In my book, it was Horizons also known as Istaria. Followed by a bevy of other games such as Star Trek Online, Warhammer Online, Final Fantasy XIV, Shadowbane, Tabula Rasa and Tera.
Biggest failure? I think that's stretching things, and I get easily annoyed at the liberal use of "fail" and "failure" to describe anything that doesn't meet expectations. Also, more often than not, those expectations are exclusive to the person writing the post rather than applicable to the majority.
A shocking disappointment? That description fits SWTOR a lot better.
I had a number of reasons for cancelling my subscription, among them being budgetary issues as well as being in a guild whose collective interest in the game waned rather quickly. Now that the game's going F2P, I honestly don't know if I'll bother going back to it even when I don't have to spend a cent to do so.
My main draw for SWTOR was how story-rich it seemed to be, and indeed, at first I was really pleased with it. I really felt like my character was evolving and taking part in a story arc rather than just being pinballed from one zone to another to do different quest lines. Yes, one could argue that you were still being bounced from place to place to do quests, but at least it felt like there was progression beyond the traditional level-up sense.
I also liked the companion system, where you took someone along with you to fight at your side. He or she had their own skills you could level up to complement yours, and the companion even had a story of his or her own that you got involved in. You could even get romantically involved with your companion or dismiss him or her entirely in favor of someone else or just going it alone. I liked that concept a lot, and still do.
But besides the clearly separated character story arc, no amount of voiceover in the world is going to keep us from realizing that the side quests were little more than padding in order to gain XP and credits/gear, and if the mission provided it, a chance to change your light side/dark side rating. In those quests, you didn't feel like they were part of your character's adventure; they were just there to give you more stuff to do. And what was worse, they were there for every class you chose to play. The progression of planets were the same once you left the starting one; you took on the same side missions and the only differences in how they unfolded were the slight variations in voiceover and how you carried out the mission requirements. One or two side-missions may have differed since they were class-specific, but that was about it. Also, no matter what secondary class you chose for your character, the path was basically the same. It was as if EA/Bioware hid the same tried, true, and overused MMO dynamic underneath the glitz and glamour of "Look, there's voiceover for every quest! Your character progresses, grows, can choose between good and evil!!! Isn't that innovative?!?" You can't claim to reinvent the genre when all you're doing is sugarcoating it.
A problem I had with the companion system after a while is that I didn't care about the other companions once they started to show up. I had a bounty hunter so his companion, of course, was Mako. Since I thought Mako was kinda cute and actually quite skilled, I took a shine to her and found myself actually skewing my gameplay to maintain her approval. As I got better at my work, so did she, and we became inseparable, so when the time came to get my next companion, I had no use for him. Trying to level him up and get him to balance out my gameplay style became a chore when I already had someone who was at my level and was doing just fine. And that's a shame because he seemed like he could be an interesting guy to have around, but since you're only allowed one companion to actively fight alongside you (sure, you can swap them out whenever you want, but again, what for if the one you've got works fine?) he mostly stayed on the ship and crafted. There should've been an allowance for at least two companion characters with you so you could make far better use of another companion character.
Finally...the graphics. Good frakking lord. I unnerves me to admit that I think The Clone Wars Adventures has better environmental and character graphics than SWTOR. And there's no excuse for that when you think of who's behind the game. EA/Bioware did amazing work with the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins in terms of graphics. SWTOR seems so cartoonish in comparison. Don't get me wrong; some of the locations are amazing; Nar Shadaa stands out for me as an area where, when I saw it for the first time, I said to myself, "WOW, now that is pretty freaking cool." But the awe wears off fast when you're traveling past the same areas again and again, often backtracking over zones you were already in. And while costume designs are pretty cool, they'd look a lot better if the characters didn't look so ridiculously cartoony.
I had to give EA/Bioware props for allowing players to create overweight characters; this may sound like a silly thing to compliment, but given how countless games focus on these dazzlingly unrealistic depictions of men and ESPECIALLY women for player models, to see a fat Sith or Bounty Hunter running around made me smile not in jest but in appreciation, probably because I'm a big guy myself. Alas, the cartoon-style appearance of the characters detracted from it all.
Are the things I complained about at insane length enough to doom a game or force it to F2P? Maybe not, but they definitely didn't help its case. In the end, I think it all boils down to the fact that EA/Bioware wanted to cash in on its success with KOTOR by milking the SW franchise's fans for a little more money, and create a game that could de-throne WoW. They dazzled fans with promises of innovative and exciting gameplay when it was really the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing. Quite honestly, I'm sick of these MMO companies aiming to outdo World of Warcraft. STOP IT!!! Make your game successful based on its own merits, not on how it has and can do more than WoW. You want to exceed WoW's successful attributes? Great, but do so quietly, intelligently; stay ahead of the curve, anticipating what Blizzard may come up with a year or more after release to counter what you've got to offer. Don't come out beating your chest like a gorilla and claiming that you've got a WoW-killer on the way, because the odds are so heavily stacked against you.
HOLY CRAP, did I write way too much about this. I'll be lucky if anyone here gets past the first paragraph. Oh well, that's my $0.02. SWTOR = Not an "epic failure" but a significant letdown.
Lieutenant Commander Shatterhand Federation News Network XO, Starfleet Operations Officer {UFP} United Federation of Planets =/\= ufplanets.com
I don't know about biggest failure to date, but I would bet biggest gamble and biggest disappointment. There was an over-abundance of arrogance in the development phase of the game, and that directly destroyed any chance the game had to garner millions of players.
You simply can NOT make a pure themepark game in a post WoW market and expect it to hold millions of players. Without sandbox elements it is my belief that all games are doomed against WoW. It just simply has one thing they don't...the numbers. People want to be where people are.
The arrogance was that sound and story/voiceover would be so addictive players would flock to the game in droves. Reality is that a good story is required, and most of the storylines are VERY poorly written. Too much Clone Wars and not enough New Hope. KotOR had a GREAT story. This game has a few, but most are quite silly and boring.
I'll bet changing the side quests alone to text only (using mission terminals) would have saved a big piece of cash and allowed more development funds for other features.
I'll also bet the cost of voiceover and sound caused development fund shortcomings...the rest of the game was sacrificed. Big gamble...that didn't pan out.
They were told what they needed. Sandboxy repeatable content that made you feel like a part of the world. Battlefront like space combat, complete customization of your starship (including making it like housing in SWG), color change on gear, lack of focus on gear (using dropins for stats instead so you can choose your look), real customization with companions, balance for real solo play (no need for companion), choices that matter, phasing based on choices, multitudes of trash mobs so combat feels epic, auto-attack anything that attacks you, etc.
So many things to list. Things you would expect they would understand. Instead it seems they collectively lost their minds, and have now paid the price like many MANY games before it.
Here's a clue developers...players really DO know what is best for a game. You do not. When players tell you that making a WoW clone in a market where you can play WoW as an alternative is a death sentence, and that sandboxy features is your only chance you should listen. Unfortunately hardcore players will not save you. Casual players will.
Like it or not the evidence is clear. Casuals support the industry. Hardcores kill it.
S'pose... by the end of the year, maybe... SW:TOR garners 5 Million active accounts and start making "mega-bucks." Now, remember, this is just a hypothetical situation here. Maybe the sub fee was keeping many people away from playing. Would you STILL call it a failure?
Now, we all know the chances of the above happening are slim to none. BUT... some miracle could happen and make this possible.
This whole line of thought reminds me of the "Bring Out Your Dead!" skit from Monty Python.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You have to realise, in this forum failure generally means "Game I don't like that didn't outsell WoW". Though most people here think they are lying, EA and BioWare have stated they still have 500000+ subs and thats enough for it to turn a profit. Even if that means its only got 500001 subs, its still pretty healthy.
I would call this the most polarizing MMO to date, but to say its a failure is wrong. To say its a dissappointment (other to EA) is the same as saying "I never read more than the first 3 sentances of any gaming article in the past 2 years" as they never hid what they were doing, nor did they say this game would be something that it was not. Its a themepark in the WoW style. It has space on rails, it is a MMO, and most people who liked SWG hated it from the very second it was announced.
S'pose... by the end of the year, maybe... SW:TOR garners 5 Million active accounts and start making "mega-bucks." Now, remember, this is just a hypothetical situation here. Maybe the sub fee was keeping many people away from playing. Would you STILL call it a failure?
Now, we all know the chances of the above happening are slim to none. BUT... some miracle could happen and make this possible.
This whole line of thought reminds me of the "Bring Out Your Dead!" skit from Monty Python.
I would say it would not be a failure at that point. In fact, based on cost I think it can be considered a success if it can hold north of a million players for more than three years, and THAT is only because of the cost of voice over content.
However, it definitely failed to meet expectations in a rather explosive fashion.
However, I still think Tabula Rasa was a larger Failure. They initially spent $106 million on that game and it only made~$ 5.6 mil back in the 1st 6 months. The subscriptions declined quickly and the expenses continued to increase as Garriot left and then sued NCSoft and won 28 million. When you consider the 106 mil doesnt include the cost of the numberous patches they had for TR(about 1 a month) as well as the legal fees and costs of losing the lawsuit to Garriot, it is not at all unrealistic to say this game likely cost $175 mil +
It was the most expensive game made to that date and it had the then world's premier name in game development (Garriot) and it spent 7 years in development.
Swtor also was the most expensive game ever when it was released, but it also set some sales records too. The figures about how much it cost are hard to pin point as it seems quite a topic of inernet debate, but most do recignize it was, until that point, the fastest selling MMorpg of all time. So, there was some financial recovery, even if we dont know just how much.
REports vary, but TR reportedly topped out at 88k -120k users. Swtor likely has more than that NOW, as it continues its serious freefall. So I have to give the "bigger flop" award to the game that had , at its peek, fewer players then its next compeitor for the award has ever had.
I don't know about biggest failure to date, but I would bet biggest gamble and biggest disappointment. There was an over-abundance of arrogance in the development phase of the game, and that directly destroyed any chance the game had to garner millions of players.
You simply can NOT make a pure themepark game in a post WoW market and expect it to hold millions of players. Without sandbox elements it is my belief that all games are doomed against WoW. It just simply has one thing they don't...the numbers. People want to be where people are.
The arrogance was that sound and story/voiceover would be so addictive players would flock to the game in droves. Reality is that a good story is required, and most of the storylines are VERY poorly written. Too much Clone Wars and not enough New Hope. KotOR had a GREAT story. This game has a few, but most are quite silly and boring.
I'll bet changing the side quests alone to text only (using mission terminals) would have saved a big piece of cash and allowed more development funds for other features.
I'll also bet the cost of voiceover and sound caused development fund shortcomings...the rest of the game was sacrificed. Big gamble...that didn't pan out.
They were told what they needed. Sandboxy repeatable content that made you feel like a part of the world. Battlefront like space combat, complete customization of your starship (including making it like housing in SWG), color change on gear, lack of focus on gear (using dropins for stats instead so you can choose your look), real customization with companions, balance for real solo play (no need for companion), choices that matter, phasing based on choices, multitudes of trash mobs so combat feels epic, auto-attack anything that attacks you, etc.
So many things to list. Things you would expect they would understand. Instead it seems they collectively lost their minds, and have now paid the price like many MANY games before it.
Here's a clue developers...players really DO know what is best for a game. You do not. When players tell you that making a WoW clone in a market where you can play WoW as an alternative is a death sentence, and that sandboxy features is your only chance you should listen. Unfortunately hardcore players will not save you. Casual players will.
Like it or not the evidence is clear. Casuals support the industry. Hardcores kill it.
Swtor is casual friendly for people who play casually with time wise, or play style wise in a safe carebear way.
You need to distinguish if by casual you mean by time investment or by casual by style of play with FFA PVP rules for example for hardcore.
The problem is that the casual were not in large numbers, or large enough, and the hard core players the ones who are more interested in end game were left short changed with a monthly sub.
So it seems the game was designed for the casual players, and alt players as an online single player game... but with a monthly sub. So their development for thier target market with their sub model were at odd ends. That is the reason for the sub drop since casual players are also apparently thrifty spenders not too interested in casual play when they get it, but also its value, and they got thier values worth in the first play through, and probably realized the extra bullshit they would have to put up with just to casually play the stuff they only wanted to play and that was story for the most part.
Since according to BW and thier feed back a lot of thier players said they would continue to play but without a monthly sub. The fact that players say that means these are casual single player gamers, and a lot of them are not MMO players. So swtor was not only not developed well to have MMO players, but a lot of the players seem to respond on the casual aspect of swtor and that was the story which it was marketed as. But, having a casual coop mode online for $15 is not what a thrifty spender would waste thier money on against market norms. Which is why logically, the $15 monthly is for MMO mechanics and not for the lvling expereince. Everyone in the gaming industry pays $50 for the lvling, which generally means that is free and people can play that at thier leisure and not be restricted by a monthly sub, and an end game they do not feel compelled to play for whatever personal reasons or generally speaking - swtor specfically did not develop thier end game as much as they should have.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I don't know about biggest failure to date, but I would bet biggest gamble and biggest disappointment. There was an over-abundance of arrogance in the development phase of the game, and that directly destroyed any chance the game had to garner millions of players.
You simply can NOT make a pure themepark game in a post WoW market and expect it to hold millions of players. Without sandbox elements it is my belief that all games are doomed against WoW. It just simply has one thing they don't...the numbers. People want to be where people are.
The arrogance was that sound and story/voiceover would be so addictive players would flock to the game in droves. Reality is that a good story is required, and most of the storylines are VERY poorly written. Too much Clone Wars and not enough New Hope. KotOR had a GREAT story. This game has a few, but most are quite silly and boring.
I'll bet changing the side quests alone to text only (using mission terminals) would have saved a big piece of cash and allowed more development funds for other features.
I'll also bet the cost of voiceover and sound caused development fund shortcomings...the rest of the game was sacrificed. Big gamble...that didn't pan out.
They were told what they needed. Sandboxy repeatable content that made you feel like a part of the world. Battlefront like space combat, complete customization of your starship (including making it like housing in SWG), color change on gear, lack of focus on gear (using dropins for stats instead so you can choose your look), real customization with companions, balance for real solo play (no need for companion), choices that matter, phasing based on choices, multitudes of trash mobs so combat feels epic, auto-attack anything that attacks you, etc.
So many things to list. Things you would expect they would understand. Instead it seems they collectively lost their minds, and have now paid the price like many MANY games before it.
Here's a clue developers...players really DO know what is best for a game. You do not. When players tell you that making a WoW clone in a market where you can play WoW as an alternative is a death sentence, and that sandboxy features is your only chance you should listen. Unfortunately hardcore players will not save you. Casual players will.
Like it or not the evidence is clear. Casuals support the industry. Hardcores kill it.
Swtor is casual friendly for people who play casually with time wise, or play style wise in a safe carebear way.
You need to distinguish if by casual you mean by time investment or by casual by style of play with FFA PVP rules for example for hardcore.
The problem is that the casual were not in large numbers, or large enough, and the hard core players the ones who are more interested in end game were left short changed with a monthly sub.
So it seems the game was designed for the casual players, and alt players as an online single player game... but with a monthly sub. So their development for thier target market with their sub model were at odd ends. That is the reason for the sub drop since casual players are also apparently thrifty spenders not too interested in casual play when they get it, but also its value, and they got thier values worth in the first play through, and probably realized the extra bullshit they would have to put up with just to casually play the stuff they only wanted to play and that was story for the most part.
Since according to BW and thier feed back a lot of thier players said they would continue to play but without a monthly sub. The fact that players say that means these are casual single player gamers, and a lot of them are not MMO players. So swtor was not only not developed well to have MMO players, but a lot of the players seem to respond on the casual aspect of swtor and that was the story which it was marketed as. But, having a casual coop mode online for $15 is not what a thrifty spender would waste thier money on against market norms. Which is why logically, the $15 monthly is for MMO mechanics and not for the lvling expereince. Everyone in the gaming industry pays $50 for the lvling, which generally means that is free and people can play that at thier leisure and not be restricted by a monthly sub, and an end game they do not feel compelled to play for whatever personal reasons or generally speaking - swtor specfically did not develop thier end game as much as they should have.
I would counter, however, that though the game may have casual friendly features in some ways it lacks others that tend to hold casual players. Sandbox is almost completely absent from the game, as well as personalization and customization.
Originally posted by amadeuz Although it may not be the biggest failure, but fail is fail, sorry SWTOR fans.
Biggest disappointment to those who were made to believe it was Super SWTOR, who would save us all from the evils of WoW Luthor; it turned out to be a random skinny guy wearing a buff suit at best, and he had arms made of paper.
Originally posted by sammandar 6. In summary, you fail to recognize SWTOR's unique situation and context.
Yep, I fail to recognize huge pile of water based speculations. That is me, I work with facts, evidence and reason...things that does not bother you in a least bit.
Instead you use arguments such as "healthy", "evident", "obvious", "what is most basic", etc. that are nothing more than your own set of qualifiers.
If the game is not "healthy", then it is "obvious" that "evident" has to come "what is most basic" to "recognize".
Have fun with you ill logic.
Note: No. 5) was particularly funny after you linked an article where author cannot even distinguish the difference between Net Loss and Net Income.
If that's true then why didn't they start with F2P in January?
The revenue profile changes over the life span of the game - high initial sales followed by consolidation, so picking payment model that makes most profit at the time seems good business.
It is all about money. If one model is becoming to be less viable than the other, it would be unwise not to follow.
Originally posted by MMOSavant
I don't know how many subs there are, but F2P is always a response to dropping numbers of subs in a game (as seen by all the server merges in ToR and by every other game that has gone F2P) and not planned from the outset, and not introduced when you have a stable amount of subs going forward. It's not a choice they wanted to make, It's damage control.
Subscriptions and purchase fees may bring some nice income at release or shortly after launch but with time they become a burden.
MMO market is very competitive, there are many products customer may chose from and if you ask money for something most of your competitors don't, you lose the race.
The fact of the matter is they expected to have 3.8 million subs and expand the base. If you want to know the truth, now you know.
Originally posted by iceman00 Yet why?WoW didn't have this.
The answer is market competition.
Because at the time WoW was released, they were like 2 products altogether that WoW had to compete with. It is easier to take large piece of cake when you have little competition on the market and Blizzard did just so.
Only 2 games so far were able to sustain steady subscriber growth over the years: WoW and EVE Online and both of them seem to struggle now. EVE stagnate for last year and WoW recently reported subscriber drop.
Now, couple years later you have dozens of games on the market people can chose from, market has changed.
Well, one game still requires you to buy the latest expansion at FULL PRICE. One game still requires you to buy the game to level to levelcap. One game still has a major expansion coming up. One game still requires a subscription fee. That game isn't SWTOR.
This has got to be the most monumental MMO failure - way beyond other "WoW killers" like AoC, War, etc. I mean, even WAR still has a subscription. How sad.
Theres more than one game that does that.....one very successful 10 year old nearly game (doesn't charge for expansions but never has). Wins all the awards as well :P
Because at the time WoW was released, they were like 2 products altogether that WoW had to compete with. It is easier to take large piece of cake when you have little competition on the market and Blizzard did just so.
Only 2 games so far were able to sustain steady subscriber growth over the years: WoW and EVE Online and both of them seem to struggle now. EVE stagnate for last year and WoW recently reported subscriber drop.
Now, couple years later you have dozens of games on the market people can chose from, market has changed.
EVE messed up last year adn this year and learnt from it.
I don't know about biggest failure to date, but I would bet biggest gamble and biggest disappointment. There was an over-abundance of arrogance in the development phase of the game, and that directly destroyed any chance the game had to garner millions of players.
You simply can NOT make a pure themepark game in a post WoW market and expect it to hold millions of players. Without sandbox elements it is my belief that all games are doomed against WoW. It just simply has one thing they don't...the numbers. People want to be where people are.
The arrogance was that sound and story/voiceover would be so addictive players would flock to the game in droves. Reality is that a good story is required, and most of the storylines are VERY poorly written. Too much Clone Wars and not enough New Hope. KotOR had a GREAT story. This game has a few, but most are quite silly and boring.
I'll bet changing the side quests alone to text only (using mission terminals) would have saved a big piece of cash and allowed more development funds for other features.
I'll also bet the cost of voiceover and sound caused development fund shortcomings...the rest of the game was sacrificed. Big gamble...that didn't pan out.
They were told what they needed. Sandboxy repeatable content that made you feel like a part of the world. Battlefront like space combat, complete customization of your starship (including making it like housing in SWG), color change on gear, lack of focus on gear (using dropins for stats instead so you can choose your look), real customization with companions, balance for real solo play (no need for companion), choices that matter, phasing based on choices, multitudes of trash mobs so combat feels epic, auto-attack anything that attacks you, etc.
So many things to list. Things you would expect they would understand. Instead it seems they collectively lost their minds, and have now paid the price like many MANY games before it.
Here's a clue developers...players really DO know what is best for a game. You do not. When players tell you that making a WoW clone in a market where you can play WoW as an alternative is a death sentence, and that sandboxy features is your only chance you should listen. Unfortunately hardcore players will not save you. Casual players will.
Like it or not the evidence is clear. Casuals support the industry. Hardcores kill it.
Swtor is casual friendly for people who play casually with time wise, or play style wise in a safe carebear way.
You need to distinguish if by casual you mean by time investment or by casual by style of play with FFA PVP rules for example for hardcore.
The problem is that the casual were not in large numbers, or large enough, and the hard core players the ones who are more interested in end game were left short changed with a monthly sub.
So it seems the game was designed for the casual players, and alt players as an online single player game... but with a monthly sub. So their development for thier target market with their sub model were at odd ends. That is the reason for the sub drop since casual players are also apparently thrifty spenders not too interested in casual play when they get it, but also its value, and they got thier values worth in the first play through, and probably realized the extra bullshit they would have to put up with just to casually play the stuff they only wanted to play and that was story for the most part.
Since according to BW and thier feed back a lot of thier players said they would continue to play but without a monthly sub. The fact that players say that means these are casual single player gamers, and a lot of them are not MMO players. So swtor was not only not developed well to have MMO players, but a lot of the players seem to respond on the casual aspect of swtor and that was the story which it was marketed as. But, having a casual coop mode online for $15 is not what a thrifty spender would waste thier money on against market norms. Which is why logically, the $15 monthly is for MMO mechanics and not for the lvling expereince. Everyone in the gaming industry pays $50 for the lvling, which generally means that is free and people can play that at thier leisure and not be restricted by a monthly sub, and an end game they do not feel compelled to play for whatever personal reasons or generally speaking - swtor specfically did not develop thier end game as much as they should have.
I would counter, however, that though the game may have casual friendly features in some ways it lacks others that tend to hold casual players. Sandbox is almost completely absent from the game, as well as personalization and customization.
The thing it is missing to keep the casual MMO player is the ability to logg in and get to the action with a variety of content -open world pvp in swtor is drive around looking for poeple in their territory with no objectives and they could or could not be there. That is what makes sand boxes negatives and spending time looking for action.
The game is designed with story not being interefered with, hence the lack of open pvp areas on planets being extremely limited - and isolated quest areas for each faction. However, it really does stop there, other than story, and whatver instance of story, heroic, FP, space combat, WZs and possibly OPs that is all the casual stuff, and the crafting as well. Its too easy.
However, that is not enough for the casual gamer it seems for really unknown reasons why the casual foundation of swtor is not appealing. Other than it also costing $15. Is it that it lacks an overall MMO package with more features? Or was there too many side quests? BW has the statistics, and reading into statistics is actually a tricky business and normally costly, as in this case, BW changed their payment model.
A 'sandboxy' MMO as you have put it, would be the more MMO features in the game that could add value to the game, but might or might not be a game changer for casual gamers. And really depends on what you mean by sand box features.
If by sand box features you mean there are mechanics to make swtor more of a simulated reality with player housing, sieging, open world pvp, meaningful objectives (no silly buffs), fighting over resources etc etc. They can still do this that fits the model of the casual player to have 'instant' access to the content. They can have timed events as well, which would organize people to show up at a certain time.
However, if by sand box, you are talking about free roam planets, a loot all loot system, intense crafting, FFA pvp then that can change the appeal to casual gamers. Since the casual gamer is not necessarily not looking for a challenge since all PVP is challenging and there are causal pvpers, but they would not want to spend a long time looking for content instead of having instant access to it. So it's how it is balanced time-wise for the casual player to have access, and how it intereferes with other content in the game as well. And having a sand box part with a theme park can exist which would be more of genrealizations from both to have its own Hybrid MMO. And at the end of day not being exclusivly either, but removing the negatives from both as much as possible.
So, its not that I disagree with you, its just that you speak in generalizations with terms that can mean different things, and those different things have different positives, and negatives for what you want the focus to be on for the casual gamer as for what you said sustains MMOs are casual players.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Biggest failure? I think that's stretching things, and I get easily annoyed at the liberal use of "fail" and "failure" to describe anything that doesn't meet expectations. Also, more often than not, those expectations are exclusive to the person writing the post rather than applicable to the majority.
A shocking disappointment? That description fits SWTOR a lot better.
I had a number of reasons for cancelling my subscription, among them being budgetary issues as well as being in a guild whose collective interest in the game waned rather quickly. Now that the game's going F2P, I honestly don't know if I'll bother going back to it even when I don't have to spend a cent to do so.
My main draw for SWTOR was how story-rich it seemed to be, and indeed, at first I was really pleased with it. I really felt like my character was evolving and taking part in a story arc rather than just being pinballed from one zone to another to do different quest lines. Yes, one could argue that you were still being bounced from place to place to do quests, but at least it felt like there was progression beyond the traditional level-up sense.
I also liked the companion system, where you took someone along with you to fight at your side. He or she had their own skills you could level up to complement yours, and the companion even had a story of his or her own that you got involved in. You could even get romantically involved with your companion or dismiss him or her entirely in favor of someone else or just going it alone. I liked that concept a lot, and still do.
But besides the clearly separated character story arc, no amount of voiceover in the world is going to keep us from realizing that the side quests were little more than padding in order to gain XP and credits/gear, and if the mission provided it, a chance to change your light side/dark side rating. In those quests, you didn't feel like they were part of your character's adventure; they were just there to give you more stuff to do. And what was worse, they were there for every class you chose to play. The progression of planets were the same once you left the starting one; you took on the same side missions and the only differences in how they unfolded were the slight variations in voiceover and how you carried out the mission requirements. One or two side-missions may have differed since they were class-specific, but that was about it. Also, no matter what secondary class you chose for your character, the path was basically the same. It was as if EA/Bioware hid the same tried, true, and overused MMO dynamic underneath the glitz and glamour of "Look, there's voiceover for every quest! Your character progresses, grows, can choose between good and evil!!! Isn't that innovative?!?" You can't claim to reinvent the genre when all you're doing is sugarcoating it.
A problem I had with the companion system after a while is that I didn't care about the other companions once they started to show up. I had a bounty hunter so his companion, of course, was Mako. Since I thought Mako was kinda cute and actually quite skilled, I took a shine to her and found myself actually skewing my gameplay to maintain her approval. As I got better at my work, so did she, and we became inseparable, so when the time came to get my next companion, I had no use for him. Trying to level him up and get him to balance out my gameplay style became a chore when I already had someone who was at my level and was doing just fine. And that's a shame because he seemed like he could be an interesting guy to have around, but since you're only allowed one companion to actively fight alongside you (sure, you can swap them out whenever you want, but again, what for if the one you've got works fine?) he mostly stayed on the ship and crafted. There should've been an allowance for at least two companion characters with you so you could make far better use of another companion character.
Finally...the graphics. Good frakking lord. I unnerves me to admit that I think The Clone Wars Adventures has better environmental and character graphics than SWTOR. And there's no excuse for that when you think of who's behind the game. EA/Bioware did amazing work with the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins in terms of graphics. SWTOR seems so cartoonish in comparison. Don't get me wrong; some of the locations are amazing; Nar Shadaa stands out for me as an area where, when I saw it for the first time, I said to myself, "WOW, now that is pretty freaking cool." But the awe wears off fast when you're traveling past the same areas again and again, often backtracking over zones you were already in. And while costume designs are pretty cool, they'd look a lot better if the characters didn't look so ridiculously cartoony.
I had to give EA/Bioware props for allowing players to create overweight characters; this may sound like a silly thing to compliment, but given how countless games focus on these dazzlingly unrealistic depictions of men and ESPECIALLY women for player models, to see a fat Sith or Bounty Hunter running around made me smile not in jest but in appreciation, probably because I'm a big guy myself. Alas, the cartoon-style appearance of the characters detracted from it all.
Are the things I complained about at insane length enough to doom a game or force it to F2P? Maybe not, but they definitely didn't help its case. In the end, I think it all boils down to the fact that EA/Bioware wanted to cash in on its success with KOTOR by milking the SW franchise's fans for a little more money, and create a game that could de-throne WoW. They dazzled fans with promises of innovative and exciting gameplay when it was really the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing. Quite honestly, I'm sick of these MMO companies aiming to outdo World of Warcraft. STOP IT!!! Make your game successful based on its own merits, not on how it has and can do more than WoW. You want to exceed WoW's successful attributes? Great, but do so quietly, intelligently; stay ahead of the curve, anticipating what Blizzard may come up with a year or more after release to counter what you've got to offer. Don't come out beating your chest like a gorilla and claiming that you've got a WoW-killer on the way, because the odds are so heavily stacked against you.
HOLY CRAP, did I write way too much about this. I'll be lucky if anyone here gets past the first paragraph. Oh well, that's my $0.02. SWTOR = Not an "epic failure" but a significant letdown.
I have to say you changed my mind, I used to say until very recently that SWTOR was a failure, but I think you hit the nail right on the head... SWTOR is a shocking dissapointment more than it is a failure. Though it was long and took me forever to read it, I think that this is one of the best written posts in regards to SWTOR.
Not even close, as much as you want it to be it simply isn't, unless you use a very personal & arbitrary set of criteria, there will be plenty of voices among the MMO hating sandbox crew but they hate on everything anyway.
Unless you are in the "anything less than 10 million subs is a total failure" brigade, fact is SWTOR is still in the top 5 of most-populated MMO's so a lot of people disagree with your assessment.
6. In summary, you fail to recognize SWTOR's unique situation and context.
Yep, I fail to recognize huge pile of water based speculations. That is me, I work with facts, evidence and reason...things that does not bother you in a least bit.
Instead you use arguments such as "healthy", "evident", "obvious", "what is most basic", etc. that are nothing more than your own set of qualifiers. If the game is not "healthy", then it is "obvious" that "evident" has to come "what is most basic" to "recognize". Have fun with you ill logic.
Note: No. 5) was particularly funny after you linked an article where author cannot even distinguish the difference between Net Loss and Net Income.
And there you go again... demeaning and insulting people. You claim to work with facts, evidence and reason, except for the fact that you refuse to acknowledge SWTOR's hugely dissapointing performance; main reason for the layoffs (including Vogel's), the transition to F2P and the EA exec restructuring. You ignore the fact that SWTOR devs had bigger and higher plans for SWTOR (server reduction, payment model change, etc), and now are limited to making SWTOR F2P. You're unwillingness to even acknowledge that SWTOR did not meet expectations is incredible.
Instead of addressing one's arguments, you reduce yourself to insulting others, demeaning them and attacking them in an offensive, personal and hateful way; not a good way to portray yourself. As for the article, I already admitted that it was a mistake and unlike others, I have no problem in manning up to my mistakes.
I do care about facts, evidence and reason. Facts; SWTOR transitioned from P2P to F2P, gave free time to players in order to keep their subs, conducted layoffs in Austin (including Vogel's) and had to restructure it's corporate leadership... not exactly the signs of a healthy and normal game. Evidence; the precipitous loss of subs, the layoffs, the transition from P2P to F2P all indicate and support the facts that SWTOR did not perform as well as Bio/EA had hoped forcing their hand in trying to save the game. Reason; Due to the facts and the evidence supporting the facts, it is clear that SWTOR has been a huge dissapointment, both to Bio/EA and the playerbase in general.
Biggest failure? I think that's stretching things, and I get easily annoyed at the liberal use of "fail" and "failure" to describe anything that doesn't meet expectations. Also, more often than not, those expectations are exclusive to the person writing the post rather than applicable to the majority.
A shocking disappointment? That description fits SWTOR a lot better.
I had a number of reasons for cancelling my subscription, among them being budgetary issues as well as being in a guild whose collective interest in the game waned rather quickly. Now that the game's going F2P, I honestly don't know if I'll bother going back to it even when I don't have to spend a cent to do so.
My main draw for SWTOR was how story-rich it seemed to be, and indeed, at first I was really pleased with it. I really felt like my character was evolving and taking part in a story arc rather than just being pinballed from one zone to another to do different quest lines. Yes, one could argue that you were still being bounced from place to place to do quests, but at least it felt like there was progression beyond the traditional level-up sense.
I also liked the companion system, where you took someone along with you to fight at your side. He or she had their own skills you could level up to complement yours, and the companion even had a story of his or her own that you got involved in. You could even get romantically involved with your companion or dismiss him or her entirely in favor of someone else or just going it alone. I liked that concept a lot, and still do.
But besides the clearly separated character story arc, no amount of voiceover in the world is going to keep us from realizing that the side quests were little more than padding in order to gain XP and credits/gear, and if the mission provided it, a chance to change your light side/dark side rating. In those quests, you didn't feel like they were part of your character's adventure; they were just there to give you more stuff to do. And what was worse, they were there for every class you chose to play. The progression of planets were the same once you left the starting one; you took on the same side missions and the only differences in how they unfolded were the slight variations in voiceover and how you carried out the mission requirements. One or two side-missions may have differed since they were class-specific, but that was about it. Also, no matter what secondary class you chose for your character, the path was basically the same. It was as if EA/Bioware hid the same tried, true, and overused MMO dynamic underneath the glitz and glamour of "Look, there's voiceover for every quest! Your character progresses, grows, can choose between good and evil!!! Isn't that innovative?!?" You can't claim to reinvent the genre when all you're doing is sugarcoating it.
A problem I had with the companion system after a while is that I didn't care about the other companions once they started to show up. I had a bounty hunter so his companion, of course, was Mako. Since I thought Mako was kinda cute and actually quite skilled, I took a shine to her and found myself actually skewing my gameplay to maintain her approval. As I got better at my work, so did she, and we became inseparable, so when the time came to get my next companion, I had no use for him. Trying to level him up and get him to balance out my gameplay style became a chore when I already had someone who was at my level and was doing just fine. And that's a shame because he seemed like he could be an interesting guy to have around, but since you're only allowed one companion to actively fight alongside you (sure, you can swap them out whenever you want, but again, what for if the one you've got works fine?) he mostly stayed on the ship and crafted. There should've been an allowance for at least two companion characters with you so you could make far better use of another companion character.
Finally...the graphics. Good frakking lord. I unnerves me to admit that I think The Clone Wars Adventures has better environmental and character graphics than SWTOR. And there's no excuse for that when you think of who's behind the game. EA/Bioware did amazing work with the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins in terms of graphics. SWTOR seems so cartoonish in comparison. Don't get me wrong; some of the locations are amazing; Nar Shadaa stands out for me as an area where, when I saw it for the first time, I said to myself, "WOW, now that is pretty freaking cool." But the awe wears off fast when you're traveling past the same areas again and again, often backtracking over zones you were already in. And while costume designs are pretty cool, they'd look a lot better if the characters didn't look so ridiculously cartoony.
I had to give EA/Bioware props for allowing players to create overweight characters; this may sound like a silly thing to compliment, but given how countless games focus on these dazzlingly unrealistic depictions of men and ESPECIALLY women for player models, to see a fat Sith or Bounty Hunter running around made me smile not in jest but in appreciation, probably because I'm a big guy myself. Alas, the cartoon-style appearance of the characters detracted from it all.
Are the things I complained about at insane length enough to doom a game or force it to F2P? Maybe not, but they definitely didn't help its case. In the end, I think it all boils down to the fact that EA/Bioware wanted to cash in on its success with KOTOR by milking the SW franchise's fans for a little more money, and create a game that could de-throne WoW. They dazzled fans with promises of innovative and exciting gameplay when it was really the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing. Quite honestly, I'm sick of these MMO companies aiming to outdo World of Warcraft. STOP IT!!! Make your game successful based on its own merits, not on how it has and can do more than WoW. You want to exceed WoW's successful attributes? Great, but do so quietly, intelligently; stay ahead of the curve, anticipating what Blizzard may come up with a year or more after release to counter what you've got to offer. Don't come out beating your chest like a gorilla and claiming that you've got a WoW-killer on the way, because the odds are so heavily stacked against you.
HOLY CRAP, did I write way too much about this. I'll be lucky if anyone here gets past the first paragraph. Oh well, that's my $0.02. SWTOR = Not an "epic failure" but a significant letdown.
I have to say you changed my mind, I used to say until very recently that SWTOR was a failure, but I think you hit the nail right on the head... SWTOR is a shocking dissapointment more than it is a failure. Though it was long and took me forever to read it, I think that this is one of the best written posts in regards to SWTOR.
I am in the shocking disappointment group as well vs the failure... Financially it is doing "ok" they have huge amounts of debt though, recovering will be difficult but not impossible.
Like, "Your kid is all set to go to College on a full scholarship, but then discovers MMOs and now lives down in your basement playing SWTOR and eating chicken nuggets" disappointing
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I believe that while SWTOR does not completely succeed as MMO, it is a brilliant game with the most outstanding storyline and voice acting that any MMO has ever conceived. It has no proper endgame, probably. Like every other MMO of the current era. People are just tired of grinding raids and battlegrounds for +1 gear upgrades.
I'd hardly call it a failure, either case.
That's pretty much how I feel. No doubt EA had ridiculous expectations for this game because story centric games are for a niche audience and the game ran into the same wall that other themeparks did once you hit endgame.
was it overhyped? absolutely (to be fair though, its hard for mmos not to be these days it seems)
Based off of how much they have spent on the game, yes the subs should be higher.
Ultimately the game still has a good amount of subs, well over 500k apparently.
Biggest Failure... hardly.
A disapointment... depends on the person. I think its a great game and theres always a ton of people to play with now after the merges so thats all that matters to me.
F2P is only going to allow it to become a better game. It did that for LOTRO, DDO, AOC, and DCUO. Probably many others but those are the only ones I have enjoyed.
Comments
Biggest failure? I think that's stretching things, and I get easily annoyed at the liberal use of "fail" and "failure" to describe anything that doesn't meet expectations. Also, more often than not, those expectations are exclusive to the person writing the post rather than applicable to the majority.
A shocking disappointment? That description fits SWTOR a lot better.
I had a number of reasons for cancelling my subscription, among them being budgetary issues as well as being in a guild whose collective interest in the game waned rather quickly. Now that the game's going F2P, I honestly don't know if I'll bother going back to it even when I don't have to spend a cent to do so.
My main draw for SWTOR was how story-rich it seemed to be, and indeed, at first I was really pleased with it. I really felt like my character was evolving and taking part in a story arc rather than just being pinballed from one zone to another to do different quest lines. Yes, one could argue that you were still being bounced from place to place to do quests, but at least it felt like there was progression beyond the traditional level-up sense.
I also liked the companion system, where you took someone along with you to fight at your side. He or she had their own skills you could level up to complement yours, and the companion even had a story of his or her own that you got involved in. You could even get romantically involved with your companion or dismiss him or her entirely in favor of someone else or just going it alone. I liked that concept a lot, and still do.
But besides the clearly separated character story arc, no amount of voiceover in the world is going to keep us from realizing that the side quests were little more than padding in order to gain XP and credits/gear, and if the mission provided it, a chance to change your light side/dark side rating. In those quests, you didn't feel like they were part of your character's adventure; they were just there to give you more stuff to do. And what was worse, they were there for every class you chose to play. The progression of planets were the same once you left the starting one; you took on the same side missions and the only differences in how they unfolded were the slight variations in voiceover and how you carried out the mission requirements. One or two side-missions may have differed since they were class-specific, but that was about it. Also, no matter what secondary class you chose for your character, the path was basically the same. It was as if EA/Bioware hid the same tried, true, and overused MMO dynamic underneath the glitz and glamour of "Look, there's voiceover for every quest! Your character progresses, grows, can choose between good and evil!!! Isn't that innovative?!?" You can't claim to reinvent the genre when all you're doing is sugarcoating it.
A problem I had with the companion system after a while is that I didn't care about the other companions once they started to show up. I had a bounty hunter so his companion, of course, was Mako. Since I thought Mako was kinda cute and actually quite skilled, I took a shine to her and found myself actually skewing my gameplay to maintain her approval. As I got better at my work, so did she, and we became inseparable, so when the time came to get my next companion, I had no use for him. Trying to level him up and get him to balance out my gameplay style became a chore when I already had someone who was at my level and was doing just fine. And that's a shame because he seemed like he could be an interesting guy to have around, but since you're only allowed one companion to actively fight alongside you (sure, you can swap them out whenever you want, but again, what for if the one you've got works fine?) he mostly stayed on the ship and crafted. There should've been an allowance for at least two companion characters with you so you could make far better use of another companion character.
Finally...the graphics. Good frakking lord. I unnerves me to admit that I think The Clone Wars Adventures has better environmental and character graphics than SWTOR. And there's no excuse for that when you think of who's behind the game. EA/Bioware did amazing work with the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins in terms of graphics. SWTOR seems so cartoonish in comparison. Don't get me wrong; some of the locations are amazing; Nar Shadaa stands out for me as an area where, when I saw it for the first time, I said to myself, "WOW, now that is pretty freaking cool." But the awe wears off fast when you're traveling past the same areas again and again, often backtracking over zones you were already in. And while costume designs are pretty cool, they'd look a lot better if the characters didn't look so ridiculously cartoony.
I had to give EA/Bioware props for allowing players to create overweight characters; this may sound like a silly thing to compliment, but given how countless games focus on these dazzlingly unrealistic depictions of men and ESPECIALLY women for player models, to see a fat Sith or Bounty Hunter running around made me smile not in jest but in appreciation, probably because I'm a big guy myself. Alas, the cartoon-style appearance of the characters detracted from it all.
Are the things I complained about at insane length enough to doom a game or force it to F2P? Maybe not, but they definitely didn't help its case. In the end, I think it all boils down to the fact that EA/Bioware wanted to cash in on its success with KOTOR by milking the SW franchise's fans for a little more money, and create a game that could de-throne WoW. They dazzled fans with promises of innovative and exciting gameplay when it was really the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing. Quite honestly, I'm sick of these MMO companies aiming to outdo World of Warcraft. STOP IT!!! Make your game successful based on its own merits, not on how it has and can do more than WoW. You want to exceed WoW's successful attributes? Great, but do so quietly, intelligently; stay ahead of the curve, anticipating what Blizzard may come up with a year or more after release to counter what you've got to offer. Don't come out beating your chest like a gorilla and claiming that you've got a WoW-killer on the way, because the odds are so heavily stacked against you.
HOLY CRAP, did I write way too much about this. I'll be lucky if anyone here gets past the first paragraph. Oh well, that's my $0.02. SWTOR = Not an "epic failure" but a significant letdown.
Lieutenant Commander Shatterhand
Federation News Network XO, Starfleet Operations Officer
{UFP} United Federation of Planets =/\=
ufplanets.com
I don't know about biggest failure to date, but I would bet biggest gamble and biggest disappointment. There was an over-abundance of arrogance in the development phase of the game, and that directly destroyed any chance the game had to garner millions of players.
You simply can NOT make a pure themepark game in a post WoW market and expect it to hold millions of players. Without sandbox elements it is my belief that all games are doomed against WoW. It just simply has one thing they don't...the numbers. People want to be where people are.
The arrogance was that sound and story/voiceover would be so addictive players would flock to the game in droves. Reality is that a good story is required, and most of the storylines are VERY poorly written. Too much Clone Wars and not enough New Hope. KotOR had a GREAT story. This game has a few, but most are quite silly and boring.
I'll bet changing the side quests alone to text only (using mission terminals) would have saved a big piece of cash and allowed more development funds for other features.
I'll also bet the cost of voiceover and sound caused development fund shortcomings...the rest of the game was sacrificed. Big gamble...that didn't pan out.
They were told what they needed. Sandboxy repeatable content that made you feel like a part of the world. Battlefront like space combat, complete customization of your starship (including making it like housing in SWG), color change on gear, lack of focus on gear (using dropins for stats instead so you can choose your look), real customization with companions, balance for real solo play (no need for companion), choices that matter, phasing based on choices, multitudes of trash mobs so combat feels epic, auto-attack anything that attacks you, etc.
So many things to list. Things you would expect they would understand. Instead it seems they collectively lost their minds, and have now paid the price like many MANY games before it.
Here's a clue developers...players really DO know what is best for a game. You do not. When players tell you that making a WoW clone in a market where you can play WoW as an alternative is a death sentence, and that sandboxy features is your only chance you should listen. Unfortunately hardcore players will not save you. Casual players will.
Like it or not the evidence is clear. Casuals support the industry. Hardcores kill it.
I dunno... Let's play a game here.
S'pose... by the end of the year, maybe... SW:TOR garners 5 Million active accounts and start making "mega-bucks." Now, remember, this is just a hypothetical situation here. Maybe the sub fee was keeping many people away from playing. Would you STILL call it a failure?
Now, we all know the chances of the above happening are slim to none. BUT... some miracle could happen and make this possible.
This whole line of thought reminds me of the "Bring Out Your Dead!" skit from Monty Python.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You have to realise, in this forum failure generally means "Game I don't like that didn't outsell WoW". Though most people here think they are lying, EA and BioWare have stated they still have 500000+ subs and thats enough for it to turn a profit. Even if that means its only got 500001 subs, its still pretty healthy.
I would call this the most polarizing MMO to date, but to say its a failure is wrong. To say its a dissappointment (other to EA) is the same as saying "I never read more than the first 3 sentances of any gaming article in the past 2 years" as they never hid what they were doing, nor did they say this game would be something that it was not. Its a themepark in the WoW style. It has space on rails, it is a MMO, and most people who liked SWG hated it from the very second it was announced.
I would say it would not be a failure at that point. In fact, based on cost I think it can be considered a success if it can hold north of a million players for more than three years, and THAT is only because of the cost of voice over content.
However, it definitely failed to meet expectations in a rather explosive fashion.
It is a tough call between SWtor and TR
However, I still think Tabula Rasa was a larger Failure. They initially spent $106 million on that game and it only made~$ 5.6 mil back in the 1st 6 months. The subscriptions declined quickly and the expenses continued to increase as Garriot left and then sued NCSoft and won 28 million. When you consider the 106 mil doesnt include the cost of the numberous patches they had for TR(about 1 a month) as well as the legal fees and costs of losing the lawsuit to Garriot, it is not at all unrealistic to say this game likely cost $175 mil +
It was the most expensive game made to that date and it had the then world's premier name in game development (Garriot) and it spent 7 years in development.
Swtor also was the most expensive game ever when it was released, but it also set some sales records too. The figures about how much it cost are hard to pin point as it seems quite a topic of inernet debate, but most do recignize it was, until that point, the fastest selling MMorpg of all time. So, there was some financial recovery, even if we dont know just how much.
REports vary, but TR reportedly topped out at 88k -120k users. Swtor likely has more than that NOW, as it continues its serious freefall. So I have to give the "bigger flop" award to the game that had , at its peek, fewer players then its next compeitor for the award has ever had.
Swtor is casual friendly for people who play casually with time wise, or play style wise in a safe carebear way.
You need to distinguish if by casual you mean by time investment or by casual by style of play with FFA PVP rules for example for hardcore.
The problem is that the casual were not in large numbers, or large enough, and the hard core players the ones who are more interested in end game were left short changed with a monthly sub.
So it seems the game was designed for the casual players, and alt players as an online single player game... but with a monthly sub. So their development for thier target market with their sub model were at odd ends. That is the reason for the sub drop since casual players are also apparently thrifty spenders not too interested in casual play when they get it, but also its value, and they got thier values worth in the first play through, and probably realized the extra bullshit they would have to put up with just to casually play the stuff they only wanted to play and that was story for the most part.
Since according to BW and thier feed back a lot of thier players said they would continue to play but without a monthly sub. The fact that players say that means these are casual single player gamers, and a lot of them are not MMO players. So swtor was not only not developed well to have MMO players, but a lot of the players seem to respond on the casual aspect of swtor and that was the story which it was marketed as. But, having a casual coop mode online for $15 is not what a thrifty spender would waste thier money on against market norms. Which is why logically, the $15 monthly is for MMO mechanics and not for the lvling expereince. Everyone in the gaming industry pays $50 for the lvling, which generally means that is free and people can play that at thier leisure and not be restricted by a monthly sub, and an end game they do not feel compelled to play for whatever personal reasons or generally speaking - swtor specfically did not develop thier end game as much as they should have.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I would counter, however, that though the game may have casual friendly features in some ways it lacks others that tend to hold casual players. Sandbox is almost completely absent from the game, as well as personalization and customization.
Biggest disappointment to those who were made to believe it was Super SWTOR, who would save us all from the evils of WoW Luthor; it turned out to be a random skinny guy wearing a buff suit at best, and he had arms made of paper.
Yep, I fail to recognize huge pile of water based speculations. That is me, I work with facts, evidence and reason...things that does not bother you in a least bit.
Instead you use arguments such as "healthy", "evident", "obvious", "what is most basic", etc. that are nothing more than your own set of qualifiers.
If the game is not "healthy", then it is "obvious" that "evident" has to come "what is most basic" to "recognize".
Have fun with you ill logic.
Note: No. 5) was particularly funny after you linked an article where author cannot even distinguish the difference between Net Loss and Net Income.
The fact of the matter is they expected to have 3.8 million subs and expand the base. If you want to know the truth, now you know.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
The answer is market competition.
Because at the time WoW was released, they were like 2 products altogether that WoW had to compete with. It is easier to take large piece of cake when you have little competition on the market and Blizzard did just so.
Only 2 games so far were able to sustain steady subscriber growth over the years: WoW and EVE Online and both of them seem to struggle now. EVE stagnate for last year and WoW recently reported subscriber drop.
Now, couple years later you have dozens of games on the market people can chose from, market has changed.
Theres more than one game that does that.....one very successful 10 year old nearly game (doesn't charge for expansions but never has). Wins all the awards as well :P
EVE messed up last year adn this year and learnt from it.
EVE is growing again (not that it stopped)
The thing it is missing to keep the casual MMO player is the ability to logg in and get to the action with a variety of content -open world pvp in swtor is drive around looking for poeple in their territory with no objectives and they could or could not be there. That is what makes sand boxes negatives and spending time looking for action.
The game is designed with story not being interefered with, hence the lack of open pvp areas on planets being extremely limited - and isolated quest areas for each faction. However, it really does stop there, other than story, and whatver instance of story, heroic, FP, space combat, WZs and possibly OPs that is all the casual stuff, and the crafting as well. Its too easy.
However, that is not enough for the casual gamer it seems for really unknown reasons why the casual foundation of swtor is not appealing. Other than it also costing $15. Is it that it lacks an overall MMO package with more features? Or was there too many side quests? BW has the statistics, and reading into statistics is actually a tricky business and normally costly, as in this case, BW changed their payment model.
A 'sandboxy' MMO as you have put it, would be the more MMO features in the game that could add value to the game, but might or might not be a game changer for casual gamers. And really depends on what you mean by sand box features.
If by sand box features you mean there are mechanics to make swtor more of a simulated reality with player housing, sieging, open world pvp, meaningful objectives (no silly buffs), fighting over resources etc etc. They can still do this that fits the model of the casual player to have 'instant' access to the content. They can have timed events as well, which would organize people to show up at a certain time.
However, if by sand box, you are talking about free roam planets, a loot all loot system, intense crafting, FFA pvp then that can change the appeal to casual gamers. Since the casual gamer is not necessarily not looking for a challenge since all PVP is challenging and there are causal pvpers, but they would not want to spend a long time looking for content instead of having instant access to it. So it's how it is balanced time-wise for the casual player to have access, and how it intereferes with other content in the game as well. And having a sand box part with a theme park can exist which would be more of genrealizations from both to have its own Hybrid MMO. And at the end of day not being exclusivly either, but removing the negatives from both as much as possible.
So, its not that I disagree with you, its just that you speak in generalizations with terms that can mean different things, and those different things have different positives, and negatives for what you want the focus to be on for the casual gamer as for what you said sustains MMOs are casual players.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I have to say you changed my mind, I used to say until very recently that SWTOR was a failure, but I think you hit the nail right on the head... SWTOR is a shocking dissapointment more than it is a failure. Though it was long and took me forever to read it, I think that this is one of the best written posts in regards to SWTOR.
Biggest MMO failure to date?
Not even close, as much as you want it to be it simply isn't, unless you use a very personal & arbitrary set of criteria, there will be plenty of voices among the MMO hating sandbox crew but they hate on everything anyway.
Unless you are in the "anything less than 10 million subs is a total failure" brigade, fact is SWTOR is still in the top 5 of most-populated MMO's so a lot of people disagree with your assessment.
And there you go again... demeaning and insulting people. You claim to work with facts, evidence and reason, except for the fact that you refuse to acknowledge SWTOR's hugely dissapointing performance; main reason for the layoffs (including Vogel's), the transition to F2P and the EA exec restructuring. You ignore the fact that SWTOR devs had bigger and higher plans for SWTOR (server reduction, payment model change, etc), and now are limited to making SWTOR F2P. You're unwillingness to even acknowledge that SWTOR did not meet expectations is incredible.
Instead of addressing one's arguments, you reduce yourself to insulting others, demeaning them and attacking them in an offensive, personal and hateful way; not a good way to portray yourself. As for the article, I already admitted that it was a mistake and unlike others, I have no problem in manning up to my mistakes.
I do care about facts, evidence and reason. Facts; SWTOR transitioned from P2P to F2P, gave free time to players in order to keep their subs, conducted layoffs in Austin (including Vogel's) and had to restructure it's corporate leadership... not exactly the signs of a healthy and normal game. Evidence; the precipitous loss of subs, the layoffs, the transition from P2P to F2P all indicate and support the facts that SWTOR did not perform as well as Bio/EA had hoped forcing their hand in trying to save the game. Reason; Due to the facts and the evidence supporting the facts, it is clear that SWTOR has been a huge dissapointment, both to Bio/EA and the playerbase in general.
I am in the shocking disappointment group as well vs the failure... Financially it is doing "ok" they have huge amounts of debt though, recovering will be difficult but not impossible.
Swtor: Biggest MMO failure to date? No!
But for the amount of money spent on the game, it has to be one of the biggest disappointments in mmo history.
Biggest Failure? No.
Highly Disappointing? Yes
Like, "Your kid is all set to go to College on a full scholarship, but then discovers MMOs and now lives down in your basement playing SWTOR and eating chicken nuggets" disappointing
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
That's pretty much how I feel. No doubt EA had ridiculous expectations for this game because story centric games are for a niche audience and the game ran into the same wall that other themeparks did once you hit endgame.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
was it overhyped? absolutely (to be fair though, its hard for mmos not to be these days it seems)
Based off of how much they have spent on the game, yes the subs should be higher.
Ultimately the game still has a good amount of subs, well over 500k apparently.
Biggest Failure... hardly.
A disapointment... depends on the person. I think its a great game and theres always a ton of people to play with now after the merges so thats all that matters to me.
F2P is only going to allow it to become a better game. It did that for LOTRO, DDO, AOC, and DCUO. Probably many others but those are the only ones I have enjoyed.