Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.
This doesn't really make sense, since the alternative to "slogging through the same boss fights" is "slogging through the same solo / group trash fights" which generally tend to be a lot less interesting. MMOs are built on repetition... doing very similar fights over and over and over and over again. By having more or different people involved in the encounter, you change the encounter, so it becomes less repetitive. But at the end of the day.. I'm thinking that people that don't like repetition simply don't play MMOs, since all MMOs are repetitive by design.
Also, for the record, i do consider what GW2 has to be raids. I just don't consider them well-designed or good for organized cooperative play, but they're there and they're raids.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Also I think GW2 trumps all MMOs in teamwork as how one's character can affect other characters in a much greater degree than other MMOs through their skills, cross profession combos, reviving, and what else where other MMOs was largely self focus.
Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.
This doesn't really make sense, since the alternative to "slogging through the same boss fights" is "slogging through the same solo / group trash fights" which generally tend to be a lot less interesting. MMOs are built on repetition... doing very similar fights over and over and over and over again. By having more or different people involved in the encounter, you change the encounter, so it becomes less repetitive. But at the end of the day.. I'm thinking that people that don't like repetition simply don't play MMOs, since all MMOs are repetitive by design.
Also, for the record, i do consider what GW2 has to be raids. I just don't consider them well-designed or good for organized cooperative play, but they're there and they're raids.
You can choose to ... choose different mobs/camps to hunt at can you not so it's not the same ones all the time? Move around some? Can't do that with Raids but you can do that out hunting as a group... assuming the MMO you play has a big enough world to allow for this (I play LotRO still some and that ingame world is more than big enough to add a ton of variety to a group outing).
Use your imagination and go somewhere else for a change ingame. Explore that virtual world and enjoy it. The Devs will appreciate that people actually see and use the areas they worked so hard to make.
You can change up the Players yes, or you can change up the Itinerary.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
You forgot about some players that have raided hard and are bored of that shit.
Usually partys lacks Tanks (mostly) or healers.... sick of waiting for them..or cancelling Raids for that.
Tired of forcing players to play certain roll they dislike to play to fill roster for Raids.
Tired of WIPES...real hardcore time sinks. SICK of
After beeing a social,active,semi skilled in PVE,hardcore player......i´m just TIRED of it.
You can play very FUN videogames (and now even a MMO!!!) that changes that for good! or just for a break..your choice.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
I agree with some of what you wrote. I think people who like raiding are a certain personality type. I mean that literally, like ESTJ, for example, from the Myers-Briggs Type indicator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
It's just like certain personality types should be police officers, EMTs, office managers, librarians, big wave surfers, etc. So raiding is "fun" for you. It's not for me. I like exploration and pvp. Raiding feels like work. You can't say someone is "lazy" because they don't like to play a game the way you do. But there are people who are lazy and want to be carried, so I'm not totally discrediting what you said.
MMORPGs should accomodate all personality types (as long as they are not lazy and expect to be given everything easily ). ;-)
Those of us don't like raiding shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens. We should have alternatives for the kind of gaming we like to do. For example, I want the best gear to be available for people who like "grinding" pvp instead of raids -- on an equal footing with raid gear.
EDIT: And I did spend about 6 months raiding in a very good raiding guild in WoW. That 's where I get my opinion from about the personality types. I did it and it was interesting for a while. Now, I feel like I've already played that type of game enough and I want to move on to other things. I'm not interested in repeating gear grinding games. Some people like that and it's fine, of course, but I want to play other types of games and I don't want that model to infect every single mmorpg that comes out. So that's why a lot of people are happy that there is no raiding in GW2 (for once).
Originally posted by 7star Originally posted by KrimzinAfter reading these type posts for some time Ive come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.There are typically a few reasons people dont like Raiding. They dont have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. They dont have a personality to speak of so they dont play well with others. They are too lazy to do the work, example They dont want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid Ive raided in every game Ive played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because Im ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events. I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but its a far cry for a raid. If they dont, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
I agree with some of what you wrote. I think people who like raiding are a certain personality type. I mean that literally, like ESTJ, for example, from the Myers-Briggs Type indicator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
It's just like certain personality types should be police officers, EMTs, office managers, librarians, big wave surfers, etc. So raiding is "fun" for you. It's not for me. I like exploration and pvp. Raiding feels like work. You can't say someone is "lazy" because they don't like to play a game the way you do. But there are people who are lazy and want to be carried, so I'm not totally discrediting what you said.
MMORPGs should accomodate all personality types (as long as they are not lazy and expect to be given everything easily ). ;-)
Those of us don't like raiding shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens. We should have alternatives for the kind of gaming we like to do. For example, I want the best gear to be available for people who like "grinding" pvp instead of raids -- on an equal footing with raid gear.
I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like that there's no raiding because I've done a lot of raiding and it's not fun to me now.
After a while it feels more like a chore than fun having to schedule things/worry bout people not showing up and all that. It's even worse when you feel like there's nothing to do but wait for some lockout time/respawn on the raid to be up so you can do it again.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
I feel like this thread is as redundant as me making thread called "End Game haters are coming out of the woodwork"
Hey look, I can make a thread about an opinionated fact as well, probly throu some mud around and watch the sparks fly as I sit back, /popcorn, and twiddling my fingers evilly going "yes... yes... feed my hunger... bring out the trolls... yes...."
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that.
Yes.
And it's been time for a change for quite a while.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
I say it's about time. I'm tired of every game under the sun catering to a vocal minority of their playerbase, while the rest of us are left with scraps.
I actually hope that ArenaNet never implements instanced raids but rather adds more open world raid-like encounters which are accessible by all players of appropriate level. Screw the exclusivity nonsense championed in other games.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Really? Your answer to people who don't care for raiding is that they either just can't raid due to time constraints or they have some sort of character, competency or mental deficiency?
I could just as easily say that Raiders are just sheeple who go along with the herd, never even comprehending that they have just become willing rats in a maze that doesn't actually go any where, trotting along on a virtual treadmill, persuing a carrot they will never, ever catch up to. That may be true for some raiders, but it would be idiotic to make it a generalization to be applied to all, or even the majority of Raiders.
You know, it is possible for people to have different opinions, likes or preferences than you, with out there being any correlations at all to be made between intellect, competency or character for people on one side or another of an issue.
I know people who raid, but will admit they don't really enjoy it beyond the fact that they are able to help friends and guildmates in something that they enjoy. I also know that there are many more people who extend their MMO play time via alts than via end game raiding.
I still remember waiting in line for a midnight opening for The Burning Crusade at the local gamestop. I talked to a number of people and I was surprised how few of the people waiting to get the game the minute it released didn't even have a single character at the level cap.
End game raids have always been a substitute for "real" content and many devs have admitted as much, sometimes apologetically. It just hasn't been practical to provide enough world content to keep people playing for more than a month or two. Raids and the end game treadmill were an economical way to keep people who have powered through world content playing.
There will be dungeon content for people at the level cap in GW2. There will also be world content best suited for large groups of players. With level scaling, guild PvE events can actually take place in the game world and include members of a wide range of character levels. Level 80 world content, like the entire zone of Orr, will also be very well suited for those who like a challenge once they reach the level cap.
There just won't be an endless gear grind treadmill and ongoing content expansion will include content for all level ranges, rather than being devoted to the fanatical few who consume the end game raid content that dominates most MMOs today.
There are plenty of end game raid MMOs and for people who care only about end game raiding. GW2 offers a different approach and I think even many raiders who play the game will realize by the time they reach level 80 that they won't miss the absence of an end game raiding treadmill. Some may never go back to that mode of play ever again.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
"Position of power?"
What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Actually its those like you coming out of the woodwork.. those trying to say why GW2 should have raiding.. oh and you forgot to add "I am tired of raiding for years like a job on an endless cycle of gear looking worse and worse and fights getting redundant" I hardcore raided most of WoW's existance.. from the first Magmadar kill on Tichondrius to Nef reincarnate. So tired of the BS and reasons there is raiding at all. It just isnt needed to have fun and Anet has proven that.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
"Position of power?"
What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness
What type of gameplay has consistently dominated the type of content we receive? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay has caused every other type of gameplay to be designed to funnel you to Raiding? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay causes so much grief on various forums, causing for cries from the minority to make it impossibly exclusive to their minority alone? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay enforces rigid scheduling and extreme repetition in order to get to the next tier? Raiding.
Crafting is rendered useless by raiding because only the best materials come from raids, and even the stuff you make from crafting is useless once you get the best gear out of that raid. PVP is an afterthought at best, with the occasional battleground or arena to make it look like they give a damn. Leveling is braindead trivial because endgame is the only part that matters in the grand scheme of things. Making alts is generally pointless since you will be far behind if you don't raid.
TL;DR: Traditional raiding has rendered everything that isn't raiding almost pointless to do in the long term.
Even though there have been changes to make it more accessible, it's still a pretty exclusive gameplay style, and one that I would prefer not be included in GW2. Besides, raids are just bigger dungeons in the long term, just more loot, more crap to dodge, and more screaming at you for making an error.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
"Position of power?"
What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness
No, it actually makes perfect sense. Being a vocal minority that demands 95%+ of non-expansion content developement is a "position of power". Catering to the 5% that are power players has largely been responsible for the lack of innovation seen in the genre since WoW launched.
It's been much easier for many developers to just skimp on PvE content and worldspace, in favor of a focus on providing an end game raiding treadmill. This only seemed reasonable because of the attitude among the vocal power-playing minority that "PvE is nothing but the boring stuff" that you need to do before you reach "end game".
Back in EQ glory days I was in a guild. Once we figured out about the planes we were off on HIGH ADVENTURE!!! We went into these places not caring much about the loot but for the experience. Since you could lose levels you had to be really careful. One person doing the wrong thing could get the whole raid killed and you could lose a whole week of exp in one death. The stakes were so high then. We went into these places and came out almost always poorer and a few weeks exp gone. I went to the Plane of Fear with my guild like 4 times and then I got a drop that wasn't even for my class. I got lucky on a roll. I then traded that item for something I could use and I was in love with raiding. I think though at the time it was more about the adventure and not the loot.
Then came WoW. Initially there was only the Molten Core and it took me like 2 trips to it to realize that raiding was no longer for me. I did the math and it just didn't add up. I looked at all the people in my guild and how much loot dropped and since WoW decided to go with the bind on pick up route. I realized I would have to come here some many times that it just wasn't worth it. Raids took us about 4-6 hours to do and the guild was going there once a week. For another stupid ass reason that was all you were allowed to go there per week. We would have been living in that place if they would have let us. The geedy SOB's though knew this and only allowed you one trip per week. Needing 35-40 people at the time all maxxed level and geared to handle the plae was to me just beyond stupid. So it was then I turned my back on raiding. It was never because of laziness it wasn't because I was antisocial. It was just plain no fun to me.
As WoW evolved the lessened some of the constraints on the raid dungeons but even then I couldn't go back because I saw it for what it was. Blizzards time sink to keep people in the game for loot. This was a far cry from what playing a MMO should played for. Its sad when the guild meeting consisted of have to meet on vent and remembering the instuctions of how to beat boss X. My last raid experience in WoW was a 25 man in Zul Grub. I was excited because it had been a while since I went on a raid. Most of my time in WoW was spent making High Warlord in pvp. We go in and make it to the 1st boss and we failed over and over. After about 2 hours one on vent started sharing the instuctions which he looked up on how to beat this boss. 2 hours later we still couldn't do it. That whne it hit me. this isn't adventure this is just plain stupid. Later we figured out how to beat the boss and the others but, I just couldnt get excited anymore. Also, it seems to me that once you lose your ecitement to raid. It never really comes back. I saw all my friend fall out of raiding one by one and could never understand why they didn't like it anymore till it happened to me.
So to the OP I feel you are just way off with the insults and suck because when the day comes you do want to raid you will then understand why others do not see it a fun activity. I do hope that GW2 does choose to put raiding into their game because I would love for it to be there as an optional activity. Not as a gear grind all the other games have done to raiding.
I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Actually there are some very good reasons why they would get both angry and defensive:
- Related feelings to the direct attacks on their esteem and self-worth they receive from "being a hardcore raider"
- Fear that ANet's model will prove widely sucessful, causing MMO Developers to finally question whether spending so much time, effort, and resources on Gear Treadmill Raiding is worthwhile or even beneficial to the game at all. Blizzard's own statistics show just how incredibly small a percentage of their playerbase actually complete the raid tiers in their game. Part of the reason SWTOR was considered a failure was the lack or shortage of this developer-and-resource-intensive content that by its very nature is designed with "planned obsolescence" - if you were an MMO Developer and you now knew you could design a game without such content and succeed, wouldn't you?
Lets see what is the definition of raiding : A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster.
If we go with this definition of raiding, then YES guild wars 2 does HAVE raiding. These raids are usually open world but you can still make teams to do these certain dynamic chains
See this event chain? In the second video you go into a "mini dungeon". I tried doing this event with a random group of people and the first part was quite easy. However when we actually went inside the "mini dungeon" it became a lot tougher and I knew right away that I needed a coordinated group of players to succeed in there. Just take a look at the second part of the run... you need teamwork and good communication to succeed.
There are many boss fights at the end of a DE chain that are similar to this, so GW2 definately has raiding. Just not all instanced that you're so used to.
Originally posted by lizardbones I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
"Position of power?"
What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness
No, it actually makes perfect sense. Being a vocal minority that demands 95%+ of non-expansion content developement is a "position of power". Catering to the 5% that are power players has largely been responsible for the lack of innovation seen in the genre since WoW launched.
It's been much easier for many developers to just skimp on PvE content and worldspace, in favor of a focus on providing an end game raiding treadmill. This only seemed reasonable because of the attitude among the vocal power-playing minority that "PvE is nothing but the boring stuff" that you need to do before you reach "end game".
This^
Exactly, and now that the majority is speaking up and making a stand against the minority, suddenly we're seeing all kinds of whining on the forums about why the games are changing because i can tell you, all of the games will be changing soon. It's only a matter of time, the total population of gamers isn't growing fast and mmo gamers are a population that moves alot and when large numbers move they affect games that need subs. We'll see what happens next tho just like I and many others predicted what happened to SWTOR, I and many others are now predicting the whole face of mmo gaming will finally be moving forward instead of being stuck in 2004 and despite the whining and complaining it IS partially due to the work on GW2 and at Arenanet to bring to light the issues of mmo genre and to help bring about change through the players who have experienced their gameplay.
Just as the games are almost all going F2P, eventually every single one will be there that has a sub, the games will be updating to improve upon their gameplay.
Lets see what is the definition of raiding : A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster.
If we go with this definition of raiding, then YES guild wars 2 does HAVE raiding. These raids are usually open world but you can still make teams to do these certain dynamic chains
See this event chain? In the second video you go into a "mini dungeon". I tried doing this event with a random group of people and the first part was quite easy. However when we actually went inside the "mini dungeon" it became a lot tougher and I knew right away that I needed a coordinated group of players to succeed in there. Just take a look at the second part of the run... you need teamwork and good communication to succeed.
There are many boss fights at the end of a DE chain that are similar to this, so GW2 definately has raiding. Just not all instanced that you're so used to.
I'm okay with that; I'm just tired of traditional raiding in instances and where you need rigid schedules and all that crud.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.
Comments
This doesn't really make sense, since the alternative to "slogging through the same boss fights" is "slogging through the same solo / group trash fights" which generally tend to be a lot less interesting. MMOs are built on repetition... doing very similar fights over and over and over and over again. By having more or different people involved in the encounter, you change the encounter, so it becomes less repetitive. But at the end of the day.. I'm thinking that people that don't like repetition simply don't play MMOs, since all MMOs are repetitive by design.
Also, for the record, i do consider what GW2 has to be raids. I just don't consider them well-designed or good for organized cooperative play, but they're there and they're raids.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
You can choose to ... choose different mobs/camps to hunt at can you not so it's not the same ones all the time? Move around some? Can't do that with Raids but you can do that out hunting as a group... assuming the MMO you play has a big enough world to allow for this (I play LotRO still some and that ingame world is more than big enough to add a ton of variety to a group outing).
Use your imagination and go somewhere else for a change ingame. Explore that virtual world and enjoy it. The Devs will appreciate that people actually see and use the areas they worked so hard to make.
You can change up the Players yes, or you can change up the Itinerary.
You forgot about some players that have raided hard and are bored of that shit.
Usually partys lacks Tanks (mostly) or healers.... sick of waiting for them..or cancelling Raids for that.
Tired of forcing players to play certain roll they dislike to play to fill roster for Raids.
Tired of WIPES...real hardcore time sinks. SICK of
After beeing a social,active,semi skilled in PVE,hardcore player......i´m just TIRED of it.
You can play very FUN videogames (and now even a MMO!!!) that changes that for good! or just for a break..your choice.
(sorry for the smelling word)
I agree with some of what you wrote. I think people who like raiding are a certain personality type. I mean that literally, like ESTJ, for example, from the Myers-Briggs Type indicator. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
It's just like certain personality types should be police officers, EMTs, office managers, librarians, big wave surfers, etc. So raiding is "fun" for you. It's not for me. I like exploration and pvp. Raiding feels like work. You can't say someone is "lazy" because they don't like to play a game the way you do. But there are people who are lazy and want to be carried, so I'm not totally discrediting what you said.
MMORPGs should accomodate all personality types (as long as they are not lazy and expect to be given everything easily ). ;-)
Those of us don't like raiding shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens. We should have alternatives for the kind of gaming we like to do. For example, I want the best gear to be available for people who like "grinding" pvp instead of raids -- on an equal footing with raid gear.
EDIT: And I did spend about 6 months raiding in a very good raiding guild in WoW. That 's where I get my opinion from about the personality types. I did it and it was interesting for a while. Now, I feel like I've already played that type of game enough and I want to move on to other things. I'm not interested in repeating gear grinding games. Some people like that and it's fine, of course, but I want to play other types of games and I don't want that model to infect every single mmorpg that comes out. So that's why a lot of people are happy that there is no raiding in GW2 (for once).
It's just like certain personality types should be police officers, EMTs, office managers, librarians, big wave surfers, etc. So raiding is "fun" for you. It's not for me. I like exploration and pvp. Raiding feels like work. You can't say someone is "lazy" because they don't like to play a game the way you do. But there are people who are lazy and want to be carried, so I'm not totally discrediting what you said.
MMORPGs should accomodate all personality types (as long as they are not lazy and expect to be given everything easily ). ;-)
Those of us don't like raiding shouldn't be treated as 2nd class citizens. We should have alternatives for the kind of gaming we like to do. For example, I want the best gear to be available for people who like "grinding" pvp instead of raids -- on an equal footing with raid gear.
I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like that there's no raiding because I've done a lot of raiding and it's not fun to me now.
After a while it feels more like a chore than fun having to schedule things/worry bout people not showing up and all that. It's even worse when you feel like there's nothing to do but wait for some lockout time/respawn on the raid to be up so you can do it again.
Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.
Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.
And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.
I feel like this thread is as redundant as me making thread called "End Game haters are coming out of the woodwork"
Hey look, I can make a thread about an opinionated fact as well, probly throu some mud around and watch the sparks fly as I sit back, /popcorn, and twiddling my fingers evilly going "yes... yes... feed my hunger... bring out the trolls... yes...."
Yes.
And it's been time for a change for quite a while.
I say it's about time. I'm tired of every game under the sun catering to a vocal minority of their playerbase, while the rest of us are left with scraps.
I actually hope that ArenaNet never implements instanced raids but rather adds more open world raid-like encounters which are accessible by all players of appropriate level. Screw the exclusivity nonsense championed in other games.
Really? Your answer to people who don't care for raiding is that they either just can't raid due to time constraints or they have some sort of character, competency or mental deficiency?
I could just as easily say that Raiders are just sheeple who go along with the herd, never even comprehending that they have just become willing rats in a maze that doesn't actually go any where, trotting along on a virtual treadmill, persuing a carrot they will never, ever catch up to. That may be true for some raiders, but it would be idiotic to make it a generalization to be applied to all, or even the majority of Raiders.
You know, it is possible for people to have different opinions, likes or preferences than you, with out there being any correlations at all to be made between intellect, competency or character for people on one side or another of an issue.
I know people who raid, but will admit they don't really enjoy it beyond the fact that they are able to help friends and guildmates in something that they enjoy. I also know that there are many more people who extend their MMO play time via alts than via end game raiding.
I still remember waiting in line for a midnight opening for The Burning Crusade at the local gamestop. I talked to a number of people and I was surprised how few of the people waiting to get the game the minute it released didn't even have a single character at the level cap.
End game raids have always been a substitute for "real" content and many devs have admitted as much, sometimes apologetically. It just hasn't been practical to provide enough world content to keep people playing for more than a month or two. Raids and the end game treadmill were an economical way to keep people who have powered through world content playing.
There will be dungeon content for people at the level cap in GW2. There will also be world content best suited for large groups of players. With level scaling, guild PvE events can actually take place in the game world and include members of a wide range of character levels. Level 80 world content, like the entire zone of Orr, will also be very well suited for those who like a challenge once they reach the level cap.
There just won't be an endless gear grind treadmill and ongoing content expansion will include content for all level ranges, rather than being devoted to the fanatical few who consume the end game raid content that dominates most MMOs today.
There are plenty of end game raid MMOs and for people who care only about end game raiding. GW2 offers a different approach and I think even many raiders who play the game will realize by the time they reach level 80 that they won't miss the absence of an end game raiding treadmill. Some may never go back to that mode of play ever again.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
"Position of power?"
What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness
Actually its those like you coming out of the woodwork.. those trying to say why GW2 should have raiding.. oh and you forgot to add "I am tired of raiding for years like a job on an endless cycle of gear looking worse and worse and fights getting redundant" I hardcore raided most of WoW's existance.. from the first Magmadar kill on Tichondrius to Nef reincarnate. So tired of the BS and reasons there is raiding at all. It just isnt needed to have fun and Anet has proven that.
What type of gameplay has consistently dominated the type of content we receive? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay has caused every other type of gameplay to be designed to funnel you to Raiding? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay causes so much grief on various forums, causing for cries from the minority to make it impossibly exclusive to their minority alone? Raiding.
What kind of gameplay enforces rigid scheduling and extreme repetition in order to get to the next tier? Raiding.
Crafting is rendered useless by raiding because only the best materials come from raids, and even the stuff you make from crafting is useless once you get the best gear out of that raid. PVP is an afterthought at best, with the occasional battleground or arena to make it look like they give a damn. Leveling is braindead trivial because endgame is the only part that matters in the grand scheme of things. Making alts is generally pointless since you will be far behind if you don't raid.
TL;DR: Traditional raiding has rendered everything that isn't raiding almost pointless to do in the long term.
Even though there have been changes to make it more accessible, it's still a pretty exclusive gameplay style, and one that I would prefer not be included in GW2. Besides, raids are just bigger dungeons in the long term, just more loot, more crap to dodge, and more screaming at you for making an error.
No, it actually makes perfect sense. Being a vocal minority that demands 95%+ of non-expansion content developement is a "position of power". Catering to the 5% that are power players has largely been responsible for the lack of innovation seen in the genre since WoW launched.
It's been much easier for many developers to just skimp on PvE content and worldspace, in favor of a focus on providing an end game raiding treadmill. This only seemed reasonable because of the attitude among the vocal power-playing minority that "PvE is nothing but the boring stuff" that you need to do before you reach "end game".
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Back in EQ glory days I was in a guild. Once we figured out about the planes we were off on HIGH ADVENTURE!!! We went into these places not caring much about the loot but for the experience. Since you could lose levels you had to be really careful. One person doing the wrong thing could get the whole raid killed and you could lose a whole week of exp in one death. The stakes were so high then. We went into these places and came out almost always poorer and a few weeks exp gone. I went to the Plane of Fear with my guild like 4 times and then I got a drop that wasn't even for my class. I got lucky on a roll. I then traded that item for something I could use and I was in love with raiding. I think though at the time it was more about the adventure and not the loot.
Then came WoW. Initially there was only the Molten Core and it took me like 2 trips to it to realize that raiding was no longer for me. I did the math and it just didn't add up. I looked at all the people in my guild and how much loot dropped and since WoW decided to go with the bind on pick up route. I realized I would have to come here some many times that it just wasn't worth it. Raids took us about 4-6 hours to do and the guild was going there once a week. For another stupid ass reason that was all you were allowed to go there per week. We would have been living in that place if they would have let us. The geedy SOB's though knew this and only allowed you one trip per week. Needing 35-40 people at the time all maxxed level and geared to handle the plae was to me just beyond stupid. So it was then I turned my back on raiding. It was never because of laziness it wasn't because I was antisocial. It was just plain no fun to me.
As WoW evolved the lessened some of the constraints on the raid dungeons but even then I couldn't go back because I saw it for what it was. Blizzards time sink to keep people in the game for loot. This was a far cry from what playing a MMO should played for. Its sad when the guild meeting consisted of have to meet on vent and remembering the instuctions of how to beat boss X. My last raid experience in WoW was a 25 man in Zul Grub. I was excited because it had been a while since I went on a raid. Most of my time in WoW was spent making High Warlord in pvp. We go in and make it to the 1st boss and we failed over and over. After about 2 hours one on vent started sharing the instuctions which he looked up on how to beat this boss. 2 hours later we still couldn't do it. That whne it hit me. this isn't adventure this is just plain stupid. Later we figured out how to beat the boss and the others but, I just couldnt get excited anymore. Also, it seems to me that once you lose your ecitement to raid. It never really comes back. I saw all my friend fall out of raiding one by one and could never understand why they didn't like it anymore till it happened to me.
So to the OP I feel you are just way off with the insults and suck because when the day comes you do want to raid you will then understand why others do not see it a fun activity. I do hope that GW2 does choose to put raiding into their game because I would love for it to be there as an optional activity. Not as a gear grind all the other games have done to raiding.
Actually there are some very good reasons why they would get both angry and defensive:
- Cognitive Dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) concerning the painful, repetitive, and ultimately useless grind of the Traditional Raiding Treadmill
- Related feelings to the direct attacks on their esteem and self-worth they receive from "being a hardcore raider"
- Fear that ANet's model will prove widely sucessful, causing MMO Developers to finally question whether spending so much time, effort, and resources on Gear Treadmill Raiding is worthwhile or even beneficial to the game at all. Blizzard's own statistics show just how incredibly small a percentage of their playerbase actually complete the raid tiers in their game. Part of the reason SWTOR was considered a failure was the lack or shortage of this developer-and-resource-intensive content that by its very nature is designed with "planned obsolescence" - if you were an MMO Developer and you now knew you could design a game without such content and succeed, wouldn't you?
People need to stop saying there is no raiding...
Lets see what is the definition of raiding : A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster.
If we go with this definition of raiding, then YES guild wars 2 does HAVE raiding. These raids are usually open world but you can still make teams to do these certain dynamic chains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU
See this event chain? In the second video you go into a "mini dungeon". I tried doing this event with a random group of people and the first part was quite easy. However when we actually went inside the "mini dungeon" it became a lot tougher and I knew right away that I needed a coordinated group of players to succeed in there. Just take a look at the second part of the run... you need teamwork and good communication to succeed.
There are many boss fights at the end of a DE chain that are similar to this, so GW2 definately has raiding. Just not all instanced that you're so used to.
This^
Exactly, and now that the majority is speaking up and making a stand against the minority, suddenly we're seeing all kinds of whining on the forums about why the games are changing because i can tell you, all of the games will be changing soon. It's only a matter of time, the total population of gamers isn't growing fast and mmo gamers are a population that moves alot and when large numbers move they affect games that need subs. We'll see what happens next tho just like I and many others predicted what happened to SWTOR, I and many others are now predicting the whole face of mmo gaming will finally be moving forward instead of being stuck in 2004 and despite the whining and complaining it IS partially due to the work on GW2 and at Arenanet to bring to light the issues of mmo genre and to help bring about change through the players who have experienced their gameplay.
Just as the games are almost all going F2P, eventually every single one will be there that has a sub, the games will be updating to improve upon their gameplay.
I'm okay with that; I'm just tired of traditional raiding in instances and where you need rigid schedules and all that crud.
Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.
I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.
Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~
Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.
Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?
I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.