Originally posted by heartless Originally posted by Kost Interesting, yet on 6/18/12 the OP posted this:http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5068284Seems like you've flip flopped rather suddenly, because you certainly seemed happy with the game then - and live is a pretty significant improvement over beta.
Nothing strange. The person had a good time at first but once he got the hang of the game and became more familiar with what it has to offer, he realized that it's not to his liking.
I couldn't agree more. Obviously there are issues with the game or there wouldn't be so many people flaming the OP and trying to defend TSW. The only good way to see a 'bad' thread buried is to not post in it.
? People will defend a game if they disagree with an opinion or argument. Try saying something bad that's opinionated in a GW2 thread, or heck, an EVE thread. People that enjoy those games will flock to defend the game and disagree with the OP. Doesn't necessarily mean that these games have issues, simply that people disagree with a viewpoint, and some will disagree vehemently.
Its not super complicated however getting actives and passives is what makes it interesting. So getting in and playing is easy for the masses. Also pvp is easier for the masses. No longer the need to have 3 bars of skill to keep track of to be able to compete in pvp. I think they ve made it accessible for more of the mmo population
Seems like you've flip flopped rather suddenly, because you certainly seemed happy with the game then - and live is a pretty significant improvement over beta.
He has a logical point though, if he only played the first area previously for example. Everything dies quicker, you're not stuck on one mob for a while. Move to Savage Coast and already you spend two times more on single mob or packs unless you've created a perfect build assuming that you actually like all the abilities and how it feels like etc. Move further and it's not getting any easier, if you want to experiment with other abilities and combat styles it makes you stuck on the same map for days or make you gimped in case you progress further.
I like the freeform char progression, but it certainly is not for impatient people. I'm frustrated my self having to grind AP stuck in one spot because I'm not satisfied with most of the abilities for their power or animations or effects, so I experiment with others and progress slow as hell having AP/SP here and there spread out.
Despite all of the lofty claims that "combat in TSW requires more effort than appeals to the mainstream", I honestly found it too painfully simple and easy in addition to clunky. Either my stats were high enough to faceroll or they weren't. Since most of the skills are essentially copies of one another, during beta I never once felt like any strategy or real thought was required. Especially since I could just slap on a deck, follow the instructions, and faceroll even more lazily.
The combat is just clunky, it's not a skill cap issue. Even the fans, or people who are interested like myself, admit this.
While you are all right to complain of players who blame the game for their own faults, OP never stated just what he dislikes about the combat. There's a ridiculous amount of assumptions going on in this thread. I could just as easily say, "If you're not enjoying the game, it's the players fault instead of the designers for not designing a playable game" to mock you all. But that's not very discussion-worthy, frankly, and we can all do better than that.
I think that you are wrong when saying you just "slap on a deck" and faceroll. This is probably do able once you have a lot of AP collected but in the early to mid game you still have to use your brain to see what abilities compliment eachother and think a bit about what you are doing. Most of the deck abilities are located in the outer ring and it takes a long time to unlock most of those, so while people are working towards decks, if they haven't done any work figuring out why the deck is synergised the way it is they will just be slapping random abilities that sound cool into the hotbar until they unlock the ones with the deck.
I even saw folk in chat last night saying things like " I was working towards X deck but this one weapon is amazing so im just going to use that, screw levelling a second one". They will probably be fine for a few zones then hit a massive brick wall, pop up on the forums saying the game is too hard and then ragequit.
Early to mid game? I just played the betas, ie Kingsmouth and whatever the area was after that. Choosing a deck and then pressing buttons at will worked perfectly fine for me.
I don't think you even know what a deck is then, your post makes no sense at all, you clearly didn't play very much of the game.
OP did you even read the abilities and combine them so that they have some synergy. Imho, you simply picked the wrong abilities and don't know how to build a proper deck...
^This.
I have found that the combat actually gets better as I get deeper into the wheel and find that synergy between skills makes skills I was using in Kingsmouth hit harder.
Now as I move further into the game it becomes more interesting and complex, for me the harder a game is to master the more enjoyable it is in the long run, I don't expect to master it in a week either it is an MMO and expect to play it for a few years.
The OP however said that he has not got the time or patience for it, which is fair enough. And there is no need to flame him, the game is not linear, Kingsmouth is the beginning area and as such does not require much effort and that suited the OP.
Each to their own, he put his hands up and in his opinion the combat is terrible and worse and, for him, it is since he did not go about it in the right way. It is a testament to the fact the game actually gets better the further you go with it as you cannot just turn up and do whatever, excellent news as far as I am concerned!
It is exactly as it is supposed to be
Ragnar Tornquist "But I think those who say that our combat is like WoW’s combat, they really haven’t gotten beyond the surface. At the beginning maybe it feels like that. But if you play for 12, 15, 20 hours, it’s quite clear that it’s radically different. It requires different techniques, it requires different approaches to survive in the world. It requires more movement, it requires more thought behind your abilities."
Combat is absolutely atrocious especially at an animation level. Its is dull, boring and requires little more than 2 skills and the right build, now I hate having to use 30 skills as much as the next player but TSW just outright failed in this respect.
I'm not a hater by a long shot, I loved every other aspect of TSW but for the reasons the OP points out and many others have I chose not to buy it (the first major MMO I have not bought since 2005)
I find it funny that the OP is calling The Secret World's combat boring and then saying he's going back to LOTR in the same breath. LOTRO has the dullest combat I've ever experienced in my life. To each his own I suppose.
Honestly, if combat alone could carry a game I'd still be playing Tera.
Combat is absolutely atrocious especially at an animation level. Its is dull, boring and requires little more than 2 skills
This statement makes it obvious you never played past Savage Coast, good luck with your two skills and fotm build at that point. You'd get crushed.
I honestly wonder why people even bother to pipe up if they have barely made any progress in the game, talk about a premature judgment. Just leads to misinformation, such as above, and falsely causes others to possibly neglect trying the game when they would have enjoyed it if they had.
I find it funny that the OP is calling The Secret World's combat boring and then saying he's going back to LOTR in the same breath. LOTRO has the dullest combat I've ever experienced in my life. To each his own I suppose.
Honestly, if combat alone could carry a game I'd still be playing Tera.
That is funny (as you said). Because I found LotRO combat far superior to TSW. HAHAHA! Really funny indeed!!!
In LotRO, every class has a different way to manage resources, instead of 1. In LotRO they have multiple classes with different abilities, not just 1 person with every ability. In LotRO you can choose from far over 7 skills at a time... not just 7.
I understand where the Original Poster is coming from. The combat in TSW feels flat at best. And to quote you, "to each their own I suppose."
TSW combat is horrible. I did the beta and have decided not to buy the game based on this single aspect.
You spend 90% of your time in a mmo in combat. If the combat isn't satisfing no matter that the rest of the game is awesome. There is no sense of the moves connecting, mash AOE buttons meters away from the mobs and all is fine.
The next MMO will be awesome. Until people reach the end game.
Are we still harping on about the animations? I spend my time like I do in any MMO, staring at the UI. I rarely even notice the animations.
1) I agree, the animations (besides jump) really aren't as bad as others tend to put it. Subjective, though.
2) The combat really is just bad, and poorly designed. You shouldn't be staring at your UI if you're supposed to be kiting/strafing things all the time, nor should you have so much reliance on the hotbar when moving requires WSAD inputs. The game could do *very* well to have a hotkey dedicated to left/right mouse click, perhaps in place of 6 and 7 (which are a bitch to reach anyway).
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Are we still harping on about the animations? I spend my time like I do in any MMO, staring at the UI. I rarely even notice the animations.
1) I agree, the animations (besides jump) really aren't as bad as others tend to put it. Subjective, though.
2) The combat really is just bad, and poorly designed. You shouldn't be staring at your UI if you're supposed to be kiting/strafing things all the time, nor should you have so much reliance on the hotbar when moving requires WSAD inputs. The game could do *very* well to have a hotkey dedicated to left/right mouse click, perhaps in place of 6 and 7 (which are a bitch to reach anyway).
What on earth do you do in other games that require you to move and use abilities?
I had games where I had 20 different keybinds and still have to move with WASD, you know you have more than one hand? If you are struggling that badly to hit the 7 you can always click it with the mouse.
Keep 6 and 7 for your "OH SHIT" buttons or things that you need to press less and reaching them constantly doesn't matter any more.
I'm not defending the combat in this game, it's not great at all, but its not the worst thing ever either, its just meh, MMO combat usually is pretty dull. TERA had nice combat but horribly bad everything else.
Combat is absolutely atrocious especially at an animation level. Its is dull, boring and requires little more than 2 skills
This statement makes it obvious you never played past Savage Coast, good luck with your two skills and fotm build at that point. You'd get crushed.
I honestly wonder why people even bother to pipe up if they have barely made any progress in the game, talk about a premature judgment. Just leads to misinformation, such as above, and falsely causes others to possibly neglect trying the game when they would have enjoyed it if they had.
No it doesn't, you can easily roll anything with a FOTM build, The game punishes you for not going FOTM. Many of which do pretty well with 2 buttons. I had a heal set up as my second weapon spender through most of the game and never used it, my primary was ranged so I would need to get close to use a damage spender. We have all seen people own with 2 buttons in any PvP video.
In fact he mentioned the major issue as the game goes on, things take longer to kill. Taking longer to kill when combat was so neglected in development, highlights the issues.
Combat has issues on every level, superficial as animations, mechanics such as build 5 resourses and then spend them, repeat all day everyday while you play. many of the skill tree abilities and passives need a revision.
Well, AoC was a strange monster, and while I liked it's combat way better - it's way messier in design as well. Hypocritical, I know.
Otherwise; DDO, FE and Tera all have decent combat that requires moving about, and namely because they are not 100% hotbar driven. Each has basic attacks tied to the mouse-clickers, the hotbar is either situational or heavy attacks with long timers - it's just smart design.
~but the fact you suggested I "click the 7 with my mouse cursor" means I lost a lot of respect for you in one fail swoop. Also, in most games you really don't have to move around so much at all. When one is designed to kick your ass unless you stay in motion, then you have to design inputs accordingly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
OP, I really wanted to take your post seriously, but then you had to say that your big complaint is with boring combat and you've gone back to LoTRO as if that's an improvement.
TL;DR- OP complains about combat in a MMO, then returns to another MMO with (arguably) worse combat.
Not sure I would go as far as to say it is worse but yeah...much as I love LoTR stating you're leaving this game and going to that one over combat is pretty laughable.
Still don't see what is so bad about the combat really. Seems the standard schtick to me. Suppose one could complain about that but really the whole bitching about combat seems more like a bandwagon effect at this point.
Also love how he says the game lacks content. Seen that from a few people that the more they go on about the game it becomes rather apparent they either haven't played it or played it for a beta weekend and that is it.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I have wanted to love this game, but I can't. It's just tedious. The combat is a horrible button mash fest. Everything else is stellar. The atmosphere is perfect, the quests are fine. But the combat is atrocious. AOC was sooo much better in this area. I've gone back to lotro and won't be renewing my sub. I appreciate TSW and what it's trying to be, but I don't have the time or patience for it. Instead of getting better, things just get worse as you progress. Crafting is a pain in the ass instead of something to look forward to. It seems like tedium and repetition are the games replacement for leveling up due to lack of content. Otherwise, a small area takes forever due to really slow advancement and the intention of keeping players in one area as long as possible. On top of that, there is very little reference to secret societies and all that. TOTALLY dissappointed...
Just little confused how you can even stand LOTR combat but don't like combat in TSW. It's been a very long time, and yes i played AOC, sense my heart raced when i was fighting in an MMO. I've died a number of times in TSW which makes me very happy, now i have to think, i have to know whats around me.
However; I think it's too simplistic. They should have made the combat somewhat more complex...maybe something like a skill combo like FF11 and FF14 use. Something that adds more strategy to the battles besides dodging everything in sight.
I have wanted to love this game, but I can't. It's just tedious. The combat is a horrible button mash fest. Everything else is stellar. The atmosphere is perfect, the quests are fine. But the combat is atrocious. AOC was sooo much better in this area. I've gone back to lotro and won't be renewing my sub. I appreciate TSW and what it's trying to be, but I don't have the time or patience for it. Instead of getting better, things just get worse as you progress. Crafting is a pain in the ass instead of something to look forward to. It seems like tedium and repetition are the games replacement for leveling up due to lack of content. Otherwise, a small area takes forever due to really slow advancement and the intention of keeping players in one area as long as possible. On top of that, there is very little reference to secret societies and all that. TOTALLY dissappointed...
I enjoyed the beta weekend a lot. No bugs, no crashes, browser worked great, graphics maxed out were nice. I was not sure at first, but after a bit of character progression and getting used to the controls, I had no issues with the gameplay. Although it did feel too themepark at times, when I slowed down and took things in, it wasn't an issue. The atmosphere and foreboding are great, however if you're just running through trying to "beat the game", you're going to miss out, and TSW probably isn't for you anyway. I'll buy on principle, because I respect and admire FC for creating something different and engaging. After AO and AOC, I felt like FC was a bit of a joke like most, but on my new gaming rig, TSW beta played smooth and was a real suprise. It also has a sense of mystery that NO mmo has ever had, which is fun. It reminds me of a Stephen King novel or something. Anyway, cheers all:)
Not funny, Op just mentioned he is going back to LOTR mmo, he didnt even compare the games. I assume OP has already invested time into LOTR so why not play that game again if TSW didn't fit him. Probably would have been better for the OP not to mention an "FYI" because lots of people would use that to discredit the OP... cheap move and sad.
Comments
Nothing strange. The person had a good time at first but once he got the hang of the game and became more familiar with what it has to offer, he realized that it's not to his liking.
I couldn't agree more. Obviously there are issues with the game or there wouldn't be so many people flaming the OP and trying to defend TSW. The only good way to see a 'bad' thread buried is to not post in it.
? People will defend a game if they disagree with an opinion or argument. Try saying something bad that's opinionated in a GW2 thread, or heck, an EVE thread. People that enjoy those games will flock to defend the game and disagree with the OP. Doesn't necessarily mean that these games have issues, simply that people disagree with a viewpoint, and some will disagree vehemently.He has a logical point though, if he only played the first area previously for example. Everything dies quicker, you're not stuck on one mob for a while. Move to Savage Coast and already you spend two times more on single mob or packs unless you've created a perfect build assuming that you actually like all the abilities and how it feels like etc. Move further and it's not getting any easier, if you want to experiment with other abilities and combat styles it makes you stuck on the same map for days or make you gimped in case you progress further.
I like the freeform char progression, but it certainly is not for impatient people. I'm frustrated my self having to grind AP stuck in one spot because I'm not satisfied with most of the abilities for their power or animations or effects, so I experiment with others and progress slow as hell having AP/SP here and there spread out.
I don't think you even know what a deck is then, your post makes no sense at all, you clearly didn't play very much of the game.
^This.
I have found that the combat actually gets better as I get deeper into the wheel and find that synergy between skills makes skills I was using in Kingsmouth hit harder.
Now as I move further into the game it becomes more interesting and complex, for me the harder a game is to master the more enjoyable it is in the long run, I don't expect to master it in a week either it is an MMO and expect to play it for a few years.
The OP however said that he has not got the time or patience for it, which is fair enough. And there is no need to flame him, the game is not linear, Kingsmouth is the beginning area and as such does not require much effort and that suited the OP.
Each to their own, he put his hands up and in his opinion the combat is terrible and worse and, for him, it is since he did not go about it in the right way. It is a testament to the fact the game actually gets better the further you go with it as you cannot just turn up and do whatever, excellent news as far as I am concerned!
It is exactly as it is supposed to be
Ragnar Tornquist "But I think those who say that our combat is like WoW’s combat, they really haven’t gotten beyond the surface. At the beginning maybe it feels like that. But if you play for 12, 15, 20 hours, it’s quite clear that it’s radically different. It requires different techniques, it requires different approaches to survive in the world. It requires more movement, it requires more thought behind your abilities."
Jebus the fanbois are rabid on this one.
Combat is absolutely atrocious especially at an animation level. Its is dull, boring and requires little more than 2 skills and the right build, now I hate having to use 30 skills as much as the next player but TSW just outright failed in this respect.
I'm not a hater by a long shot, I loved every other aspect of TSW but for the reasons the OP points out and many others have I chose not to buy it (the first major MMO I have not bought since 2005)
I find it funny that the OP is calling The Secret World's combat boring and then saying he's going back to LOTR in the same breath. LOTRO has the dullest combat I've ever experienced in my life. To each his own I suppose.
Honestly, if combat alone could carry a game I'd still be playing Tera.
This statement makes it obvious you never played past Savage Coast, good luck with your two skills and fotm build at that point. You'd get crushed.
I honestly wonder why people even bother to pipe up if they have barely made any progress in the game, talk about a premature judgment. Just leads to misinformation, such as above, and falsely causes others to possibly neglect trying the game when they would have enjoyed it if they had.
That is funny (as you said). Because I found LotRO combat far superior to TSW. HAHAHA! Really funny indeed!!!
In LotRO, every class has a different way to manage resources, instead of 1. In LotRO they have multiple classes with different abilities, not just 1 person with every ability. In LotRO you can choose from far over 7 skills at a time... not just 7.
I understand where the Original Poster is coming from. The combat in TSW feels flat at best. And to quote you, "to each their own I suppose."
Yeah, that truly is funny.
Like comparing a ferrari to a ten speed bike, have fun pedaling to the ettenmoors little buddy!
Right, when it comes to PvE combat, TSW is like a 10-speed bike and LotRO is like a Ferrari.
Although LotRO is still pretty weak in the combat category overall compared to other MMORPGs, TSW manages to leave you wanting even more.
TSW combat is horrible. I did the beta and have decided not to buy the game based on this single aspect.
You spend 90% of your time in a mmo in combat. If the combat isn't satisfing no matter that the rest of the game is awesome. There is no sense of the moves connecting, mash AOE buttons meters away from the mobs and all is fine.
The next MMO will be awesome. Until people reach the end game.
Are we still harping on about the animations? I spend my time like I do in any MMO, staring at the UI. I rarely even notice the animations.
The skill system reminds me of Guild Wars 1. You find some things that work really well together and it's like woooah.
1) I agree, the animations (besides jump) really aren't as bad as others tend to put it. Subjective, though.
2) The combat really is just bad, and poorly designed. You shouldn't be staring at your UI if you're supposed to be kiting/strafing things all the time, nor should you have so much reliance on the hotbar when moving requires WSAD inputs. The game could do *very* well to have a hotkey dedicated to left/right mouse click, perhaps in place of 6 and 7 (which are a bitch to reach anyway).
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
What on earth do you do in other games that require you to move and use abilities?
I had games where I had 20 different keybinds and still have to move with WASD, you know you have more than one hand? If you are struggling that badly to hit the 7 you can always click it with the mouse.
Keep 6 and 7 for your "OH SHIT" buttons or things that you need to press less and reaching them constantly doesn't matter any more.
I'm not defending the combat in this game, it's not great at all, but its not the worst thing ever either, its just meh, MMO combat usually is pretty dull. TERA had nice combat but horribly bad everything else.
No it doesn't, you can easily roll anything with a FOTM build, The game punishes you for not going FOTM. Many of which do pretty well with 2 buttons. I had a heal set up as my second weapon spender through most of the game and never used it, my primary was ranged so I would need to get close to use a damage spender. We have all seen people own with 2 buttons in any PvP video.
In fact he mentioned the major issue as the game goes on, things take longer to kill. Taking longer to kill when combat was so neglected in development, highlights the issues.
Combat has issues on every level, superficial as animations, mechanics such as build 5 resourses and then spend them, repeat all day everyday while you play. many of the skill tree abilities and passives need a revision.
/This
I never once noticed anything with the animations lol
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@SlickShoes
Well, AoC was a strange monster, and while I liked it's combat way better - it's way messier in design as well. Hypocritical, I know.
Otherwise; DDO, FE and Tera all have decent combat that requires moving about, and namely because they are not 100% hotbar driven. Each has basic attacks tied to the mouse-clickers, the hotbar is either situational or heavy attacks with long timers - it's just smart design.
~but the fact you suggested I "click the 7 with my mouse cursor" means I lost a lot of respect for you in one fail swoop. Also, in most games you really don't have to move around so much at all. When one is designed to kick your ass unless you stay in motion, then you have to design inputs accordingly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Just excuses cos the game requires some thought me thinks.
In fact with the graphics on high the animations of my guy shooting his AR are quite impressive, recoil, gunflash and gun smoke, what else you want.
Not sure I would go as far as to say it is worse but yeah...much as I love LoTR stating you're leaving this game and going to that one over combat is pretty laughable.
Still don't see what is so bad about the combat really. Seems the standard schtick to me. Suppose one could complain about that but really the whole bitching about combat seems more like a bandwagon effect at this point.
Also love how he says the game lacks content. Seen that from a few people that the more they go on about the game it becomes rather apparent they either haven't played it or played it for a beta weekend and that is it.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Just little confused how you can even stand LOTR combat but don't like combat in TSW. It's been a very long time, and yes i played AOC, sense my heart raced when i was fighting in an MMO. I've died a number of times in TSW which makes me very happy, now i have to think, i have to know whats around me.
+1
I agree. Although I would say, the game would be decent if the combat was good.
The combat is not terrible. It's very fun.
The battles are very punishing if you screw up.
However; I think it's too simplistic. They should have made the combat somewhat more complex...maybe something like a skill combo like FF11 and FF14 use. Something that adds more strategy to the battles besides dodging everything in sight.
I enjoyed the beta weekend a lot. No bugs, no crashes, browser worked great, graphics maxed out were nice. I was not sure at first, but after a bit of character progression and getting used to the controls, I had no issues with the gameplay. Although it did feel too themepark at times, when I slowed down and took things in, it wasn't an issue. The atmosphere and foreboding are great, however if you're just running through trying to "beat the game", you're going to miss out, and TSW probably isn't for you anyway. I'll buy on principle, because I respect and admire FC for creating something different and engaging. After AO and AOC, I felt like FC was a bit of a joke like most, but on my new gaming rig, TSW beta played smooth and was a real suprise. It also has a sense of mystery that NO mmo has ever had, which is fun. It reminds me of a Stephen King novel or something. Anyway, cheers all:)
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Both of these posts are by the same person. I don't know which one to believe.
Not funny, Op just mentioned he is going back to LOTR mmo, he didnt even compare the games. I assume OP has already invested time into LOTR so why not play that game again if TSW didn't fit him. Probably would have been better for the OP not to mention an "FYI" because lots of people would use that to discredit the OP... cheap move and sad.