Was I the only one that thought this thread was going to be about Guild Wars 2?
well actually I did as well. it adds to my research on how marketing effects the blind MMO market consumers that fall for the same cleaver marketing tactics over and over again..
I tried UO when it was pre-Trammel and I hated the game....There were alot of griefing jerkoffs that absolutely ruined that game.....ALot of people bitched when Trammel was introduced, but IIRC UO stated that it actually increased the playerbase quite a bit and many of them stayed subbed.
Me too. I played beta .. and jumped ship when EQ was released. There is a reason why UO is never that popular compared to EQ.
Was I the only one that thought this thread was going to be about Guild Wars 2?
well actually I did as well. it adds to my research on how marketing effects the blind MMO market consumers that fall for the same cleaver marketing tactics over and over again..
Marketing effort may be successful to entice people to buy, but why would you play it long term if you don't like the game?
I played WOW for years (and recently less so because it is getting boring, and that i can play D3) .. no marketing effort can get me to play more than a few hours. In fact, most MMO trials lasted less than that for me.
And buying is less and less relevant since more and more MMOs are F2P.
"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."
This is exactly why I stopped playing UO. In order to continue playing UO, I had to play like a ganker/PvPer. I had to fight with the best PvP means (archery or magic, not melee or my bard-skills I loved so much), and I had to travel in big groups and constantly deal with the gankers we ran into. This simply is not fun for me, so I quit.
FFA PvP is fun for people who like hardcore PvP. If you don't like hardcore PvP, it makes the PvE unplayable because of all the gankers you run into. So a game needs to do one of three things:
1. Decide it's meant for people who like PvP, and go FFA PvP. This will alienate people who don't like 100% PvP (most players).
2. Decide it wants a toned-down PvP system where people who don't like PvP can easily avoid it. This will alienate hardcore PvPers (minority of players).
3. Come up with a system that allows for FFA PvP but somehow puts a leash on the gankers.
No one has yet accomplished #3 (to my knowledge). Word of Darkness might have a solution (gankers can meet perma-death, while non-gankers won't, via Blood Hunts being called on gankers who constantly kill other vampires, a potent violation of the Traditions). Since this game won't be out for many years, it'll be a while til we see if this works.
I am not against group finder, fast travel etc. They have their place but for me they exist because the games themselves are not very imaginative. When there is nothing to do during your travel then by all means put in fast travel. But a well designed game does not need fast travel.
If more games took the approach of how to get people together and give them tools to make content for themselves (Eve is excellent at this). Instead of tools to make life easy as possible and remove great possibilities for player made content and drama. We may see a good mmo yet.
Now I have a question for you. Are the rest of us allowed to have an opinon that you don't like?
Opinions are fine, but you have to be realistic with your opinions. I've got plenty of opinions that I recognize will never be implemented. In fact, there are plenty that should never be implemented. I understand why and I accept that conclusion.
Far too many people think just because they came up with something in their head, it's the best idea ever and everyone ought to be catering to them.
If more games took the approach of how to get people together and give them tools to make content for themselves (Eve is excellent at this). Instead of tools to make life easy as possible and remove great possibilities for player made content and drama. We may see a good mmo yet.
Now it's been years since I played EvE, but it was probably the best example of a game that dearly needs fast travel. If you're going anywhere distant, you set your course and go watch TV. Maybe in a half hour or so, you come back to see if you've finally arrived.
I don't want to watch TV, I want to play a game. If I wanted to watch TV, I'd turn the computer off.
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."
Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:
"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."
And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
We do know what we are asking for. A good game that people like myself enjoy. Get over yourself. I don't go into all of your games and ask them to remove or add things I want. I ask for another game.
Then again, you are the kind of guy whose opinions spawn rehash after rehash of the same game.
"Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?""
You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for that. SWTOR was a better game for not having LFD. Of course the game had a laundry list of unrelated problems .. but thats another topic.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."
Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:
"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."
And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
Cross server dungeon finders, characrters of opposing factions on one account on the same server, and cross server pvp ques are in fact the death of community. I know generation occupy has profound ADD, I have some of my own so I am fully aware of this, but a little bit of effort to have fun in an mmo isn't a bad thing. Everything doesn't have to be spoon fed to you. Everquest and UO were like steak houses. WoW is McDonalds, just because they server more burgers than I do steaks doesn't mean its a better joint to eat at.
First the problem with trammel was that it was targeted at a group that by that point had already quit or had no interest in the game. It was the first NGE patch, so it just ailenaten the people that liked the game as it was.
Now for the other complaints:
Dungoen finder: Nothing wrong with it but when you make it cross server it just creates jerks and ninjas because the people you are grouping with are now nameless. You know you will never ever see them again. (same with cross server instance pvp)
Fast Travel: Nothing wrong with fast travel but it should be in the fourm of mounts and bus, not flight points where your basicly just in a loading screen, nor should it be instance travel where you are just in a loading screen.
Auction Houses: Player vendors are way better but AH in no way hurt a game.
Full Loot PvP: Only a small group of gankers want true full loot.
Battleground: They are boring and kill open world pvp. PvP should be about defeating the emeny faction not about getting the pvp coins so you can get that next piece of armor.
Best stuff isn't barred from casuals but it shouldn't just be handed out . In a gear game the goal is to get the best stuff, if the best stuff is super easy to get why would anyone play? If you want to pay 60+ for an online trophy, why not just go to a trophy shop and have one made? it would be cheaper...
But thats just IMO... not that it more right then yours.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
[...]
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
Why in the world you're making equality sign between limits on full loot FFA PvP and no AH or Dungeon Finders & Arena type of gameplay?
You're just trolling? I am just puzzled.
Newsflash - I am all for limits in FFA PvP.
Actually I think Trammel was GOOD IDEA.
Just implemented badly and TOO LATE.
Still I would like an mmorpg without AH, but with player shops.
Mmorpg without instanced dungeons grind that you have to do over and over, but also without automagical LFG tool.
Fast travel is ok - if it has LIMITS and is not 'I go absolutely everywhere instanly at all times in all circumstances'.
"Best stuff barred from casuals" - maybe hardcore PvP'ers from DFO or something - no idea.
==============
You're either intentionally trolling or maybe you're putting whole sandbox crowd into one 'bag' with so called "reds" / hardcore PvP griefers from UO.
Newsflash - actually most sandbox people on mmorpg.com want sandbox with certain limits and with solutions to many sandbox griefer&similar problems that were implemented into UO and SWG long months or years after release.
Like Trammel in UO or way to keep your house after you unsubscribed, but at same time removing it from open world. etc
You're sorry mistaken if you think most sandboxers here voice for releasing UO like it was in Day 1.
We had worse version of that, focused almsot purely on PvP - is called DFO.
How that ended up all knows. (yeah was alot of fun for hardcore pvp'ers, but ultimatelly only for them and they were always miniority in UO).
Now it's been years since I played EvE, but it was probably the best example of a game that dearly needs fast travel. If you're going anywhere distant, you set your course and go watch TV. Maybe in a half hour or so, you come back to see if you've finally arrived.
I don't want to watch TV, I want to play a game. If I wanted to watch TV, I'd turn the computer off.
I have to agree with this, the travel system in EVE is absolutely horrid. At least in other games you get to observe scenery or do stuff while you travel, EVE doesn't really work that way. 30 jumps there, 30 jumps here... I like EVE, but this... >_<
And it would be OK if you could watch TV but autopilot is too dangerous.
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
[...]
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
You're either intentionally trolling or maybe you're putting whole sandbox crowd into one 'bag' with so called "reds" / hardcore PvP griefers from UO.
No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.
I have to agree with the poster above, except for the last point (I believe hardcore players are detrimental to any game they're in).
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Originally posted by Irus
Outdated and bad mechanics are things like trinity, instancing, and manual grouping. What you are discussing isn't mechanics, it's more like features and styling.
Trinity is not a bad thing
I disagree.
Instancing is new MMO feature so they don't have to make large perssistent worlds like the old days.
Well, actually, it was a "solution" to random difficulties and other things, and it's definitely outdated now.
Manual grouping builds a community.
In my opinion, it does the opposite. Load up GW2: everyone works together. Load up TSW: everyone competes against each other. Manual grouping is evil and is an outdated mechanic related to older styles of coding. Automatic grouping is how real life works, we build communities just fine.
If you don't want to play with other people can't say anything to change that.
Manual grouping supports NOT playing with others, so I seriously have no idea where you pulled this out of.
But, hey, dinosaurs will be dinosaurs.
I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people. There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."
Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:
"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."
And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
The argument against the group/dungeon finder by that minority is that a dungeonfinder 'is what ruined the community in WoW' which I think is patently absurd. The WoW community was toxic before the inclusion of the dungeonfinder. I had quit WoW after BC, skipped WotLK and ONLY came back before Cata released because a friend told me about the dungeonfinder.
I've said it countless times: SWTOR is NOT WoW with Lightsabers. If they had intended to be a WoW clone, they would've ended up with a better game. A clone, yes, but a BETTER GAME.
Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."
Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:
"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."
Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:
"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."
And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.
Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.
Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?
Honestly, I'm not sure what YOU are asking for...?
The thing is simple: everybody has at some point had some great experience with a MMORPG. And the something changed and it all turned bad.
Fair enough, that was the game developers choice... sometimes they react, sometimes they don't.
But usually the game will now be no longer as good as it was before.
Which is perfectly normal as "the gameplay experience may change".
The question is just: what was that change that ruined the game?
To be honest, the one big change that ruined the MMORPG genre was for me gaming companies setting their eyes on casual gamers as targets.
Suddenly games had to be "easy", had to be "accessable" for those people who don't want to spend 40+ hours each week gaming. *eeek*
And that sort of kickstarted the whole decline: new features had to be added to make things even more easy, simple. I mean look at SWTOR's friggin' LFG tool!
Why is it needed? Because players are no longer capable of communicating with each other.
They see some people spam LFG, figure as they also need a group they should just spam LFG as well, and then everybody gets pissy because nobody actually reacts to any of the LFG spam.
Had one of these spammers just straightened his balls and spoken to the other spammers, yes, maybe they could have come to an agreement where maybe another quest is done first but the group then goes on to the one that our "hero" actually wanted to do...
So, are people clinging to "outdated" or "bad" game mechanics?
First, this is all very much in the eye of the beholder!
I always treasured the RPG part of MMORPGs, not because I wanted to go "oh sire, it is me, your humble servant. May I taketh a minute of you precious time..." etc. but because that character role stood clearly on its own, fighting was not about who is the faster twitcher but about level, attributes, abilities, yes, gear.
And yes, no matter how outdated people may consider such a system, I think it is truer to what MMORPGs were/are about than what "modern" game mechanics we see these days.
Second, some "modern" game mechanics are really nothing but gimmicks.
Looking at GW2's Eternal Battlefield, I would congratulate ANet on the smarts to bring back a tried and true classic (see, already we are actually already off point as an outdated concept beats the crap out of most modern PvP concepts), BUT sadly they have turned the 3 faction system and the "RvR" into hollow shells.
Hollow shells that are fine enough to make the casual gamer with their need for instant gratification go "yeah!"... at least for a short while when their lack of commitment becomes obvious and the more commited EBers see the novelty of this "WvW tournament system" fade away.
To be honest, I guess it's maybe a bit like driving a car: take a modern car, all technology and what not where you even have senors that will allow you to determine which passenger just passed gas. Woohoo!
Now, take an oldtimer: nothing of that fancy mic-n-mac, just bare bones.
Both cars have a good chance to get you were you want to go... but the classic will probably require more care to do so: no automatic "please clean your screen now" warning, no GPS leading straight into a ditch, 50,000 pages manual you have to read thru to find out that that red light means there is a red light on... ;-)
And just like that oldtimer of a car, these oldtimers of games require just that extra step of "work"...
No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.
I'm sorry but it is true!
People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.
Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.
The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.
Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.
Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!
And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?
Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.
And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...
fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!
I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?
Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.
It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.
And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.
So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it!
No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.
I'm sorry but it is true!
People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.
Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.
The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.
Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.
Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!
And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?
Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.
And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...
fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!
I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?
Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.
It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.
And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.
So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it!
It's the same reason people remember their first relationship with such fondness. It was a completely new experience at the time. All the relationships afterwards usually pale in comparison to that first one because none can re-capture that feeling. Women (for me at least) and MMO's have more in common than we think.
I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people. There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.
If a player doesn't want to communicate, he's not going to.
If you have soft grouping, the player will contribute to the group.
If you have manual grouping, all you end up with is a tagger of some sort who walks around by himself almost never joining anything because it's a commitment (while soft grouping isn't).
There shouldn't be and can't be any strategy in any non-challenging event. On the other hand, go find a deserted DE a bit higher level or go to the dungeons and you'll find plenty of strategy. The reason people solo on quests is not because of soft grouping (which most games do not have - where did manual grouping help WoW? Where does it help TSW?), it's because the quests are soloable. Which is fine. Except, in GW2, groups actually have an effect on events so having multiple players doesn't trivialize content, nor does it create a leveling problem as it does in other games.
And I am not sure what you mean by communication? What do you want people to say? Did you speak to them? You say hi, they'll probably say hi just fine.
People rezing is, to me, far more significant than people "communicating" by throwing around random meaningless comments. Tbh, I am not sure what you are referring to. I haven't seen any communication in WoW even in dungeons. You can go through a dungeon without anyone saying a word.
Where is your evidence that manual grouping is superior to soft grouping? Because I don't see it anywhere. In fact, Rift's optional auto-group feature has significantly enhanced my community experience.
I think the glory in MMORPG gaming can return, but you need mystery, danger, and freedom (to explore) and not have players as quest puppets directed by NPC's.
Well, yes... alas, here is the problem: if you don't give the players something that they are supposed to do, they won't know what to do ;-)
I remeber my first MMORPG more than a decade ago, of course there were quests in there, but many I just ignored, had my Ranger shoulder his bow instead and go out into the countryside to find monster that were of fitting level for a fight.
Now, I might have met up with other people and we may have teamed up for taking down this or that mob, but to us there was never this "hey, I need to run this quest, wanna join?" moment.
The fun was in just going out there and see what one finds...
Now, look at games these days - with GW2 being probably the most extreme example - but if the gamer isn't taken by the hand, he'll just stand there and without a clue what to do.
Which is understandable, given that today's gamers don't have the time/drive to invest a lot into a MMORPG game: it needs to allow them to progress fast to "endgame" at which point... well... usually they find there isn't much of it to the game and leave for the next one.
That maybe "endgame" could be something that they could create themselves, that is beyond their scope of understanding these games. :-(
No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.
Didn't some poster already give you pretty good arguments?
Maybe it's all just a matter of opinion, eh?
I don't like fast travel, for instance. I prefer moving by foot, vehicles, mounts, special installations, w/e. It makes it feel more like an adventure to me. Fast travel feels too gamey and loses authenticity.
I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people. There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.
If a player doesn't want to communicate, he's not going to.
If you have soft grouping, the player will contribute to the group.
If you have manual grouping, all you end up with is a tagger of some sort who walks around by himself almost never joining anything because it's a commitment (while soft grouping isn't).
There shouldn't be and can't be any strategy in any non-challenging event. On the other hand, go find a deserted DE a bit higher level or go to the dungeons and you'll find plenty of strategy. The reason people solo on quests is not because of soft grouping (which most games do not have - where did manual grouping help WoW? Where does it help TSW?), it's because the quests are soloable. Which is fine. Except, in GW2, groups actually have an effect on events so having multiple players doesn't trivialize content, nor does it create a leveling problem as it does in other games.
And I am not sure what you mean by communication? What do you want people to say? Did you speak to them? You say hi, they'll probably say hi just fine.
People rezing is, to me, far more significant than people "communicating" by throwing around random meaningless comments. Tbh, I am not sure what you are referring to. I haven't seen any communication in WoW even in dungeons. You can go through a dungeon without anyone saying a word.
Where is your evidence that manual grouping is superior to soft grouping? Because I don't see it anywhere. In fact, Rift's optional auto-group feature has significantly enhanced my community experience.
I think it's the fact that you don't understand how important communication is, that, well, gives you (IMO) a bit of an odd look on things.
I think we can agree that in just about any MMORPG when you log in at roughly the same time each day you will start seeing "the usual suspects".
Now, you have 2 options: ignore them or try to "bond" with them.
Me, personally, I'd feel a bit like a moron if I were to run to each oh them and go like "hey, my name is so-and-so, do you want to be my friend?"
But on the other side you may just come across somebody who is in need of help. Just a quick jump in, help him/her kill that mob or even just heal him/her, and a simple communication may follow: "hey, thanks man, yeah, they jumped me out of nowhere." - "no problem dude, I know this spot, happens all the time... there is a better spot a bit to the left, you want me to show you?" - "hey sure, cool, I could really use some XP/gold" - "if you want to we can team up? makes things a bit easier?" - "nice, definitely!"
Of course he may also just run off without saying anything.
The point is if you don't try you will never know!
GW2's soft grouping takes that need completely out of the game: you are at the right spot at the right time and you are in a group. But you will probably never know a single of your "fellow adventurers" in that "group".
Frankly, I think I'm old enough to judge if I want to play with somebody or not. So, being auto-group would be my worst nightmare: "ah, shit, played with him, what a douche, played with her, clueless like a headless chicken, played with him, Napoleon complex10... thanks but no thanks" - "sorry, you were auto-grouped"
So, just remember that communication shares a lot with community ;-) (I know, sound like something from a motivational speech, but hey, it's true...)
But yes, you are also right that games fail to use natural chances to make grouping more, well, natural.
When I played the first TSW BWE I felt like FC somehow just didn't see the obvious moments to make people group.
I mean, heck, here I am, a complete Templar freshman and I'm send out alone to investigate a completely unknown situation?
Not even something like, hey, here is your handler? Or even better: make me join up as a team - and no, I'm not talking auto-group but rather have an NPC give a speanybody wanna join me exploring that forestech about how teaming up can help you/save your butt.
It's these moments of "okay guys, anybody up for joining me having a look at these woods? Okay, cool, may see you other guys then later in town" where naturally grouping can come. Or should come... if they were there...
Comments
Was I the only one that thought this thread was going to be about Guild Wars 2?
well actually I did as well. it adds to my research on how marketing effects the blind MMO market consumers that fall for the same cleaver marketing tactics over and over again..
but I digress. OP makes a interesting point.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Me too. I played beta .. and jumped ship when EQ was released. There is a reason why UO is never that popular compared to EQ.
If it is not the first, no one will remember it.
Marketing effort may be successful to entice people to buy, but why would you play it long term if you don't like the game?
I played WOW for years (and recently less so because it is getting boring, and that i can play D3) .. no marketing effort can get me to play more than a few hours. In fact, most MMO trials lasted less than that for me.
And buying is less and less relevant since more and more MMOs are F2P.
This is exactly why I stopped playing UO. In order to continue playing UO, I had to play like a ganker/PvPer. I had to fight with the best PvP means (archery or magic, not melee or my bard-skills I loved so much), and I had to travel in big groups and constantly deal with the gankers we ran into. This simply is not fun for me, so I quit.
FFA PvP is fun for people who like hardcore PvP. If you don't like hardcore PvP, it makes the PvE unplayable because of all the gankers you run into. So a game needs to do one of three things:
1. Decide it's meant for people who like PvP, and go FFA PvP. This will alienate people who don't like 100% PvP (most players).
2. Decide it wants a toned-down PvP system where people who don't like PvP can easily avoid it. This will alienate hardcore PvPers (minority of players).
3. Come up with a system that allows for FFA PvP but somehow puts a leash on the gankers.
No one has yet accomplished #3 (to my knowledge). Word of Darkness might have a solution (gankers can meet perma-death, while non-gankers won't, via Blood Hunts being called on gankers who constantly kill other vampires, a potent violation of the Traditions). Since this game won't be out for many years, it'll be a while til we see if this works.
Opinions are fine, but you have to be realistic with your opinions. I've got plenty of opinions that I recognize will never be implemented. In fact, there are plenty that should never be implemented. I understand why and I accept that conclusion.
Far too many people think just because they came up with something in their head, it's the best idea ever and everyone ought to be catering to them.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Now it's been years since I played EvE, but it was probably the best example of a game that dearly needs fast travel. If you're going anywhere distant, you set your course and go watch TV. Maybe in a half hour or so, you come back to see if you've finally arrived.
I don't want to watch TV, I want to play a game. If I wanted to watch TV, I'd turn the computer off.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
We do know what we are asking for. A good game that people like myself enjoy. Get over yourself. I don't go into all of your games and ask them to remove or add things I want. I ask for another game.
Then again, you are the kind of guy whose opinions spawn rehash after rehash of the same game.
"Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?""
You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for that. SWTOR was a better game for not having LFD. Of course the game had a laundry list of unrelated problems .. but thats another topic.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Cross server dungeon finders, characrters of opposing factions on one account on the same server, and cross server pvp ques are in fact the death of community. I know generation occupy has profound ADD, I have some of my own so I am fully aware of this, but a little bit of effort to have fun in an mmo isn't a bad thing. Everything doesn't have to be spoon fed to you. Everquest and UO were like steak houses. WoW is McDonalds, just because they server more burgers than I do steaks doesn't mean its a better joint to eat at.
First the problem with trammel was that it was targeted at a group that by that point had already quit or had no interest in the game. It was the first NGE patch, so it just ailenaten the people that liked the game as it was.
Now for the other complaints:
Dungoen finder: Nothing wrong with it but when you make it cross server it just creates jerks and ninjas because the people you are grouping with are now nameless. You know you will never ever see them again. (same with cross server instance pvp)
Fast Travel: Nothing wrong with fast travel but it should be in the fourm of mounts and bus, not flight points where your basicly just in a loading screen, nor should it be instance travel where you are just in a loading screen.
Auction Houses: Player vendors are way better but AH in no way hurt a game.
Full Loot PvP: Only a small group of gankers want true full loot.
Battleground: They are boring and kill open world pvp. PvP should be about defeating the emeny faction not about getting the pvp coins so you can get that next piece of armor.
Best stuff isn't barred from casuals but it shouldn't just be handed out . In a gear game the goal is to get the best stuff, if the best stuff is super easy to get why would anyone play? If you want to pay 60+ for an online trophy, why not just go to a trophy shop and have one made? it would be cheaper...
But thats just IMO... not that it more right then yours.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Why in the world you're making equality sign between limits on full loot FFA PvP and no AH or Dungeon Finders & Arena type of gameplay?
You're just trolling? I am just puzzled.
Newsflash - I am all for limits in FFA PvP.
Actually I think Trammel was GOOD IDEA.
Just implemented badly and TOO LATE.
Still I would like an mmorpg without AH, but with player shops.
Mmorpg without instanced dungeons grind that you have to do over and over, but also without automagical LFG tool.
Fast travel is ok - if it has LIMITS and is not 'I go absolutely everywhere instanly at all times in all circumstances'.
"Best stuff barred from casuals" - maybe hardcore PvP'ers from DFO or something - no idea.
==============
You're either intentionally trolling or maybe you're putting whole sandbox crowd into one 'bag' with so called "reds" / hardcore PvP griefers from UO.
Newsflash - actually most sandbox people on mmorpg.com want sandbox with certain limits and with solutions to many sandbox griefer&similar problems that were implemented into UO and SWG long months or years after release.
Like Trammel in UO or way to keep your house after you unsubscribed, but at same time removing it from open world. etc
You're sorry mistaken if you think most sandboxers here voice for releasing UO like it was in Day 1.
We had worse version of that, focused almsot purely on PvP - is called DFO.
How that ended up all knows. (yeah was alot of fun for hardcore pvp'ers, but ultimatelly only for them and they were always miniority in UO).
I have to agree with this, the travel system in EVE is absolutely horrid. At least in other games you get to observe scenery or do stuff while you travel, EVE doesn't really work that way. 30 jumps there, 30 jumps here... I like EVE, but this... >_<
And it would be OK if you could watch TV but autopilot is too dangerous.
No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.
The argument against the group/dungeon finder by that minority is that a dungeonfinder 'is what ruined the community in WoW' which I think is patently absurd. The WoW community was toxic before the inclusion of the dungeonfinder. I had quit WoW after BC, skipped WotLK and ONLY came back before Cata released because a friend told me about the dungeonfinder.
I've said it countless times: SWTOR is NOT WoW with Lightsabers. If they had intended to be a WoW clone, they would've ended up with a better game. A clone, yes, but a BETTER GAME.
Honestly, I'm not sure what YOU are asking for...?
The thing is simple: everybody has at some point had some great experience with a MMORPG. And the something changed and it all turned bad.
Fair enough, that was the game developers choice... sometimes they react, sometimes they don't.
But usually the game will now be no longer as good as it was before.
Which is perfectly normal as "the gameplay experience may change".
The question is just: what was that change that ruined the game?
To be honest, the one big change that ruined the MMORPG genre was for me gaming companies setting their eyes on casual gamers as targets.
Suddenly games had to be "easy", had to be "accessable" for those people who don't want to spend 40+ hours each week gaming. *eeek*
And that sort of kickstarted the whole decline: new features had to be added to make things even more easy, simple. I mean look at SWTOR's friggin' LFG tool!
Why is it needed? Because players are no longer capable of communicating with each other.
They see some people spam LFG, figure as they also need a group they should just spam LFG as well, and then everybody gets pissy because nobody actually reacts to any of the LFG spam.
Had one of these spammers just straightened his balls and spoken to the other spammers, yes, maybe they could have come to an agreement where maybe another quest is done first but the group then goes on to the one that our "hero" actually wanted to do...
So, are people clinging to "outdated" or "bad" game mechanics?
First, this is all very much in the eye of the beholder!
I always treasured the RPG part of MMORPGs, not because I wanted to go "oh sire, it is me, your humble servant. May I taketh a minute of you precious time..." etc. but because that character role stood clearly on its own, fighting was not about who is the faster twitcher but about level, attributes, abilities, yes, gear.
And yes, no matter how outdated people may consider such a system, I think it is truer to what MMORPGs were/are about than what "modern" game mechanics we see these days.
Second, some "modern" game mechanics are really nothing but gimmicks.
Looking at GW2's Eternal Battlefield, I would congratulate ANet on the smarts to bring back a tried and true classic (see, already we are actually already off point as an outdated concept beats the crap out of most modern PvP concepts), BUT sadly they have turned the 3 faction system and the "RvR" into hollow shells.
Hollow shells that are fine enough to make the casual gamer with their need for instant gratification go "yeah!"... at least for a short while when their lack of commitment becomes obvious and the more commited EBers see the novelty of this "WvW tournament system" fade away.
To be honest, I guess it's maybe a bit like driving a car: take a modern car, all technology and what not where you even have senors that will allow you to determine which passenger just passed gas. Woohoo!
Now, take an oldtimer: nothing of that fancy mic-n-mac, just bare bones.
Both cars have a good chance to get you were you want to go... but the classic will probably require more care to do so: no automatic "please clean your screen now" warning, no GPS leading straight into a ditch, 50,000 pages manual you have to read thru to find out that that red light means there is a red light on... ;-)
And just like that oldtimer of a car, these oldtimers of games require just that extra step of "work"...
I'm sorry but it is true!
People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.
Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.
The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.
Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.
Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!
And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?
Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.
And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...
fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!
I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?
Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.
It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.
And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.
So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it!
I'm sorry but it is true!
People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.
Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.
The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.
Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.
Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!
And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?
Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.
And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...
fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!
I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?
Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.
It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.
And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.
So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it!
It's the same reason people remember their first relationship with such fondness. It was a completely new experience at the time. All the relationships afterwards usually pale in comparison to that first one because none can re-capture that feeling. Women (for me at least) and MMO's have more in common than we think.
If a player doesn't want to communicate, he's not going to.
If you have soft grouping, the player will contribute to the group.
If you have manual grouping, all you end up with is a tagger of some sort who walks around by himself almost never joining anything because it's a commitment (while soft grouping isn't).
There shouldn't be and can't be any strategy in any non-challenging event. On the other hand, go find a deserted DE a bit higher level or go to the dungeons and you'll find plenty of strategy. The reason people solo on quests is not because of soft grouping (which most games do not have - where did manual grouping help WoW? Where does it help TSW?), it's because the quests are soloable. Which is fine. Except, in GW2, groups actually have an effect on events so having multiple players doesn't trivialize content, nor does it create a leveling problem as it does in other games.
And I am not sure what you mean by communication? What do you want people to say? Did you speak to them? You say hi, they'll probably say hi just fine.
People rezing is, to me, far more significant than people "communicating" by throwing around random meaningless comments. Tbh, I am not sure what you are referring to. I haven't seen any communication in WoW even in dungeons. You can go through a dungeon without anyone saying a word.
Where is your evidence that manual grouping is superior to soft grouping? Because I don't see it anywhere. In fact, Rift's optional auto-group feature has significantly enhanced my community experience.
Well, yes... alas, here is the problem: if you don't give the players something that they are supposed to do, they won't know what to do ;-)
I remeber my first MMORPG more than a decade ago, of course there were quests in there, but many I just ignored, had my Ranger shoulder his bow instead and go out into the countryside to find monster that were of fitting level for a fight.
Now, I might have met up with other people and we may have teamed up for taking down this or that mob, but to us there was never this "hey, I need to run this quest, wanna join?" moment.
The fun was in just going out there and see what one finds...
Now, look at games these days - with GW2 being probably the most extreme example - but if the gamer isn't taken by the hand, he'll just stand there and without a clue what to do.
Which is understandable, given that today's gamers don't have the time/drive to invest a lot into a MMORPG game: it needs to allow them to progress fast to "endgame" at which point... well... usually they find there isn't much of it to the game and leave for the next one.
That maybe "endgame" could be something that they could create themselves, that is beyond their scope of understanding these games. :-(
Didn't some poster already give you pretty good arguments?
Maybe it's all just a matter of opinion, eh?
I don't like fast travel, for instance. I prefer moving by foot, vehicles, mounts, special installations, w/e. It makes it feel more like an adventure to me. Fast travel feels too gamey and loses authenticity.
I think it's the fact that you don't understand how important communication is, that, well, gives you (IMO) a bit of an odd look on things.
I think we can agree that in just about any MMORPG when you log in at roughly the same time each day you will start seeing "the usual suspects".
Now, you have 2 options: ignore them or try to "bond" with them.
Me, personally, I'd feel a bit like a moron if I were to run to each oh them and go like "hey, my name is so-and-so, do you want to be my friend?"
But on the other side you may just come across somebody who is in need of help. Just a quick jump in, help him/her kill that mob or even just heal him/her, and a simple communication may follow: "hey, thanks man, yeah, they jumped me out of nowhere." - "no problem dude, I know this spot, happens all the time... there is a better spot a bit to the left, you want me to show you?" - "hey sure, cool, I could really use some XP/gold" - "if you want to we can team up? makes things a bit easier?" - "nice, definitely!"
Of course he may also just run off without saying anything.
The point is if you don't try you will never know!
GW2's soft grouping takes that need completely out of the game: you are at the right spot at the right time and you are in a group. But you will probably never know a single of your "fellow adventurers" in that "group".
Frankly, I think I'm old enough to judge if I want to play with somebody or not. So, being auto-group would be my worst nightmare: "ah, shit, played with him, what a douche, played with her, clueless like a headless chicken, played with him, Napoleon complex10... thanks but no thanks" - "sorry, you were auto-grouped"
So, just remember that communication shares a lot with community ;-) (I know, sound like something from a motivational speech, but hey, it's true...)
But yes, you are also right that games fail to use natural chances to make grouping more, well, natural.
When I played the first TSW BWE I felt like FC somehow just didn't see the obvious moments to make people group.
I mean, heck, here I am, a complete Templar freshman and I'm send out alone to investigate a completely unknown situation?
Not even something like, hey, here is your handler? Or even better: make me join up as a team - and no, I'm not talking auto-group but rather have an NPC give a speanybody wanna join me exploring that forestech about how teaming up can help you/save your butt.
It's these moments of "okay guys, anybody up for joining me having a look at these woods? Okay, cool, may see you other guys then later in town" where naturally grouping can come. Or should come... if they were there...