But the setting is nice and moving away from standard quest hubs "within zones" is also a nice change of pace which is why I enjoy the game.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What i'm trying to say is that this is a battle of semantics. In the thread about Rift and GW2 in general, there's already a discussion if GW2's servers in wvwvw are the same has factions. To some they are, to some they're not.
In other mmo's, you can find description that says "level = x" and "class = x". This doesn't exist in TSW. Therefore, there are no levels or classes.
However, the difinition of what one is changes from person to person. To me, the game's class-less and has hidden levels because, has you say, there's content locks and progression. But, it's also not the same exact same to me, since my character doesn't have stats.
We all agree there's progression in the game. What matters is that to some, th progression system different enough to not be the same has levels, to some it is.
you didn't really comment on the point of my post at all so..... anyway.. moving on.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Levels or no levels is not that important, if the game is really good. But if you base your definition of level system with games that doesn't use these in a good way, you might think the traditional level system is the problem.
What you see in the ..dare I say it, Wowified mmo trend, is that levels are just something to be done with and then replaced with gear hunting. If I mention games that uses the level system much better I will be accused on fanboi, so I will just say there are games that shows how the traditional level system works nicely, where there is more focus on the adventure you find and levelling is something that comes along. Also my favorite, I virtually endless levelling system (arr feck it, Everquest aa system), which is basically an alternaive xp system running along with the traditional one, earning you what in other games would be called talents.
If I were to make a new game I would definately go for an advanced skill based system, but that doesn't mean I think traditional level systems are useless, I just find I could make some more logical mechanics with a skill based system (ex. Why should ...a mage be able to cast fireball at lvl x without practising, and any lvl 60 can stand inactive and take hits from a goblin for an hour without dying.. etc).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Well I might as well say Skyrim is classless then. I don't pick a specific class I have a host of skills I level up depending on my playstyle. I then decide on where to spend perks to enhance my playstyle. But they didn't say Skyrim was classless, they said Skyrim didn't have traditional classes. Which in essence means although I don't assign a specific class or am forced to pick a specific class, I can within the game create a class. Skyrim isn't classless, Bethesda don't call it a classless game, yet from the interpretations I am hearing here I would be well within my rights to state Skyrim is a classless game.
Just because you don't have a number for levels, or a ping to say you have leveled up, still means in order to unlock things you have to have a progression of some variety. If you have no progression you have no levels. If everything is available to you from the start that is leveless. If you can go anywhere do anything, equip anything, without the need to raise any sort of attribute. Then it has no levels. If you have to raise any attribute, you have to 'unlock' anything within the game there is some sort of level based progression going on. Again it may not have traditional levels, but it isn't leveless.
All people seem to be saying is compared to the traditional classes and levels it's different. Which by default makes it classless and leveless. Complete tosh.
At this point the discussion has become a complete and utter rehash of the same arguments over and over and over and, oh, did I say, over again? Which renders it kinda meaningless.
At this point everyone who isn't braindead (eaten by zombies or facepalm stomping your head repeatedly on the table too many times will do that) gets exactly what the arguments of the others are, and what their stance is. Also it's clear that everyone will stick to their viewpoint, which in the end is for 90% merely a question how people personally define stuff.
Since all has been said and everyone's stance is clear and firm, this seems to lead to the same arguments getting beaten like a dead horse into a bloody pulp, and then some.
Has this 'keep repeating the same stuff over and over again even while everyone already knows everyeone else's viewpoint' any merit left, or do people just like to hear themselves repeat stuff over and over again?
I haven't seen one single new argument in pages now. Come on, people, the dead horse isn't even there anymore to beat, you've massacred it until its innards are spread all around
You can skip zones if you have the chops, Unlike a level game where you just wont be able to hit anything. There are no "hard content locks."
You don't have to do the story, and just rome if you like plenty of non linear stuff out there
and you CAN do this in many level based games for example rift I could just PVP my way from level 10-30 then start questing at 30 and just skipped over a huge chunck of the pve content.. my point is just because it's possibly it's still a backass way doesn't mean it's how this game was designed. The developers made it for you to follow a story and the story starts in zone a and you progress's to B then To C and so on. Yes there are hard content locks on the later areas as well
also why would you even want to skip a zone when this game is so story focused i really see no point in doing that
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg