Originally posted by Petzen I actually don't think it is the act of raiding in itself that people dislike, but the fact that in most MMOs raiding equals gear grinding which certainly is an ascpect a lot of players loathe.
+1 This is the reason I dislike raiding, we all spend lots of time working out how a puzzle works and everyone has to be part of this puzzle for it to work, well most anyway. However the down side to this is that only a very few benefit from the end result when it comes to drops and that has always left me empty and been the decision I have stopped raiding and it's highly unlikely that I will ever return for those reasons.
I'm sure if someone looked at the raid concept and developed it further so that everyone could benefit from it then I might be tempted back, but I doubt that will ever happen because most of the games which have raid content demand that you grind their content and they need everyone to spend more time in their world rather than another companies world. So they cannot allow us all to get drops from their game as it cost them money in the long run.
This is another reason why players buy game money from gold farmers as they don't get high end drops and if someone has the money to buy this item then why wouldn't they. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that everyone who raids and fails use gold sellers but most of the people I have spoken to in game have turned out to be like this and have even paid to go on raids to get items.
I'm looking forward to playing the end game in GW2 to see how they manage to keep us all hooked moving forward and I'm sure if they fail then many will just uni-stall it like we have with other games knowing that there is no monthly fee makes it highly unlikely though IMO.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
So a traditional raid = WoW raid?
I thought raids started in EQ?
1. MMO standards are dominated by WoW now. They have been almost since WoW came out. You see MMOs copying WoW, not EQ. EQ hasn't mattered in 8+ years.
2. AFAIK, EQ still had all the scheduling, gear progression, and tight demands on what sort of classes you play with that made people dislike like raiding, despite having bosses outside of instances. Honestly, overworld bosses combined with PvP and trying to snag the boss made raiding in EQ a lot worse if anything.
Doesn't WoW have open world raids though? I mean, I get what you're saying but it still doesn't change the fact that raids do not necessarily have to be instanced. Even if you look at the wikipedia page about raids, it states that raids can be instanced or open world.
I think it's the case of people having the wrong definition of the activity. In truth, GW2's DEs, especially those involving big zone bosses, fit the description of a raid to a T.
I understand what you are saying, but its kind of like using an uncommon definition of a word. It's like say someone really hungry who is scarfing down food is in a rage. Technically it applies, but if we've been talking about being angry, that's not really what we're getting at.
So yeah, GW2 does have open world raid bosses in a sense. But if you go back to that wikipedia article, you'll see that pretty much everything it lists as "often" the case with raiding is not in GW2. There's not the immense specialization in classes. There's not raid loot in a traditional sense. The part on raiding guilds is very likely to be laughable. It won't require a investment of hours. Etc, etc.
So while such bosses might fit A definition of raiding, they certainly don't fit the definition that is in common use. I wouldn't say they fit the description of a raid to a "T" either, given how many elements of that wiki article fail to show up. So in the significant sense of "what most people mean when they talk about raiding" GW2 does not have raiding.
Originally posted by Sojhin This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
Yes there is something wrong with a game like GW2 creating some content that allows the "top 5 percent" of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience.
1) It's expensive to produce, and if only 5% of your population enjoys it, you've wasted money as a developer. 2) The point of GW2 is to encourage participation from everyone. The point of raids is to divide the population into those who raid and those who do not. The attitude of the people who do raid and post on forums doesn't help this. For instance, calling themselves the "top 5 percent".
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
Because raiding takes up a lot more than 5% of the development resources? Making arenas for people in teams to PvP against each other doesn't eat up disproportionately massive amounts of dev time.
And from what they've said, there should be some DEs that can't be zerged. They've certainly said some of them will be more difficult than others and are comfortable having some tough DEs that people will have trouble beating.
And I don't see what's so problematic about the WvWvW PvP. It looks like playing it will be a lot of fun, and while playing it you'll have plenty of risk vs. reward. Who cares what the benefits are if you win? Imho, if you need a carrot to enjoy it, then there's something wrong with the game. That said, there are certainly PvP rewards in terms of aesthetics and the like in addition to the WvWvW buff.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Still curious as to why so many still think gw2 has no raids
Because DEs designed for up to 100 people are NOT what people mean when they talk about raids. Changing the definition people are using to mean something else is a cute trick, but doesn't really change the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids in any traditional sense.
It does have PvE content that your entire guild can do together, but raiding isn't just large-scale PvE content anymore than standard DEs are dungeons.
Heck man, in a thread YOU MADE that's stickied, you have a link to how there's no raiding.
So a traditional raid = WoW raid?
I thought raids started in EQ?
1. MMO standards are dominated by WoW now. They have been almost since WoW came out. You see MMOs copying WoW, not EQ. EQ hasn't mattered in 8+ years.
2. AFAIK, EQ still had all the scheduling, gear progression, and tight demands on what sort of classes you play with that made people dislike like raiding, despite having bosses outside of instances. Honestly, overworld bosses combined with PvP and trying to snag the boss made raiding in EQ a lot worse if anything.
Doesn't WoW have open world raids though? I mean, I get what you're saying but it still doesn't change the fact that raids do not necessarily have to be instanced. Even if you look at the wikipedia page about raids, it states that raids can be instanced or open world.
I think it's the case of people having the wrong definition of the activity. In truth, GW2's DEs, especially those involving big zone bosses, fit the description of a raid to a T.
I understand what you are saying, but its kind of like using an uncommon definition of a word. It's like say someone really hungry who is scarfing down food is in a rage. Technically it applies, but if we've been talking about being angry, that's not really what we're getting at.
So yeah, GW2 does have open world raid bosses in a sense. But if you go back to that wikipedia article, you'll see that pretty much everything it lists as "often" the case with raiding is not in GW2. There's not the immense specialization in classes. There's not raid loot in a traditional sense. The part on raiding guilds is very likely to be laughable. It won't require a investment of hours. Etc, etc.
So while such bosses might fit A definition of raiding, they certainly don't fit the definition that is in common use. I wouldn't say they fit the description of a raid to a "T" either, given how many elements of that wiki article fail to show up. So in the significant sense of "what most people mean when they talk about raiding" GW2 does not have raiding.
You guys have been having a semantics battle for a while. I think you guys just need to make a distinction every time you use the term so that people can understand what you're pointing at. Maybe something like:
Open World Raids
Instanced Raids
You can even add unorganized and organized. But really, if you are just going to use the word "raid," then it does apply to GW2, EQ, WoW and wahtever the hell else has a large group of players fighting something. As long as you are clear to the type of raiding you are trying to discuss, I don't see why there is a problem with using the term to define what GW2 has.
Originally posted by Clywd EQ did not have the restriction to an exact "best" setup of classes. You just brought 50+ people who knew their character. The limitation to a given set of classes came with wow and their restricton to 20(?) players in a raid.
As i hate instances by definition i of course prefer open world raids. Developers dislike this, as it would require more content - so they found an infinite amount of excuses why less content, but copied content, is really good for the dumb players.
As stated above, copying wow is a safe way to burn a lot of money, but i am still waiting for a new EQ, you know, a game for adults with social skills ;-)
Yes, because camping an area 24/7 waiting for a respawn is exactly what adults with social skills should be doing with their time. Especially when they need to have 50 people (who DO need to be the right overall composition, so they can't just be any old group of 50 people, but 50 people with the right number of healers, buffers, debuffers, tanks, and dps) on their speed dial to join in when the respawn happens. Oh, and there's a chance some other group will get the spawn before you.
Frankly, not a lot of people are interested in that. People talk about WoW raiding being a timesink, but EQ was far worse in this regard. And no, this doesn't require more content. It requires the same or less. It's just that you'll get even fewer people interested in it than are interested in what is now more traditional raiding (and even that doesn't have a ton of people).
If you don't mean having all those annoying bits, then how is that different from large-scale DEs in GW2?
You guys have been having a semantics battle for a while. I think you guys just need to make a distinction every time you use the term so that people can understand what you're pointing at. Maybe something like:
Open World Raids
Instanced Raids
You can even add unorganized and organized. But really, if you are just going to use the word "raid," then it does apply to GW2, EQ, WoW and wahtever the hell else has a large group of players fighting something. As long as you are clear to the type of raiding you are trying to discuss, I don't see why there is a problem with using the term to define what GW2 has.
I wouldn't call it a "battle", more of a discussion. : )
And it was just a few posts.
That said, when people talk about "raiding" without any qualifiers the vast majority mean WoW-style raiding (which is instanced raiding, but all instanced raiding need not be WoW-style raiding). They don't mean just anything you can slap the word "raid" on like PvP or open world stuff. It's important to understand that to see where the vast majority of people are coming from when talking about this. Yeah, it's people not using a precise term when one is available, but that's how these things go. Given the level of precision required, I can understand why people don't call this "instanced, progression raiding" and instead just refer to it as "raiding."
But yes, GW2 does have raiding in a sense that most people don't mean when they use the term but is still technically valid. Just saying "GW2 has raiding" is quite misleading/confusing to many for obvious reasons. So let's be clear, GW2 has non-HT, non-instanced/open world, non-progression raiding that doesn't require the formation of specific raid groups and compositions to beat. Quite possibly some of the harder ones will require higher levels of organization than others, however.
Or we could say GW2 doesn't have raiding but does have large scale PvE and everyone will understand what we mean.
You guys have been having a semantics battle for a while. I think you guys just need to make a distinction every time you use the term so that people can understand what you're pointing at. Maybe something like:
Open World Raids
Instanced Raids
You can even add unorganized and organized. But really, if you are just going to use the word "raid," then it does apply to GW2, EQ, WoW and wahtever the hell else has a large group of players fighting something. As long as you are clear to the type of raiding you are trying to discuss, I don't see why there is a problem with using the term to define what GW2 has.
I wouldn't call it a "battle", more of a discussion. : )
And it was just a few posts.
That said, when people talk about "raiding" without any qualifiers the vast majority mean WoW-style raiding (which is instanced raiding, but all instanced raiding need not be WoW-style raiding). They don't mean just anything you can slap the word "raid" on like PvP or open world stuff. It's important to understand that to see where the vast majority of people are coming from when talking about this. Yeah, it's people not using a precise term when one is available, but that's how these things go. Given the level of precision required, I can understand why people don't call this "instanced, progression raiding" and instead just refer to it as "raiding."
But yes, GW2 does have raiding in a sense that most people don't mean when they use the term but is still technically valid. Just saying "GW2 has raiding" is quite misleading/confusing to many for obvious reasons. So let's be clear, GW2 has non-HT, non-instanced/open world, non-progression raiding that doesn't require the formation of specific raid groups and compositions to beat. Quite possibly some of the harder ones will require higher levels of organization than others, however.
Or we could say GW2 doesn't have raiding but does have large scale PvE and everyone will understand what we mean.
Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.
Open World Raiding and Instanced Raiding usually get the message across. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."
You guys have been having a semantics battle for a while. I think you guys just need to make a distinction every time you use the term so that people can understand what you're pointing at. Maybe something like:
Open World Raids
Instanced Raids
You can even add unorganized and organized. But really, if you are just going to use the word "raid," then it does apply to GW2, EQ, WoW and wahtever the hell else has a large group of players fighting something. As long as you are clear to the type of raiding you are trying to discuss, I don't see why there is a problem with using the term to define what GW2 has.
I wouldn't call it a "battle", more of a discussion. : )
And it was just a few posts.
That said, when people talk about "raiding" without any qualifiers the vast majority mean WoW-style raiding (which is instanced raiding, but all instanced raiding need not be WoW-style raiding). They don't mean just anything you can slap the word "raid" on like PvP or open world stuff. It's important to understand that to see where the vast majority of people are coming from when talking about this. Yeah, it's people not using a precise term when one is available, but that's how these things go. Given the level of precision required, I can understand why people don't call this "instanced, progression raiding" and instead just refer to it as "raiding."
But yes, GW2 does have raiding in a sense that most people don't mean when they use the term but is still technically valid. Just saying "GW2 has raiding" is quite misleading/confusing to many for obvious reasons. So let's be clear, GW2 has non-HT, non-instanced/open world, non-progression raiding that doesn't require the formation of specific raid groups and compositions to beat. Quite possibly some of the harder ones will require higher levels of organization than others, however.
Or we could say GW2 doesn't have raiding but does have large scale PvE and everyone will understand what we mean.
agreed:
GW2 has raiding in the form described above.
WOW has raiding with tiered gear stat based progression.
And Other.
If a WOW player declares that their form of raiding is the only viable form they are a fool, and equally with GW2 player. So, who is going to be the first fool to folllow this post, my bet is between 3 and 5 posts :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.
Open World Raiding and Insteanced Raiding ususally get the message accross. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."
I don't need to define what sort of raiding WoW has because basically everyone already knows it. They know it so well that when they use the term "raiding" by itself with no qualifiers, they mean WoW-style raiding.
And we can tell just looking at this thread that, no, most people wouldn't understand from "open world raiding." EQ had that and it had a lot more in common with WoW than GW2 in terms of raiding. Heck, WoW had some open-world raid bosses for a time, and I suppose it still has a handful. But like EQ, fighting this isn't at all like fighting a big DE in GW2.
In short, open world raiding is at best quite vague and at worst it is quite misleading. Certainly there isn't some clear indication about what is meant when you say GW2 has open world raiding. Large scale PvE honestly is clearer because it doesn't have all the raiding baggage. You can get around that baggage, sure, but you do need extra descriptors to clarify what you are talking about.
In time, depending on how large scale PvE events in GW2 are referred to, this might change. But right now that's how it is.
Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.
Open World Raiding and Insteanced Raiding ususally get the message accross. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."
I don't need to define what sort of raiding WoW has because basically everyone already knows it. They know it so well that when they use the term "raiding" by itself with no qualifiers, they mean WoW-style raiding.
And we can tell just looking at this thread that, no, most people wouldn't understand from "open world raiding." EQ had that and it had a lot more in common with WoW than GW2 in terms of raiding. Heck, WoW had some open-world raid bosses for a time, and I suppose it still has a handful. But like EQ, fighting this isn't at all like fighting a big DE in GW2.
In short, open world raiding is at best quite vague and at worst it is quite misleading. Certainly there isn't some clear indication about what is meant when you say GW2 has open world raiding. Large scale PvE honestly is clearer because it doesn't have all the raiding baggage. You can get around that baggage, sure, but you do need extra descriptors to clarify what you are talking about.
In time, depending on how large scale PvE events in GW2 are referred to, this might change. But right now that's how it is.
I think both you and colddog are correct, however where there are arguements about definitions you have to clarify with greater detail not less. Large Scale PVE events are valid, equally large scale open world raid bosses would be the term used in WOW, if such a thing existed in WOW. A raid could be generalised as an event requiring the coordinated effort of a group of players, but so could a 5 man instance. Etc etc, you have to be specific or the arguements are never ending.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.
Open World Raiding and Insteanced Raiding ususally get the message accross. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."
I don't need to define what sort of raiding WoW has because basically everyone already knows it. They know it so well that when they use the term "raiding" by itself with no qualifiers, they mean WoW-style raiding.
And we can tell just looking at this thread that, no, most people wouldn't understand from "open world raiding." EQ had that and it had a lot more in common with WoW than GW2 in terms of raiding. Heck, WoW had some open-world raid bosses for a time, and I suppose it still has a handful. But like EQ, fighting this isn't at all like fighting a big DE in GW2.
In short, open world raiding is at best quite vague and at worst it is quite misleading. Certainly there isn't some clear indication about what is meant when you say GW2 has open world raiding. Large scale PvE honestly is clearer because it doesn't have all the raiding baggage.
I get you. You just went to the extreme in your last post. I still don't discount anyone that considers what GW2 has to be open world raiding. I think it's valid even if it is a toned down version of what EQ had. Actually, I think GW2 is the very definition of open world raiding.
"Large scale PvE" has it's fair share of baggage as well. You could be talking about dynamic events or public quests or rift events. You could be talking about a single boss or a swarm of enemies. You could be describing 100 people or 10 people. You could be talking about attacking keeps or castles. You could be talking about raiding a la WoW.
I still think "open world raiding" is a hell of a lot more descriptive than "Large Scale PvE."
Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.
The same old dungeon over and over again? Farm gold? Run the same dynamic event over and over again?
I'm not a raid supporter or anything. I'm not implying GW2 should have raid. I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do.
Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.
The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.
The same old dungeon over and over again? Farm gold? Run the same dynamic event over and over again?
I'm not a raid supporter or anything. I'm not implying GW2 should have raid. I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do.
Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.
The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
Its part of the end-game, thats the point, its the only point, lets not be dramatic.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Sojhin The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.
More than 5% of WoW's population raids. It did not used to be true, but now, more than 5% of WoW's population completes the current raid content. That's just an observation, it's not terribly important.
It's not the 5% that's meaningful. It's the "top" part. If raiders get grief for anything, that's it. Saying you're in the "top" 5 percent isn't saying you enjoy raiding, it's saying that you are better than the "bottom" 95 percent. It's a more subtle version of gear score and all the annoying behavior that comes from it.
It's one thing to really enjoy raiding. It can be a rewarding experience. It's a different sort of thing to use raiding as the tool by which you measure the worth of other people. I think it would even be fine to use raids to measure a person's worth as a raider. But it never stops there. It's used to measure a person's worth as a gamer.
* Dating? Really? You have performance measurements and life experience to suggest there's a top 5 percent in the realm of dating? Why would you even bother with that? I'm married and I still go on dates with my wife. Does that mean I'm in the top 1%? And Travel? How do you get to be in the top 5 percent of travelers? How do you even measure that? I'm not saying you're wrong about those, but they just don't seem to make sense to me.
** I've been in the "top 5 percent" and there wasn't anything special about doing it. It can't be skill if your gear makes the difference between success and failure. It can't be skill if one of your tanks is asleep or drunk during half the encounters. If it's not skill, then the adjective "top" doesn't apply. Not the way it does in sports.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.
The same old dungeon over and over again? Farm gold? Run the same dynamic event over and over again?
I'm not a raid supporter or anything. I'm not implying GW2 should have raid. I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do.
Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.
The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
In WoW people did achievements and went back and did low level zones after max level. And that's in a game where doing that is insanely boring because most achievements are grindy as heck.
In a game where lower level zones aren't going to be the same when you revisit them and won't be a roflstomp, I expect doing these things will become more popular. And there's lots of other stuff to do beyond them (large scale PvP, WvWvW, arena, going after traits, getting new skills, dungeons, going after certain aethetics, playing with friends as they level, etc).
Seems like there is plenty to do. That assumes you find the gameplay fun and engaging. If you don't, then you probably shouldn't be playing. MMOs have gotten people used to the idea that a game needs to bribe you with goodies in a Skinnerbox to be fun. If we recall, the vast majority of games, even online games, aren't like this. You play them because the PLAY is fun in and of itself. GW2 aims to make sure the play in all zones and areas remains fun and non-static at max level. That really does give you a lot of stuff to do.
It's very different from traditional MMOs where the content is designed to make you replay the same small set of content over and over again. GW2 aims to ensure almost all of its content remains playable and fun at max level. But again, if you don't like the basic DE gameplay, and don't like PVP, your options will be a lot more limited.
Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.
The same old dungeon over and over again? Farm gold? Run the same dynamic event over and over again?
I'm not a raid supporter or anything. I'm not implying GW2 should have raid. I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do.
Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.
The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:
Thats a good example. can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community.
Uhm.. you're wrong.
The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs. By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.
Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.
With the introduction of raid instances, casual players - like me - that were only able to dedicate a couple of hours at a time to playing, were now able to experience the same content that was previously reserved only for those that had spent the majority of their time online.
Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but just wanted to correct you.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:
Thats a good example. can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.
I know man, I know. I'm excited to see what happens to GW2 in the long term because of the implications of the plateau design.
Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community.
Uhm.. you're wrong.
The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs.
By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.
Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.
Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community.
Uhm.. you're wrong.
The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs. By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.
Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.
With the introduction of raid instances, casual players - like me - that were only able to dedicate a couple of hours at a time to playing, were now able to experience the same content that was previously reserved only for those that had spent the majority of their time online.
Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but just wanted to correct you.
The time investment, organization and gear required to run these instanced raids make the exclusive to the people who have free time, are in a sufficient size guild and are able to field the required classes. Not to mention have the appropriate level gear. Then you have all of usual guild drama associated with raiding--asshat leaders, people arguing over gear etc.
Open world raids, as they are handled in GW2, do not exclude anyone, provided that the person is of an appropriate level.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
I'm not going to go into your reason why 90% of the players don't like raiding because it's simply boring, repetitive carrot-on-a-stick driven compulsive behavior. But if they want to add raids for the 10% of players that actually like that kind of thing, then sure, why not?
All I want is for people to not be forced (not even a little) to raid to be on equal footing with raiders. If that's the case then raid away.
I supect however that making raids for the hardcore raiding guilds will just get ArenaNet shot down because you just can't beat WoW at it's own game. The raiders will probably find it not quite as good as WoW and head back eventually. So why waste effort on those that are impossible to please by anything other than a gear grind.
The majority doesn't want it anyways. So Anet would probably be better off not trying to cater to harcore raiders.
I hope you enjoy GW2 for as long as possible and when you need your next raiding fix, you know who will be waiting on you, ready to take your sub for your next tier of gear which will be wothless in a few months anyway.
Comments
+1 This is the reason I dislike raiding, we all spend lots of time working out how a puzzle works and everyone has to be part of this puzzle for it to work, well most anyway. However the down side to this is that only a very few benefit from the end result when it comes to drops and that has always left me empty and been the decision I have stopped raiding and it's highly unlikely that I will ever return for those reasons.
I'm sure if someone looked at the raid concept and developed it further so that everyone could benefit from it then I might be tempted back, but I doubt that will ever happen because most of the games which have raid content demand that you grind their content and they need everyone to spend more time in their world rather than another companies world. So they cannot allow us all to get drops from their game as it cost them money in the long run.
This is another reason why players buy game money from gold farmers as they don't get high end drops and if someone has the money to buy this item then why wouldn't they. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that everyone who raids and fails use gold sellers but most of the people I have spoken to in game have turned out to be like this and have even paid to go on raids to get items.
I'm looking forward to playing the end game in GW2 to see how they manage to keep us all hooked moving forward and I'm sure if they fail then many will just uni-stall it like we have with other games knowing that there is no monthly fee makes it highly unlikely though IMO.
Bandit
Asbo
I understand what you are saying, but its kind of like using an uncommon definition of a word. It's like say someone really hungry who is scarfing down food is in a rage. Technically it applies, but if we've been talking about being angry, that's not really what we're getting at.
So yeah, GW2 does have open world raid bosses in a sense. But if you go back to that wikipedia article, you'll see that pretty much everything it lists as "often" the case with raiding is not in GW2. There's not the immense specialization in classes. There's not raid loot in a traditional sense. The part on raiding guilds is very likely to be laughable. It won't require a investment of hours. Etc, etc.
So while such bosses might fit A definition of raiding, they certainly don't fit the definition that is in common use. I wouldn't say they fit the description of a raid to a "T" either, given how many elements of that wiki article fail to show up. So in the significant sense of "what most people mean when they talk about raiding" GW2 does not have raiding.
Because raiding takes up a lot more than 5% of the development resources? Making arenas for people in teams to PvP against each other doesn't eat up disproportionately massive amounts of dev time.
And from what they've said, there should be some DEs that can't be zerged. They've certainly said some of them will be more difficult than others and are comfortable having some tough DEs that people will have trouble beating.
And I don't see what's so problematic about the WvWvW PvP. It looks like playing it will be a lot of fun, and while playing it you'll have plenty of risk vs. reward. Who cares what the benefits are if you win? Imho, if you need a carrot to enjoy it, then there's something wrong with the game. That said, there are certainly PvP rewards in terms of aesthetics and the like in addition to the WvWvW buff.
You guys have been having a semantics battle for a while. I think you guys just need to make a distinction every time you use the term so that people can understand what you're pointing at. Maybe something like:
Open World Raids
Instanced Raids
You can even add unorganized and organized. But really, if you are just going to use the word "raid," then it does apply to GW2, EQ, WoW and wahtever the hell else has a large group of players fighting something. As long as you are clear to the type of raiding you are trying to discuss, I don't see why there is a problem with using the term to define what GW2 has.
I for one am glad GW2 has no raiding and like I said in a post on here couple weeks ago...if
GW2 isn't for everyone and if it isn't then DON't get it, it just isn't for you...and probably never will be.
Yes, because camping an area 24/7 waiting for a respawn is exactly what adults with social skills should be doing with their time. Especially when they need to have 50 people (who DO need to be the right overall composition, so they can't just be any old group of 50 people, but 50 people with the right number of healers, buffers, debuffers, tanks, and dps) on their speed dial to join in when the respawn happens. Oh, and there's a chance some other group will get the spawn before you.
Frankly, not a lot of people are interested in that. People talk about WoW raiding being a timesink, but EQ was far worse in this regard. And no, this doesn't require more content. It requires the same or less. It's just that you'll get even fewer people interested in it than are interested in what is now more traditional raiding (and even that doesn't have a ton of people).
If you don't mean having all those annoying bits, then how is that different from large-scale DEs in GW2?
I wouldn't call it a "battle", more of a discussion. : )
And it was just a few posts.
That said, when people talk about "raiding" without any qualifiers the vast majority mean WoW-style raiding (which is instanced raiding, but all instanced raiding need not be WoW-style raiding). They don't mean just anything you can slap the word "raid" on like PvP or open world stuff. It's important to understand that to see where the vast majority of people are coming from when talking about this. Yeah, it's people not using a precise term when one is available, but that's how these things go. Given the level of precision required, I can understand why people don't call this "instanced, progression raiding" and instead just refer to it as "raiding."
But yes, GW2 does have raiding in a sense that most people don't mean when they use the term but is still technically valid. Just saying "GW2 has raiding" is quite misleading/confusing to many for obvious reasons. So let's be clear, GW2 has non-HT, non-instanced/open world, non-progression raiding that doesn't require the formation of specific raid groups and compositions to beat. Quite possibly some of the harder ones will require higher levels of organization than others, however.
Or we could say GW2 doesn't have raiding but does have large scale PvE and everyone will understand what we mean.
Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.
Open World Raiding and Instanced Raiding usually get the message across. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."
agreed:
GW2 has raiding in the form described above.
WOW has raiding with tiered gear stat based progression.
And Other.
If a WOW player declares that their form of raiding is the only viable form they are a fool, and equally with GW2 player. So, who is going to be the first fool to folllow this post, my bet is between 3 and 5 posts :P
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
What do you mean "I'm in no way bashing"?
Okay, maybe you are not. Maybe you are just trying to put your beautiful worldview on anyone elses. Way to go military guy.
I don't need to define what sort of raiding WoW has because basically everyone already knows it. They know it so well that when they use the term "raiding" by itself with no qualifiers, they mean WoW-style raiding.
And we can tell just looking at this thread that, no, most people wouldn't understand from "open world raiding." EQ had that and it had a lot more in common with WoW than GW2 in terms of raiding. Heck, WoW had some open-world raid bosses for a time, and I suppose it still has a handful. But like EQ, fighting this isn't at all like fighting a big DE in GW2.
In short, open world raiding is at best quite vague and at worst it is quite misleading. Certainly there isn't some clear indication about what is meant when you say GW2 has open world raiding. Large scale PvE honestly is clearer because it doesn't have all the raiding baggage. You can get around that baggage, sure, but you do need extra descriptors to clarify what you are talking about.
In time, depending on how large scale PvE events in GW2 are referred to, this might change. But right now that's how it is.
I think both you and colddog are correct, however where there are arguements about definitions you have to clarify with greater detail not less. Large Scale PVE events are valid, equally large scale open world raid bosses would be the term used in WOW, if such a thing existed in WOW. A raid could be generalised as an event requiring the coordinated effort of a group of players, but so could a 5 man instance. Etc etc, you have to be specific or the arguements are never ending.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I get you. You just went to the extreme in your last post. I still don't discount anyone that considers what GW2 has to be open world raiding. I think it's valid even if it is a toned down version of what EQ had. Actually, I think GW2 is the very definition of open world raiding.
"Large scale PvE" has it's fair share of baggage as well. You could be talking about dynamic events or public quests or rift events. You could be talking about a single boss or a swarm of enemies. You could be describing 100 people or 10 people. You could be talking about attacking keeps or castles. You could be talking about raiding a la WoW.
I still think "open world raiding" is a hell of a lot more descriptive than "Large Scale PvE."
at least you are being honest. I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame. It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do.
Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.
Its part of the end-game, thats the point, its the only point, lets not be dramatic.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
More than 5% of WoW's population raids. It did not used to be true, but now, more than 5% of WoW's population completes the current raid content. That's just an observation, it's not terribly important.
It's not the 5% that's meaningful. It's the "top" part. If raiders get grief for anything, that's it. Saying you're in the "top" 5 percent isn't saying you enjoy raiding, it's saying that you are better than the "bottom" 95 percent. It's a more subtle version of gear score and all the annoying behavior that comes from it.
It's one thing to really enjoy raiding. It can be a rewarding experience. It's a different sort of thing to use raiding as the tool by which you measure the worth of other people. I think it would even be fine to use raids to measure a person's worth as a raider. But it never stops there. It's used to measure a person's worth as a gamer.
* Dating? Really? You have performance measurements and life experience to suggest there's a top 5 percent in the realm of dating? Why would you even bother with that? I'm married and I still go on dates with my wife. Does that mean I'm in the top 1%? And Travel? How do you get to be in the top 5 percent of travelers? How do you even measure that? I'm not saying you're wrong about those, but they just don't seem to make sense to me.
** I've been in the "top 5 percent" and there wasn't anything special about doing it. It can't be skill if your gear makes the difference between success and failure. It can't be skill if one of your tanks is asleep or drunk during half the encounters. If it's not skill, then the adjective "top" doesn't apply. Not the way it does in sports.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:
http://www.wowhead.com/achievements=1.168.14806
In WoW people did achievements and went back and did low level zones after max level. And that's in a game where doing that is insanely boring because most achievements are grindy as heck.
In a game where lower level zones aren't going to be the same when you revisit them and won't be a roflstomp, I expect doing these things will become more popular. And there's lots of other stuff to do beyond them (large scale PvP, WvWvW, arena, going after traits, getting new skills, dungeons, going after certain aethetics, playing with friends as they level, etc).
Seems like there is plenty to do. That assumes you find the gameplay fun and engaging. If you don't, then you probably shouldn't be playing. MMOs have gotten people used to the idea that a game needs to bribe you with goodies in a Skinnerbox to be fun. If we recall, the vast majority of games, even online games, aren't like this. You play them because the PLAY is fun in and of itself. GW2 aims to make sure the play in all zones and areas remains fun and non-static at max level. That really does give you a lot of stuff to do.
It's very different from traditional MMOs where the content is designed to make you replay the same small set of content over and over again. GW2 aims to ensure almost all of its content remains playable and fun at max level. But again, if you don't like the basic DE gameplay, and don't like PVP, your options will be a lot more limited.
Thats a good example. can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Uhm.. you're wrong.
The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs. By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.
Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.
With the introduction of raid instances, casual players - like me - that were only able to dedicate a couple of hours at a time to playing, were now able to experience the same content that was previously reserved only for those that had spent the majority of their time online.
Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but just wanted to correct you.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I know man, I know. I'm excited to see what happens to GW2 in the long term because of the implications of the plateau design.
well said
EQ2 fan sites
The time investment, organization and gear required to run these instanced raids make the exclusive to the people who have free time, are in a sufficient size guild and are able to field the required classes. Not to mention have the appropriate level gear. Then you have all of usual guild drama associated with raiding--asshat leaders, people arguing over gear etc.
Open world raids, as they are handled in GW2, do not exclude anyone, provided that the person is of an appropriate level.
Always love this one.
#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
I'm not going to go into your reason why 90% of the players don't like raiding because it's simply boring, repetitive carrot-on-a-stick driven compulsive behavior. But if they want to add raids for the 10% of players that actually like that kind of thing, then sure, why not?
All I want is for people to not be forced (not even a little) to raid to be on equal footing with raiders. If that's the case then raid away.
I supect however that making raids for the hardcore raiding guilds will just get ArenaNet shot down because you just can't beat WoW at it's own game. The raiders will probably find it not quite as good as WoW and head back eventually. So why waste effort on those that are impossible to please by anything other than a gear grind.
The majority doesn't want it anyways. So Anet would probably be better off not trying to cater to harcore raiders.
I hope you enjoy GW2 for as long as possible and when you need your next raiding fix, you know who will be waiting on you, ready to take your sub for your next tier of gear which will be wothless in a few months anyway.