Ok... Ste2000, let me just say that I see Sigil avoiding a lot of issues like crowd control, haste, slows, equal access to content, pet balance and travel which where hot issues in EQ. The Sigil answer seems to be if it is hard do, lets not do it.
Totally false. Where did you get that idea?
I am not looking for a "fixed" EQ. But Sigil is making a dull, dumb game trying to avoid the problems that plagued EQ.
Care to elaborate? I can call you dumb and dull too, but without explanation it sounds dull and dumb to say that.
Sorry, but I am not impressed.... This advanced encounter system sounds totally stupid.
Again, care to elaborate what is stupid about it?
The class break down is dull.
Eh? I found the classes to be extremely interesting, again, care to elaborate about what is dull about it?
The "interesting" travel concept sounds like an attempt to make the world seem larger than it is by creating impediments to travel.
They are going to make it difficult to travel great distances like in real life, I see this as excellent, why don't you?
I am not buying into all the hype over this game.
-e
All you are doing is stating that it is "dumb, dull and stupid" without giving a shred of explanation as to why. Why should we not find you to be the same?
But I can agree with him on a few points, not all. If there would be non-raiding servers in old EQ, I would be playing that right now and I coulnt care less about any incoming game, I would be busy earning my stuff and enjoying the game.
Haste and slow? I dont see how they can be considered a problem. IMO they are GREAT aspect of EQ and make it a better game, now maybe they could have been distributed another way among class or some stuff changed, but they BOTH improve the game a lot. A class that dont heal much and dont deal much damage NEEDS a reason to be wanted...and haste and slow could be the perfect reasons.
Travel: I mostly agree with Etcarr there, EQ and WoW travels are boring and unefficients. If I want to see landscape, I will just not order a pizza and walk out there to get it.
Instancing: I love it...but...I am willing to give what Sigil propose a try, at the first train I would bitch and complain however!
Crowd Control: As an enchanter I always think it was a great part of EQ. But CC is a new activity, it was brash and raw, it needs a lot of working and to be refine...a weak silk wearer has to get some STRONG edges and reasons why a group want them. If he cant CC more then 2 mobs, there is no points to have them, a tank can do it...but again, I am willing to give Sigil a try on this aspect.
If Sigil make sure neither PvP nor Raiding come in my way on a specific server, I will be happy to give the game a try and maybe call it home...
Of course Sigil would have me then arguing about soloing, but I can be completely happy with solo been shafted...I am a grouper mostly...soloing would improve my gameplay, but that is open for eons of feedbacks.
Can Vanguard be the best game in a few games and break WoW success? Yes it can, it is unlikely but it is possible, all depends on many choices they made or will make. Can Vanguard be a flop and a failure? Yes, most definitaly.
In case you didnt notice Etcarr...Vanguard is bringing: SPECIFIC SERVERS RULES and they underline it a LOT. Dont just expect the classic Roleplay, PvE and PvP setting, it will be FAR more then just those 3 basics differences. I cant say what it will be, and we will prolly only know at release...but I certainly can dream of non-raiding servers. Of course I could be wrong, but why wouldn't they just have said PvE, PvP and Roleplay if it was only those 3? Truth is there will prolly be at least 6 differents types...if not more.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think most of the people that will not like this game are part of the new generation of mmorpger's. They want instant rewards for everything. Probally the reason i have hated all the new games to come out in the past 3 years.
Travel was great back in the old days of eq1. when PoP came out it killed the game in so many ways. Everyone wanted to only go to zones that were near by everyone hoovers around pok. If it was gone take to long to run from point a to point b then you did not need to go to point b. Find something else to do. All the hub zones did was have tons of people yelling where is "blank zone" what its 4 zones away heck i will never go there. It really pushed people into on big hurry to get anywhere.
Instancing: Hate it, it is so repeatitive, and boring. Those that like instantcing are those that don't want to compete for the creatures in a zone. They want everything for themselves and are quite greeedy. They are ussualy the same people that join up do the mission or whatever, then leave without saying anything, and are wanting the group to go as fast as possible so they can get to their next group.
Haste, slow, Crowd control are all great abilities to make up other class types than Healer, Tank, and Dps.
That and soloing is something that need to be kept under control. I don't think that every class should be able to solo, or take the same types of creatures as well as other classes.
And to those that complain about infite life on gear, making it all one time useable is lame. It does not lower the value of the items, in fact it made them far worse. As with eq 2 it started that items were more like items from eq 1, then they swapped it to be more like wow. And the prices on everything keep going up and up, and are based on the average lvl of the players. gear will always only be worth what someone is willing to pay for it. For example a bllodpoint back in the day i could get 45000 plat for it now im luck to see 400 plat for it. Why due to the new content is better than the old gear. If they made it so it could only be worn once and then had to be sold for pennies to a merchant, no one would even give me 400p for it, and the high end gear that all the high end player need will still be sky high in prices. To those that complain either do not know how to get money or good items, or just want everything handed to them.
Basically if you dont like the sounds of this game your most likly are one of the new gen gamers, that want everything now, with no competition, and should be playing a corpg not a mmorpg.
Biggest problem i am seeing in vanguard right now is the disturbing ack of quests, during PAX the devs admited outright that the game would have a small ammount of quests and that the felt that quests were the wrong aproach in a mmorpg, directing the paer too much...
Some games can make it without quest systems, like eve, with its plaer driven content, but vanguard is a ver diferent game from eve, how will a fantas mmorpg manage to atrack and hold new plaers without a fun and well thought out quest system? most if not all mmorpg developers have aread figured out that having man quests is the wa to go, look at WoW, the new content for L2, the expansions for SWG, EQ2, DDO, LOTRO, these are the majopr competitors for Vanguard.
Sadly i think i will not be holding my breath to tr vanguard, i dont have the inclination for another raid only content game like eq, and from what im seeing, the complete lack of casual content in vanguard is going to affect vanguard in a ver bad way, i wont expect the game to brake an milestones in plaer numbers, dont think it will even brake eq2´s mediocre numbers, but thats only my opinion.
True quests can be nice and all but alot of the new games go way over board on them like eq2, and wow. To many quests, mean other players will have expected you to have done certian quests by certian levels, and its almost like giving the game a linear story line... If i wanted a story game i would go play one of the many great rpg's out there. mmorpgs are supposed to be open for the characters to create their own path and go where they want to go, and play how they want to. That and with eq2 and wowo you cannot hand down your quest items once used, or anything once used to yor alts so you are forced to do the same quests everytime you start a new character, which is very tedious.
That and raid only content for eq 1 lol... There is so much you can do without raiding anything. the majority of the game is not raiding. If you want the best items in the game you will need to raid. Eq 1 has a lot of casual content. True it depends on the class you chose, some can not solo as well as others, and groups are now rare below lvl 50, but that is just due to the age of the game.
Then again you have to be a NGG ( Next Gen Gamer) if it is not available for you to solo, or in an insta zone where everything belongs to you, or can level really fast your not happy.
Personally I want the challenge, the exploring, the taking days to cross a realm, Where there is more to fighting than press 1 thru 0 till i win, not leveling 2 or 3 times a day, and a balance of quests that fit with the realms history.
Originally posted by Etcarr Ok... Ste2000, let me just say that I see Sigil avoiding a lot of issues like crowd control, haste, slows, equal access to content, pet balance and travel which where hot issues in EQ. The Sigil answer seems to be if it is hard do, lets not do it. I am not looking for a "fixed" EQ. But Sigil is making a dull, dumb game trying to avoid the problems that plagued EQ.
Sorry, but I am not impressed.... This advanced encounter system sounds totally stupid. The class break down is dull. The "interesting" travel concept sounds like an attempt to make the world seem larger than it is by creating impediments to travel. I am not buying into all the hype over this game.
Etcarr, yours, may seems like good points if you were informed of what you were saying. The fact that you don't know enough about the game, give you the chance to find 1000 faults in it.
Sigil is not avoiding to talk about those subjects, simply there are not enough informations yet to comunicate or people didn't ask them the question yet. But for people that browse the official forum, lots of answers have been answered already, although not all of them.
Having said that, the game will be released in 1 year time, lots of things might change along the way, so there is no point in saying that the shirt will be red, and then changing it for a more fashionable green in 6 months.
This game will have the features that will prevent the game getting dull and boring, and in order to achieve that, you need to test them and change them if they don't work. That's what Sigil is doing.
I am sure they are testing the travel system right now. If its too annoying to get to places they will find a way to make it less painfull, yet realistic as possible. It's a work in progress, therefore you won't get precise answers from them. They will announce the features when they are sure that they have what they had in mind, it's all about finding the right balance between challenge and boredom, that's what Sigil is trying to do.
In other words, although they have the perfect game in mind, not all is written, and there is still room for changes.
Originally posted by Anofalye Crowd Control: As an enchanter I always think it was a great part of EQ. But CC is a new activity, it was brash and raw, it needs a lot of working and to be refine...a weak silk wearer has to get some STRONG edges and reasons why a group want them. If he cant CC more then 2 mobs, there is no points to have them, a tank can do it...but again, I am willing to give Sigil a try on this aspect. On this subject I have some reservations. I read somewhere that there won't be a class for crowd control, because that would be too much of an advantage on other classes. I hope I got the info wrong. Personally I believe that the distinctive characteristic of each class, made EQ a success. In other words, the fact that most of the classes were really good in one skill and totally dependant on other classes for the rest, is the reason why the comunity in EQ were so strong and the reason why is a success. If Sigil decide to follow the EQ2 model, were the classes are very similar and the only difference is the class name, then I believe that it would be hard to make a succesful game. I believe that the key is to make the classes totally unbalanced, with one skill in which they are particularly strong, and because no one else can perform certain actions, therefore every class is needed by the group. Another shitty (politically correct) class system ala EQ2 and I am off.
Can Vanguard be the best game in a few games and break WoW success? Yes it can, it is unlikely but it is possible, all depends on many choices they made or will make. Can Vanguard be a flop and a failure? Yes, most definitaly. No, Vanguard will never be anywhere nearer WOW.........ever. As I said several times, Vanguard is designed esclusively to appeal the CORE players (the ones that play EQ, UO, AC, DAOC, to be precise). EQ subscription base was 500K, Vanguard will aim for 200K more than that (700K), if something more will come, that's a plus. But it would be very hard. Vanguard can fail? Of course it can. It is all about balance nowadays. If you have the right ideas but the wrong balance of the features, you will screw the game. The reason why I am so positive about Vanguard, is that Brad and Co. have been in the fanbase firing line for long time (because of EQ), they know that the fanbase can be very demanding and unforgiving, and I am sure they will do anything in their power to avoid the same situation (disappointing their fanbase).
I believe they learnt a lesson that other developers are learning right now (see the several games being canceled recently and others that bombed big time)
Personally I believe that Sigil will be able to create a good challenging game minus the boring bits. Someone else has different opinion....... Fine........we will see who was right when the games comes out. If I was wrong I will be the first one to admit it, but I doubt it. I am never wrong................
On the lack of Balance and been strong in 1 aspect and needed by the group, I completely agree with you STE. They can reserve balance for PvP servers only and let the PvE live with a complete lack of balance, peoples will play what they like among the offered class.
Dont underestimate Vanguard potential, the majority of players are casuals, but they aint happy been spoon-feeded and many really dislike the must raid setting...and if there are non-raiding servers, I can tell you this is an open road for pure carnage from Vanguard in WoW fanbase that want real achievements that exclude PvP and raiding...and WoW is improving(in numbers) this fanbase a LOT.
Now, it is unlikely that Vanguard will get millions of customers, but it is not impossible...it wont happens in the first 3 months of the game release however if it happens, it will be a mouth to ear process, which take longer. May I remember you nicely that guilds like Afterlife are on WoW and where part of the creation process of the game, and with many SPECIFIC SERVERS rules...Vanguard has more potential then most games that barely offer 2 and hide a 3rd with a roleplay label.
Personnally, my interest in Vanguard is solely if they put a specific server where I dont need to raid or PvP, but where achievement is meaning something(but fun)...and I bet many players are looking for the same.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye On the lack of Balance and been strong in 1 aspect and needed by the group, I completely agree with you STE. They can reserve balance for PvP servers only and let the PvE live with a complete lack of balance, peoples will play what they like among the offered class.
Personally I understand why WOW has balanced classes (or similar) since is a PVP oriented game, but I will never understand why EQ2 has cloned classes when is mainly a PVE game The only reason i can think of, is because SOE didn't want too many moaners complaining about how the other class is much more powerful than theirs. SOE has been weak and not bold enough and now they have a mediocre game because of this, that's why I am so mad at them. Hopefully Vanguard will be a bit more daring with classes and ignore the cronic moaners that will complain about everything anyway.
Anofalye, I still don't get what you have against the raiding in principle............. You said that you like grouping.........Raids are just bigger groups, so I don't understand what scares you so much. Is it the idea of spending 8 hours waiting to complete a raid? Vanguard will not be like EQ. The time sink will be nerfed, not as much as WOW of course, but it will be in the middle between EQ and WOW. Personally the times of spending weekends raiding are over for me, but still I can spend up to 4 hours for a good raid 1 or 2 times a week, and I don't believe that it will be too much for anyone else either.
I 100% agree with you for the PvE vs PvP balancing considerations.
Why I doesnt like raiding...hmm, now that will be a long explanation. The main reason is about the efficiency of a raid, it is based on every member actions. If I do poorly, I want to feel it on me (or a group), not on 35 persons. If I do great but another is doing poorly, I dont want to see the whole guild suffer from his mistakes. See, if you take 36 persons, you can ask them to be performing great to succeed a challenge, but odds are that a few wont and it mean that the guild will wipe. Or you can water down the challenge and make it annoyingly easy, where I feel I can do any raiding as long as I dont faak...which is incredibly wrong. In a group you can ask for hard challenge from the 6 members without shafting them to much and making it to impossible, it is not that hard to find 6 good persons and be doing hard adventures. A raid, by definition, is either incredibly easy for the average member to not mess it(and thereby boring) or incredibly hard and you nearly always wipe. How can I even start thinking of enjoying a game because someone who is not even in my group is doing poorly?
The loot system is also a strong point, I am an adamant defender of the pure random for everyone who can use it. If you dont want to allow someone to roll, dont allow him to raid. And this is coming clashing with most uberguilds, who needs the staff but want to reward the olders and most unworthy leeches(who then focus on been to every raid rather then on making the raids successful). I am also a victim of my own kindness and community oriented thinking...I will often cede my loot to peoples who need it more, even if the guild would allow me to take it (or argue that I need it more)...and this doesnt work well in a system where rewards are so scarses. In a group I can live with my decision...but in a whole guild...damn, this kindness is killing me, I need my candy like everyone else does, but you always can find someone who need it more then you.
I enjoy to spend 12 hours + with my group...doing stuff and kicking mobs. I complete every TF in CoH MANY times, often 2 in a row (in differents groups). I get my fair reward, nothing more, nothing less. We succeed or failed because of our actions, of what we did. In a raid, there is MANY downtimes, doing nothing and you may succeed or failed even if your group should not proceed to that conclusion. In raiding you bear folks with bad tempers. I am sorry, bad temper folks = I quit the group right away...which mean I will quit just about any raid, because there is always someone with a bad temper in a raid. Lastly, raiding, you dont see the whole of what is happening, many aspects you dont see, you may fail or succeed and have no idea about it, and this is certainly not something I enjoy. If we wipe, I like to know that this druid did a critical mistake. Not to accuse him or shitty talk him, just to tease him in a nice way so the next time he does better. In a raid, I usually have no idea who did a lame action that cause a wipe. WAITING 1 hour is 1 hour to much, I want to PLAY, not to WAIT! (I would accept easily a limit of 1 TF a day or a week if you want to favorised the casuals, doesnt bother me to have a limit of what I can achieve, I will hard press that limit continually, this is all)
Raiding and grouping share nothing in comon...NOTHING. I will group you right now for 15 hours if you want (18 hours is to much, I can tell you right now). But dont ask me to raid anything, I will just /q.
If raiding give better grouping reward, then I stop grouping just like I stop soloing when grouping give better soloing rewards. If you want me to group, grouping needs to give the BEST grouping rewards. If you want me to solo (doesnt seem to be the case for the devs in many games those days), then solo needs to give the BEST solo rewards. I wont do something that have no reward linked to it...and I will not start doing something I dislike (like raiding) in order to get the good stuff for an activity that is not worth doing on it own anymore.
Endless farming is incredibly more interesting then raiding, at least everything is based on you or your group and the loot distribution doesnt pass throught a political system. And dont tell me that the guy in Afterlife who barely follow command for 30 hours a week was more worthy then any soloer soloing 40 hours a week, the soloer was a hundred time more worthy then that guy who simply follow order and wait a lot.
Raiding (and grouping to a much lesser extend) leave place for the unworthy to climb inside the system, a place they doesnt deserve. I rather see a worthy system in soloing where you spread it to 80 hours needed a week or to incredibly deadly challenge (like soloing mobs who kill you in 1 tick and summon, did that btw), then see a system where you have to bear 10 hours a week some jerks while waiting for the officer to command you to action, there is nothing worthy in bearing the social deficients, leave them alone, they can earn their uberness soloing or grouping AWAY from me, if they are skilled enought or worthy enough in time requirement...but please...oh please...dont ask me to bear them even 1 hour while the officers are asking us to wait! Damn...quite simple, I want to PLAY and to EARN my stuff, not to WAIT and FOLLOW commands. And guess what, most raid leaders come to appreciate me a lot and actually, I do group raid leaders a LOT and they often goes anonymous or miss a raid and regain energy to go bear the social deficients a little later. But Social Officers are the worst, I cant even bear them in a 10 miles radius, those who enforce the ways of the socially deficients on everyone...oh no...cant bear them. Social Officers(which guildleaders often are) are not my friends.
PS: It is raid leaders in many uberguilds that were trying to convince me to join and raid and all...for years...those raid leaders are nice persons, great fun to group with (or even to raid with), but what they ask was incredibly boring and not fun...yet they visibly want more efficient persons, because the raiding system favorised uneficient spreading. I give raiding a few tries...but I just make NO FUN in that, it is completely unworthy, it mean nothing...as far as achieving is concerned...of course raiding has some social tuning, but it is nothing compare to a real social oriented game like EQ2 for example, where real community oriented players can make great fun (which I am not to that scope).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If my main concern about raiding was only about loot, I would be raiding the Hamidon in CoH, 1 high end drop for every few hours, that is an incredible ratio. But I am not doing the Hamidon, I did it once, then burk out and never did it again.
So yes, loot does matter, but it is a secondary point of concern (quite important nonetheless), the most important point is...I dont make fun while raiding, while I really enjoy grouping. Socials links and behavior and effectiveness are not the same at all.
A quick example: For me grouping would be like a group of hunters going to hunt for food for the clan. Raiding is back home as to who eat what and sit where, all based on a matriarcal system...so dont wonder why I dont like it, it has nothing to do with achievements unless you are talking of some social achievements, I rather be non-stop hunting then involve in such politics...especially that hunter have to eat while they hunt more...hunters dont bring unefficient lovers boys, they leave them back home, we dont have to bear them while hunting. Now, what is the worst part of it, who sit at the better spot is automatically a better hunter, and who eat this piece become instantly a better hunter, we all know it doesnt work that way...the best hunter is a hunter, not a loverboy who manage to convince the clan they deserve more... In this example we could even associate soloing to trapping, we all know the best hunter is not necessarily a good trapper, and the best trapper is not necessarily a good or bad hunter...for some reason, MMOs like to reward 1 aspect at the expense of every others...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Lol to me it sounds more like a guild issue than a raiding issue, and i have yet to play a game were it forces you to raid. There is always plenty of grouping, and sometimes solo content. Raiding is more for when you get to max lvl have boughten all the best loot, and have nothing left to really spend money on and yet want better gear, or hard challenges. If your guild is good at raiding too, most don't really take that long to do, most of ours are only 2 hours tops. We show up the raid leader puts the groups together names a tarrget we go kill it. All of us know what targets we are after and what were are to be doing during the raid so it goes much faster if your members already know what to expect.
And if you don't raid it does nothing to stop you from grouping in any game i have done. That and as you say soloing is the main polayer base, it shouldn't be mmorpgs are about playing with other people if all you want is solo go play the non mmo games, they will better suite you.
Originally posted by skeezixs Lol to me it sounds more like a guild issue than a raiding issue, and i have yet to play a game were it forces you to raid. There is always plenty of grouping, and sometimes solo content. Raiding is more for when you get to max lvl have boughten all the best loot, and have nothing left to really spend money on and yet want better gear, or hard challenges. If your guild is good at raiding too, most don't really take that long to do, most of ours are only 2 hours tops. We show up the raid leader puts the groups together names a tarrget we go kill it. All of us know what targets we are after and what were are to be doing during the raid so it goes much faster if your members already know what to expect. And if you don't raid it does nothing to stop you from grouping in any game i have done. That and as you say soloing is the main polayer base, it shouldn't be mmorpgs are about playing with other people if all you want is solo go play the non mmo games, they will better suite you.
Skeezixs, have you ever played EQ? Anofalye was referring to EQ raids, which last at least 4 hours, but an average one is about 6 (and when you have to wait the boss to spawn, it can last up to 8). WOW and EQ2 raids are rubbish, even my 9 y/o sister could lead one. In EQ though, you really need to be an experienced player to lead a raid and have enough skills to take part in one, and even then, you are not sure if you can beat the final mob (or named).
But I understand that this kind of things are not acceptable anymore. Personally, I am a raider, I have been raid leader in EQ, and enjoy raids very much. But I have to agree that although I like raids, I cannot spend so much time chasing a Named anymore.
I really hope that Vanguard will be a raid oriented game (sorry Anofalye), but frankly I hope that Sigil won't make the assumption that people has the entire day to play a raid, because I believe that even old EQ players have not intention to get hooked to another game that requires the sacrifice of their social life. EQ was an exception for me, and I intend to keep it that way...........
I, have no fear, Vanguard will be a raid oriented game, and hopefully it would be better then EQ. However, I hope for non-raiding server with a LDoN type of loot awarding the best gear, which remove nothing from the regular raiding servers. It would just mean that you will never meet me or group with me, and that I will never meet Uberguilds folks, which will only make me happier.
STE: Are you honestly hoping that raiding will be easier and there will be less raiding content then in EQ (or much easier)? You will gain nothing if the game has less. Me as long as raiding dont give the best reward on my server, I cant care less what happen on others servers, but I certainly wish there is more stuff and more challenges for the players to munch on and be happy with. The casual approach of: I hope I can master it easily is killing games, not helping them. Casuals need to master sections of the games(levels caps and gear caps are a possible solution), not the whole game. If casuals master the whole game, nobody win, everyone lose, including the casuals. Casuals needs to masters SECTIONS of the game...not the whole game... (exactly like groupers needs to master the grouping aspect of the game, not the whole game...but if raiders master the grouping aspect of the game, then grouping is worthless and useless...same apply with every game play, including solo)
I am at a point where any game that reward raiders better then non-raiders is a game I will not play, no matter how easy, hard, well thinked, lamely thinked, the raiding is. Raiding is not what I want or pay for, I pay for solo or group content that has no dependancy on raiding. If 1 raider get 1 item that make it better then a non-raider in the grouping setting or the soloing setting, I dont buy the game or cancel my subscription.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I, have no fear, Vanguard will be a raid oriented game, and hopefully it would be better then EQ. However, I hope for non-raiding server with a LDoN type of loot awarding the best gear, which remove nothing from the regular raiding servers. It would just mean that you will never meet me or group with me, and that I will never meet Uberguilds folks, which will only make me happier.
I'll put $50 down right now, saying that there will not be a server at release, or within 6 months of release, where all raid content is removed, and all loot from it available by other means. It's an unrealisitic request for the devs to re-engineer the content of the game the game for a minority of the servers. Putting in some switches to allow pvp is one thing. Putting in a few more to disallow grouping with opposing factions is one thing. But gutting the content and loot tables in the game just so you have a server without raid content is another altogether.
So, there's my bet. You can find me at Silkyvenom.com if by some miracle you're actually able to collect on it.
STE: Are you honestly hoping that raiding will be easier and there will be less raiding content then in EQ (or much easier)? You will gain nothing if the game has less. Me as long as raiding dont give the best reward on my server, I cant care less what happen on others servers, but I certainly wish there is more stuff and more challenges for the players to munch on and be happy with. The casual approach of: I hope I can master it easily is killing games, not helping them. Casuals need to master sections of the games(levels caps and gear caps are a possible solution), not the whole game. If casuals master the whole game, nobody win, everyone lose, including the casuals. Casuals needs to masters SECTIONS of the game...not the whole game... (exactly like groupers needs to master the grouping aspect of the game, not the whole game...but if raiders master the grouping aspect of the game, then grouping is worthless and useless...same apply with every game play, including solo)
Casuals CAN MASTER THIER ASPECT OF THE GAME. It's really not that tough a concept. The best raider in the game, with gear 20x better than a solo'er, still doesn't have a clue how to solo unless they've done their fair share of it. Watching raiding necros trying to solo HoH basement in PoP was perfect evidence. I could do that just fine, and keep 6+ Sentry's down (the unsnareable ones). But raiding necros had to have a heal/sow bot sitting there to make sure it was possible for them. The gear is not what makes an exceptional player. The player is.
Yet you keep demanding that the loot be granted to you to allow you to be the best.... Hmmmm. Things are starting to add up...
I am at a point where any game that reward raiders better then non-raiders is a game I will not play, no matter how easy, hard, well thinked, lamely thinked, the raiding is. Raiding is not what I want or pay for, I pay for solo or group content that has no dependancy on raiding. If 1 raider get 1 item that make it better then a non-raider in the grouping setting or the soloing setting, I dont buy the game or cancel my subscription.
Well fan-friggin-tastic. We've reached an agreement. You aren't going to play Vanguard.
LOL, Festhey is always fun to talk with, it is always a reset to 0, having to explain everything again.
The best soloer cant be using raid equipement to achieve his solo deeds, or solo is completely shafted and pointless. Friendly competition needs to be coming from others soloers, not from bored raiders that doesnt care about soloing. But this is a concept beyond Feshtey grasp I fear. The player without the gear is nothing at a point, no amount of skill will allow you to raid some target if you doesnt have the rightfull stats to meet the challenge. (same apply even more with best groupers needing to use grouping gear, no tools he earn outside of grouping)
You want me to move away? Dream on, Vanguard is 1 of my best hope to have a nice MMO, no matter how unlikely it is to happen.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
LOL, Festhey is always fun to talk with, it is always a reset to 0, having to explain everything again.
Want me to explain again for you? Ok.... Yet again :
You are ok with someone being screwed, as long as it's not you.
The best soloer cant be using raid equipement to achieve his solo deeds, or solo is completely shafted and pointless.
No, it doesn't. And no, it isn't.
A person who groups and/or raids consistently is investing in the community of the game. They are playing the game as it's designed to be played (assuming that grouping/raiding is central to the game's design). There is no logic whatsoever in rewarding people who circumvent that core aspect of the game, and allowing them to be better at something than anyone else.
This may not be true for all games. But it is true for Vanguard. Which begs the question; why do you feel it even remotely appropriate to change the core philosophy of this game? If it's not for you, move on. Find something closer to your desires. That's why different companies make different games. You don't want what this game offers, and there's nothing in the world wrong with that. But what fails all logical explanation is why you insist that the people supporting Vanguard not get what is both offered by Sigil, and desired by it's supporters.
Friendly competition needs to be coming from others soloers, not from bored raiders that doesnt care about soloing. But this is a concept beyond Feshtey grasp I fear. The player without the gear is nothing at a point, no amount of skill will allow you to raid some target if you doesnt have the rightfull stats to meet the challenge. (same apply even more with best groupers needing to use grouping gear, no tools he earn outside of grouping)
In a game designed with solo'ing as a core concept, I'd agree with you. But not all games need be designed that way, or are even saught by all gamers. And that is only true of gamers that feel they have failed if they are not 'the best'. Believe it or not, a lot of gamers don't give a rat's ass about the status of other players. They play to conquer content, and to progress. If they can do that, it's meaningless for them what anyone else has or can do. They aren't so insecure that they have to be #1 to enjoy themselves. You don't believe that, which speaks volumes about your personality (not necissarily negatively). But your personality is not the only personality.
You want me to move away? Dream on, Vanguard is 1 of my best hope to have a nice MMO, no matter how unlikely it is to happen.
From all evidence available, Vanguard is about the furthest from your desires as a game could be. Everything you loathe will be in Vanguard. Which is what makes it so unbelievable that you think you can change it into the game you desire. And what makes it insulting as hell that you have so little respect for the desires of all the people supporting Vanguard for what it is offering.
You might be annoyed with me because you think you have to repeat your same tired arguments. But I find you irritating because you see everything as simple black and white. Your opinion is the only valid opinion in your eyes, and no game should ever be made in other other terms. You show no repsect at all for the desires of gamers who want exactly that which you hate. And you can't seem to fathom the concept that you can go to many other games and get far far closer to your desires than what Vanguard offers. You instead insist that all the gamers that want this game to do exactly what it promises to do take a hike, just so that you get what you want here, rather than elsewhere.
It's arrogant, it's disrespectful, and it boggles the mind.
Originally posted by Anofalye STE: Are you honestly hoping that raiding will be easier and there will be less raiding content then in EQ (or much easier)? You will gain nothing if the game has less.
I don't want easier Raids (in fact I want them harder than EQ), I just want shorter ones. I want to be able to get to the final mob much faster without killing 1 Zillion pointless mobs that don't give you XP anyway. Also respawn times should be shorter (really .........camping for hours a mob is not fun)
I believe that 4 hours max, is enough for a good raid.
Yes I play eq, and have been on may raids, and even the raid leader for a few guilds. Most of the raid content my guilds can do in 2 hours, we set aside a 6 hour raid time on saturday but that ussually involes hitting more than 1 raid mob.
And what anofalye is requesting is dumb, I would hate to see a game were everything can be gotten thru farming. There is nothing wrong with putting challenging raid content into the game so that it take many people to gain the best gear in the game. Once again your just one of the NGG's that want everything given to them, you should go play non mmorpgs you'll be happier.
And to those raid geared morons that can't play well they are almost always a ebayer. Not everyone is good enough to be a raider, some just don't have what it takes. soloing does have its own challenge, but should never be the main stream for any mmorpg.
Oky STE, I was just not understanding what you meant. Sound wise to me.
To the insulting crew: Anofalye say dumb stuff and we, raiders, are roxor skills or ebay... *shrug* You prove my point more then you could even think of. I never ask for farming, it could be challenge of farming, as long as it is done solo or grouped. Both solutions are acceptable with me. Like some others you rather just get rid of talented player who can bring challenge inside the grouping and the soloing game. But a better soloing game is not something that would harm a MMO, it would help it. Fighting solo needs lead to games like WoW...
Soloing deserve not to be the main stream, I never ask that, I ask that soloing grant the BEST soloing gear, I dont care if outside of soloing the soloing gear is pointless. Grouping deserve to grant the BEST grouping gear. A real raider will be perfectly happy if raiding give only raiding edges and is completely useless outside of raiding, someone saying otherwise is like the PvPers fans who love gankfest.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I´m wondering how will they handle the raiding in vanguard, mainly in terms of fairness to the players, my view of a game is that the content should be availble to every gamer on demand.
If a wants to organize a raid on a mob, should it be stoped form doing so because the spot/dungeon is camped 24/7 by a few select guild? will the players be forced to join raid bots to be able to raid?
I admit i dont have the knowledge of how vanguard is going to do this, but wow solved the problem with instancing the dungeon for the raid, so every raid would have a shot at the game content for raids is just plain stupid and would lead to player abuse.
Originally posted by Kem0sabe I´m wondering how will they handle the raiding in vanguard, mainly in terms of fairness to the players, my view of a game is that the content should be availble to every gamer on demand. If a wants to organize a raid on a mob, should it be stoped form doing so because the spot/dungeon is camped 24/7 by a few select guild? will the players be forced to join raid bots to be able to raid? I admit i dont have the knowledge of how vanguard is going to do this, but wow solved the problem with instancing the dungeon for the raid, so every raid would have a shot at the game content for raids is just plain stupid and would lead to player abuse.
They've said that many of the named mobs, and mobs needed for progressions, will be quest triggered. Also, they've said that there will be named in dungeons along what they call adventure routes, that only spawn when triggered by the actions of a group, or loot drops, etc. Those specific mobs are only attackable by the group that triggered them.
The reasoning behind this is that they don't want a group or raid to spend a bunch of time working towards a mob kill, and have some other group swipe it. I'm sure there are some considerations for availability in this too.
Originally posted by Kem0sabe I´m wondering how will they handle the raiding in vanguard, mainly in terms of fairness to the players, my view of a game is that the content should be availble to every gamer on demand. If a wants to organize a raid on a mob, should it be stoped form doing so because the spot/dungeon is camped 24/7 by a few select guild? will the players be forced to join raid bots to be able to raid?
Basically Kem0sabe, as Feyshtey said the raid mob spawn will be triggered by an item. What that means? It means that throughout the game, players will be able to find certain items that will allow the owner and their fellow group/raid members, to spawn a certain mob that only that particular raid force will be able to engage. Therefore you won't see in Vanguard any UBER guild camping a mob for hours, allowing anyone to enjoy raids, without wasting hours waiting for their turn to kill a Boss.
Comments
I think Etcarr is going hard on Sigil.
But I can agree with him on a few points, not all. If there would be non-raiding servers in old EQ, I would be playing that right now and I coulnt care less about any incoming game, I would be busy earning my stuff and enjoying the game.
Haste and slow? I dont see how they can be considered a problem. IMO they are GREAT aspect of EQ and make it a better game, now maybe they could have been distributed another way among class or some stuff changed, but they BOTH improve the game a lot. A class that dont heal much and dont deal much damage NEEDS a reason to be wanted...and haste and slow could be the perfect reasons.
Travel: I mostly agree with Etcarr there, EQ and WoW travels are boring and unefficients. If I want to see landscape, I will just not order a pizza and walk out there to get it.
Instancing: I love it...but...I am willing to give what Sigil propose a try, at the first train I would bitch and complain however!
Crowd Control: As an enchanter I always think it was a great part of EQ. But CC is a new activity, it was brash and raw, it needs a lot of working and to be refine...a weak silk wearer has to get some STRONG edges and reasons why a group want them. If he cant CC more then 2 mobs, there is no points to have them, a tank can do it...but again, I am willing to give Sigil a try on this aspect.
If Sigil make sure neither PvP nor Raiding come in my way on a specific server, I will be happy to give the game a try and maybe call it home...
Of course Sigil would have me then arguing about soloing, but I can be completely happy with solo been shafted...I am a grouper mostly...soloing would improve my gameplay, but that is open for eons of feedbacks.
Can Vanguard be the best game in a few games and break WoW success? Yes it can, it is unlikely but it is possible, all depends on many choices they made or will make. Can Vanguard be a flop and a failure? Yes, most definitaly.
In case you didnt notice Etcarr...Vanguard is bringing: SPECIFIC SERVERS RULES and they underline it a LOT. Dont just expect the classic Roleplay, PvE and PvP setting, it will be FAR more then just those 3 basics differences. I cant say what it will be, and we will prolly only know at release...but I certainly can dream of non-raiding servers. Of course I could be wrong, but why wouldn't they just have said PvE, PvP and Roleplay if it was only those 3? Truth is there will prolly be at least 6 differents types...if not more.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I think most of the people that will not like this game are part of the new generation of mmorpger's. They want instant rewards for everything. Probally the reason i have hated all the new games to come out in the past 3 years.
Travel was great back in the old days of eq1. when PoP came out it killed the game in so many ways. Everyone wanted to only go to zones that were near by everyone hoovers around pok. If it was gone take to long to run from point a to point b then you did not need to go to point b. Find something else to do. All the hub zones did was have tons of people yelling where is "blank zone" what its 4 zones away heck i will never go there. It really pushed people into on big hurry to get anywhere.
Instancing: Hate it, it is so repeatitive, and boring. Those that like instantcing are those that don't want to compete for the creatures in a zone. They want everything for themselves and are quite greeedy. They are ussualy the same people that join up do the mission or whatever, then leave without saying anything, and are wanting the group to go as fast as possible so they can get to their next group.
Haste, slow, Crowd control are all great abilities to make up other class types than Healer, Tank, and Dps.
That and soloing is something that need to be kept under control. I don't think that every class should be able to solo, or take the same types of creatures as well as other classes.
And to those that complain about infite life on gear, making it all one time useable is lame. It does not lower the value of the items, in fact it made them far worse. As with eq 2 it started that items were more like items from eq 1, then they swapped it to be more like wow. And the prices on everything keep going up and up, and are based on the average lvl of the players. gear will always only be worth what someone is willing to pay for it. For example a bllodpoint back in the day i could get 45000 plat for it now im luck to see 400 plat for it. Why due to the new content is better than the old gear. If they made it so it could only be worn once and then had to be sold for pennies to a merchant, no one would even give me 400p for it, and the high end gear that all the high end player need will still be sky high in prices. To those that complain either do not know how to get money or good items, or just want everything handed to them.
Basically if you dont like the sounds of this game your most likly are one of the new gen gamers, that want everything now, with no competition, and should be playing a corpg not a mmorpg.
Biggest problem i am seeing in vanguard right now is the disturbing ack of quests, during PAX the devs admited outright that the game would have a small ammount of quests and that the felt that quests were the wrong aproach in a mmorpg, directing the paer too much...
Some games can make it without quest systems, like eve, with its plaer driven content, but vanguard is a ver diferent game from eve, how will a fantas mmorpg manage to atrack and hold new plaers without a fun and well thought out quest system? most if not all mmorpg developers have aread figured out that having man quests is the wa to go, look at WoW, the new content for L2, the expansions for SWG, EQ2, DDO, LOTRO, these are the majopr competitors for Vanguard.
Sadly i think i will not be holding my breath to tr vanguard, i dont have the inclination for another raid only content game like eq, and from what im seeing, the complete lack of casual content in vanguard is going to affect vanguard in a ver bad way, i wont expect the game to brake an milestones in plaer numbers, dont think it will even brake eq2´s mediocre numbers, but thats only my opinion.
True quests can be nice and all but alot of the new games go way over board on them like eq2, and wow. To many quests, mean other players will have expected you to have done certian quests by certian levels, and its almost like giving the game a linear story line... If i wanted a story game i would go play one of the many great rpg's out there. mmorpgs are supposed to be open for the characters to create their own path and go where they want to go, and play how they want to. That and with eq2 and wowo you cannot hand down your quest items once used, or anything once used to yor alts so you are forced to do the same quests everytime you start a new character, which is very tedious.
That and raid only content for eq 1 lol... There is so much you can do without raiding anything. the majority of the game is not raiding. If you want the best items in the game you will need to raid. Eq 1 has a lot of casual content. True it depends on the class you chose, some can not solo as well as others, and groups are now rare below lvl 50, but that is just due to the age of the game.
Then again you have to be a NGG ( Next Gen Gamer) if it is not available for you to solo, or in an insta zone where everything belongs to you, or can level really fast your not happy.
Personally I want the challenge, the exploring, the taking days to cross a realm, Where there is more to fighting than press 1 thru 0 till i win, not leveling 2 or 3 times a day, and a balance of quests that fit with the realms history.
Etcarr, yours, may seems like good points if you were informed of what you were saying.
The fact that you don't know enough about the game, give you the chance to find 1000 faults in it.
Sigil is not avoiding to talk about those subjects, simply there are not enough informations yet to comunicate or people didn't ask them the question yet.
But for people that browse the official forum, lots of answers have been answered already, although not all of them.
Having said that, the game will be released in 1 year time, lots of things might change along the way, so there is no point in saying that the shirt will be red, and then changing it for a more fashionable green in 6 months.
This game will have the features that will prevent the game getting dull and boring, and in order to achieve that, you need to test them and change them if they don't work.
That's what Sigil is doing.
I am sure they are testing the travel system right now.
If its too annoying to get to places they will find a way to make it less painfull, yet realistic as possible.
It's a work in progress, therefore you won't get precise answers from them.
They will announce the features when they are sure that they have what they had in mind, it's all about finding the right balance between challenge and boredom, that's what Sigil is trying to do.
In other words, although they have the perfect game in mind, not all is written, and there is still room for changes.
On the lack of Balance and been strong in 1 aspect and needed by the group, I completely agree with you STE.
They can reserve balance for PvP servers only and let the PvE live with a complete lack of balance, peoples will play what they like among the offered class. 
Dont underestimate Vanguard potential, the majority of players are casuals, but they aint happy been spoon-feeded and many really dislike the must raid setting...and if there are non-raiding servers, I can tell you this is an open road for pure carnage from Vanguard in WoW fanbase that want real achievements that exclude PvP and raiding...and WoW is improving(in numbers) this fanbase a LOT.
Now, it is unlikely that Vanguard will get millions of customers, but it is not impossible...it wont happens in the first 3 months of the game release however if it happens, it will be a mouth to ear process, which take longer. May I remember you nicely that guilds like Afterlife are on WoW and where part of the creation process of the game, and with many SPECIFIC SERVERS rules...Vanguard has more potential then most games that barely offer 2 and hide a 3rd with a roleplay label.
Personnally, my interest in Vanguard is solely if they put a specific server where I dont need to raid or PvP, but where achievement is meaning something(but fun)...and I bet many players are looking for the same.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The only reason i can think of, is because SOE didn't want too many moaners complaining about how the other class is much more powerful than theirs.
SOE has been weak and not bold enough and now they have a mediocre game because of this, that's why I am so mad at them.
Hopefully Vanguard will be a bit more daring with classes and ignore the cronic moaners that will complain about everything anyway.
Anofalye, I still don't get what you have against the raiding in principle.............
You said that you like grouping.........Raids are just bigger groups, so I don't understand what scares you so much.
Is it the idea of spending 8 hours waiting to complete a raid?
Vanguard will not be like EQ.
The time sink will be nerfed, not as much as WOW of course, but it will be in the middle between EQ and WOW.
Personally the times of spending weekends raiding are over for me, but still I can spend up to 4 hours for a good raid 1 or 2 times a week, and I don't believe that it will be too much for anyone else either.
I 100% agree with you for the PvE vs PvP balancing considerations.
Why I doesnt like raiding...hmm, now that will be a long explanation. The main reason is about the efficiency of a raid, it is based on every member actions. If I do poorly, I want to feel it on me (or a group), not on 35 persons. If I do great but another is doing poorly, I dont want to see the whole guild suffer from his mistakes. See, if you take 36 persons, you can ask them to be performing great to succeed a challenge, but odds are that a few wont and it mean that the guild will wipe. Or you can water down the challenge and make it annoyingly easy, where I feel I can do any raiding as long as I dont faak...which is incredibly wrong. In a group you can ask for hard challenge from the 6 members without shafting them to much and making it to impossible, it is not that hard to find 6 good persons and be doing hard adventures. A raid, by definition, is either incredibly easy for the average member to not mess it(and thereby boring) or incredibly hard and you nearly always wipe. How can I even start thinking of enjoying a game because someone who is not even in my group is doing poorly?
The loot system is also a strong point, I am an adamant defender of the pure random for everyone who can use it. If you dont want to allow someone to roll, dont allow him to raid. And this is coming clashing with most uberguilds, who needs the staff but want to reward the olders and most unworthy leeches(who then focus on been to every raid rather then on making the raids successful). I am also a victim of my own kindness and community oriented thinking...I will often cede my loot to peoples who need it more, even if the guild would allow me to take it (or argue that I need it more)...and this doesnt work well in a system where rewards are so scarses. In a group I can live with my decision...but in a whole guild...damn, this kindness is killing me, I need my candy like everyone else does, but you always can find someone who need it more then you.
I enjoy to spend 12 hours + with my group...doing stuff and kicking mobs. I complete every TF in CoH MANY times, often 2 in a row (in differents groups). I get my fair reward, nothing more, nothing less. We succeed or failed because of our actions, of what we did. In a raid, there is MANY downtimes, doing nothing and you may succeed or failed even if your group should not proceed to that conclusion. In raiding you bear folks with bad tempers. I am sorry, bad temper folks = I quit the group right away...which mean I will quit just about any raid, because there is always someone with a bad temper in a raid. Lastly, raiding, you dont see the whole of what is happening, many aspects you dont see, you may fail or succeed and have no idea about it, and this is certainly not something I enjoy. If we wipe, I like to know that this druid did a critical mistake. Not to accuse him or shitty talk him, just to tease him in a nice way so the next time he does better. In a raid, I usually have no idea who did a lame action that cause a wipe. WAITING 1 hour is 1 hour to much, I want to PLAY, not to WAIT! (I would accept easily a limit of 1 TF a day or a week if you want to favorised the casuals, doesnt bother me to have a limit of what I can achieve, I will hard press that limit continually, this is all)
Raiding and grouping share nothing in comon...NOTHING. I will group you right now for 15 hours if you want (18 hours is to much, I can tell you right now). But dont ask me to raid anything, I will just /q.
If raiding give better grouping reward, then I stop grouping just like I stop soloing when grouping give better soloing rewards. If you want me to group, grouping needs to give the BEST grouping rewards. If you want me to solo (doesnt seem to be the case for the devs in many games those days), then solo needs to give the BEST solo rewards. I wont do something that have no reward linked to it...and I will not start doing something I dislike (like raiding) in order to get the good stuff for an activity that is not worth doing on it own anymore.
Endless farming is incredibly more interesting then raiding, at least everything is based on you or your group and the loot distribution doesnt pass throught a political system. And dont tell me that the guy in Afterlife who barely follow command for 30 hours a week was more worthy then any soloer soloing 40 hours a week, the soloer was a hundred time more worthy then that guy who simply follow order and wait a lot.
Raiding (and grouping to a much lesser extend) leave place for the unworthy to climb inside the system, a place they doesnt deserve. I rather see a worthy system in soloing where you spread it to 80 hours needed a week or to incredibly deadly challenge (like soloing mobs who kill you in 1 tick and summon, did that btw), then see a system where you have to bear 10 hours a week some jerks while waiting for the officer to command you to action, there is nothing worthy in bearing the social deficients, leave them alone, they can earn their uberness soloing or grouping AWAY from me, if they are skilled enought or worthy enough in time requirement...but please...oh please...dont ask me to bear them even 1 hour while the officers are asking us to wait! Damn...quite simple, I want to PLAY and to EARN my stuff, not to WAIT and FOLLOW commands. And guess what, most raid leaders come to appreciate me a lot and actually, I do group raid leaders a LOT and they often goes anonymous or miss a raid and regain energy to go bear the social deficients a little later. But Social Officers are the worst, I cant even bear them in a 10 miles radius, those who enforce the ways of the socially deficients on everyone...oh no...cant bear them. Social Officers(which guildleaders often are) are not my friends.
PS: It is raid leaders in many uberguilds that were trying to convince me to join and raid and all...for years...those raid leaders are nice persons, great fun to group with (or even to raid with), but what they ask was incredibly boring and not fun...yet they visibly want more efficient persons, because the raiding system favorised uneficient spreading. I give raiding a few tries...but I just make NO FUN in that, it is completely unworthy, it mean nothing...as far as achieving is concerned...of course raiding has some social tuning, but it is nothing compare to a real social oriented game like EQ2 for example, where real community oriented players can make great fun (which I am not to that scope).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
(sorry for double post)
Just want to add...
If my main concern about raiding was only about loot, I would be raiding the Hamidon in CoH, 1 high end drop for every few hours, that is an incredible ratio. But I am not doing the Hamidon, I did it once, then burk out and never did it again.
So yes, loot does matter, but it is a secondary point of concern (quite important nonetheless), the most important point is...I dont make fun while raiding, while I really enjoy grouping. Socials links and behavior and effectiveness are not the same at all.
A quick example: For me grouping would be like a group of hunters going to hunt for food for the clan. Raiding is back home as to who eat what and sit where, all based on a matriarcal system...so dont wonder why I dont like it, it has nothing to do with achievements unless you are talking of some social achievements, I rather be non-stop hunting then involve in such politics...especially that hunter have to eat while they hunt more...hunters dont bring unefficient lovers boys, they leave them back home, we dont have to bear them while hunting. Now, what is the worst part of it, who sit at the better spot is automatically a better hunter, and who eat this piece become instantly a better hunter, we all know it doesnt work that way...the best hunter is a hunter, not a loverboy who manage to convince the clan they deserve more...
In this example we could even associate soloing to trapping, we all know the best hunter is not necessarily a good trapper, and the best trapper is not necessarily a good or bad hunter...for some reason, MMOs like to reward 1 aspect at the expense of every others...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Lol to me it sounds more like a guild issue than a raiding issue, and i have yet to play a game were it forces you to raid. There is always plenty of grouping, and sometimes solo content. Raiding is more for when you get to max lvl have boughten all the best loot, and have nothing left to really spend money on and yet want better gear, or hard challenges. If your guild is good at raiding too, most don't really take that long to do, most of ours are only 2 hours tops. We show up the raid leader puts the groups together names a tarrget we go kill it. All of us know what targets we are after and what were are to be doing during the raid so it goes much faster if your members already know what to expect.
And if you don't raid it does nothing to stop you from grouping in any game i have done. That and as you say soloing is the main polayer base, it shouldn't be mmorpgs are about playing with other people if all you want is solo go play the non mmo games, they will better suite you.
Anofalye was referring to EQ raids, which last at least 4 hours, but an average one is about 6 (and when you have to wait the boss to spawn, it can last up to 8).
WOW and EQ2 raids are rubbish, even my 9 y/o sister could lead one.
In EQ though, you really need to be an experienced player to lead a raid and have enough skills to take part in one, and even then, you are not sure if you can beat the final mob (or named).
But I understand that this kind of things are not acceptable anymore.
Personally, I am a raider, I have been raid leader in EQ, and enjoy raids very much.
But I have to agree that although I like raids, I cannot spend so much time chasing a Named anymore.
I really hope that Vanguard will be a raid oriented game (sorry Anofalye), but frankly I hope that Sigil won't make the assumption that people has the entire day to play a raid, because I believe that even old EQ players have not intention to get hooked to another game that requires the sacrifice of their social life.
EQ was an exception for me, and I intend to keep it that way...........
I, have no fear, Vanguard will be a raid oriented game, and hopefully it would be better then EQ. However, I hope for non-raiding server with a LDoN type of loot awarding the best gear, which remove nothing from the regular raiding servers. It would just mean that you will never meet me or group with me, and that I will never meet Uberguilds folks, which will only make me happier.
STE: Are you honestly hoping that raiding will be easier and there will be less raiding content then in EQ (or much easier)? You will gain nothing if the game has less. Me as long as raiding dont give the best reward on my server, I cant care less what happen on others servers, but I certainly wish there is more stuff and more challenges for the players to munch on and be happy with. The casual approach of: I hope I can master it easily is killing games, not helping them. Casuals need to master sections of the games(levels caps and gear caps are a possible solution), not the whole game. If casuals master the whole game, nobody win, everyone lose, including the casuals. Casuals needs to masters SECTIONS of the game...not the whole game... (exactly like groupers needs to master the grouping aspect of the game, not the whole game...but if raiders master the grouping aspect of the game, then grouping is worthless and useless...same apply with every game play, including solo)
I am at a point where any game that reward raiders better then non-raiders is a game I will not play, no matter how easy, hard, well thinked, lamely thinked, the raiding is. Raiding is not what I want or pay for, I pay for solo or group content that has no dependancy on raiding. If 1 raider get 1 item that make it better then a non-raider in the grouping setting or the soloing setting, I dont buy the game or cancel my subscription.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
double post sowwy.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'll put $50 down right now, saying that there will not be a server at release, or within 6 months of release, where all raid content is removed, and all loot from it available by other means. It's an unrealisitic request for the devs to re-engineer the content of the game the game for a minority of the servers. Putting in some switches to allow pvp is one thing. Putting in a few more to disallow grouping with opposing factions is one thing. But gutting the content and loot tables in the game just so you have a server without raid content is another altogether.
So, there's my bet. You can find me at Silkyvenom.com if by some miracle you're actually able to collect on it.
Casuals CAN MASTER THIER ASPECT OF THE GAME. It's really not that tough a concept. The best raider in the game, with gear 20x better than a solo'er, still doesn't have a clue how to solo unless they've done their fair share of it. Watching raiding necros trying to solo HoH basement in PoP was perfect evidence. I could do that just fine, and keep 6+ Sentry's down (the unsnareable ones). But raiding necros had to have a heal/sow bot sitting there to make sure it was possible for them. The gear is not what makes an exceptional player. The player is.
Yet you keep demanding that the loot be granted to you to allow you to be the best.... Hmmmm. Things are starting to add up...
Well fan-friggin-tastic. We've reached an agreement. You aren't going to play Vanguard.
Will you go away now?
-Feyshtey-
LOL, Festhey is always fun to talk with, it is always a reset to 0, having to explain everything again.
The best soloer cant be using raid equipement to achieve his solo deeds, or solo is completely shafted and pointless.
Friendly competition needs to be coming from others soloers, not from bored raiders that doesnt care about soloing. But this is a concept beyond Feshtey grasp I fear. The player without the gear is nothing at a point, no amount of skill will allow you to raid some target if you doesnt have the rightfull stats to meet the challenge. (same apply even more with best groupers needing to use grouping gear, no tools he earn outside of grouping)
You want me to move away? Dream on, Vanguard is 1 of my best hope to have a nice MMO, no matter how unlikely it is to happen.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Want me to explain again for you? Ok.... Yet again :
You are ok with someone being screwed, as long as it's not you.
No, it doesn't. And no, it isn't.
A person who groups and/or raids consistently is investing in the community of the game. They are playing the game as it's designed to be played (assuming that grouping/raiding is central to the game's design). There is no logic whatsoever in rewarding people who circumvent that core aspect of the game, and allowing them to be better at something than anyone else.
This may not be true for all games. But it is true for Vanguard. Which begs the question; why do you feel it even remotely appropriate to change the core philosophy of this game? If it's not for you, move on. Find something closer to your desires. That's why different companies make different games. You don't want what this game offers, and there's nothing in the world wrong with that. But what fails all logical explanation is why you insist that the people supporting Vanguard not get what is both offered by Sigil, and desired by it's supporters.
In a game designed with solo'ing as a core concept, I'd agree with you. But not all games need be designed that way, or are even saught by all gamers. And that is only true of gamers that feel they have failed if they are not 'the best'. Believe it or not, a lot of gamers don't give a rat's ass about the status of other players. They play to conquer content, and to progress. If they can do that, it's meaningless for them what anyone else has or can do. They aren't so insecure that they have to be #1 to enjoy themselves. You don't believe that, which speaks volumes about your personality (not necissarily negatively). But your personality is not the only personality.
From all evidence available, Vanguard is about the furthest from your desires as a game could be. Everything you loathe will be in Vanguard. Which is what makes it so unbelievable that you think you can change it into the game you desire. And what makes it insulting as hell that you have so little respect for the desires of all the people supporting Vanguard for what it is offering.
You might be annoyed with me because you think you have to repeat your same tired arguments. But I find you irritating because you see everything as simple black and white. Your opinion is the only valid opinion in your eyes, and no game should ever be made in other other terms. You show no repsect at all for the desires of gamers who want exactly that which you hate. And you can't seem to fathom the concept that you can go to many other games and get far far closer to your desires than what Vanguard offers. You instead insist that all the gamers that want this game to do exactly what it promises to do take a hike, just so that you get what you want here, rather than elsewhere.
It's arrogant, it's disrespectful, and it boggles the mind.
-Feyshtey-
I don't want easier Raids (in fact I want them harder than EQ), I just want shorter ones.
I want to be able to get to the final mob much faster without killing 1 Zillion pointless mobs that don't give you XP anyway.
Also respawn times should be shorter (really .........camping for hours a mob is not fun)
I believe that 4 hours max, is enough for a good raid.
Yes I play eq, and have been on may raids, and even the raid leader for a few guilds. Most of the raid content my guilds can do in 2 hours, we set aside a 6 hour raid time on saturday but that ussually involes hitting more than 1 raid mob.
And what anofalye is requesting is dumb, I would hate to see a game were everything can be gotten thru farming. There is nothing wrong with putting challenging raid content into the game so that it take many people to gain the best gear in the game. Once again your just one of the NGG's that want everything given to them, you should go play non mmorpgs you'll be happier.
And to those raid geared morons that can't play well they are almost always a ebayer. Not everyone is good enough to be a raider, some just don't have what it takes. soloing does have its own challenge, but should never be the main stream for any mmorpg.
Oky STE, I was just not understanding what you meant. Sound wise to me.
To the insulting crew: Anofalye say dumb stuff and we, raiders, are roxor skills or ebay... *shrug* You prove my point more then you could even think of. I never ask for farming, it could be challenge of farming, as long as it is done solo or grouped. Both solutions are acceptable with me. Like some others you rather just get rid of talented player who can bring challenge inside the grouping and the soloing game. But a better soloing game is not something that would harm a MMO, it would help it. Fighting solo needs lead to games like WoW...
Soloing deserve not to be the main stream, I never ask that, I ask that soloing grant the BEST soloing gear, I dont care if outside of soloing the soloing gear is pointless. Grouping deserve to grant the BEST grouping gear. A real raider will be perfectly happy if raiding give only raiding edges and is completely useless outside of raiding, someone saying otherwise is like the PvPers fans who love gankfest.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I´m wondering how will they handle the raiding in vanguard, mainly in terms of fairness to the players, my view of a game is that the content should be availble to every gamer on demand.
If a wants to organize a raid on a mob, should it be stoped form doing so because the spot/dungeon is camped 24/7 by a few select guild? will the players be forced to join raid bots to be able to raid?
I admit i dont have the knowledge of how vanguard is going to do this, but wow solved the problem with instancing the dungeon for the raid, so every raid would have a shot at the game content for raids is just plain stupid and would lead to player abuse.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
They've said that many of the named mobs, and mobs needed for progressions, will be quest triggered. Also, they've said that there will be named in dungeons along what they call adventure routes, that only spawn when triggered by the actions of a group, or loot drops, etc. Those specific mobs are only attackable by the group that triggered them.
The reasoning behind this is that they don't want a group or raid to spend a bunch of time working towards a mob kill, and have some other group swipe it. I'm sure there are some considerations for availability in this too.
-Feyshtey-
this game looks awesome,when will it be released?
Basically Kem0sabe, as Feyshtey said the raid mob spawn will be triggered by an item.
What that means?
It means that throughout the game, players will be able to find certain items that will allow the owner and their fellow group/raid members, to spawn a certain mob that only that particular raid force will be able to engage.
Therefore you won't see in Vanguard any UBER guild camping a mob for hours, allowing anyone to enjoy raids, without wasting hours waiting for their turn to kill a Boss.