Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
.
Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.
Welcome to the gaming industry
You are so lucky to get a job here !
Every year, we will reduce your salary,
BUT we'll expect you to produce better quality work (it's 2012, so no excuse for bugs in your code will be accepted)
AND in ever increasing volume (no excuse for a game to launch without masses of content all the way to endgame).
The gaming industry is a magical place. It's the only branch of industry where shareholders will not demand that your annual profits increase so that they get better dividends. Investors will be happy to lend you vast sums of money at great risk. If your game tanks and you cannot pay back the loan, they'll shrug and say: "Aww shucks, better luck next time. We didn't really need that $70M anyway. By the way, how much do you need for the next project ?"
Games are made by people, not machines. Labour cost is the major expense for any software company. Hardware and bandwidth for running an MMO is a relatively small part of the expense, always was.
Sadly what actually happens is that about 75% of higher cost game developers and support staff have been parking lot pink slipped right out of the industry and most development and support has been reduced to dismal levels and what little there is has been outsourced to cheaper markets like India.
On top of operations costs, hardware costs has come down dramatically due to cheaper labor, materials, competition and a huge over supply in the market.
I purchased the lifetime sub for TSW and get a discount on cash shop items. The shop is just cosmetic and as others have said, there is no advantage gained from the items. The game has had a wonderful release. The bugs I have found have been quickly dealt with by GM's. Even the questing bugs have been resolved in game. No waiting for the patch to fix a story mission. The GM;s are far more helpful than in other games I played.
I am sorry but you must be playing a very different game than I am playing, bugs take forever to fix, some are still in game that have been there since early beta, most times when they do manage to fix a bug it usually breaks again quickly or they manage to break something else in the process.
Granted the GMs have been working 24/7 moving people past broken quests, but frankly I did not buy the game to have a GM just jump me past all the buggy content, I actually bought the game to play WORKING content.
Not playing as yet, but in P2P/B2P MMO's every cash shop that has game balance altering items started of as a cash shop that did not have any such items.
You can see this in Lotro, DDO, WoW etc. It takes about one year for the gameplay altering items to emerge. This is done because gaming companies know many players do not like cash shops. But the defence is then, 'well nothing in the cash shop effects gameplay'. Indeed players will mount this defence for them, as we see the OP doing here.
Much later, after the complaints are a distant memory the game altering items appear. Players like me will do another thread complianing about it, but it is fait accompli by then.fait accompli by then.
I looked in the cash shop and saw some weird stuff that I knew I wouldn't want. Some of those titles they sell are just strange. If people want to pay money for them..more power to them.
7 missions and stuff that should have been in at launch hardly prove that they are on the ball with subscriber content.
Its a new game, you are free to give them the benefit of the doubt, although I suspect they will go down the same path as Age of Conan.
You would love that wouldn't you? people like you who were waiting for another AOC and AO launch disaster are already dis heartned so now you are pinning all your hopes on FC failing post launch. Gotto love your persistent and resiliant nature and obsession with failure of FC.
By the way what content they are releasing should have been part of launch? i was in closed beta and no content was cut off to be released at later date. Whatever we got in CB is now in release version.
People like me? Haha oh please. Dig through my post history and find all my FC failing posts. Oh wait, you wont. The only comments I have made about TSW is that:
a) I find the combat to be boring
b) I won't play a game which has both a cash shop and a subscription
Neither of these comments could hardly an obsession with the failure of FC. I knew the launch wouldnt be a disaster because I played the Beta. I just personally wont play until the above issues are resolved. FC will obviously milk the subscriptions for as long as they can, but I suspect that it will go F2P within the first year anyway.
What content are they releasing that should have been at launch?
- The nightmare modes for the two dungeons that were disabled because they were broken.
- The auction house.
I know they released an explanation for this, and that is fine, they should hold off releasing it until it is ready, but lets not kid ourselves.... it was launch content that they ran out of time for.
Not playing as yet, but in P2P/B2P MMO's every cash shop that has game balance altering items started of as a cash shop that did not have any such items.
You can see this in Lotro, DDO, WoW etc. It takes about one year for the gameplay altering items to emerge. This is done because gaming companies know many players do not like cash shops. But the defence is then, 'well nothing in the cash shop effects gameplay'. Indeed players will mount this defence for them, as we see the OP doing here.
Much later, after the complaints are a distant memory the game altering items appear. Players like me will do another thread complianing about it, but it is fait accompli by then.fait accompli by then.
Bingo. It opens the door for the pay 2 win that we all know FC are capable of (AoC PvP armor anyone?).
Man, all these analogies are not needed at all. Just ask yourself this.
How come guild wars 1 and 2 can manage without the sub?
I'm no gw fan but I hate to see people defend pure greed.
Sorry, you're getting another analogy.
GW1 can manage without a sub the same way that McDonalds can manage to sell you a meal for $5 while other places charge $100. Fact is, you're getting a different meal.
GW2 at this point in time hasn't managed anything. It doesn't release until august.
I don't defend pure greed. I defend having choice as a consumer. I do not want to play GW1 for free or even if you pay me, because I don't like the game and regardless of how much it costs, i find it to be terrible value. And that is what matters - VALUE, not cost.
At the same time, I'm happy to pay sub fees for EQ2 and TSW because those games deliver to me good value for the money that they ask me to pay. At the moment, My $15 a month can't buy me anything better than EQ2 and TSW in terms of MMO gaming. Neither SOE nor Funcom have increased their monthly fees in the last 10 years despite most other consumer products I buy almost doubling in price in that timespan.
When a free game can deliver to me the same value as a subscription game, i'll gladly play it. So far, no game has. (Well LoTRO, but LoTRO started out as a sub game and really, you need to pay nearly the equivalent of a sub to get the full experience).
If you're getting everything you want in an MMO out of Guild Wars... well.. why are you on here complaining about TSW prices? Unless you believe that TSW can give you something that your free game doesn't, you shouldn't even care. If tomorrow WoW starts charging people $200 a day to play... i'm still not going to give a shit and i'm not going to jump onto the WoW forums and bitch about it. If people think it's worth it, they can play it, it's their effin money.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.
I agree 100%.
As long as cash shop doesn't sell items that affect in-game power, more power to them!!!
The income from the cash shop will help fund future development, so it benefits everyone that is playing...even those who don't buy.
Bottom line, the only ones that are pissed about the CS are the people that are jealous they can't afford the fancy outfits/pets/titles.
Not playing as yet, but in P2P/B2P MMO's every cash shop that has game balance altering items started of as a cash shop that did not have any such items.
You can see this in Lotro, DDO, WoW etc. It takes about one year for the gameplay altering items to emerge. This is done because gaming companies know many players do not like cash shops. But the defence is then, 'well nothing in the cash shop effects gameplay'. Indeed players will mount this defence for them, as we see the OP doing here.
Much later, after the complaints are a distant memory the game altering items appear. Players like me will do another thread complianing about it, but it is fait accompli by the
This is very true and I'll be watching this game closely . STO started off the same way and turned into a cash grab with the lockboxes. If TSW goes that route I'll be out of here quick.
Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.
[mod edit]
Delusional?
Didn't SWTOR establish the a modern MMO costs MILLIONS to make? David Braben and Ian Bell made Elite. By themselves but that was back in the dark ages. Since then, team sizes have gone UP, not down.
Salaries on the whole go up, but in the lala-land that Sorrow occupies, support staff costs have come down.
Bandwidth prices indeed have come down... as if that is the major cost of a MMO or indeed most online activities not involving video streaming. Hell, even Google isn't loosing sleep over the hosting costs of youtube. Servers? Oh, servers become cheaper in a way, you can do more computations for the same amount of money but we also expect much much more.
For instance, it used to be the norm that MMO's had distinct servers for each continent and no way to switch over. TSW has ONE server strategy. That doesn't happen by magic.
Maintenance costs go down? Yeah... because programmers have started to ask for lower salaries. I do it all the time, "boss, I just make to much, I want less money".
MMO's have been 14,95 for a decade and more. Name one other product that has kept the same price.
Subscriptions should be even less? Yeah, wanna bet that every kid who says that also expects a GM to hold their hand in a split second for the entire session?
The only people who can believe costs of labor have come down are those who have not worked a single day in their lives.
And if you can't afford a game? Then don't buy it. It is NOT like you need to game. In fact, if 14,95 is an issue for you, I suggest you need to game a lot less and work some more.
But if anyone is foolish enough to hire Sorrow( or are his mummy), use his post to keep his salary (or allowance) the same for year after year. Betcha he doesn't argue that his income should be going down.
To each his own .. at least TSW started out this way so we know what to expect. Others that have changed their mode of operations usually had to deal with some kind of way to survive. If you haven't noticed these games are businesses and needed to be treated as such. Getting the maximum amount of profit while appeasing their customers. With human nature, they'll never be able to satisfy everyone but as long as they keep their general stance they'll be able to flourish and keep their f2p model. TSW does not need to do that at this point, whether or not it goes f2p the item shop is just for looks and if you have gripes about that there are in game vendors who sell clothes that are just as stylish. We may even see those cash shop items in game at some point, or as quest rewards as they've been giving them out as you do achievements. The pre-order bonus gave you a in-game pet that buffs you and 6000 funcom points to spend in the store. Chew on that.
"The pre-order bonus gave you a in-game pet that buffs you and 6000 funcom points to spend in the store. Chew on that."
Thats nothing like a dope dealer handing out freebies to school kids to get them hooked of course.
If cash shops just sold fluff items there would be no problem, but they always end up selling gameplay altering ones. The fluff simply will not sell as well in 6 months time. Faster transport is what usually comes first, then 'buffs' that effect PvE, then items which effect PvP. I did not know AOC now had a cash shop selling PvP armour, you won't see that in TSW soon, but a year in, yes I could see that easily.
Just curious; how much in US dollars does a title cost?
I played a few days of beta, but I didn't give the cash shop a look.
Titles are probably the silliest things to buy. I think there's one that cost some 10$. You get hell lot of titles for accomplishments in the game, and for the most part people don't even notice your title.
On the preorder bonus points: that was only an offer given to Beta testers (from closed beta) between a period, and only offered to those that had been actually reporting bugs via the report UI. FC matched all your costs for preorder and additional packs in bonus points, valid to be used in the cash shop till September 30th.
Very cool reward for actual testers, in my opinion.
The day TSW starts selling game affecting items... they will lose a LOT of players.
They know it, and i don't expect it to happen any time soon, if they do decently well, i don't expect it to happen at all.
If/when they go freemium what they'll likely charge for is dungeon access. Premium (subscription and lifetime accounts) will remain the same as now.
Didn't notice about the beta tester perk. I believe though that there are WAY more normal subscribers than there were beta testers. So yeah giving them candy to get them hooked might sound pertinent here except that I can't share what I get nor give my points away for other people to get hooked. It would be more like what you described if a lot more people got the bonus rather than the testers. It's barely a scratch on the base. I admit though, I wouldn't mind sharing to get other people hooked, LOL. Nothing like dressing up in a long dress coat and a black buttoned up shirt with a red tie and aviator shades. I spent very little and am rather satisfied with my setup. I don't plan on spending any more since I'm looking at the in-game vendors for my next wardrobe upgrade. I do feel bad for people who rolled female characters. The item shop definitely leans towards more fashion for the women models.
Just curious; how much in US dollars does a title cost?
I played a few days of beta, but I didn't give the cash shop a look.
Titles are probably the silliest things to buy. I think there's one that cost some 10$. You get hell lot of titles for accomplishments in the game, and for the most part people don't even notice your title.
Wow 10 bucks? That's actually cool in my book. lol If a dev can get lunch thanks to some guy wanting a title I'm all for it.
Didn't notice about the beta tester perk. I believe though that there are WAY more normal subscribers than there were beta testers. So yeah giving them candy to get them hooked might sound pertinent here except that I can't share what I get nor give my points away for other people to get hooked. It would be more like what you described if a lot more people got the bonus rather than the testers. It's barely a scratch on the base. I admit though, I wouldn't mind sharing to get other people hooked, LOL. Nothing like dressing up in a long dress coat and a black buttoned up shirt with a red tie and aviator shades. I spent very little and am rather satisfied with my setup. I don't plan on spending any more since I'm looking at the in-game vendors for my next wardrobe upgrade. I do feel bad for people who rolled female characters. The item shop definitely leans towards more fashion for the women models.
They gave beta weekend keys to all testers, so they could introduce friends to the game, back then, but... the bonus points for people actual beta testing and reporting... that is cool, giving them to a lot of people for nothing wouldn't have been that cool. :P
Most poeple i know subscribes fro 3 months, and in TSW that sub comes with some 700+ points for the cash shop, so they can buy some stuff without putting more money, or save some if they want to buy more expensive/more stuff.
Comments
Sadly what actually happens is that about 75% of higher cost game developers and support staff have been parking lot pink slipped right out of the industry and most development and support has been reduced to dismal levels and what little there is has been outsourced to cheaper markets like India.
On top of operations costs, hardware costs has come down dramatically due to cheaper labor, materials, competition and a huge over supply in the market.
I am sorry but you must be playing a very different game than I am playing, bugs take forever to fix, some are still in game that have been there since early beta, most times when they do manage to fix a bug it usually breaks again quickly or they manage to break something else in the process.
Granted the GMs have been working 24/7 moving people past broken quests, but frankly I did not buy the game to have a GM just jump me past all the buggy content, I actually bought the game to play WORKING content.
Man, all these analogies are not needed at all. Just ask yourself this.
How come guild wars 1 and 2 can manage without the sub?
I'm no gw fan but I hate to see people defend pure greed.
Just got the game and I'm at work. Is there a site listing the items sold in the cash shop along with their prices?
Especially the cosmetic items.
Not yet says coming soon...
Not playing as yet, but in P2P/B2P MMO's every cash shop that has game balance altering items started of as a cash shop that did not have any such items.
You can see this in Lotro, DDO, WoW etc. It takes about one year for the gameplay altering items to emerge. This is done because gaming companies know many players do not like cash shops. But the defence is then, 'well nothing in the cash shop effects gameplay'. Indeed players will mount this defence for them, as we see the OP doing here.
Much later, after the complaints are a distant memory the game altering items appear. Players like me will do another thread complianing about it, but it is fait accompli by then.fait accompli by then.
I looked in the cash shop and saw some weird stuff that I knew I wouldn't want. Some of those titles they sell are just strange. If people want to pay money for them..more power to them.
The Social Aspect- Bringing Social Back to Online Games.
People like me? Haha oh please. Dig through my post history and find all my FC failing posts. Oh wait, you wont. The only comments I have made about TSW is that:
a) I find the combat to be boring
b) I won't play a game which has both a cash shop and a subscription
Neither of these comments could hardly an obsession with the failure of FC. I knew the launch wouldnt be a disaster because I played the Beta. I just personally wont play until the above issues are resolved. FC will obviously milk the subscriptions for as long as they can, but I suspect that it will go F2P within the first year anyway.
What content are they releasing that should have been at launch?
- The nightmare modes for the two dungeons that were disabled because they were broken.
- The auction house.
I know they released an explanation for this, and that is fine, they should hold off releasing it until it is ready, but lets not kid ourselves.... it was launch content that they ran out of time for.
Bingo. It opens the door for the pay 2 win that we all know FC are capable of (AoC PvP armor anyone?).
Sorry, you're getting another analogy.
GW1 can manage without a sub the same way that McDonalds can manage to sell you a meal for $5 while other places charge $100. Fact is, you're getting a different meal.
GW2 at this point in time hasn't managed anything. It doesn't release until august.
I don't defend pure greed. I defend having choice as a consumer. I do not want to play GW1 for free or even if you pay me, because I don't like the game and regardless of how much it costs, i find it to be terrible value. And that is what matters - VALUE, not cost.
At the same time, I'm happy to pay sub fees for EQ2 and TSW because those games deliver to me good value for the money that they ask me to pay. At the moment, My $15 a month can't buy me anything better than EQ2 and TSW in terms of MMO gaming. Neither SOE nor Funcom have increased their monthly fees in the last 10 years despite most other consumer products I buy almost doubling in price in that timespan.
When a free game can deliver to me the same value as a subscription game, i'll gladly play it. So far, no game has. (Well LoTRO, but LoTRO started out as a sub game and really, you need to pay nearly the equivalent of a sub to get the full experience).
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I agree 100%.
As long as cash shop doesn't sell items that affect in-game power, more power to them!!!
The income from the cash shop will help fund future development, so it benefits everyone that is playing...even those who don't buy.
Bottom line, the only ones that are pissed about the CS are the people that are jealous they can't afford the fancy outfits/pets/titles.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Delusional?
Didn't SWTOR establish the a modern MMO costs MILLIONS to make? David Braben and Ian Bell made Elite. By themselves but that was back in the dark ages. Since then, team sizes have gone UP, not down.
Salaries on the whole go up, but in the lala-land that Sorrow occupies, support staff costs have come down.
Bandwidth prices indeed have come down... as if that is the major cost of a MMO or indeed most online activities not involving video streaming. Hell, even Google isn't loosing sleep over the hosting costs of youtube. Servers? Oh, servers become cheaper in a way, you can do more computations for the same amount of money but we also expect much much more.
For instance, it used to be the norm that MMO's had distinct servers for each continent and no way to switch over. TSW has ONE server strategy. That doesn't happen by magic.
Maintenance costs go down? Yeah... because programmers have started to ask for lower salaries. I do it all the time, "boss, I just make to much, I want less money".
MMO's have been 14,95 for a decade and more. Name one other product that has kept the same price.
Subscriptions should be even less? Yeah, wanna bet that every kid who says that also expects a GM to hold their hand in a split second for the entire session?
The only people who can believe costs of labor have come down are those who have not worked a single day in their lives.
And if you can't afford a game? Then don't buy it. It is NOT like you need to game. In fact, if 14,95 is an issue for you, I suggest you need to game a lot less and work some more.
But if anyone is foolish enough to hire Sorrow( or are his mummy), use his post to keep his salary (or allowance) the same for year after year. Betcha he doesn't argue that his income should be going down.
To each his own .. at least TSW started out this way so we know what to expect. Others that have changed their mode of operations usually had to deal with some kind of way to survive. If you haven't noticed these games are businesses and needed to be treated as such. Getting the maximum amount of profit while appeasing their customers. With human nature, they'll never be able to satisfy everyone but as long as they keep their general stance they'll be able to flourish and keep their f2p model. TSW does not need to do that at this point, whether or not it goes f2p the item shop is just for looks and if you have gripes about that there are in game vendors who sell clothes that are just as stylish. We may even see those cash shop items in game at some point, or as quest rewards as they've been giving them out as you do achievements. The pre-order bonus gave you a in-game pet that buffs you and 6000 funcom points to spend in the store. Chew on that.
"The pre-order bonus gave you a in-game pet that buffs you and 6000 funcom points to spend in the store. Chew on that."
Thats nothing like a dope dealer handing out freebies to school kids to get them hooked of course.
If cash shops just sold fluff items there would be no problem, but they always end up selling gameplay altering ones. The fluff simply will not sell as well in 6 months time. Faster transport is what usually comes first, then 'buffs' that effect PvE, then items which effect PvP. I did not know AOC now had a cash shop selling PvP armour, you won't see that in TSW soon, but a year in, yes I could see that easily.
Just curious; how much in US dollars does a title cost?
I played a few days of beta, but I didn't give the cash shop a look.
a yo ho ho
Titles are probably the silliest things to buy. I think there's one that cost some 10$. You get hell lot of titles for accomplishments in the game, and for the most part people don't even notice your title.
On the preorder bonus points: that was only an offer given to Beta testers (from closed beta) between a period, and only offered to those that had been actually reporting bugs via the report UI. FC matched all your costs for preorder and additional packs in bonus points, valid to be used in the cash shop till September 30th.
Very cool reward for actual testers, in my opinion.
The day TSW starts selling game affecting items... they will lose a LOT of players.
They know it, and i don't expect it to happen any time soon, if they do decently well, i don't expect it to happen at all.
If/when they go freemium what they'll likely charge for is dungeon access. Premium (subscription and lifetime accounts) will remain the same as now.
Didn't notice about the beta tester perk. I believe though that there are WAY more normal subscribers than there were beta testers. So yeah giving them candy to get them hooked might sound pertinent here except that I can't share what I get nor give my points away for other people to get hooked. It would be more like what you described if a lot more people got the bonus rather than the testers. It's barely a scratch on the base. I admit though, I wouldn't mind sharing to get other people hooked, LOL. Nothing like dressing up in a long dress coat and a black buttoned up shirt with a red tie and aviator shades. I spent very little and am rather satisfied with my setup. I don't plan on spending any more since I'm looking at the in-game vendors for my next wardrobe upgrade. I do feel bad for people who rolled female characters. The item shop definitely leans towards more fashion for the women models.
Wow 10 bucks? That's actually cool in my book. lol If a dev can get lunch thanks to some guy wanting a title I'm all for it.
a yo ho ho
They gave beta weekend keys to all testers, so they could introduce friends to the game, back then, but... the bonus points for people actual beta testing and reporting... that is cool, giving them to a lot of people for nothing wouldn't have been that cool. :P
Most poeple i know subscribes fro 3 months, and in TSW that sub comes with some 700+ points for the cash shop, so they can buy some stuff without putting more money, or save some if they want to buy more expensive/more stuff.