Let's see if I understand the PKer talking points here...
1) "Carebears"(tm) are are whinners that can't take losing.
2) "Carebears"(tm) are casual gamers that have no business playing MMORPGs because they aren't willing to invest large amounts of time in them.
3) PKers are better than "carebears"(tm) because they are tough enough to take a loss without whinning dedicated enough to invest the time into staying competative.
<sigh> oh the incredible hubris and macho insecurity on display here
Let's go over these one by one, shall we?
1) PKers have lost the contest of public opinion and spend more time whinning about it than a Jerry Springer guest reunion episode.
2) Being "elite" on a video game doesn't mean anything. To make games that only cater to the "elite" is a business plan for failure. It takes more than setting up velvet ropes around your hobby to make one "elite"
3) I think I've pretty much answered this point in my replies to the last two. If you're whole sense of self worth revolves around remaining "competative", then you have some self esteem issues you need to work out.
BTW, PKers are not PvPers. I am a PvPer and I reserve PvP for games that require skill on the part of the players involved. PvP in an MMORPG is about bigger numbers. level + equipment * number of allies > level + equipment * number of opponents = victory. I find America's Army, Rome: Total War, Magic: The Gathering, Chess, Tennis, Football, Basketball, etc, to be compelling only when either side has the ability to win. An even match is more entertaining than a one sided ass kicking any day. But that's just my opinion.
As per the norm people who claim they aren't the whiny casual players that are the scourge of every mmo are here to bash on pvp and all the pro-pvpers.
The reason I say most whiners are casual players is actually quite logical, they are usually casual players because as I said above they're the ones who have issues with staying competitive with the rest of the player base who, in their mind, is nothing but "12 year olds who play 24/7". This, of course, is untrue and a sweeping generalization but that doesn't stop them from assuming this anyways. Because they work and have umpteen other obligations they feel that anyone who has more free time to play and level in the game is automatically immature and has to be young / sexless. If this isn't compensation for insecurity then I don't know what is.
This often branches off into hatred for the pvp crowd, more often than not because said casual players have characters who are considerably lower level than most of the other players. This player becomes resentful of the other players who all fight and compete with one another because this player is far too weak to comepete against them. This is, of course, entirely due to the fact that this player has nearly no time to dedicate to the game to begin with, in a game where time is an absolute pre-requisite to having any fun in pvp. So, because said player cannot compete or does not wish to even try against other players who have put in their time (and most often deserve the stats/gear they have) they usually make the blanket statement that all PvP or PKers are children because theres no other possible way they could have the time to level. (though better leveling spots / equipment and or help from a strong guild due to PvP ties never seems to dawn on them).
Now as for the people calling open PvP mindless killing, yea sure that's what it is when you stay at the n00bie outpost and stand around waving your privates in the air in glee. It's always been that way, people who are seeking easy cash and or to grief n00bies will stalk n00b areas and/or towns. If you have ever played on DT on Asheron's Call for example you would know this is a fact of the server, that if you are in a town and you see a red dot (enemy player) you are killed almost by default. Is this mindless? I'd say it isn't since most guilds have rules on who you can and cant pk, also despite what some like to dispute pvp takes skill most of the time.
Now the real fun part of open pvp as opposed to this "I bite my thumb at thee sir!" "for sooth, we shall duel sir!" bs, is that you can have HUGE wars with hundreds of participants that ends in nothing short of epic battles for the most part. Of course, you'd never get this if you never played on those "stupid kiddie open pvp" servers, you'd never know how fun it is to raid with 200 people and fight vitually 1 entire guild vs another over a lifestone (AC:DT players from Blood may remember this on the raids on Khao at Danby's Outpost). You would never understand how fun it can be to have "Anti" guilds defend towns against pks and welcome n00b characters to hunt and sell in peace in the surrounding area, forming player-made town guards. (Antis by the way are players who view RPK "aka. random player killing" as wrong and as such kill these people).
Antis vs RPKs is an entire aspect of open pvp servers that outside players would never understand, the concept of which is essentially good vs evil, pick a side and go to war. Of course, trivial things such as guild rules and fights could NEVER take place in open pvp games, since they're all full of 12 year old kiddies
If you doubt that any of what I have said above is true, then you've aparently never experienced what true open pvp can be, nor have you ever played a great MMO, in my opinion, an MMO like AC was <2001 and UO before trammel. Of course, don't believe anything I say, because I'm a PKer and by default I'm a 12 year old kiddie who over compensates for obvious mental retardation in real life, not to mention I dedicate 30 hours a day to gaming, I know... I know... I hax0red the extra hours in there, thats how 1337 I am.
Lmao at the sheer ignorance of the pseudo-intellectuals on this forum.
There are a few games that are coming out that is open pvp, such as DnL and Darkfall are the few i know of. Including Lineage 2 which is a siege based pvp, same with DnL and darkfall. Most pvp are coming out with a point, like sieging.
My question would it be acceptable for games such as these to have a simple feature in them, like a check box to turn on or off pvp? There are some people out there who would like to come on the game to have some fun by killing monsters or doing quests besides sieging. Its those casual players who like to come on for a few hours and kill a few monsters maybe solo or join a small group and not worried about being gank by a griefer.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Zen, I don't "doubt" that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I KNOW that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I played AC Darktide. I played UO pre-trammel. They all boiled down to who had the better stats, better equipment, and bigger team. In something like, oh say.... Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, the better player wins. The better player in that game isn't always the guy that spent the most time with the game. The better player was, most of the time, the player with more talent for the game. A game of skill usually rewards the gamer with the most talent for that game. MMORPGs don't recognize talent, only time invested in the game.
You haven't the skill to play FPS, RTS, turn-based strategy, fighting, racing, or sports games, so you farm a MMORPG for a few days straight and then go PK and call yourself "uber". Yeah, you're real "elite". I said it before and I'll say it again: PKers are NOT PvPers!!
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Zen, I don't "doubt" that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I KNOW that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I played AC Darktide. I played UO pre-trammel. They all boiled down to who had the better stats, better equipment, and bigger team. In something like, oh say.... Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, the better player wins. The better player in that game isn't always the guy that spent the most time with the game. The better player was, most of the time, the player with more talent for the game. A game of skill usually rewards the gamer with the most talent for that game. MMORPGs don't recognize talent, only time invested in the game. You haven't the skill to play FPS, RTS, turn-based strategy, fighting, racing, or sports games, so you farm a MMORPG for a few days straight and then go PK and call yourself "uber". Yeah, you're real "elite". I said it before and I'll say it again: PKers are NOT PvPers!!
1) Your baseless and uneducated assumptions that I don't play any other type of games other than MMOs makes you look like the ignorant jackass you are. I, in fact, played and have won every local tournament for WC3 and SC over the past few years and have "farmed" a few cases and other such goodies for doing so. I also have played in a cal-m team for CS for a 3 year period, in fact you can check their roster on cal right now and i'm most likely still on their sub roster, Cal-M east, CPKG [~]
2) Who did you play on DT, if you were worth any grain of salt on the server i'll know you're name not to mention I can ask any number of people who are extremely well known on the server who you are. NOW in the end-game it has a lot to do with templates now that people are maxed and there are tinked wands and mages with melee D, but i've seen good players like Anti Parazi take down people on a lvl 100 mage quite easily. So no, you're 100% wrong, the game does, very much rely on your skill, anyone whos played it knows this, that is, anyone whos played it and actually left the n00bies outpost and didnt only play DT when their primary o.O server was down. The fact that you just say "I played both those games and they take NO skills" proves that you have literally nothing to back up your generalized bs.
3) I never once said I was uber or elite, unless your referring to me saying I hax0red an extra 6 hours into every day to level, in which case I was being quite obviously sarcastic, but I wouldn't expect you to understand humor on an ever sophomoric level.
4) You have no idea what pvp is, and argueing that it is not player versus player such as pking each other is an exercise in futility. The debate here is not what pvp is, it's wether or not it's the lack therof that makes games carebear. I also believe that any MMO player who is not an ignorant slack-jawed troglodyte such as yourself can and will attest that pking and fightting other players = player vs player. Then again most children can also comprehend this simple logic...
5) Yeah.... ok, you go pvp yourself some bass in bass master 64 there jackass, call me when the fish fight back k.
....I also believe that any MMO player who is not an ignorant slack-jawed troglodyte such as yourself can and will attest that pking and fightting other players = player vs player. Then again most children can also comprehend this simple logic...
Yes, FIGHTING is the key word here. A lvl 50 on a lvl1 is hardly FIGHTING now, is it.
Actually, that's exactly what it is, what the hell do levels or fairness have to do with the fact that when two players fight they are playing vs each other.
I get it that all you kids think if you dont have the exact same levels and gear than it's not fair and as such isn't "real" pvp. Sorry, but you're wrong, I know that often its because you're on the short end of the stick with the disadvantage and you lose and its just easier for you to cope by saying "its not REAL pvp cause we weren't dueling!"
Wrong, dueling is a form of PvP, just as guild vs guild or 1 v 1 player combat is, irregardless of numbers/equipment or levels.
Sorry it took so long to reply, but I had to work. Now then....
Zen Wrote:
In order to live on a open pvp server, your guild has to control good leveling spots, because levels mean everything in MMOs
But then you go on to say.....
i've seen good players like Anti Parazi take down people on a lvl 100 mage quite easily. So no, you're 100% wrong, the game does, very much rely on your skill
Notice how you neglect to tell us the level of the person stomping the lvl 100 mage's ass. Is that the smell of a self contradiction Zen? I think it is. Now if it's really a game of skill, you'll have no problem getting video footage of a BRAND NEW, OUT OF THE BOX character that's naked and armed only with a stick beating the hell out of a MAXED OUT, FULLY EQUIPED character. After all, if it's a game of skill then the stats and equipment don't matter, right? Oh, and no cheating on the video. The beginning lvl character cannot just attack an immobile maxed character until it falls down. I want to see a real fight.
WC3 and Starcraft you say? Well, I can't really say a whole lot about Starcraft since it's been around for a long time and has some serious strategy credit. I'd be more impressed if you were playing Rise of Nations or Age of Mythology, but Starcraft is a good "beer & pretzels" game. Counter-Strike will always have a special place in my heart, but it's no Ghost Recon. And I can only assume that you only play on servers with Punkbuster? I'd HATE to think that you were using spiked models or something. Warcraft 3? Are you kidding me? I remember playing the demo and thinking about buying it for the online angle. And then I learned that the hero you controlled gained levels and skills keeping them between online games. At the point, it was a single player game only. I don't know how you run your local tournaments, but having one Uber unit that's been feeding on bots during the off-season doesn't sound very "strategic" to me.
As for "who I was" on Darktide.... I haven't played AC in almost 5... 6 years? I'm thinking it came out in '98 and I picked it up on the same month it came out. I ran one character on the normal servers and one character on Darktide. My normal character was a straight up fighter because I thought it would be simpler to learn. Later when I tried out Darktide I switched to a Mage character and learned just how unbalanced the character classes really were. Long story short, I played the game for about 20 hours a week for one month. Then I came across this online only shooter called Starsiege: Tribes and I suddenly lost all intrest in RPGS for several years. Seriously, if you can find one person that remembers "Scrye", I would be fuckin' amazed.
And this leads me to my final point. Tournaments? "Top ranking" clans? Who am I? There's this undertone of "look at me I'm special!!" written all over your posts. Obviously, gaming isn't giving you any sense of self worth. If you want to feel good about yourself, go do something that's meaningful. Write a book. Build a house. Learn a foriegn language. Sculpt the worlds largest still life out of hardened oatmeal. Make a mark on the world that will last. Victory comes and goes. I've been doing this online competition thing for a long, long time now. I couldn't tell you shit about the people I played. Other than the people I know in real life and play with, I can't tell you names, ranks, clans, any of that shit. When I play, I only care about that one game. There were no games before, and there are no games after in my mind. There's just me, and the goal. I either win or lose and either way, it doesn't matter. Winning is nice, losing is more valuable. If you don't understand that last line, then you are not a PvPer of any stripe. The fact that you're pushing PvP on a ROLE PLAYING GAME just goes to show how little you understand of what and RPG is, and what competition is all about.
1) Aparently you've completely misunderstood what I was saying with my little pvp scenario, which doesn't really surprise me, so i'll clarify for you. Anti Parazi (who is a VERY skilled player on AC) was playing the lvl 100 mage and despite having a lower level character, much poorer equipment and lower stats/skills all around i've seen him beat chars that are over 175+ which at the time was HUGE. ANYBODY who knows what they're talking about when it comes to pvp on Asheron's Call can attest that as long as you have the skill, and your character is atleast at a self sufficient level (most people consider this 100+ at minimum at this stage of the game) you can kill anybody.
Of course though, you're not playing it that way, because you can't argue your point reasonably you take everything to the extreme and refuse to argue your point with logic. Of course a lvl 1 character cant beat a maxed out character, if that were the case what the fuck would be the point of leveling a character ever on pvp servers? What would be the point of playing at all, all you would ever do would be pointless since any idiot could roll up a new character and kill you, it would be nothing but mindless slaughtering at the n00b outposts all day long. You don't see that though do you, do you possess absolutely no logic at all, or do you have some kind of documented learning disability? You mean to say that you can justifiably testify that striving to improves ones character in the game so that you can earn new skills and better means to defeat your opponent eliminates you from being a PVPer and automatically makes you something else? You're telling me, that any game based on skill has NO OTHER FACTORS involved, such as experience or physique or mental capacity. All of those things are attributes of the player of the game, just as the levels and skills of a players character in a MMO are the attributes of the player's persona. Skill does not equate a sterile 100% even environment, if such was the case there would be no competition, it would always end in a draw. For there to even be a "contest" one player has to surpass the other in some aspects to achieve victory.
2) You insinuation that i'm using "spiked models" in a "professional" cyber league is laughable at best and proves you have nothing left to your arguement other than straight up, ungrounded personal attacks. If you weren't completely ignorant you would know that the Cyberathelete Amateur League has it's own team of admins who investigate any claims of hacking in ANY match and both teams must supply demos on demand as well as begin-game screenshots to prove they're not altering the game in any way, failure to comply usually results in expulsion from any further league events and pretty much tossing your clans reputation down the drain. Want to read up more on CAL? http://www.caleague.com/
3) So you're personal opinion of the strategy games I play now comes into play how? You made a blanked statement assuming I don't play anything else and I proved you wrong. Now you somehow think that saying "wow those games are gay guys11! lolol" makes your point valid? You made an ignorant statement with no proof under the assumption that i'm a gold farming AZN super player in MMOs and that it all I play, which, as i've shown is quite the opposite. Regardless of your PERSONAL OPINION on games, it has absolutely no baring whatso ever on the arguement. I couldn't care less if you think Rise of Nations is the second coming of christ, really.
4) Havn't played AC in 6 years huh..... so you were what.. a pre-alpha tester then? I'm guessing you're compeltely full of shit here, but if you were, then which beta world was the pk server It was actually released late 99 for a quick history lesson.
5) I've never ONCE stated I was uber, leet or any rediculous other assumption you've chosen to draw to me. You questioned wether or not I played any other games and accused me of being a "hardcore MMO leet kid" when in fact I'd say I'm much more easily labeled as a hardcore CS league player. To backup these claims I gave you FACTUAL evidence (which is the only reason I mentioned my team in Cal-M east, because you can actually look it up and see my username there for proof, instead of tossing out hollow claims). You were the one who jumped to this "leet kiddie" bullshit and questioned my reasoning for backing up pvp in all respects, wether it be open or not. Maybe you consider it fun to beat the shit out of AI in video games but if I had to endure one more hour of the single player borefest that most games bring to the table I think i'd be more apt to just give this shit up. Nothing is fun about playing against computers and beating AI, there is no challenge, especially in any MMO, it's just merely a matter of time vs odds, the more time you have to level your characters the better the odds you have of winning against the AI until those odds are nearly 100% in your favor, woo fun.
6) Lastly, as for this attitude that "PVP is only fun when it's 100% even" bs, I have no idea how to even begin to address that. Do you have ANY idea how unfun pvp is when everyone does the same damage and everyone uses the same weapons? Do you know what it becomes then, a even bigger bastardization of player vs player combat where now it merely comes down to pure numbers, which ever team can zerg the other team the fastest. Character progression and equipment variants is what makes pvp fun, it adds foreign elements that spice things up. I can think of a number of times I went to kill someone 10 levels lower than me who kicked the shit out of me because they had a maxed out weapon that their main character had tinked up for them. Do I find that unfair and think its not real competition because someone who has more time to play than me has an advantage? No.... that's life, there is always people with advantages, and the people who have the extra time and spend so progressing their characters in the game DESERVE to have those advantages, that's fair.
Now, i'm quite finished with this lackluster discussion, you can have your biased oppinions all you like and you can feel free to slap whatever unfounded stereotype on me that you wish if it makes you feel any better. But it doesn't change the fact that PvP would be entirely boring and unfun if it was always 100% equal, there would be no point to it at all and nobody would bother doing it, period. The people that argue otherwise are the true reason pvp in most modern games have died, because they whine and complain to make things 100% balanced and even until pvp becomes a sterilized mathematical equation that lacks any kind of excitement or thrill, and many people who enjoy true pvp hates these types of players for good reason. You're the reason why Devs make pvp such shit and you ruin the fun of it because you are too sensitive about not being able to compete without investing your fair share of time into it like everyone else who plays.
I have rarely read so many generalizations in one single thread.
One common misconception is that PvP is instantly thought as combat and fight. Actually there are a lot of Forms of PvP, which enhance gameplay (Financial PvP, Production PvP, Raw Material Gathering PvP, etc.).
And I know quite a lot of people who I would call hardcore gamer (for the time and decication they put into playing games), who are *not* into PvP.
A bit of tolerance from PvE and PvP type of players for the "other side"would go a long way to avoid such flame fests. For example, in EVE there are also PvPlers complaining about PvElers and vice versa, yet the game also has a lot of players who dont' mind the "others", since EVE tries to cate to both type of player. In EVE, quite a lot of PvPlers (Most I know and have heard of) have one or more "carebear" alt(s) with which they make money to fund their PvP activity or just have casual fun with PvE.
Ofc, a PvEler that logs into a PvP oriented game and get ganked after the screen barely loads, will have a certain opinion of what he think PvP is. So all in all PvPlers need a better "marketing" to make people understand why they like their game and mabye try to win people over. If not, then they have accept the fact that games wiht 100% free combat PvP will stay rare.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Your post is pretty much on the mark, the only thing I'd add to it is that, as I said in my original post, the people who play on the pvp server, die within the first few minutes and then decide they never want to play it again because its "stupid and childish" are the type of people that pvpers on those servers dont want around.
If you give up that easily, that means you expected it to be easy to begin with and playing on ANY pvp server should not be easy, it's the next step up from PvE and as such it's supposed to be harder. The reason why pvpers don't want the players who expect things to be easy to play is that they are the types of players who will consistantly ask for help to do anything, whine and complain endlessly when they die and in general be a burden on the rest of the group.
Now, you can call that a generalization if you'd like, but i've experienced this same thing hundreds of times over the past 5 years of playing AC and I can say that it's almost always the case with the "outpost warriors" (basically, the people who level their characters up to lvl 10 and stay in the n00bie area forever so they can fight only noobies). You have to be in the right frame of mind to play on a open pvp server, you have to accept the fact that you will die, usually pointlessly to people who are higher level with better equipment and stats who have more time to play than you do.
The challenging part is to try and work your way up and be able to compete with these people, that's what makes it fun. It's always a challenge on open pvp servers. I remember leveling on Morningthaw, which is the server I now play on because Darktide is pretty much done, there is very little excitement when you level, it's just another number gone by. Back when I played DT full time it was like every single thing you accomplished was progress and you know that every level you went up, you were that much closer to reaching your goal of being able to compete and kill the big guys. That's what makes pvp fun, the competition.
Originally posted by seabass2003 The reason there are very few true pvp games is because of the players themselves ruin the game. Here is my example pf why. Player 1 hurries to level up and get to level 50. Player 2 just got his copy of the game 3 months after Player 1. Player 1 kills Player 2 who is only level 5. Then Player 1 talks smack and camps Player 2's body so when he comes back he kills him again. Repeat. Player 2 realizes he will never be able to level his character because of jackass Player 1. Player 2 says "Fcuk this game I'm cancelling." Player 2 finds other players to do this to and they also quit the game. Player 1 has singlehandedly destroyed a PvP game. This is why a true open PvP game will probably never work or will have a very low subscribtion rate. I have nothing against PvP, I actually enjoy it because its always more challenging to kill another PC than an AI NPC, but if you don't restrict it somewhat it will be ruined by the people who abuse their abilities.
Simple
PvE and/or PvP servers for the game
PvE servers can have a combat system for PvP just like a PvP server would. Except characters could turn on some kind of "safety" flag where they cannot kill or be killed by other players.
In the PvP server, everything is game from level 1 and on. The moment you first spawn a character, sky is the limit.
The only reason it sucks is cause sometimes this splits communities into halfs. Guys who want PvE and some PvP, guys who want PvP with no PvE sept for leveling or getting better items, guys who want PvE with friends but no PvP.
Originally posted by Zenodice Your post is pretty much on the mark, the only thing I'd add to it is that, as I said in my original post, the people who play on the pvp server, die within the first few minutes and then decide they never want to play it again because its "stupid and childish" are the type of people that pvpers on those servers dont want around. If you give up that easily, that means you expected it to be easy to begin with and playing on ANY pvp server should not be easy, it's the next step up from PvE and as such it's supposed to be harder. The reason why pvpers don't want the players who expect things to be easy to play is that they are the types of players who will consistantly ask for help to do anything, whine and complain endlessly when they die and in general be a burden on the rest of the group. Now, you can call that a generalization if you'd like, but i've experienced this same thing hundreds of times over the past 5 years of playing AC and I can say that it's almost always the case with the "outpost warriors" (basically, the people who level their characters up to lvl 10 and stay in the n00bie area forever so they can fight only noobies). You have to be in the right frame of mind to play on a open pvp server, you have to accept the fact that you will die, usually pointlessly to people who are higher level with better equipment and stats who have more time to play than you do. The challenging part is to try and work your way up and be able to compete with these people, that's what makes it fun. It's always a challenge on open pvp servers. I remember leveling on Morningthaw, which is the server I now play on because Darktide is pretty much done, there is very little excitement when you level, it's just another number gone by. Back when I played DT full time it was like every single thing you accomplished was progress and you know that every level you went up, you were that much closer to reaching your goal of being able to compete and kill the big guys. That's what makes pvp fun, the competition.
I know it is often the way you describe. Very often people misunderstand what PvPlers like in PvP. But I also know other stories.
One good example (out of a few) I'd like to present to you. It happened in EVE. The player was a nice girl, who liked to mine all day - nothing else (btw, that is seen by PvPlers as one of the most dreadful activities in game). She didn't even want to go to the more dangerous zones, where she could make more profit though. She was all frightened (literally) by the prospect that an other player may attack her and destroy her ship. PvP was something with which you could really scare her. One year later she is in one of the biggest Mercenary corps of EVE and only lives to PvP in game. I think she doesn't even really remember when she mined last.
A bit drastic, but things like that happen. Though maybe its a bit more likely in EVE, where "carebears" and pvplers are "forced" to live on one server, who knows.
I also understand your point about the certain mindset that you have to have for PVPing, but where is the harm to explain people things? Give them a hand and help them out occasionally? I think that there are a lot of potential PvPlers out there. Players who would be an enrichment for the "PVP-faction" of their chosen game. There is not only "PvP Mindset" and NON-PvP Mindset" type of gamer out there. There are a lot of people, who would give it a try, though haven't done so for whatever reasons.
I think also one problem is that a lot of the "carebear" people imagine PvPlers as spotted 12year old who w***** off after each kill they make. Sure there may be those types around in some games, but then again I know enough "carebears" who I'd really have liked to shoot on the moon for their inaceptable, imature behaviour.
Well, it all boils down to the need of more acceptance on "both sides".
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Originally posted by seabass2003 The reason there are very few true pvp games is because of the players themselves ruin the game. Here is my example pf why. Player 1 hurries to level up and get to level 50. Player 2 just got his copy of the game 3 months after Player 1. Player 1 kills Player 2 who is only level 5. Then Player 1 talks smack and camps Player 2's body so when he comes back he kills him again. Repeat. Player 2 realizes he will never be able to level his character because of jackass Player 1. Player 2 says "Fcuk this game I'm cancelling." Player 2 finds other players to do this to and they also quit the game. Player 1 has singlehandedly destroyed a PvP game. This is why a true open PvP game will probably never work or will have a very low subscribtion rate. I have nothing against PvP, I actually enjoy it because its always more challenging to kill another PC than an AI NPC, but if you don't restrict it somewhat it will be ruined by the people who abuse their abilities.
The problem is not in trying to prevent this from happening at all, as it removes an element from games that should be key in creating a 'roleplaying' feel - the player villian. Instead, this should be countered with a level based penalty system, such that the lower the victim is below the killer, the more points (exp, stats, anything) is subtracted from the killer, unless both parties agreed to fight, pre-battle, which should have a exp and/or item bonus because of the mutually-agreed upon battle. This would not cancel griefers, but would make them become less and less apt or desireable as a way of play. It would also allow the true 'villin RPers' to kill a player when they feel that it is appropriate for their chracter's personality.
Originally posted by trigger190 Thats how I think RPG-PVP should also be, where 2 low levels can easily kill a high level if they do it right, yet in most rpg's a level 1 player trying to hit a level 50 one, simply can't hit him! There's no realism and IMHO, no fun in that.
In my own idea for my own MMO, I had a similar idea, in that no matter what level the players are, their ability to defeat another player will be based on skill rather than level. This is easy when its just stated so, but as I began to try and figure out how this could be accomplished, I decided that the further away the levels of both sides of the fight becomes, the greater a 'proficiency' modifier for their actions would become, and for the higher player, this modifier reduces his proficiency (take on a level one at level fifty, and you might only do 1/10 of the damage you would do to an entity at your own level, etc.), and the modifier would be beneficial to the lower player's damage, etc. calculations.
Originally posted by Marku - Leveling system(takes too many months to get to a level you can aid your friends in PvP or get to the real "content of the game).
I would like to expound on this, by saying that levels themselves don't ruin the gameplay, but rather the explicit importance of levels. A game that has levels and stats, yet hides those levels and stats in almost every aspect, even to the owner of that character, will have much less emphasis on the "interactive spreadsheet with a face" that most MMO's define as our 'characters'. Simply hiding those values can add much more to the roleplaying and the immersion created by the game; by just saying that this character is "more dexterous" than the other, rather than saying Player A has 45 DEX, while B has 25 DEX, etc.
ANYBODY who knows what they're talking about when it comes to pvp on Asheron's Call can attest that as long as you have the skill, and your character is atleast at a self sufficient level (most people consider this 100+ at minimum at this stage of the game) you can kill anybody.
So why don't they just fix it so that you can't PK until lvl 100? After all, what's the point if you can't even compete until lvl 100? Why even allow anyone to attack someone under lvl 100? Seems like it would be a more sportsmanlike way to do things.....
Of course though, you're not playing it that way, because you can't argue your point reasonably you take everything to the extreme and refuse to argue your point with logic.
To be fair, I should have armed the lvl 1 character with a sling. Realistically, the lvl 1 character could win in that situation. In AC they couldn't. Therefore, AC is more about levels and loot than skill and planning.
Of course a lvl 1 character cant beat a maxed out character, if that were the case what the fuck would be the point of leveling a character ever on pvp servers? What would be the point of playing at all, all you would ever do would be pointless since any idiot could roll up a new character and kill you
You play Counter-Strike. Figure it out. Take Team Fortress Classic as an example. You're stats and equipment are locked by character class. Yet, it's a game of skill so people find plenty of point to it. And don't give me that "TFC is an FPS" shit. You're telling me that MMORPGs require skill and if they did, then levels and equipment WOULDN'T matter. They do. And MMORPGs are counting contests at best.
You're telling me, that any game based on skill has NO OTHER FACTORS involved, such as experience or physique or mental capacity. All of those things are attributes of the player of the game
The key element of this remark is "attributes of the player of the game" i.e., not the character the player is using. In Gran Turismo, you could have the car with the most horsepower and all the upgrades, but if you don't know how to handle that car or are unfamiliar with the track you're racing, you'll lose.
Skill does not equate a sterile 100% even environment, if such was the case there would be no competition, it would always end in a draw. For there to even be a "contest" one player has to surpass the other in some aspects to achieve victory.
This almost doesn't make any sense, but I'll try to translate through context clues. The skills of the players don't make the game 100% even, but the game mechanics do. If both players start out on the same footing with the same advantages and disadvantages, then it's a fair game. This is why Chess is a fair game and combat between a lvl 175+ mage and a lvl 1 squire is not.
You insinuation that i'm using "spiked models" in a "professional" cyber league is laughable at best and proves you have nothing left to your arguement other than straight up, ungrounded personal attacks
Actually I was just trying to get a rise out of you for my own amusment. At that point I had given up all hope of reasoning with you.
Now you somehow think that saying "wow those games are gay guys11! lolol" makes your point valid?
I only trashed on Warcraft 3 and that was because of the RPG developement of the players "hero". I called Starcraft a "beer & pretzels" game because that's what it is. Simple, fun, and all together well done. Some of the best wargames ever made are in this catagory. Axis & Allies, Empire, Diplomacy, these are all "beer & Pretzels" games. Their simplicity is their strength. I generally like more depth in my strategy games so I like titles like Rome: Total War and Rise of Nations. I'm actually glad to see that you play at least two games that require some skill (Starcraft and Counter-Strike).
Havn't played AC in 6 years huh..... so you were what.. a pre-alpha tester then? I'm guessing you're compeltely full of shit here, but if you were, then which beta world was the pk server It was actually released late 99 for a quick history lesson.
No, I wasn't a pre-alpha tester. I bought it shortly after it went gold and '99 sounds about right. The only reason I remember it at all is because I bought Tribes shortly after and I know I got Tribes 2 weeks after it came out. Alot has gone on in my life since then so I probably have something out of sequence.
I've never ONCE stated I was uber, leet or any rediculous other assumption you've chosen to draw to me.
No, you're not elite.... You just think that if you can't devote an (unspecified) amount of time on MMORPGs, you shouldn't play them. You set up velvet ropes and then claim that you don't consider yourself elite? I'm just working with what you give me.
Lastly, as for this attitude that "PVP is only fun when it's 100% even" bs, I have no idea how to even begin to address that
You could start by deconstructing chess and explain how it would be more fun if one player was forced to play with nothing but a king and a pawn. After that you could do the same with checkers, go, backgammon, football, tennis, <insert game here>....
The people that argue otherwise are the true reason pvp in most modern games have died, because they whine and complain to make things 100% balanced and even until pvp becomes a sterilized mathematical equation that lacks any kind of excitement or thrill,
Honestly, it's the "sterilized mathematical equation" that keeps me from taking PvP in RPGs seriously. Why? Because that's exactly what PvP in an RPG is. I could recap the history of RPGs going back to their roots in the Pen and Paper games of the late '70s and early '80s. I could go on to explain that these games were originally co-op storytelling exercises with the DM describing a dramatic situation to the players and then having them figure a way out using only the characters and abilities that they made previous to the game. I could even point out that it's more than a little ignorant to walk into a Role Playing Game and then be pissed because people are role playing or just hanging out and crawling dungeons rather than killing eachother. But you seem bright enough to figure that out yourself.
Comments
Let's see if I understand the PKer talking points here...
1) "Carebears"(tm) are are whinners that can't take losing.
2) "Carebears"(tm) are casual gamers that have no business playing MMORPGs because they aren't willing to invest large amounts of time in them.
3) PKers are better than "carebears"(tm) because they are tough enough to take a loss without whinning dedicated enough to invest the time into staying competative.
<sigh> oh the incredible hubris and macho insecurity on display here
Let's go over these one by one, shall we?
1) PKers have lost the contest of public opinion and spend more time whinning about it than a Jerry Springer guest reunion episode.
2) Being "elite" on a video game doesn't mean anything. To make games that only cater to the "elite" is a business plan for failure. It takes more than setting up velvet ropes around your hobby to make one "elite"
3) I think I've pretty much answered this point in my replies to the last two. If you're whole sense of self worth revolves around remaining "competative", then you have some self esteem issues you need to work out.
BTW, PKers are not PvPers. I am a PvPer and I reserve PvP for games that require skill on the part of the players involved. PvP in an MMORPG is about bigger numbers. level + equipment * number of allies > level + equipment * number of opponents = victory. I find America's Army, Rome: Total War, Magic: The Gathering, Chess, Tennis, Football, Basketball, etc, to be compelling only when either side has the ability to win. An even match is more entertaining than a one sided ass kicking any day. But that's just my opinion.
As per the norm people who claim they aren't the whiny casual players that are the scourge of every mmo are here to bash on pvp and all the pro-pvpers.
The reason I say most whiners are casual players is actually quite logical, they are usually casual players because as I said above they're the ones who have issues with staying competitive with the rest of the player base who, in their mind, is nothing but "12 year olds who play 24/7". This, of course, is untrue and a sweeping generalization but that doesn't stop them from assuming this anyways. Because they work and have umpteen other obligations they feel that anyone who has more free time to play and level in the game is automatically immature and has to be young / sexless. If this isn't compensation for insecurity then I don't know what is.
This often branches off into hatred for the pvp crowd, more often than not because said casual players have characters who are considerably lower level than most of the other players. This player becomes resentful of the other players who all fight and compete with one another because this player is far too weak to comepete against them. This is, of course, entirely due to the fact that this player has nearly no time to dedicate to the game to begin with, in a game where time is an absolute pre-requisite to having any fun in pvp. So, because said player cannot compete or does not wish to even try against other players who have put in their time (and most often deserve the stats/gear they have) they usually make the blanket statement that all PvP or PKers are children because theres no other possible way they could have the time to level. (though better leveling spots / equipment and or help from a strong guild due to PvP ties never seems to dawn on them).
Now as for the people calling open PvP mindless killing, yea sure that's what it is when you stay at the n00bie outpost and stand around waving your privates in the air in glee. It's always been that way, people who are seeking easy cash and or to grief n00bies will stalk n00b areas and/or towns. If you have ever played on DT on Asheron's Call for example you would know this is a fact of the server, that if you are in a town and you see a red dot (enemy player) you are killed almost by default. Is this mindless? I'd say it isn't since most guilds have rules on who you can and cant pk, also despite what some like to dispute pvp takes skill most of the time.
Now the real fun part of open pvp as opposed to this "I bite my thumb at thee sir!" "for sooth, we shall duel sir!" bs, is that you can have HUGE wars with hundreds of participants that ends in nothing short of epic battles for the most part. Of course, you'd never get this if you never played on those "stupid kiddie open pvp" servers, you'd never know how fun it is to raid with 200 people and fight vitually 1 entire guild vs another over a lifestone (AC:DT players from Blood may remember this on the raids on Khao at Danby's Outpost). You would never understand how fun it can be to have "Anti" guilds defend towns against pks and welcome n00b characters to hunt and sell in peace in the surrounding area, forming player-made town guards. (Antis by the way are players who view RPK "aka. random player killing" as wrong and as such kill these people).
Antis vs RPKs is an entire aspect of open pvp servers that outside players would never understand, the concept of which is essentially good vs evil, pick a side and go to war. Of course, trivial things such as guild rules and fights could NEVER take place in open pvp games, since they're all full of 12 year old kiddies
If you doubt that any of what I have said above is true, then you've aparently never experienced what true open pvp can be, nor have you ever played a great MMO, in my opinion, an MMO like AC was <2001 and UO before trammel. Of course, don't believe anything I say, because I'm a PKer and by default I'm a 12 year old kiddie who over compensates for obvious mental retardation in real life, not to mention I dedicate 30 hours a day to gaming, I know... I know... I hax0red the extra hours in there, thats how 1337 I am.
Lmao at the sheer ignorance of the pseudo-intellectuals on this forum.
There are a few games that are coming out that is open pvp, such as DnL and Darkfall are the few i know of. Including Lineage 2 which is a siege based pvp, same with DnL and darkfall. Most pvp are coming out with a point, like sieging.
My question would it be acceptable for games such as these to have a simple feature in them, like a check box to turn on or off pvp? There are some people out there who would like to come on the game to have some fun by killing monsters or doing quests besides sieging. Its those casual players who like to come on for a few hours and kill a few monsters maybe solo or join a small group and not worried about being gank by a griefer.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Zen, I don't "doubt" that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I KNOW that PvP in MMORPGs require no skill. I played AC Darktide. I played UO pre-trammel. They all boiled down to who had the better stats, better equipment, and bigger team. In something like, oh say.... Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, the better player wins. The better player in that game isn't always the guy that spent the most time with the game. The better player was, most of the time, the player with more talent for the game. A game of skill usually rewards the gamer with the most talent for that game. MMORPGs don't recognize talent, only time invested in the game.
You haven't the skill to play FPS, RTS, turn-based strategy, fighting, racing, or sports games, so you farm a MMORPG for a few days straight and then go PK and call yourself "uber". Yeah, you're real "elite". I said it before and I'll say it again: PKers are NOT PvPers!!
1) Your baseless and uneducated assumptions that I don't play any other type of games other than MMOs makes you look like the ignorant jackass you are. I, in fact, played and have won every local tournament for WC3 and SC over the past few years and have "farmed" a few cases and other such goodies for doing so. I also have played in a cal-m team for CS for a 3 year period, in fact you can check their roster on cal right now and i'm most likely still on their sub roster, Cal-M east, CPKG [~]
2) Who did you play on DT, if you were worth any grain of salt on the server i'll know you're name not to mention I can ask any number of people who are extremely well known on the server who you are. NOW in the end-game it has a lot to do with templates now that people are maxed and there are tinked wands and mages with melee D, but i've seen good players like Anti Parazi take down people on a lvl 100 mage quite easily. So no, you're 100% wrong, the game does, very much rely on your skill, anyone whos played it knows this, that is, anyone whos played it and actually left the n00bies outpost and didnt only play DT when their primary o.O server was down. The fact that you just say "I played both those games and they take NO skills" proves that you have literally nothing to back up your generalized bs.
3) I never once said I was uber or elite, unless your referring to me saying I hax0red an extra 6 hours into every day to level, in which case I was being quite obviously sarcastic, but I wouldn't expect you to understand humor on an ever sophomoric level.
4) You have no idea what pvp is, and argueing that it is not player versus player such as pking each other is an exercise in futility. The debate here is not what pvp is, it's wether or not it's the lack therof that makes games carebear. I also believe that any MMO player who is not an ignorant slack-jawed troglodyte such as yourself can and will attest that pking and fightting other players = player vs player. Then again most children can also comprehend this simple logic...
5) Yeah.... ok, you go pvp yourself some bass in bass master 64 there jackass, call me when the fish fight back k.
Yes, FIGHTING is the key word here. A lvl 50 on a lvl1 is hardly FIGHTING now, is it.
Actually, that's exactly what it is, what the hell do levels or fairness have to do with the fact that when two players fight they are playing vs each other.
I get it that all you kids think if you dont have the exact same levels and gear than it's not fair and as such isn't "real" pvp. Sorry, but you're wrong, I know that often its because you're on the short end of the stick with the disadvantage and you lose and its just easier for you to cope by saying "its not REAL pvp cause we weren't dueling!"
Wrong, dueling is a form of PvP, just as guild vs guild or 1 v 1 player combat is, irregardless of numbers/equipment or levels.
Sorry it took so long to reply, but I had to work. Now then....
Zen Wrote:
In order to live on a open pvp server, your guild has to control good leveling spots, because levels mean everything in MMOs
But then you go on to say.....
i've seen good players like Anti Parazi take down people on a lvl 100 mage quite easily. So no, you're 100% wrong, the game does, very much rely on your skill
Notice how you neglect to tell us the level of the person stomping the lvl 100 mage's ass. Is that the smell of a self contradiction Zen? I think it is. Now if it's really a game of skill, you'll have no problem getting video footage of a BRAND NEW, OUT OF THE BOX character that's naked and armed only with a stick beating the hell out of a MAXED OUT, FULLY EQUIPED character. After all, if it's a game of skill then the stats and equipment don't matter, right? Oh, and no cheating on the video. The beginning lvl character cannot just attack an immobile maxed character until it falls down. I want to see a real fight.
WC3 and Starcraft you say? Well, I can't really say a whole lot about Starcraft since it's been around for a long time and has some serious strategy credit. I'd be more impressed if you were playing Rise of Nations or Age of Mythology, but Starcraft is a good "beer & pretzels" game. Counter-Strike will always have a special place in my heart, but it's no Ghost Recon. And I can only assume that you only play on servers with Punkbuster? I'd HATE to think that you were using spiked models or something. Warcraft 3? Are you kidding me? I remember playing the demo and thinking about buying it for the online angle. And then I learned that the hero you controlled gained levels and skills keeping them between online games. At the point, it was a single player game only. I don't know how you run your local tournaments, but having one Uber unit that's been feeding on bots during the off-season doesn't sound very "strategic" to me.
As for "who I was" on Darktide.... I haven't played AC in almost 5... 6 years? I'm thinking it came out in '98 and I picked it up on the same month it came out. I ran one character on the normal servers and one character on Darktide. My normal character was a straight up fighter because I thought it would be simpler to learn. Later when I tried out Darktide I switched to a Mage character and learned just how unbalanced the character classes really were. Long story short, I played the game for about 20 hours a week for one month. Then I came across this online only shooter called Starsiege: Tribes and I suddenly lost all intrest in RPGS for several years. Seriously, if you can find one person that remembers "Scrye", I would be fuckin' amazed.
And this leads me to my final point. Tournaments? "Top ranking" clans? Who am I? There's this undertone of "look at me I'm special!!" written all over your posts. Obviously, gaming isn't giving you any sense of self worth. If you want to feel good about yourself, go do something that's meaningful. Write a book. Build a house. Learn a foriegn language. Sculpt the worlds largest still life out of hardened oatmeal. Make a mark on the world that will last. Victory comes and goes. I've been doing this online competition thing for a long, long time now. I couldn't tell you shit about the people I played. Other than the people I know in real life and play with, I can't tell you names, ranks, clans, any of that shit. When I play, I only care about that one game. There were no games before, and there are no games after in my mind. There's just me, and the goal. I either win or lose and either way, it doesn't matter. Winning is nice, losing is more valuable. If you don't understand that last line, then you are not a PvPer of any stripe. The fact that you're pushing PvP on a ROLE PLAYING GAME just goes to show how little you understand of what and RPG is, and what competition is all about.
1) Aparently you've completely misunderstood what I was saying with my little pvp scenario, which doesn't really surprise me, so i'll clarify for you. Anti Parazi (who is a VERY skilled player on AC) was playing the lvl 100 mage and despite having a lower level character, much poorer equipment and lower stats/skills all around i've seen him beat chars that are over 175+ which at the time was HUGE. ANYBODY who knows what they're talking about when it comes to pvp on Asheron's Call can attest that as long as you have the skill, and your character is atleast at a self sufficient level (most people consider this 100+ at minimum at this stage of the game) you can kill anybody.
Of course though, you're not playing it that way, because you can't argue your point reasonably you take everything to the extreme and refuse to argue your point with logic. Of course a lvl 1 character cant beat a maxed out character, if that were the case what the fuck would be the point of leveling a character ever on pvp servers? What would be the point of playing at all, all you would ever do would be pointless since any idiot could roll up a new character and kill you, it would be nothing but mindless slaughtering at the n00b outposts all day long. You don't see that though do you, do you possess absolutely no logic at all, or do you have some kind of documented learning disability? You mean to say that you can justifiably testify that striving to improves ones character in the game so that you can earn new skills and better means to defeat your opponent eliminates you from being a PVPer and automatically makes you something else? You're telling me, that any game based on skill has NO OTHER FACTORS involved, such as experience or physique or mental capacity. All of those things are attributes of the player of the game, just as the levels and skills of a players character in a MMO are the attributes of the player's persona. Skill does not equate a sterile 100% even environment, if such was the case there would be no competition, it would always end in a draw. For there to even be a "contest" one player has to surpass the other in some aspects to achieve victory.
2) You insinuation that i'm using "spiked models" in a "professional" cyber league is laughable at best and proves you have nothing left to your arguement other than straight up, ungrounded personal attacks. If you weren't completely ignorant you would know that the Cyberathelete Amateur League has it's own team of admins who investigate any claims of hacking in ANY match and both teams must supply demos on demand as well as begin-game screenshots to prove they're not altering the game in any way, failure to comply usually results in expulsion from any further league events and pretty much tossing your clans reputation down the drain. Want to read up more on CAL? http://www.caleague.com/
3) So you're personal opinion of the strategy games I play now comes into play how? You made a blanked statement assuming I don't play anything else and I proved you wrong. Now you somehow think that saying "wow those games are gay guys11! lolol" makes your point valid? You made an ignorant statement with no proof under the assumption that i'm a gold farming AZN super player in MMOs and that it all I play, which, as i've shown is quite the opposite. Regardless of your PERSONAL OPINION on games, it has absolutely no baring whatso ever on the arguement. I couldn't care less if you think Rise of Nations is the second coming of christ, really.
4) Havn't played AC in 6 years huh..... so you were what.. a pre-alpha tester then? I'm guessing you're compeltely full of shit here, but if you were, then which beta world was the pk server
It was actually released late 99 for a quick history lesson.
5) I've never ONCE stated I was uber, leet or any rediculous other assumption you've chosen to draw to me. You questioned wether or not I played any other games and accused me of being a "hardcore MMO leet kid" when in fact I'd say I'm much more easily labeled as a hardcore CS league player. To backup these claims I gave you FACTUAL evidence (which is the only reason I mentioned my team in Cal-M east, because you can actually look it up and see my username there for proof, instead of tossing out hollow claims). You were the one who jumped to this "leet kiddie" bullshit and questioned my reasoning for backing up pvp in all respects, wether it be open or not. Maybe you consider it fun to beat the shit out of AI in video games but if I had to endure one more hour of the single player borefest that most games bring to the table I think i'd be more apt to just give this shit up. Nothing is fun about playing against computers and beating AI, there is no challenge, especially in any MMO, it's just merely a matter of time vs odds, the more time you have to level your characters the better the odds you have of winning against the AI until those odds are nearly 100% in your favor, woo fun.
6) Lastly, as for this attitude that "PVP is only fun when it's 100% even" bs, I have no idea how to even begin to address that. Do you have ANY idea how unfun pvp is when everyone does the same damage and everyone uses the same weapons? Do you know what it becomes then, a even bigger bastardization of player vs player combat where now it merely comes down to pure numbers, which ever team can zerg the other team the fastest. Character progression and equipment variants is what makes pvp fun, it adds foreign elements that spice things up. I can think of a number of times I went to kill someone 10 levels lower than me who kicked the shit out of me because they had a maxed out weapon that their main character had tinked up for them. Do I find that unfair and think its not real competition because someone who has more time to play than me has an advantage? No.... that's life, there is always people with advantages, and the people who have the extra time and spend so progressing their characters in the game DESERVE to have those advantages, that's fair.
Now, i'm quite finished with this lackluster discussion, you can have your biased oppinions all you like and you can feel free to slap whatever unfounded stereotype on me that you wish if it makes you feel any better. But it doesn't change the fact that PvP would be entirely boring and unfun if it was always 100% equal, there would be no point to it at all and nobody would bother doing it, period. The people that argue otherwise are the true reason pvp in most modern games have died, because they whine and complain to make things 100% balanced and even until pvp becomes a sterilized mathematical equation that lacks any kind of excitement or thrill, and many people who enjoy true pvp hates these types of players for good reason. You're the reason why Devs make pvp such shit and you ruin the fun of it because you are too sensitive about not being able to compete without investing your fair share of time into it like everyone else who plays.
I have rarely read so many generalizations in one single thread.
One common misconception is that PvP is instantly thought as combat and fight. Actually there are a lot of Forms of PvP, which enhance gameplay (Financial PvP, Production PvP, Raw Material Gathering PvP, etc.).
And I know quite a lot of people who I would call hardcore gamer (for the time and decication they put into playing games), who are *not* into PvP.
A bit of tolerance from PvE and PvP type of players for the "other side"would go a long way to avoid such flame fests. For example, in EVE there are also PvPlers complaining about PvElers and vice versa, yet the game also has a lot of players who dont' mind the "others", since EVE tries to cate to both type of player. In EVE, quite a lot of PvPlers (Most I know and have heard of) have one or more "carebear" alt(s) with which they make money to fund their PvP activity or just have casual fun with PvE.
Ofc, a PvEler that logs into a PvP oriented game and get ganked after the screen barely loads, will have a certain opinion of what he think PvP is. So all in all PvPlers need a better "marketing" to make people understand why they like their game and mabye try to win people over. If not, then they have accept the fact that games wiht 100% free combat PvP will stay rare.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Your post is pretty much on the mark, the only thing I'd add to it is that, as I said in my original post, the people who play on the pvp server, die within the first few minutes and then decide they never want to play it again because its "stupid and childish" are the type of people that pvpers on those servers dont want around.
If you give up that easily, that means you expected it to be easy to begin with and playing on ANY pvp server should not be easy, it's the next step up from PvE and as such it's supposed to be harder. The reason why pvpers don't want the players who expect things to be easy to play is that they are the types of players who will consistantly ask for help to do anything, whine and complain endlessly when they die and in general be a burden on the rest of the group.
Now, you can call that a generalization if you'd like, but i've experienced this same thing hundreds of times over the past 5 years of playing AC and I can say that it's almost always the case with the "outpost warriors" (basically, the people who level their characters up to lvl 10 and stay in the n00bie area forever so they can fight only noobies). You have to be in the right frame of mind to play on a open pvp server, you have to accept the fact that you will die, usually pointlessly to people who are higher level with better equipment and stats who have more time to play than you do.
The challenging part is to try and work your way up and be able to compete with these people, that's what makes it fun. It's always a challenge on open pvp servers. I remember leveling on Morningthaw, which is the server I now play on because Darktide is pretty much done, there is very little excitement when you level, it's just another number gone by. Back when I played DT full time it was like every single thing you accomplished was progress and you know that every level you went up, you were that much closer to reaching your goal of being able to compete and kill the big guys. That's what makes pvp fun, the competition.
Simple
PvE and/or PvP servers for the game
PvE servers can have a combat system for PvP just like a PvP server would. Except characters could turn on some kind of "safety" flag where they cannot kill or be killed by other players.
In the PvP server, everything is game from level 1 and on. The moment you first spawn a character, sky is the limit.
The only reason it sucks is cause sometimes this splits communities into halfs. Guys who want PvE and some PvP, guys who want PvP with no PvE sept for leveling or getting better items, guys who want PvE with friends but no PvP.
WoW seems to have done a good take on it
I know it is often the way you describe. Very often people misunderstand what PvPlers like in PvP. But I also know other stories.
One good example (out of a few) I'd like to present to you. It happened in EVE. The player was a nice girl, who liked to mine all day - nothing else (btw, that is seen by PvPlers as one of the most dreadful activities in game). She didn't even want to go to the more dangerous zones, where she could make more profit though. She was all frightened (literally) by the prospect that an other player may attack her and destroy her ship. PvP was something with which you could really scare her. One year later she is in one of the biggest Mercenary corps of EVE and only lives to PvP in game. I think she doesn't even really remember when she mined last.
A bit drastic, but things like that happen. Though maybe its a bit more likely in EVE, where "carebears" and pvplers are "forced" to live on one server, who knows.
I also understand your point about the certain mindset that you have to have for PVPing, but where is the harm to explain people things? Give them a hand and help them out occasionally? I think that there are a lot of potential PvPlers out there. Players who would be an enrichment for the "PVP-faction" of their chosen game. There is not only "PvP Mindset" and NON-PvP Mindset" type of gamer out there. There are a lot of people, who would give it a try, though haven't done so for whatever reasons.
I think also one problem is that a lot of the "carebear" people imagine PvPlers as spotted 12year old who w***** off after each kill they make. Sure there may be those types around in some games, but then again I know enough "carebears" who I'd really have liked to shoot on the moon for their inaceptable, imature behaviour.
Well, it all boils down to the need of more acceptance on "both sides".
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Project Delta
Zen wrote:
ANYBODY who knows what they're talking about when it comes to pvp on Asheron's Call can attest that as long as you have the skill, and your character is atleast at a self sufficient level (most people consider this 100+ at minimum at this stage of the game) you can kill anybody.
So why don't they just fix it so that you can't PK until lvl 100? After all, what's the point if you can't even compete until lvl 100? Why even allow anyone to attack someone under lvl 100? Seems like it would be a more sportsmanlike way to do things.....
Of course though, you're not playing it that way, because you can't argue your point reasonably you take everything to the extreme and refuse to argue your point with logic.
To be fair, I should have armed the lvl 1 character with a sling. Realistically, the lvl 1 character could win in that situation. In AC they couldn't. Therefore, AC is more about levels and loot than skill and planning.
Of course a lvl 1 character cant beat a maxed out character, if that were the case what the fuck would be the point of leveling a character ever on pvp servers? What would be the point of playing at all, all you would ever do would be pointless since any idiot could roll up a new character and kill you
You play Counter-Strike. Figure it out. Take Team Fortress Classic as an example. You're stats and equipment are locked by character class. Yet, it's a game of skill so people find plenty of point to it. And don't give me that "TFC is an FPS" shit. You're telling me that MMORPGs require skill and if they did, then levels and equipment WOULDN'T matter. They do. And MMORPGs are counting contests at best.
You're telling me, that any game based on skill has NO OTHER FACTORS involved, such as experience or physique or mental capacity. All of those things are attributes of the player of the game
The key element of this remark is "attributes of the player of the game" i.e., not the character the player is using. In Gran Turismo, you could have the car with the most horsepower and all the upgrades, but if you don't know how to handle that car or are unfamiliar with the track you're racing, you'll lose.
Skill does not equate a sterile 100% even environment, if such was the case there would be no competition, it would always end in a draw. For there to even be a "contest" one player has to surpass the other in some aspects to achieve victory.
This almost doesn't make any sense, but I'll try to translate through context clues. The skills of the players don't make the game 100% even, but the game mechanics do. If both players start out on the same footing with the same advantages and disadvantages, then it's a fair game. This is why Chess is a fair game and combat between a lvl 175+ mage and a lvl 1 squire is not.
You insinuation that i'm using "spiked models" in a "professional" cyber league is laughable at best and proves you have nothing left to your arguement other than straight up, ungrounded personal attacks
Actually I was just trying to get a rise out of you for my own amusment. At that point I had given up all hope of reasoning with you.
Now you somehow think that saying "wow those games are gay guys11! lolol" makes your point valid?
I only trashed on Warcraft 3 and that was because of the RPG developement of the players "hero". I called Starcraft a "beer & pretzels" game because that's what it is. Simple, fun, and all together well done. Some of the best wargames ever made are in this catagory. Axis & Allies, Empire, Diplomacy, these are all "beer & Pretzels" games. Their simplicity is their strength. I generally like more depth in my strategy games so I like titles like Rome: Total War and Rise of Nations. I'm actually glad to see that you play at least two games that require some skill (Starcraft and Counter-Strike).
Havn't played AC in 6 years huh..... so you were what.. a pre-alpha tester then? I'm guessing you're compeltely full of shit here, but if you were, then which beta world was the pk server
It was actually released late 99 for a quick history lesson.
No, I wasn't a pre-alpha tester. I bought it shortly after it went gold and '99 sounds about right. The only reason I remember it at all is because I bought Tribes shortly after and I know I got Tribes 2 weeks after it came out. Alot has gone on in my life since then so I probably have something out of sequence.
I've never ONCE stated I was uber, leet or any rediculous other assumption you've chosen to draw to me.
No, you're not elite.... You just think that if you can't devote an (unspecified) amount of time on MMORPGs, you shouldn't play them. You set up velvet ropes and then claim that you don't consider yourself elite? I'm just working with what you give me.
Lastly, as for this attitude that "PVP is only fun when it's 100% even" bs, I have no idea how to even begin to address that
You could start by deconstructing chess and explain how it would be more fun if one player was forced to play with nothing but a king and a pawn. After that you could do the same with checkers, go, backgammon, football, tennis, <insert game here>....
The people that argue otherwise are the true reason pvp in most modern games have died, because they whine and complain to make things 100% balanced and even until pvp becomes a sterilized mathematical equation that lacks any kind of excitement or thrill,
Honestly, it's the "sterilized mathematical equation" that keeps me from taking PvP in RPGs seriously. Why? Because that's exactly what PvP in an RPG is. I could recap the history of RPGs going back to their roots in the Pen and Paper games of the late '70s and early '80s. I could go on to explain that these games were originally co-op storytelling exercises with the DM describing a dramatic situation to the players and then having them figure a way out using only the characters and abilities that they made previous to the game. I could even point out that it's more than a little ignorant to walk into a Role Playing Game and then be pissed because people are role playing or just hanging out and crawling dungeons rather than killing eachother. But you seem bright enough to figure that out yourself.