This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
Nothing wrong with it; it's just that we want one game for people who aren't the 5%. Raiders already own every other game, so let us have one at least.
This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.
But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.
To be fair, we don't know how difficult these encounters will be in higher level zones, like Orr.
Either way, it's a good thing that MoP is coming out in a month. I'm sure that Blizzard will include a few new raids to satisfy the raiders. Plus Rift is coming out with a new expansion, there's bound to be a raid or two there.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
i loved vanilla WoW. I played through BC and a little of Wrath, but not once did I do a raid. WoW was ridiculously fun until BC came out. Raiding became the end all be all and was more like a carrot than fun. I did things with friends and people I met in game and had a blast doing that, but raiding took too much time and I had a life outside the game. I think raiding large scale for hours nonstop is a waste of time. I can do the explorable mode, but anything beyond 2 hours of the same gameplay or instanced area is too much for me. WoW lost its magic with BC, and I hope GW2 doesn't end up making the same marketing choices.
Well I see it does not stop people complain so much about GW2 not having instance raids is getting old guys come on 1 game out of over 750+ with instance raiding isnt the end of the world. I dont raid at all anymore caue I find it stupied to make such huge games to only have you get to the high lvl content leaving the other 95% of the game wasted except for lvling. Thats why I say a company that would make a lobby based raid game would be great for raiders but the complained they would not have an open world why your only playing to raid the rest of the game is wasted.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.
Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up. I later realized we needed to pickup/drink some potion that gave invinsibility for a couple seconds in order to beat him but that could never have happened with the pick up group that I was playing with..
Also if you look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU midway into the vid in the underwater room you'll see that you need good coordination just to unlock a door.
This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.
But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.
I prefer that GW2 does not go to the excessive extreme either but at the same time the game seems to suffer atm because it has not allowed for anything other then instanced pvp on one end of the scale, esport pvp in the middle, and pve content on the other end that is--throw another body at it and win. There does not seem enough freedom for the people who want to push the limits at all levels of gameplay with the artificial limiters and I am unconvinced that the esport middle option can last if the other two options do not have much risk vs reward.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.
Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up.
I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.
I have raided a lot in WoW -- in fact I've led a lot of raids -- and there are some things I like about it.
I liked going on mostly blind and figuring out the battles.
I liked working with other people and being organized.
Basically the teamwork and intellectual challenge is fun.
Unfortunately, there's a lot to not like.
I don't like how going in blind is really hard to do. It's hard to find people who will accept doing that.
I don't like having to look up the boss fights and strategies, otherwise people will complain.
I don't like having to tell a good friend they can't come because they aren't good enough.
I don't like balance changes to classes because of raiding when problems don't appear anywhere else in the game.
I don't like how choreographed all the fights are. They all get old really quickly. Admittedly, this isn't an inherent problem with raiding, but it is a difficult problem to overcome if you want large battles that are tightly tuned.
I don't like how random the loot drops are and fights that would occasionally happen (even with a distribution system...heck, fights over the distribution system are annoying too).
I don't like how it forces you and all your friends to conform to a tight schedule and spend hours and hours on it.
I don't like the amount of resources making tightly balanced raids eats up. I'd rather it be spent on other things. I'd rather have several tough 5-mans or a new GW2 zone than a new raid.
I don't care for a challenge design that's "you make 3 mistakes and everyone dies", you must do everything just SO. I prefer fighting that is more "realistic" than that. You go in with some tactics and general strategy, and then you have to think on your feet. 5-mans this isn't too bad, but when you're dealing with 10 or 25 people, it's annoying as heck. Unfortunately, it's an inherent problem of the design philosophy of raiding and raiding games as we know them.
Nor do I care for the fact that raids in traditional games give gear that makes 5-mans none too challenging. I don't like how content becomes obsolete. There'd be a lot of pressure on Arena.Net to do this if they had raiding.
Overall I prefer tough 5-mans to raiding in past games. The game itself gives you much more feedback about how well you are doing in a 5-man (since you are 20% or so of the fighting force, rather than 4-10%). It's easier to get 5-mans together. You can decide to do one spontaneously. It's easier to work with someone if they are not doing well -- and one friend doing badly only hurts 4 other people as opposed to 9 or 24 others.
I like how GW2 is moving away from all that. Large PvE battles in the open where anyone can join is a much better way to handle things. You can still work with your friends that show up and figure out the fight on your own. I've done that in large-scale PvP and its rewarding. It won't be tightly balanced, but dungeons please me just fine in that regard, especially given the consequences of tightly balancing things.
This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.
But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.
I prefer that GW2 does not go to the excessive extreme either but at the same time the game seems to suffer atm because it has not allowed for anything other then instanced pvp on one end of the scale, esport pvp in the middle, and pve content on the other end that is--throw another body at it and win. There does not seem enough freedom for the people who want to push the limits at all levels of gameplay with the artificial limiters and I am unconvinced that the esport middle option can last if the other two options do not have much risk vs reward.
Well, you are leaving out dungeons (which actually are, at least in the BWEs, extremely difficult). And I'm pretty sure you are leaving out WvW (unless you are calling that instanced PvP. It is not instanced).
I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.
I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.
I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.
Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.
The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players. Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult. Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them. Ugh. I'd rather get other content instead.
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).
I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.
That giant is a pain in the arss that makes most raid bosses look like hello kitty he has an AOE of DOOM so its beeter to say back and range him down.
The char fire shaman in the starter area is a complete pain or was during BWE1 he would one shot a group of 50 in easy then continue to whip anyone else that tried.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Originally posted by Asuran24 The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).
And thus, if ArenaNet ever considers putting in raiding, they need to realize that it's only one part of the content, not the only part that matters like so many developers before them think.
If they can do that, and do it without causing everything else to become obsolete, then I have no problems with raiding.
Of course, they should frankly first get everything else sorted before they attempt something like this.
Originally posted by Asuran24 The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).
What you ignore is that raiding becomes a huge focus because making raids is a massive amount of effort.
Now, WoW theoretically could have done raids and a lot of other content too. Heck, WoW is probably the only game that's ever been on the market that made enough money to potentially have been able to make content faster than players could get through it. But they'd have to have hired on more people and that would have eaten into their massive profit margin.
Point is, one raid is the equivalent of a massive amount of other sorts of content. Given the fact companies have limited resources, going with raiding does mean massive sacrifices in other areas. That's why such games are designed around raiding, since they are pouring so many resources into it, they want to make sure people play it since they can't do a lot of other content.
I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well.
Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.
Originally posted by Asuran24 The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).
Nothing against what you said but you replying from a cell or iPad its hard to read a block of words.
As for your post I can see what you mean but DEV's need to step back and say him we only have these in the game for a very small player base what do we do for the others that dont raid. Those players that dont raid get stuck with most of the time one zone to mess around in for 6 months to a several yrs and thats not fun. Even EQ2's new expansion is like I said above but they have this huge world thats being left out which if they added the down lvling to and gear rewards like GW2 would be awsome make it so much better for none raiders.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.
Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.
The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players. Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult. Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them. Ugh. I'd rather get other content instead.
I agree in the long run i would rather have mre small scale content added to a game then larger scale content, but not to the point of fully omitting any large scale from the game (For me DE content is kinda a mix of both as it is build to be used by all sizes of groups largely as such i would say it is more of variable content then small or large scale.). Yet here is the issue in many games even when they add a raid to the game's content line-up it is never just the raid normally, as it normally has several smaller scale content instances packaged in with it or quite close by, but the other issue is gw2 being b2p might change their ability to keep up such a content upkeep. Even using wow as an example they got many of their raids either came with an adition instance/s or the playerbase was not even yet to where they needed more content to pay thru (such as when many of the bc raids hit in wow the playerbase was still largely trying to clear many fo the herocs and first few raids.).
I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well.
Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.
Yeah, I get that. Difficulty isn't hard enough to keep you interested in PvE.
What I want them to do is, once they spread out and make a lot more zones and content, I want them to occasionally make entire zones filled with DEs and enemies that require 10+ people to even attempt. There is a lot of potential for a huge variety of activies to be developed and stay valid for the life of the game through the removal of the gear treadmill. We'll see what they actually do though.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
You missed a reason.
Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.
Exactly. And there's no gear progression in GW2.
So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever.
People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss. But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.
Raids is good in some games for sure But in GW2 with such mechanics Raids wil be huge mess. With out healers and tanks it will be just 30 ppl rolling around trying to hit boss and half of them will be dead every 10 seconds while other half will be running in circles trying to revive ppl.
Also yes Raids in game showing gamers age GW2 made for fun so ppl with work and lifes can enjoy it fully. Any heavy Raiding gear farming game focuses on School age teenagers so they can stay in game for more than 4 hours.
It is fun to coordinate with team yes but after long day i dont want to sit near entrance waiting for other ppl to come so we can farm same old boss for some useless piece of gear. Also its always Must come to raid and i personally dont want to raid every day, once a week yeah sure why not. But raiding is nothg but farming for gear and fun only for first 2 kills. Subscription based games like WoW MUST have raids so ppl will waste lots of time in it with a feeling like they are doing somethg. in Normall game we dont need to farm pixels to be able to enjoy content.
I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well.
Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.
Yeah, I get that. Difficulty isn't hard enough to keep you interested in PvE.
What I want them to do is, once they spread out and make a lot more zones and content, I want them to occasionally make entire zones filled with DEs and enemies that require 10+ people to even attempt. There is a lot of potential for a huge variety of activies to be developed and stay valid for the life of the game through the removal of the gear treadmill. We'll see what they actually do though.
I've heard the dungeons get VERY hard in explorable.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
You missed a reason.
Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.
Exactly. And there's no gear progression in GW2.
So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever.
People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss. But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.
Look here there is its more of a equal progression then a steep progression.
Comments
This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.
Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience?
Nothing wrong with it; it's just that we want one game for people who aren't the 5%. Raiders already own every other game, so let us have one at least.
I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.
But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.
To be fair, we don't know how difficult these encounters will be in higher level zones, like Orr.
Either way, it's a good thing that MoP is coming out in a month. I'm sure that Blizzard will include a few new raids to satisfy the raiders. Plus Rift is coming out with a new expansion, there's bound to be a raid or two there.
i loved vanilla WoW. I played through BC and a little of Wrath, but not once did I do a raid. WoW was ridiculously fun until BC came out. Raiding became the end all be all and was more like a carrot than fun. I did things with friends and people I met in game and had a blast doing that, but raiding took too much time and I had a life outside the game. I think raiding large scale for hours nonstop is a waste of time. I can do the explorable mode, but anything beyond 2 hours of the same gameplay or instanced area is too much for me. WoW lost its magic with BC, and I hope GW2 doesn't end up making the same marketing choices.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up. I later realized we needed to pickup/drink some potion that gave invinsibility for a couple seconds in order to beat him but that could never have happened with the pick up group that I was playing with..
Also if you look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU midway into the vid in the underwater room you'll see that you need good coordination just to unlock a door.
I prefer that GW2 does not go to the excessive extreme either but at the same time the game seems to suffer atm because it has not allowed for anything other then instanced pvp on one end of the scale, esport pvp in the middle, and pve content on the other end that is--throw another body at it and win. There does not seem enough freedom for the people who want to push the limits at all levels of gameplay with the artificial limiters and I am unconvinced that the esport middle option can last if the other two options do not have much risk vs reward.
I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.
Are you talking about the fire shaman by the way?
I have raided a lot in WoW -- in fact I've led a lot of raids -- and there are some things I like about it.
I liked going on mostly blind and figuring out the battles.
I liked working with other people and being organized.
Basically the teamwork and intellectual challenge is fun.
Unfortunately, there's a lot to not like.
I don't like how going in blind is really hard to do. It's hard to find people who will accept doing that.
I don't like having to look up the boss fights and strategies, otherwise people will complain.
I don't like having to tell a good friend they can't come because they aren't good enough.
I don't like balance changes to classes because of raiding when problems don't appear anywhere else in the game.
I don't like how choreographed all the fights are. They all get old really quickly. Admittedly, this isn't an inherent problem with raiding, but it is a difficult problem to overcome if you want large battles that are tightly tuned.
I don't like how random the loot drops are and fights that would occasionally happen (even with a distribution system...heck, fights over the distribution system are annoying too).
I don't like how it forces you and all your friends to conform to a tight schedule and spend hours and hours on it.
I don't like the amount of resources making tightly balanced raids eats up. I'd rather it be spent on other things. I'd rather have several tough 5-mans or a new GW2 zone than a new raid.
I don't care for a challenge design that's "you make 3 mistakes and everyone dies", you must do everything just SO. I prefer fighting that is more "realistic" than that. You go in with some tactics and general strategy, and then you have to think on your feet. 5-mans this isn't too bad, but when you're dealing with 10 or 25 people, it's annoying as heck. Unfortunately, it's an inherent problem of the design philosophy of raiding and raiding games as we know them.
Nor do I care for the fact that raids in traditional games give gear that makes 5-mans none too challenging. I don't like how content becomes obsolete. There'd be a lot of pressure on Arena.Net to do this if they had raiding.
Overall I prefer tough 5-mans to raiding in past games. The game itself gives you much more feedback about how well you are doing in a 5-man (since you are 20% or so of the fighting force, rather than 4-10%). It's easier to get 5-mans together. You can decide to do one spontaneously. It's easier to work with someone if they are not doing well -- and one friend doing badly only hurts 4 other people as opposed to 9 or 24 others.
I like how GW2 is moving away from all that. Large PvE battles in the open where anyone can join is a much better way to handle things. You can still work with your friends that show up and figure out the fight on your own. I've done that in large-scale PvP and its rewarding. It won't be tightly balanced, but dungeons please me just fine in that regard, especially given the consequences of tightly balancing things.
Well, you are leaving out dungeons (which actually are, at least in the BWEs, extremely difficult). And I'm pretty sure you are leaving out WvW (unless you are calling that instanced PvP. It is not instanced).
I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btldoS1jFbo
This guy
Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.
The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players. Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult. Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them. Ugh. I'd rather get other content instead.
That giant is a pain in the arss that makes most raid bosses look like hello kitty he has an AOE of DOOM so its beeter to say back and range him down.
The char fire shaman in the starter area is a complete pain or was during BWE1 he would one shot a group of 50 in easy then continue to whip anyone else that tried.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
And thus, if ArenaNet ever considers putting in raiding, they need to realize that it's only one part of the content, not the only part that matters like so many developers before them think.
If they can do that, and do it without causing everything else to become obsolete, then I have no problems with raiding.
Of course, they should frankly first get everything else sorted before they attempt something like this.
What you ignore is that raiding becomes a huge focus because making raids is a massive amount of effort.
Now, WoW theoretically could have done raids and a lot of other content too. Heck, WoW is probably the only game that's ever been on the market that made enough money to potentially have been able to make content faster than players could get through it. But they'd have to have hired on more people and that would have eaten into their massive profit margin.
Point is, one raid is the equivalent of a massive amount of other sorts of content. Given the fact companies have limited resources, going with raiding does mean massive sacrifices in other areas. That's why such games are designed around raiding, since they are pouring so many resources into it, they want to make sure people play it since they can't do a lot of other content.
I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well.
Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.
Nothing against what you said but you replying from a cell or iPad its hard to read a block of words.
As for your post I can see what you mean but DEV's need to step back and say him we only have these in the game for a very small player base what do we do for the others that dont raid. Those players that dont raid get stuck with most of the time one zone to mess around in for 6 months to a several yrs and thats not fun. Even EQ2's new expansion is like I said above but they have this huge world thats being left out which if they added the down lvling to and gear rewards like GW2 would be awsome make it so much better for none raiders.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
I agree in the long run i would rather have mre small scale content added to a game then larger scale content, but not to the point of fully omitting any large scale from the game (For me DE content is kinda a mix of both as it is build to be used by all sizes of groups largely as such i would say it is more of variable content then small or large scale.). Yet here is the issue in many games even when they add a raid to the game's content line-up it is never just the raid normally, as it normally has several smaller scale content instances packaged in with it or quite close by, but the other issue is gw2 being b2p might change their ability to keep up such a content upkeep. Even using wow as an example they got many of their raids either came with an adition instance/s or the playerbase was not even yet to where they needed more content to pay thru (such as when many of the bc raids hit in wow the playerbase was still largely trying to clear many fo the herocs and first few raids.).
Yeah, I get that. Difficulty isn't hard enough to keep you interested in PvE.
What I want them to do is, once they spread out and make a lot more zones and content, I want them to occasionally make entire zones filled with DEs and enemies that require 10+ people to even attempt. There is a lot of potential for a huge variety of activies to be developed and stay valid for the life of the game through the removal of the gear treadmill. We'll see what they actually do though.
Exactly. And there's no gear progression in GW2.
So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever.
People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss. But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.
Raids is good in some games for sure But in GW2 with such mechanics Raids wil be huge mess. With out healers and tanks it will be just 30 ppl rolling around trying to hit boss and half of them will be dead every 10 seconds while other half will be running in circles trying to revive ppl.
Also yes Raids in game showing gamers age GW2 made for fun so ppl with work and lifes can enjoy it fully. Any heavy Raiding gear farming game focuses on School age teenagers so they can stay in game for more than 4 hours.
It is fun to coordinate with team yes but after long day i dont want to sit near entrance waiting for other ppl to come so we can farm same old boss for some useless piece of gear. Also its always Must come to raid and i personally dont want to raid every day, once a week yeah sure why not. But raiding is nothg but farming for gear and fun only for first 2 kills. Subscription based games like WoW MUST have raids so ppl will waste lots of time in it with a feeling like they are doing somethg. in Normall game we dont need to farm pixels to be able to enjoy content.
I've heard the dungeons get VERY hard in explorable.
Look here there is its more of a equal progression then a steep progression.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw