Originally posted by Leucent I didn t level so quick. I mean, nowadays, you can hit max in weeks, sometimes days. I miss the long hard levels, where people actually had to know how to use their class.
It is still exactly the same, except that you grind gear tiers instead of levels now. You w'still need to either know your class well or have some really helpful friends to get good gear, just as it was with max level before.
The only real difference is that you did gain new skills before, and that noobs had higher respect for you when you were maxed out.
For me neither way is that great, both tends to be very grindy and not so exciting as it could be. I think we need a good leveless system, something closer to "Runequest" than TSW is, a bump up in difficulty and a huge decrease in gap between noobs and vets.
Not even close. When it took time, you made friends, good communities, and people did know how to play their class better. Gear grind at end game is not the same at all. A monkey can gear grind, not all can level the old hard way because they are so wowified, they last a week max. Alot of games nowadays, hand hold you so much you don t even really have to try. Back in the day of DAOC for example, it wasn t how many levels are you going to gain that day, it was what can you accomplish today.
Gear grinds are not even close to the same.
I agree .. First thing that came to mind was when I was in a pug.. or a group I had hooked up with before.. Remember those days you would get an 'ADD'...... SHIT.. ADD.. The group had limited choices.. Find some way to park/CC that ADD, or run like hell, or DIE.... We didn't have the option to just run away 20 feet and let the mobs reset.. This is why trains were so dangerous.. Back then grouping was so much more social then this LFG queue junk we have.. People enter instance, say HELLO, then zerg thru instance and end it with "good job".. and POOF.. They're gone.. Is this what MMO's have become.. Lobby games!!!
I miss horizontal progression (ie. enjoying the game from the get go and not racing to the last level to do end game), no mounts, no quest hubs and open pvp-ksing (not that I do it, but keeps me on edge while I travel around).
For me it has got to be near endless horizontal progression. Playing Asherons Call for years and never reaching the level cap. Having something to always strive for in character progression that didnt include gear or having to group with 80 other individuals is what I miss the most.
Dont forget ACs classless system allowing you to play whatever kind of character you wanted.
I'll tell you, roleplaying a sword swinging war magic caster with NO life(healing)magic, Melee Defense or item magic(damage debuffs) was the most fun I have ever had RPing a character in my life.
Never made it past level 40 with him because it simply wasnt possible to survive a fight
has anybody mentioned dungeons yet? man im sick and tired of the linear dungeons with no respawns.
back in AC you got lost in dungeons there was no map and there was never only one way to go AND mobs respawned AND you had to worry about some dude running for his life with 50 mobs chassing him coming right at you yelling help!
back in those days you go in a higher level dungeon and it was tough, you could die and never get your corpse back ( wich had some items on it ). or if you are in a group and you get behind or away from the group, you could be lost for awhile or dead after turning the next corner.
not to mention some had levers to open doors in another part of the dungeon, man those days were awsome.
now a dungeon is a linear path with mobs that dont respawn and you have it all to yourself and your group. its normally really easy and boring to do again.
oh and im sick of dieing being a way of fast travel now in these games because there is no penalty.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Community tools and community support. In the bright-eyed and naive effoft to create one big happy lovefest on the server, developers have designed mechanics that actually work against community building and make it more difficult for player bonds to form in game.
Yeah, I'll go along with this sentiment. It seems the more developers tried to improve MMORPG gameplay, the more damage they did to the community.
These days people point to LFG and DF tools and hold them up as evidence of socialization, not realizing they are the result of a lack of community instead and provided as a solution to an inherent flaw in modern game design.
Some tools are actually nice to have. It'd be a real pain in the ass if all you had was /say to look for a group.
Might work if a game had taverns with mini games or something to pass the time while you wait for more people to show up.
I think it's more about the bottom line though for developers, and bored players = unhappy players. Unhappy players = lost subs. So we have things like LFD.
Not really, not if the game design was such that you weren't stuck because of a lack of healers, or tanks. Back when I played DAOC pretty much all we had was /say and yet unless you were one of the undesireable classes (pretty much all stealthers) you rarely difficulty joining a group. Always seemed to be enough healers and tanks to go around, but then again people didn't seem to hate playing those two classes as much. (besides, you also had to have buffing classes, but again, still no shortage)
One reason was group size was larger, 8 people, 2nd the camp grinding design allowed for more forgiveness, you didn't need to be a "pro" to optimize your leveling experince.
The reason you need a DF today is because of the way MMO's are currently designed, /say just doesn't cut it. In fact, you'll find that LFG/DF's don't even work well in smaller titles such as TERA, as the shortage of tanks (by design) as launched was across all servers, so it still meant no queues for tanks while other folks waited over an hour at times. Sure, very large player base titles such as WOW it works better of course.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Those of you who played at the dawn of mmorpg's know that before the great influx of players, games were inhabited by passionate and dedicated people, free from gold farming, advertisements and spam.
Probably unemployed, worked part time jobs, going to school, with no real life responsibilities. Yeah, those were the days where I could play pretty much all day and night.
has anybody mentioned dungeons yet? man im sick and tired of the linear dungeons with no respawns.
back in AC you got lost in dungeons there was no map and there was never only one way to go AND mobs respawned AND you had to worry about some dude running for his life with 50 mobs chassing him coming right at you yelling help!
back in those days you go in a higher level dungeon and it was tough, you could die and never get your corpse back ( wich had some items on it ). or if you are in a group and you get behind or away from the group, you could be lost for awhile or dead after turning the next corner.
not to mention some had levers to open doors in another part of the dungeon, man those days were awsome.
now a dungeon is a linear path with mobs that dont respawn and you have it all to yourself and your group. its normally really easy and boring to do again.
oh and im sick of dieing being a way of fast travel now in these games because there is no penalty.
The red was so damn awesome. Some people hated training but I thought it was downright hilarious sometimes.
I really loved the pacing. In Everquest I spent a year without doing a single quest (I played a lot longer, but I think I ran a few quests after that first year). Well, I handed in dufrenite for my totemic pieces, but no traditional quests and maybe 5 or 6 total hand ins over a year.
I would spend hours upon hours camped in a single spot, pulling mobs all day and night, with some of the greatest people I have ever had the pleasure of gaming with. Samein AC1 and Camelot too... UO as well.
People would pass by and say hello and well met, folks would join you and become lifelong firends. Nobody really had an agenda or specific goal in mind, aside from having fun and socializing in a game. The dungeons were huge and non-instanced. It was so much better imo.
I remember spending days upon days at the cutthroat camps in Ro... the orc highway in Oasis. Same in AC1, I probably spent 6 months in VoD with good friends just having a blast.
People can say it's rose colored glasses or that first mmo experience or whatever, but for some of us that isn't all there is to it. I still love to play those games today, and I still play them the same way that I did back then. Just like the MUD's through the early and mid 90's, they felt the same way. The pace was perfect, the community grew and reputations were made. People knew your name and you knew theirs. Complete stranger would ask for help across an entire world, and folks would often travel 30 minutes or more just to help that stranger out.
After much thought, I guess the one thing I miss the most is the community. When I was trying to work out what I missed I thought of grouping, slow levelling, non instanced, slower paced gameplay, but it all seemed to point to that one thing of community.
People used to be so great in the original batch of MMO's, EverQuest being my main example. As the post above me stated, you could hang out with people all day, remember names, help each other out, and so on. I remember being an unguilded level 46 Bard who decided to go exploring in the wrong side of town. I ended up jumping through a scary looking portal and finding myself in the Plane of Fear. I died within a few seconds and had no way of getting back in there safely to get my corpse back.
I asked for someone to help me, not realising this place was a raid zone, and after ten scary minutes of thinking my toon was over, I got a tell saying that 'they were on their way'. I had no idea who the person was, I had no idea who 'they' were, but eventually over 40 people poured into the area as an entire guild came to help me get my corpse back. A guild I didn't even know. People I had never talked to before.
That was an incredibly humbling experience, that there was the power of community. That, to me, is what's missing from modern MMO's.
Sometimes I miss the less twitchy nature of older MMOs. Also the fear of death as in death in game triggers some form of emotion. Generally negative, but just enough negative emotion to greatly amplify the positive emotion that comes with the taste of victory.
I remember when I first deleveled in Everquest or FFXI and just how my heart sank that day. However, overcoming that hurdle created a sense of joy that is unattainable in modern grinders. This is why I love games like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so much. They capture this fear of death almost perfectly, and the game is not tedious for it. it just flat out enhances the experiences. With out the game being designed around the fear of death it would just fall flat and become tedious eventually.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Community tools and community support. In the bright-eyed and naive effoft to create one big happy lovefest on the server, developers have designed mechanics that actually work against community building and make it more difficult for player bonds to form in game.
Yeah, I'll go along with this sentiment. It seems the more developers tried to improve MMORPG gameplay, the more damage they did to the community.
These days people point to LFG and DF tools and hold them up as evidence of socialization, not realizing they are the result of a lack of community instead and provided as a solution to an inherent flaw in modern game design.
Gameplay >>> community.
In fact, cross-realm features, LFD tools .. all help getting into the game quicker, and easier to play with friends. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, friend list, list of players who you have group with, chat channel (all features in D3) helps a great deal to find/remember players you like and want to group with again.
Players willing to accept unfinished or imperfect.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
games without walls/invisible boundaries, wilderness exploration, game mechanics that allowed 'progression' that arent based on either crafting or combat. Classless abilities and games that rely on social interdependence.
Comments
I agree .. First thing that came to mind was when I was in a pug.. or a group I had hooked up with before.. Remember those days you would get an 'ADD'...... SHIT.. ADD.. The group had limited choices.. Find some way to park/CC that ADD, or run like hell, or DIE.... We didn't have the option to just run away 20 feet and let the mobs reset.. This is why trains were so dangerous.. Back then grouping was so much more social then this LFG queue junk we have.. People enter instance, say HELLO, then zerg thru instance and end it with "good job".. and POOF.. They're gone.. Is this what MMO's have become.. Lobby games!!!
Freedom.
If I may make a FPS comparison; old MMORPG's were Operation flashpoint. New ones are Call of Duty Black Ops.
I miss horizontal progression (ie. enjoying the game from the get go and not racing to the last level to do end game), no mounts, no quest hubs and open pvp-ksing (not that I do it, but keeps me on edge while I travel around).
Dont forget ACs classless system allowing you to play whatever kind of character you wanted.
I'll tell you, roleplaying a sword swinging war magic caster with NO life(healing)magic, Melee Defense or item magic(damage debuffs) was the most fun I have ever had RPing a character in my life.
Never made it past level 40 with him because it simply wasnt possible to survive a fight
has anybody mentioned dungeons yet? man im sick and tired of the linear dungeons with no respawns.
back in AC you got lost in dungeons there was no map and there was never only one way to go AND mobs respawned AND you had to worry about some dude running for his life with 50 mobs chassing him coming right at you yelling help!
back in those days you go in a higher level dungeon and it was tough, you could die and never get your corpse back ( wich had some items on it ). or if you are in a group and you get behind or away from the group, you could be lost for awhile or dead after turning the next corner.
not to mention some had levers to open doors in another part of the dungeon, man those days were awsome.
now a dungeon is a linear path with mobs that dont respawn and you have it all to yourself and your group. its normally really easy and boring to do again.
oh and im sick of dieing being a way of fast travel now in these games because there is no penalty.
Not really, not if the game design was such that you weren't stuck because of a lack of healers, or tanks. Back when I played DAOC pretty much all we had was /say and yet unless you were one of the undesireable classes (pretty much all stealthers) you rarely difficulty joining a group. Always seemed to be enough healers and tanks to go around, but then again people didn't seem to hate playing those two classes as much. (besides, you also had to have buffing classes, but again, still no shortage)
One reason was group size was larger, 8 people, 2nd the camp grinding design allowed for more forgiveness, you didn't need to be a "pro" to optimize your leveling experince.
The reason you need a DF today is because of the way MMO's are currently designed, /say just doesn't cut it. In fact, you'll find that LFG/DF's don't even work well in smaller titles such as TERA, as the shortage of tanks (by design) as launched was across all servers, so it still meant no queues for tanks while other folks waited over an hour at times. Sure, very large player base titles such as WOW it works better of course.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Probably unemployed, worked part time jobs, going to school, with no real life responsibilities. Yeah, those were the days where I could play pretty much all day and night.
The need to group - Back then grouping was necessary and often many more times optimal than soloing.
These days, soloing is usually more optimal.
The red was so damn awesome. Some people hated training but I thought it was downright hilarious sometimes.
The pace.
I really loved the pacing. In Everquest I spent a year without doing a single quest (I played a lot longer, but I think I ran a few quests after that first year). Well, I handed in dufrenite for my totemic pieces, but no traditional quests and maybe 5 or 6 total hand ins over a year.
I would spend hours upon hours camped in a single spot, pulling mobs all day and night, with some of the greatest people I have ever had the pleasure of gaming with. Samein AC1 and Camelot too... UO as well.
People would pass by and say hello and well met, folks would join you and become lifelong firends. Nobody really had an agenda or specific goal in mind, aside from having fun and socializing in a game. The dungeons were huge and non-instanced. It was so much better imo.
I remember spending days upon days at the cutthroat camps in Ro... the orc highway in Oasis. Same in AC1, I probably spent 6 months in VoD with good friends just having a blast.
People can say it's rose colored glasses or that first mmo experience or whatever, but for some of us that isn't all there is to it. I still love to play those games today, and I still play them the same way that I did back then. Just like the MUD's through the early and mid 90's, they felt the same way. The pace was perfect, the community grew and reputations were made. People knew your name and you knew theirs. Complete stranger would ask for help across an entire world, and folks would often travel 30 minutes or more just to help that stranger out.
The pace.
After much thought, I guess the one thing I miss the most is the community. When I was trying to work out what I missed I thought of grouping, slow levelling, non instanced, slower paced gameplay, but it all seemed to point to that one thing of community.
People used to be so great in the original batch of MMO's, EverQuest being my main example. As the post above me stated, you could hang out with people all day, remember names, help each other out, and so on. I remember being an unguilded level 46 Bard who decided to go exploring in the wrong side of town. I ended up jumping through a scary looking portal and finding myself in the Plane of Fear. I died within a few seconds and had no way of getting back in there safely to get my corpse back.
I asked for someone to help me, not realising this place was a raid zone, and after ten scary minutes of thinking my toon was over, I got a tell saying that 'they were on their way'. I had no idea who the person was, I had no idea who 'they' were, but eventually over 40 people poured into the area as an entire guild came to help me get my corpse back. A guild I didn't even know. People I had never talked to before.
That was an incredibly humbling experience, that there was the power of community. That, to me, is what's missing from modern MMO's.
Not in WOW. LFD is more efficient in leveling and getting loot.
In a world of sharp knives, you would be a spoon.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Actually only played Ac during the open beta, but was to much involved in EQ allready to try it more...
Just got m myysseellff a 14 day free account, need to see what i missed in that game.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Sometimes I miss the less twitchy nature of older MMOs. Also the fear of death as in death in game triggers some form of emotion. Generally negative, but just enough negative emotion to greatly amplify the positive emotion that comes with the taste of victory.
I remember when I first deleveled in Everquest or FFXI and just how my heart sank that day. However, overcoming that hurdle created a sense of joy that is unattainable in modern grinders. This is why I love games like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so much. They capture this fear of death almost perfectly, and the game is not tedious for it. it just flat out enhances the experiences. With out the game being designed around the fear of death it would just fall flat and become tedious eventually.
Gameplay >>> community.
In fact, cross-realm features, LFD tools .. all help getting into the game quicker, and easier to play with friends. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, friend list, list of players who you have group with, chat channel (all features in D3) helps a great deal to find/remember players you like and want to group with again.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.