[quote]Originally posted by Etcarr Well, I do NOT agree that instancing is a bad thing. IF a game was created with no instancing, the servers would need to be very localized so that players from +6 timezones do not get an unfair advantage to the game content. We learned in EQ1 that it is simply a bad design when players with a timezone advantage are able to have more fun and see more game content than other players.
Thirdly... if the forums over at www.vanguardsoh.com are any indication of the type of players that this game will attract, count me out. I am not a power gamer with no life outside of the game. The Vanguard message forums are full of hard core gamers... and there is no way I want to get sucked into a compitition with hard core gamers. I learned my lesson with EQ1. No thanks, not making that mistake again.
[/b][/quote]
so.. you care about seeing content and not having to compete agaisnt hardcore guilds, but you don't want to be a hardcore gamer? Gl with that one..
Instancing, is it really needed? Sure, it's a nice gimmick at times to avoid dungeons from getting too crowded, but wouldn't it be true that if the world was big enough with enough good dungeons to explore then it wouldn't be an issue.
And please keep in the long travel time. IMO opinion it adds to the immersiveness of the game and provides flavor, letting players like me feel like we're in that alternate world and not just some digitally concocted pseudo-reality. Make players hump it out across dark territories in early levels and sit through those long ass boat rides to new continents. Hearthstones which give insta-teleports from danger areas and split second travel between continents and other areas = bad and boring.
what is the point of having a persistant world if all you do is camp instances??
using world of warcraft as a good example of instancing is horrid. i loved wow but man... there was all this content, open pvp, cities to raid, all that stuff you love in a good mmorpg but....
if your sitting there farming bg instances (usually the same one over and over again) or doing the high end raiding instances, why even have a world there anymore? you dont get to see it unless you are traveling to go to another instance. for this reason after making almost 4 lvl 60 toons i quit the game
to me playing a mmorpg means playing in a persistant world with other players, not farming instances....if i wanted that i would play guild wars or d2.
so obviously the point im trying to make is instances takes away from the feel of a persistant world and it takes away from the community. vanguard will be fine without instances, lets just hope the rest of the game turns out well
Originally posted by Kem0sabe Instanced dungeons are to me, the true epiphany of what fantasy mmorpgs should be.
Thank god you have WoW then. Instancing takes away from the community as players are secluded off in their private dungeon parlor instead of "interacting" like we should be. Why should 17 different groups all have their own private copy of a dungeon? I want to play in a place that I can enter and leave and it still exists without me being there. not created on my group entering like I'm playing some interactive novel: I want to be in the novel.
A pervasive world should not have instances, it should be one big world that everyone plays in. This is what an MMORPG is.
Originally posted by angerr what is the point of having a persistant world if all you do is camp instances??
If all you do, yes. Also, they will have to address the serious network issues that arise with instanced dungeons. However, it can be done and in a fun manner if the developers know what they are doing.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
a lot of games use instancing and it can be done in many different ways.
you got the guildwars and DDO style, and you have the EQ2 style. EQ2 instancing has respawning mobs while DDO doesnt. in DDO and GW the instance is generated for your party, in EQ2 its generated per x number of players to reduce congestion.
I think instancing is a good thing if its used in a smart way. However, I dont like GW or DDO mainly because it feels like your just stepping through "doors". WoW had some instancing and it made sense for the most part. They just reserved it for larger quests, elites etc. I still think they could have done more with it though.
as far as the forums go, the worst time to visit a game forum is right before its release during beta testing. Everyone thinks that their forum post count is the ticket to getting into beta and you will see countless arguements and plain noise on the forums all the way until the NDA is lifted. Everyone playing developer "we need this" "we need" ..so ya just dont get involved with the forums because with all the noise and no real discussions on the actual game (just other players ideas) its not worth it.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I have been way way way to quiet, just silently reading, but the last few posts finnally knocked me into typing some stuffzors, Well bro if your trying to find a game with instances no competition of hardcore gamers, and not looking for a challenge, just stick with WoW, I for one am GLAD your passing this game up, and for another thing I wouldnt want people like you playign my beloved game here.
With that being said, heres coems my rant.
Well bud, theres nothing that i hate more than hearing someone say somehting is TOO HARD, or TOO MUCH COMPETITION in a game. I mean thats what makes the game ENJOYABLE, and lets you rmemeber why you play it, not to be the BEST just to have fun man. Cause lord knows you cant beat the guy that doesnt have a girlfriend no job and lives on welfare his whole life, you cant beat that guy. But still doesnt mean you cant have fun just playing the game.
I mean seriously, why dont you play some of those games that little kids play for school, umm Leapfrog i think their called, because its too easy and no challenge. Well alot of MMOS are like Leapfrog to me, its to easy, and you know how its gonna end up. But this game has spark, their offering CONTENT! NOT Thousands of redundant Quests. CONTENT, theres a big difference between kill x amount of jer jer beans and return to x, and travel from point a to point b making it alive, and fighting through lots of mobs let alone Other players. maybe even getting lost in the landscape. Thats content. But hell if your happy camping instances, and sitting around traveling from instance to instance thats cool, have fun, not my kind of game. I like to play with other PEOPLE in a MASSIVE MULITPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME, but hell that maybe just us. I mean go play DDO if you want what your looking for, im sure they could use more people like you, since thats all that game is. Go Fan Boi there dont Trash our perfection of a game.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 Here here. Fully agree. Alot of them at Vanguard are a bunch of elitest lifers. And if you dont agree with them and developers 100% you get flamed out pretty much everytime. The only other board I have encountered that was that bad was the original counterstrike boards back during the 1.5 days. Nothing but Llamas and flamers.
If that is any indication of what the game community will be like then I dont want to have anything to do with it.
Kai
Its true and I have gotten several of the Vanguard members banned here for the same posts they make there to ANY critism of their crappy game.
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
Originally posted by kaibigan34 Here here. Fully agree. Alot of them at Vanguard are a bunch of elitest lifers. And if you dont agree with them and developers 100% you get flamed out pretty much everytime. The only other board I have encountered that was that bad was the original counterstrike boards back during the 1.5 days. Nothing but Llamas and flamers.
If that is any indication of what the game community will be like then I dont want to have anything to do with it.
Kai
Its true and I have gotten several of the Vanguard members banned here for the same posts they make there to ANY critism of their crappy game.
I disagree "elitist lifers" should be "elitist NO lifers" the rest is spot on Kai and Sebbonx.
5 million players and your aiming for 100k?! Don't bash my game when your PUNY game is made for the wierdo's amounting to a tiny fraction of the MMORPG populace...you're just jealous and like crappy unpopular raid garbage. Go zerg another mob and call it "skill" it's not even remotely skill.
umm i hate to break it to ya but even wow is a "crappy unpopular raid garbage" game. I'm not bashing wow don't get me wrong but that statement is way off...
you complain about vanguards community?......have you not seen wow's? it is the worst i have seen by far.
i am getting sick of you wow fans pretending like every other game is "puny" because it doesn't sell 5 million copies. just like the other idiot (I'm not saying any names) that thinks vanguard will "flop" because it don't sell 5 million copies like wow did.
a game does not need to sell 5 million copies to be successful, good for wow it pulled it off but every other game that has ever been released hasn't sold anywhere near that...so does that mean they are all "puny" or a "flop"?
the only argument you people ever have is "wow sold 5 million copies so it must be the best!" and dread the thought of anyone wanting to play any other game besides wow.
there is enough people playing wow right now, why do you fear other games so much? why do you even care? why do you even go to the vanguard boards if your just going to play wow anyways? makes no sense to me, anyways I'm out of here....going to go "zerg another mob and call it skill".....in wow!
I've been quietly following Vanguard for quite some time, and the design philosophy Brad, Jeff and the Sigil crew have regarding this game I grow more and more interested in. I should also note that I'm relatively new to this genre, having started with WoW and never having played the original EQ. However, there are many aspects to this game that are very appealing to even a newbie to the MMO world like myself (such as more involved combat, no instancing (better community), and an overall longer lasting game).
That being said though, whoever said the Vanguard forum community is elitist is dead on. They seem to be downright hostile to anyone who doesn't have a background stemming from EQLive, and if you've played and enjoyed WoW, you're basically a laughing stock.
Basically, while the game itself is interesting to me, I'm a little wary of what the in-game communtity will turn into. If the forums are any indication...yeesh.
Originally posted by darquenblade Think I'll chime in a bit here... I've been quietly following Vanguard for quite some time, and the design philosophy Brad, Jeff and the Sigil crew have regarding this game I grow more and more interested in. I should also note that I'm relatively new to this genre, having started with WoW and never having played the original EQ. However, there are many aspects to this game that are very appealing to even a newbie to the MMO world like myself (such as more involved combat, no instancing (better community), and an overall longer lasting game). That being said though, whoever said the Vanguard forum community is elitist is dead on. They seem to be downright hostile to anyone who doesn't have a background stemming from EQLive, and if you've played and enjoyed WoW, you're basically a laughing stock. Basically, while the game itself is interesting to me, I'm a little wary of what the in-game communtity will turn into. If the forums are any indication...yeesh.
I think that some of that elitism comes out of frustration with the trend toward "dumbing down" games. Some people worked very hard for their achievements in EQ1, and have been looking for a new experience, but not an easier one, only to find other games failing to deliver that.
If you're a real old timer from EQLive, you remember starting the game with no cash and not even a spare bag, having to travel over long distances on foot or by boat (which meant waiting for the boat to come, and then actually riding it through the next zone-- not a matter of just loading to your destination), harsh death penalties, and always the possibility of not being able to get back to your corpse. And for some of us, those were the FUN parts of the game... So, yeah, those people can be a little snobby when they look at games that don't offer those sorts of challenges to advancement. I don't agree with that attitude, but I do understand it, having "been there and done that", as it were.
In my experience, the tone on the forums is usually a bazillion times worse than in game, with most games. The in-game community should be fairly helpful and excited about checking out all the stuff they haven't seen or done before. But, as always, there will be a few dorks.
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Originally posted by darquenblade Think I'll chime in a bit here... I've been quietly following Vanguard for quite some time, and the design philosophy Brad, Jeff and the Sigil crew have regarding this game I grow more and more interested in. I should also note that I'm relatively new to this genre, having started with WoW and never having played the original EQ. However, there are many aspects to this game that are very appealing to even a newbie to the MMO world like myself (such as more involved combat, no instancing (better community), and an overall longer lasting game). That being said though, whoever said the Vanguard forum community is elitist is dead on. They seem to be downright hostile to anyone who doesn't have a background stemming from EQLive, and if you've played and enjoyed WoW, you're basically a laughing stock. Basically, while the game itself is interesting to me, I'm a little wary of what the in-game communtity will turn into. If the forums are any indication...yeesh.
you gatta remember bro, the forum ppl are hardcore...it is not going to make up the community as a whole. and because it is not a pvp geared game that will actually discourage most "eliteist" type dudes IMO.
besides....if you can put up with wow's bnet type community, trust me.... you can put up with anything!
Just dont play vanguard, i dont care. You mean nothing!
LoL with that being said, yes this is more of an elitiest game as of right now, only cause geeks are the only ones posting on forums of a game, that isnt even out yet, and not going to be out for months.
I mean, what did you expect casuals to be stalking these forums? Pffffft.
Nah hardcore gamers roam these halls, and get used to it, cause no matter how elite you think you are, theres always someone better.
Just dont play vanguard go ahead, take a pass on it. Your the one that will be missing out, not me. oh and also i love receivign these -p
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I have come to the conclusion reading many of these ridiculous posts that ignorance really is bliss at least right up until the very instant you realize that you have, indeed, been ignorant. If some of you get to that point of revelation and realization, think of this post, however dont despair for only after that point will there be hope of understanding...
If you are still in high school I highly recommend taking a psychology course next semester (or as soon as possible) as it may show you the basic human tendencies that lead to self-accomplishment and a sense of reward- which is the pivotal feature in mmos. Ever heard the saying there is no good without evil, or gotta take the good with the bad etc etc? The concept here (which is fundamentally a basic fact of life) is that if you live without fluctuation, with no variation then you have nothing to compare, therefore you cannot say what is good or what is bad. A very stupid example though, is if you were borne in hell (lol, ok lets say its a metaphor ;P) and thats all you knew throughout your life then the days it wasnt so hot down there would be good days for you, but for someone borne in heaven that same good day to you may be the worst day in their lives. This is true in MMOs in the form that if for example, you get everything handed to you then the reward you feel isnt so great because although the reward may be good, you really have no bad(in mmos bad: struggle, difficulty, time, energy, effort) to compare it too and so the reward cannot be significant or meaningful. It is just how we, as humans, think. We compare and contrast things in our lives to evaluate and examine them. In a game, and even more so in a SOCIAL game, these things are very important factors that determine the players enjoyment of a game. We contrast the effort with the reward and, the higher the effort to acquire the reward, the more valued and appreciated a reward becomes. Also by reward I dont just mean in the sense that most people talk about it in these forums (such as ubber items, and gold coins) but a reward may be the combat system. The more involvement in combat and the more difficult combat is, requiring logical thinking and skill, the more you will feel accomplishment after each battle. The same goes for everything else. If an MMO has an in-game map and you travel to a destination for the first time, what do you feel? Maybe a faint sense of unfamiliarity or marvel at the graphics if the environment is nice but that feeling is fleeting at best. Whereas a game with no ingame map where you need to ask around different players for direction and manually find your way there,maybe getting lost or killed along the way, provides a much different sensation. If the destination is also graphically nice then the feeling maybe approaching a sort of ecstatic overwhelming joy of accomplishing something truly difficult. (ps the new generation gamer who has not experienced real travel may not understand how travel can feel like that but trust us old timers, it most certainly can)
I think a main problem behind why so many people are screaming at us like we were anti-Semitists operating the gas chamber, is because it is naturally assumed that the feeling or reward is directly connected with the ubber item of 1337 firyness when in reality it is a direct correlation with the risk/difficulty/strain associated with getting it. This issue ties in directly with the death penalty debate also. If the death penalty really does hurt then dying will mean something to people and a nice corpse run will be that much better apon completion ;P. furthermore the whole world will feel like a much more dangerous place and knowing that loss in combat will really impact you will make the world that much more exciting and subsequently every other achievement be it a quest or traveling to new exotic location will be that much more rewarding. More rewarding because there will always be that chance of screwing up and dying. Anyway im sure most of you knew this but it seems many kiddies just want the end reward and never consider what makes the reward just that.
So just remember: there is no good without the bad, there is no (real)accomplishment without risk.
As to the people spouting off the eliteness of the sigil forum members, I would like to say that there are always a few rotten apples in a large enough bunch (especially once theyve sat in the sun for a while ) However for the most part the community is a very mature and intelligent group. Just because a lot of people dont know how to hold an intelligent conversation does not give them the right to write off the community as elitist, hardcore, minority. Infact more than a few members there have been around the block more than some of you combined. Many hold their roots from way back in early D&D days or from early MUDS, and a bunch from the early community have recently gotten positions at Sigil which just shows that they are highly knowledgeable in making and playing MMOs. I admit though that a recent shift is evident as newer arrivals jump on the band wagon and sort of corrupt the boards with their immaturity. BTW I dont mean to discriminate against age but it is generally true that the older you get the wiser and more accurate your views on life gets.
Sorry for the rant and incoherent rambling but its late and im tired and I just had to post on this. But yeah definitely do a psychology course if you dont understand what makes a game fun. Most of these new game design schools incorporate a small form of it now-a-days dont they? I think every MMO designer should have completed psychology education of some sort to make a truly fun next gen game.
Originally posted by Etcarr Well, I do NOT agree that instancing is a bad thing. IF a game was created with no instancing, the servers would need to be very localized so that players from +6 timezones do not get an unfair advantage to the game content. We learned in EQ1 that it is simply a bad design when players with a timezone advantage are able to have more fun and see more game content than other players. Second of all, travel. Sigil says that travel should be fun, not trival. While I agree that SoE went overboard with portals and "hub zones" in EQ1, it is not my idea of fun having to hack through tons of content to get to any destination. EQ1 had classes (druid and wizard) that where rendered obolete by the hub zones. But to make all travel "interesting" by any standard will make the game too time intensive. Thirdly... if the forums over at www.vanguardsoh.com are any indication of the type of players that this game will attract, count me out. I am not a power gamer with no life outside of the game. The Vanguard message forums are full of hard core gamers... and there is no way I want to get sucked into a compitition with hard core gamers. I learned my lesson with EQ1. No thanks, not making that mistake again.
I'm not a "power gamer or a hardcore gamer" however I enjoy a game that's got a since of reward for the amount of risk you take. Vanguard has promised a more mature way of gameplay, one comparible to EQ1. Not one that gives you quests, armor, rewards on a silver platter, WoW's a good example of this... you can die 500 times and the only thing you lose is some armor durability which you can repair so you esentially lose nothing. If you want quick reward and minimal time needed to get those rewards then Vanguard isn't for you. There are games for all sorts of people.
As for instancing, it ruins a community... just look at Guildwars community... oh wait... what community?? There isn't one there cause every thing is instanced. WoW's run by anti-social kids so there's hardly any community there and having the dungeons all instanced also doesn't help what little community it has. Community is what EQ1 had back when the bazaar consisted of hanging around the East Common Tunnels, it consisted of helping one another out with the idea of just helping one another not grouping up to complete a quest for yourself. It consided of having to depend on your friends to get your body back. It added a since of maturity to the game, when you saw a shout that said "Can someone help me find my body please" You felt like you should help out or answer his shout cause you've been where he's been, and how much it sucked to not only lose XP but lose your body as well.
As for your timezone issue, perhaps you should pick a server that was in or closest to your timezone. If your trying to go after mobs that were camped alot then you sound like more of a hardcore gamer then you let on my friend.
I'm so tired of reading about people like you that don't want to spend "alot" of time playing a game... if that's the case go play WoW or a console game that has a pause button. Leave the people that enjoyed EQ1 to Vanguard and simply leave quietly.
Originally posted by dunadurium Dunadurium hates noobs <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I have come to the conclusion reading many of these ridiculous posts that ignorance really is bliss at least right up until the very instant you realize that you have, indeed, been ignorant. If some of you get to that point of revelation and realization, think of this post, however dont despair for only after that point will there be hope of understanding... If you are still in high school I highly recommend taking a psychology course next semester (or as soon as possible) as it may show you the basic human tendencies that lead to self-accomplishment and a sense of reward- which is the pivotal feature in mmos. Ever heard the saying there is no good without evil, or gotta take the good with the bad etc etc? The concept here (which is fundamentally a basic fact of life) is that if you live without fluctuation, with no variation then you have nothing to compare, therefore you cannot say what is good or what is bad. A very stupid example though, is if you were borne in hell (lol, ok lets say its a metaphor ;P) and thats all you knew throughout your life then the days it wasnt so hot down there would be good days for you, but for someone borne in heaven that same good day to you may be the worst day in their lives. This is true in MMOs in the form that if for example, you get everything handed to you then the reward you feel isnt so great because although the reward may be good, you really have no bad(in mmos bad: struggle, difficulty, time, energy, effort) to compare it too and so the reward cannot be significant or meaningful. It is just how we, as humans, think. We compare and contrast things in our lives to evaluate and examine them. In a game, and even more so in a SOCIAL game, these things are very important factors that determine the players enjoyment of a game. We contrast the effort with the reward and, the higher the effort to acquire the reward, the more valued and appreciated a reward becomes. Also by reward I dont just mean in the sense that most people talk about it in these forums (such as ubber items, and gold coins) but a reward may be the combat system. The more involvement in combat and the more difficult combat is, requiring logical thinking and skill, the more you will feel accomplishment after each battle. The same goes for everything else. If an MMO has an in-game map and you travel to a destination for the first time, what do you feel? Maybe a faint sense of unfamiliarity or marvel at the graphics if the environment is nice but that feeling is fleeting at best. Whereas a game with no ingame map where you need to ask around different players for direction and manually find your way there,maybe getting lost or killed along the way, provides a much different sensation. If the destination is also graphically nice then the feeling maybe approaching a sort of ecstatic overwhelming joy of accomplishing something truly difficult. (ps the new generation gamer who has not experienced real travel may not understand how travel can feel like that but trust us old timers, it most certainly can) I think a main problem behind why so many people are screaming at us like we were anti-Semitists operating the gas chamber, is because it is naturally assumed that the feeling or reward is directly connected with the ubber item of 1337 firyness when in reality it is a direct correlation with the risk/difficulty/strain associated with getting it. This issue ties in directly with the death penalty debate also. If the death penalty really does hurt then dying will mean something to people and a nice corpse run will be that much better apon completion ;P. furthermore the whole world will feel like a much more dangerous place and knowing that loss in combat will really impact you will make the world that much more exciting and subsequently every other achievement be it a quest or traveling to new exotic location will be that much more rewarding. More rewarding because there will always be that chance of screwing up and dying. Anyway im sure most of you knew this but it seems many kiddies just want the end reward and never consider what makes the reward just that. So just remember: there is no good without the bad, there is no (real)accomplishment without risk. As to the people spouting off the eliteness of the sigil forum members, I would like to say that there are always a few rotten apples in a large enough bunch (especially once theyve sat in the sun for a while ) However for the most part the community is a very mature and intelligent group. Just because a lot of people dont know how to hold an intelligent conversation does not give them the right to write off the community as elitist, hardcore, minority. Infact more than a few members there have been around the block more than some of you combined. Many hold their roots from way back in early D&D days or from early MUDS, and a bunch from the early community have recently gotten positions at Sigil which just shows that they are highly knowledgeable in making and playing MMOs. I admit though that a recent shift is evident as newer arrivals jump on the band wagon and sort of corrupt the boards with their immaturity. BTW I dont mean to discriminate against age but it is generally true that the older you get the wiser and more accurate your views on life gets. Sorry for the rant and incoherent rambling but its late and im tired and I just had to post on this. But yeah definitely do a psychology course if you dont understand what makes a game fun. Most of these new game design schools incorporate a small form of it now-a-days dont they? I think every MMO designer should have completed psychology education of some sort to make a truly fun next gen game. ~Dunadurium
Before you go telling the unwashed masses to take psychology classes, you should take an English class to remind yourself that paragraphs are beneficial. That was hard on the eyes.
That being said though, I do agree with the bulk of what you said. However, I'm still sticking to what I said about Vanguard's community. I'm not saying that everyone is an elitist jerk, but many are. You point to the bad apples as the WoW newbies who are joining the forums. There are some asshats in that bunch to be sure, but mostly what they get is a "get the hell out of here, this game isn't for you" response from the community, even if they are interested in Vanguard's game mechanics. Many times the flaming occurs not because the WoWers come in demanding Vanguard change X features, but because the person is looked down upon simply because they played WoW and enjoyed it.
I'm really into the ideas behind this game, and will probably dive in at release, but I am just so sick of being seen as not 'worthy' for this game simply because I didn't play old school EQ back in the day. So many of these Vanguard forumites seem to think that the newcomers to the genre have no idea how to really play an MMO (and here comes the annoying part) and because of that shouldn't even bother looking at Vanguard. This is primarily what I mean when I say they are elitist. "You are not one of us (the old guard), so go away." Even Brad McQuaid himself has made posts on the subject that the Vanguard community should try to take an INclusionary approach to potential new players, and not an EXclusionary one.
One more thing I would like to add. WoW might be the simpleton's MMO (it is simple, which is why I don't play it any more), but one must realize that without it, Vanguard might have been scrapped by now. Microsoft showed the world that they were not afraid to cancel an MMO by sacking Mythica in early 2004. Now if WoW had not become the success that it is, MS might have done the same thing to Vanguard eventually (of course, there's pretty much no fear of that now).
Well, that's all I have to say. Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you.
Originally posted by dunadurium Dunadurium hates noobs <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I have come to the conclusion reading many of these ridiculous posts that ignorance really is bliss at least right up until the very instant you realize that you have, indeed, been ignorant. If some of you get to that point of revelation and realization, think of this post, however dont despair for only after that point will there be hope of understanding... If you are still in high school I highly recommend taking a psychology course next semester (or as soon as possible) as it may show you the basic human tendencies that lead to self-accomplishment and a sense of reward- which is the pivotal feature in mmos. Ever heard the saying there is no good without evil, or gotta take the good with the bad etc etc? The concept here (which is fundamentally a basic fact of life) is that if you live without fluctuation, with no variation then you have nothing to compare, therefore you cannot say what is good or what is bad. A very stupid example though, is if you were borne in hell (lol, ok lets say its a metaphor ;P) and thats all you knew throughout your life then the days it wasnt so hot down there would be good days for you, but for someone borne in heaven that same good day to you may be the worst day in their lives. This is true in MMOs in the form that if for example, you get everything handed to you then the reward you feel isnt so great because although the reward may be good, you really have no bad(in mmos bad: struggle, difficulty, time, energy, effort) to compare it too and so the reward cannot be significant or meaningful. It is just how we, as humans, think. We compare and contrast things in our lives to evaluate and examine them. In a game, and even more so in a SOCIAL game, these things are very important factors that determine the players enjoyment of a game. We contrast the effort with the reward and, the higher the effort to acquire the reward, the more valued and appreciated a reward becomes. Also by reward I dont just mean in the sense that most people talk about it in these forums (such as ubber items, and gold coins) but a reward may be the combat system. The more involvement in combat and the more difficult combat is, requiring logical thinking and skill, the more you will feel accomplishment after each battle. The same goes for everything else. If an MMO has an in-game map and you travel to a destination for the first time, what do you feel? Maybe a faint sense of unfamiliarity or marvel at the graphics if the environment is nice but that feeling is fleeting at best. Whereas a game with no ingame map where you need to ask around different players for direction and manually find your way there,maybe getting lost or killed along the way, provides a much different sensation. If the destination is also graphically nice then the feeling maybe approaching a sort of ecstatic overwhelming joy of accomplishing something truly difficult. (ps the new generation gamer who has not experienced real travel may not understand how travel can feel like that but trust us old timers, it most certainly can) I think a main problem behind why so many people are screaming at us like we were anti-Semitists operating the gas chamber, is because it is naturally assumed that the feeling or reward is directly connected with the ubber item of 1337 firyness when in reality it is a direct correlation with the risk/difficulty/strain associated with getting it. This issue ties in directly with the death penalty debate also. If the death penalty really does hurt then dying will mean something to people and a nice corpse run will be that much better apon completion ;P. furthermore the whole world will feel like a much more dangerous place and knowing that loss in combat will really impact you will make the world that much more exciting and subsequently every other achievement be it a quest or traveling to new exotic location will be that much more rewarding. More rewarding because there will always be that chance of screwing up and dying. Anyway im sure most of you knew this but it seems many kiddies just want the end reward and never consider what makes the reward just that. So just remember: there is no good without the bad, there is no (real)accomplishment without risk. As to the people spouting off the eliteness of the sigil forum members, I would like to say that there are always a few rotten apples in a large enough bunch (especially once theyve sat in the sun for a while ) However for the most part the community is a very mature and intelligent group. Just because a lot of people dont know how to hold an intelligent conversation does not give them the right to write off the community as elitist, hardcore, minority. Infact more than a few members there have been around the block more than some of you combined. Many hold their roots from way back in early D&D days or from early MUDS, and a bunch from the early community have recently gotten positions at Sigil which just shows that they are highly knowledgeable in making and playing MMOs. I admit though that a recent shift is evident as newer arrivals jump on the band wagon and sort of corrupt the boards with their immaturity. BTW I dont mean to discriminate against age but it is generally true that the older you get the wiser and more accurate your views on life gets. Sorry for the rant and incoherent rambling but its late and im tired and I just had to post on this. But yeah definitely do a psychology course if you dont understand what makes a game fun. Most of these new game design schools incorporate a small form of it now-a-days dont they? I think every MMO designer should have completed psychology education of some sort to make a truly fun next gen game. ~Dunadurium
Before you go telling the unwashed masses to take psychology classes, you should take an English class to remind yourself that paragraphs are beneficial. That was hard on the eyes.
That being said though, I do agree with the bulk of what you said. However, I'm still sticking to what I said about Vanguard's community. I'm not saying that everyone is an elitist jerk, but many are. You point to the bad apples as the WoW newbies who are joining the forums. There are some asshats in that bunch to be sure, but mostly what they get is a "get the hell out of here, this game isn't for you" response from the community, even if they are interested in Vanguard's game mechanics. Many times the flaming occurs not because the WoWers come in demanding Vanguard change X features, but because the person is looked down upon simply because they played WoW and enjoyed it.
I'm really into the ideas behind this game, and will probably dive in at release, but I am just so sick of being seen as not 'worthy' for this game simply because I didn't play old school EQ back in the day. So many of these Vanguard forumites seem to think that the newcomers to the genre have no idea how to really play an MMO (and here comes the annoying part) and because of that shouldn't even bother looking at Vanguard. This is primarily what I mean when I say they are elitist. "You are not one of us (the old guard), so go away." Even Brad McQuaid himself has made posts on the subject that the Vanguard community should try to take an INclusionary approach to potential new players, and not an EXclusionary one.
One more thing I would like to add. WoW might be the simpleton's MMO (it is simple, which is why I don't play it any more), but one must realize that without it, Vanguard might have been scrapped by now. Microsoft showed the world that they were not afraid to cancel an MMO by sacking Mythica in early 2004. Now if WoW had not become the success that it is, MS might have done the same thing to Vanguard eventually (of course, there's pretty much no fear of that now).
Well, that's all I have to say. Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you.
Well. Its time for me to chime in I guess. First off I dont know why you need to comment on someones writing style? Ah, oh it hurts meh eyes omg mommy!? There was more insight and knowledge in that one post then you probably would ever have to contribute ok now that I have slayed and defeated the grammar nazi I shall tackle your post which is lacking.
So you think MS might cancel VGSOH because they canceled mythica? Well your thought process is wrong because you simply dont know what your talking about. MS has been very frugal about what team they would be willing to work with to create the best mmorpg. MS wants the BEST. By god after that whole Turbine fiasco they should be cautious. Games like Mythica and True Fantasy Online simply are not good enough for MS. Of course when they had a chance to work with brad they jumped on it.
For some of the old guard, a lot of us felt WoW was the closest game, this in large part due to how bad EQ2 was. So a lot of us put in the time and the work and to find out that WoW has the worst community ever. Sure me being one of them, I am at fault. I should have known since I played blizz games that the Battle.net community would not be able to function in a mmo. So yeah, I sure as hell dont wana see you people in vanguard. I left WoW to get far away from you people. I dont want to see the various interesting conversations that go on in WoW. You know? The OMFGBBQ l00k at meh new uber weapon or you fucken n00b, ill rape your mom! LOL! or OMFG n00b! Rick James OWNS Chuck Norris..N00b! Serious, stay in your shit and leave us alone. I have a feeling that the WoWers will invade just to grief us. So yeah, I guess im an elitist. Stay in wow and leave us the fuck alone.
Well. Its time for me to chime in I guess. First off I dont know why you need to comment on someones writing style? Ah, oh it hurts meh eyes omg mommy!? There was more insight and knowledge in that one post then you probably would ever have to contribute ok now that I have slayed and defeated the grammar nazi I shall tackle your post which is lacking. So you think MS might cancel VGSOH because they canceled mythica? Well your thought process is wrong because you simply dont know what your talking about. MS has been very frugal about what team they would be willing to work with to create the best mmorpg. MS wants the BEST. By god after that whole Turbine fiasco they should be cautious. Games like Mythica and True Fantasy Online simply are not good enough for MS. Of course when they had a chance to work with brad they jumped on it. For some of the old guard, a lot of us felt WoW was the closest game, this in large part due to how bad EQ2 was. So a lot of us put in the time and the work and to find out that WoW has the worst community ever. Sure me being one of them, I am at fault. I should have known since I played blizz games that the Battle.net community would not be able to function in a mmo. So yeah, I sure as hell dont wana see you people in vanguard. I left WoW to get far away from you people. I dont want to see the various interesting conversations that go on in WoW. You know? The OMFGBBQ l00k at meh new uber weapon or you fucken n00b, ill rape your mom! LOL! or OMFG n00b! Rick James OWNS Chuck Norris..N00b! Serious, stay in your shit and leave us alone. I have a feeling that the WoWers will invade just to grief us. So yeah, I guess im an elitist. Stay in wow and leave us the fuck alone.
Thank you so very much for proving my point EXACLY. You, being the stereotypical elitist I am referring to, conveniently glossed over the fact that I am not your typical WoW prepubecent n00b haXX0r ninja. I even stated several times that I am posting here because I found WoW lacking and am very interested in what Vanguard has to offer. No need to read into that though, right? Just lable me as another WoW asshat and tell me to leave your game the hell alone.
My whole point about cancellation in my last paragraph also shows just how well you bothered to read my whole post. I was not stating that Vanguard would be cancelled, but that it might have been IF WOW HAD NEVER BEEN. Before WoW came along, MMOs were being seen as more and more of a risky investment. However, I'll stop right there because I don't expect you to have read this far.
Once again, thank you for posting. You more than adequately provided an example of exactly what I was talking about.
Well. Its time for me to chime in I guess. First off I dont know why you need to comment on someones writing style? Ah, oh it hurts meh eyes omg mommy!? There was more insight and knowledge in that one post then you probably would ever have to contribute ok now that I have slayed and defeated the grammar nazi I shall tackle your post which is lacking. So you think MS might cancel VGSOH because they canceled mythica? Well your thought process is wrong because you simply dont know what your talking about. MS has been very frugal about what team they would be willing to work with to create the best mmorpg. MS wants the BEST. By god after that whole Turbine fiasco they should be cautious. Games like Mythica and True Fantasy Online simply are not good enough for MS. Of course when they had a chance to work with brad they jumped on it. For some of the old guard, a lot of us felt WoW was the closest game, this in large part due to how bad EQ2 was. So a lot of us put in the time and the work and to find out that WoW has the worst community ever. Sure me being one of them, I am at fault. I should have known since I played blizz games that the Battle.net community would not be able to function in a mmo. So yeah, I sure as hell dont wana see you people in vanguard. I left WoW to get far away from you people. I dont want to see the various interesting conversations that go on in WoW. You know? The OMFGBBQ l00k at meh new uber weapon or you fucken n00b, ill rape your mom! LOL! or OMFG n00b! Rick James OWNS Chuck Norris..N00b! Serious, stay in your shit and leave us alone. I have a feeling that the WoWers will invade just to grief us. So yeah, I guess im an elitist. Stay in wow and leave us the fuck alone.
Thank you so very much for proving my point EXACLY. You, being the stereotypical elitist I am referring to, conveniently glossed over the fact that I am not your typical WoW prepubecent n00b haXX0r ninja. I even stated several times that I am posting here because I found WoW lacking and am very interested in what Vanguard has to offer. No need to read into that though, right? Just lable me as another WoW asshat and tell me to leave your game the hell alone.
My whole point about cancellation in my last paragraph also shows just how well you bothered to read my whole post. I was not stating that Vanguard would be cancelled, but that it might have been IF WOW HAD NEVER BEEN. Before WoW came along, MMOs were being seen as more and more of a risky investment. However, I'll stop right there because I don't expect you to have read this far.
Once again, thank you for posting. You more than adequately provided an example of exactly what I was talking about.
And I am stating that Vanguard would not have been cancelled regardless of the "WoW Factor" that you feel the need to bring up. WoW has nothing at all to do with Vanguard, N O T H I N G. before wow, the mmo genre made up about 3% of the gaming pie... 3%... thats a joke. I mean, its 3%... do you u understand how insignificant the mmo genre is to the gaming world? Of course MS sees this, they see an untapped market. If Sigil does a good job who knows, we could see sigil make a shadow run mmo. (Dont quote me on that lol). Bottom line, the mmo genre has been a bottom feeder since EQ. All the games but maybe DAOC and FFXI have been total and complete utter shit. EQOA was better then Ever Quest 2 for Christs sake.
I am curious, what little you know about me would draw you to the conclusion that you would label me an elitist? I simply stated that the vanguard community wants nothing to do with Battle.net/WoW and there is nothing wrong with that, thats what the vast amount of us believe and if you cant deal with that then stay in WoW. You, see your either a child or a moron (or both). I can say this because you display characteristics in your writing and thinking that prove this. Am I harsh? Yeah, but ive been burnt so badly by WoW that frankly, I will not tolerate your ilk fucking up a community and a game before its even launched. Your like the people who bitched and moaned when the summoner in VG was canceled. We go from 10k forum users to over 40k in a blink of an eye . Do the math.
Stereotyping a community or a player base without even knowing who they are. Fact, the EQ community even post PoP is the best mmo community EVER. I had 3 toons on 3 servers and I loved the community....
And ftr, I am CORE GAMER, not a power gamer, not an elitist so STFU with your useless banter.
Wow talk about walking right into that one. Darquenblade posts it, and is proven right the next post. I want everyone to carefully read the posts from both people, and tell me which one sounds like the worst part of the WoW community: Baldrain who's posts are loaded with intelligent sounding words like "fuck", "shit", "Christ's sake" and the classic "STFU", or Darquenblade who simply makes a point and waits 5 minutes to have his point proven correct.
Then you have the fact that Baldrain says he is an elitiest, then he asks how anyone can think he's an eliteist . Then, while using these colorful words, claims Darquen writes like a child.
Baldrain if I were you, I'd take my own advice and "STFU", every time you post it just further proves Darquen correct
Originally posted by darquenblade Before you go telling the unwashed masses to take psychology classes, you should take an English class to remind yourself that paragraphs are beneficial. That was hard on the eyes. That being said though, I do agree with the bulk of what you said. However, I'm still sticking to what I said about Vanguard's community. I'm not saying that everyone is an elitist jerk, but many are. You point to the bad apples as the WoW newbies who are joining the forums. There are some asshats in that bunch to be sure, but mostly what they get is a "get the hell out of here, this game isn't for you" response from the community, even if they are interested in Vanguard's game mechanics. Many times the flaming occurs not because the WoWers come in demanding Vanguard change X features, but because the person is looked down upon simply because they played WoW and enjoyed it. I'm really into the ideas behind this game, and will probably dive in at release, but I am just so sick of being seen as not 'worthy' for this game simply because I didn't play old school EQ back in the day. So many of these Vanguard forumites seem to think that the newcomers to the genre have no idea how to really play an MMO (and here comes the annoying part) and because of that shouldn't even bother looking at Vanguard. This is primarily what I mean when I say they are elitist. "You are not one of us (the old guard), so go away." Even Brad McQuaid himself has made posts on the subject that the Vanguard community should try to take an INclusionary approach to potential new players, and not an EXclusionary one. One more thing I would like to add. WoW might be the simpleton's MMO (it is simple, which is why I don't play it any more), but one must realize that without it, Vanguard might have been scrapped by now. Microsoft showed the world that they were not afraid to cancel an MMO by sacking Mythica in early 2004. Now if WoW had not become the success that it is, MS might have done the same thing to Vanguard eventually (of course, there's pretty much no fear of that now). Well, that's all I have to say. Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you.
No Darq I will not flame you. i thank you for the input, however I was not writing to achieve anything else but my point so Baldrian, I think Darq was right here. I could have used better sentence structure (although the paragraphs seem organized enough) But I posted my apologies to that at the end of my post ;P. I was pretty tired so I just tried to rush it.
And with my suggestion about the psychology classes, i was not trying to belittle anyone or use it as an insult, which is why i had so much explination of why i consider it benificial. The fact that knowing how the human mind works will lead to better understanding of what makes a good game was all i was trying to get accross.
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As for the bad apples being the WoW newbs: I didnt specifically point at anyone. I just think it is true in most developing games that the early community is made up of those truly genuinely interested in these games(in their mechanics, the industry, and the dev process). The people mature enough to follow a game so far from its release are the early community. Now thats not to say that there were no bad apples back then or that all the new arrivals are bad apples... just that the overall maturity of the community is dropping.
And yeah Baldrian I too had a brief play of WoW just to have an informed opinion on it, and I too came to the conclusion that the game is no where near worthy of its hype. I got to level 30-some and could no longer stand it, and though I wanted to see its end game, I just couldnt stick through its awfulness.
Darq I do not agree that Vanguard would have been scraped unless it was not meeting Microsofts expectations and schedule (which for vanguard is very loose). I think this is the ONLY reason why Microsoft scraped mythica. It didnt seem like it was moving forward at all
Anyway, Baldrian, you guys should probably not be fighting because if you look at it you both hold close opinions on vanguard and the rest are just technicalities. And i really dont see what was SOO offensive in Darq's post that you indeed have to flam him (even though he specifically asked for it ;P "Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you." )
Comments
[quote]Originally posted by Etcarr Well, I do NOT agree that instancing is a bad thing. IF a game was created with no instancing, the servers would need to be very localized so that players from +6 timezones do not get an unfair advantage to the game content. We learned in EQ1 that it is simply a bad design when players with a timezone advantage are able to have more fun and see more game content than other players.
Thirdly... if the forums over at www.vanguardsoh.com are any indication of the type of players that this game will attract, count me out. I am not a power gamer with no life outside of the game. The Vanguard message forums are full of hard core gamers... and there is no way I want to get sucked into a compitition with hard core gamers. I learned my lesson with EQ1. No thanks, not making that mistake again.
[/b][/quote]
so.. you care about seeing content and not having to compete agaisnt hardcore guilds, but you don't want to be a hardcore gamer? Gl with that one..
Current game played:
World of warcraft
Lvl 60 priest Al'Akir
Lvl 60 warrior Al'Akir
Lvl 60 rouge Al'Akir
Instancing, is it really needed? Sure, it's a nice gimmick at times to avoid dungeons from getting too crowded, but wouldn't it be true that if the world was big enough with enough good dungeons to explore then it wouldn't be an issue.
And please keep in the long travel time. IMO opinion it adds to the immersiveness of the game and provides flavor, letting players like me feel like we're in that alternate world and not just some digitally concocted pseudo-reality. Make players hump it out across dark territories in early levels and sit through those long ass boat rides to new continents. Hearthstones which give insta-teleports from danger areas and split second travel between continents and other areas = bad and boring.
what is the point of having a persistant world if all you do is camp instances??
using world of warcraft as a good example of instancing is horrid. i loved wow but man... there was all this content, open pvp, cities to raid, all that stuff you love in a good mmorpg but....
if your sitting there farming bg instances (usually the same one over and over again) or doing the high end raiding instances, why even have a world there anymore? you dont get to see it unless you are traveling to go to another instance. for this reason after making almost 4 lvl 60 toons i quit the game
to me playing a mmorpg means playing in a persistant world with other players, not farming instances....if i wanted that i would play guild wars or d2.
so obviously the point im trying to make is instances takes away from the feel of a persistant world and it takes away from the community. vanguard will be fine without instances, lets just hope the rest of the game turns out well
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Thank god you have WoW then. Instancing takes away from the community as players are secluded off in their private dungeon parlor instead of "interacting" like we should be. Why should 17 different groups all have their own private copy of a dungeon? I want to play in a place that I can enter and leave and it still exists without me being there. not created on my group entering like I'm playing some interactive novel: I want to be in the novel.
A pervasive world should not have instances, it should be one big world that everyone plays in. This is what an MMORPG is.
If all you do, yes. Also, they will have to address the serious network issues that arise with instanced dungeons. However, it can be done and in a fun manner if the developers know what they are doing.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
"Instanced dungeons are to me, the true epiphany of what fantasy mmorpgs should be."
LOL Well you should love Dugeons and Dragons online then.
a lot of games use instancing and it can be done in many different ways.
you got the guildwars and DDO style, and you have the EQ2 style. EQ2 instancing has respawning mobs while DDO doesnt. in DDO and GW the instance is generated for your party, in EQ2 its generated per x number of players to reduce congestion.
I think instancing is a good thing if its used in a smart way. However, I dont like GW or DDO mainly because it feels like your just stepping through "doors". WoW had some instancing and it made sense for the most part. They just reserved it for larger quests, elites etc. I still think they could have done more with it though.
as far as the forums go, the worst time to visit a game forum is right before its release during beta testing. Everyone thinks that their forum post count is the ticket to getting into beta and you will see countless arguements and plain noise on the forums all the way until the NDA is lifted. Everyone playing developer "we need this" "we need" ..so ya just dont get involved with the forums because with all the noise and no real discussions on the actual game (just other players ideas) its not worth it.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I have been way way way to quiet, just silently reading, but the last few posts finnally knocked me into typing some stuffzors, Well bro if your trying to find a game with instances no competition of hardcore gamers, and not looking for a challenge, just stick with WoW, I for one am GLAD your passing this game up, and for another thing I wouldnt want people like you playign my beloved game here.
With that being said, heres coems my rant.
Well bud, theres nothing that i hate more than hearing someone say somehting is TOO HARD, or TOO MUCH COMPETITION in a game. I mean thats what makes the game ENJOYABLE, and lets you rmemeber why you play it, not to be the BEST just to have fun man. Cause lord knows you cant beat the guy that doesnt have a girlfriend no job and lives on welfare his whole life, you cant beat that guy. But still doesnt mean you cant have fun just playing the game.
I mean seriously, why dont you play some of those games that little kids play for school, umm Leapfrog i think their called, because its too easy and no challenge. Well alot of MMOS are like Leapfrog to me, its to easy, and you know how its gonna end up. But this game has spark, their offering CONTENT! NOT Thousands of redundant Quests. CONTENT, theres a big difference between kill x amount of jer jer beans and return to x, and travel from point a to point b making it alive, and fighting through lots of mobs let alone Other players. maybe even getting lost in the landscape. Thats content. But hell if your happy camping instances, and sitting around traveling from instance to instance thats cool, have fun, not my kind of game. I like to play with other PEOPLE in a MASSIVE MULITPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME, but hell that maybe just us. I mean go play DDO if you want what your looking for, im sure they could use more people like you, since thats all that game is. Go Fan Boi there dont Trash our perfection of a game.
If that is any indication of what the game community will be like then I dont want to have anything to do with it.
Kai
Its true and I have gotten several of the Vanguard members banned here for the same posts they make there to ANY critism of their crappy game.
If you have any questions please ask. I have moved on to WoW from eq and no longer have any desire to play a dead game. Thank you. (posted by another selling his account in EQ1)
If that is any indication of what the game community will be like then I dont want to have anything to do with it.
Kai
Its true and I have gotten several of the Vanguard members banned here for the same posts they make there to ANY critism of their crappy game.
I disagree "elitist lifers" should be "elitist NO lifers" the rest is spot on Kai and Sebbonx.
umm i hate to break it to ya but even wow is a "crappy unpopular raid garbage" game. I'm not bashing wow don't get me wrong but that statement is way off...
you complain about vanguards community?......have you not seen wow's? it is the worst i have seen by far.
i am getting sick of you wow fans pretending like every other game is "puny" because it doesn't sell 5 million copies. just like the other idiot (I'm not saying any names) that thinks vanguard will "flop" because it don't sell 5 million copies like wow did.
a game does not need to sell 5 million copies to be successful, good for wow it pulled it off but every other game that has ever been released hasn't sold anywhere near that...so does that mean they are all "puny" or a "flop"?
the only argument you people ever have is "wow sold 5 million copies so it must be the best!" and dread the thought of anyone wanting to play any other game besides wow.
there is enough people playing wow right now, why do you fear other games so much? why do you even care? why do you even go to the vanguard boards if your just going to play wow anyways? makes no sense to me, anyways I'm out of here....going to go "zerg another mob and call it skill".....in wow!
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Think I'll chime in a bit here...
I've been quietly following Vanguard for quite some time, and the design philosophy Brad, Jeff and the Sigil crew have regarding this game I grow more and more interested in. I should also note that I'm relatively new to this genre, having started with WoW and never having played the original EQ. However, there are many aspects to this game that are very appealing to even a newbie to the MMO world like myself (such as more involved combat, no instancing (better community), and an overall longer lasting game).
That being said though, whoever said the Vanguard forum community is elitist is dead on. They seem to be downright hostile to anyone who doesn't have a background stemming from EQLive, and if you've played and enjoyed WoW, you're basically a laughing stock.
Basically, while the game itself is interesting to me, I'm a little wary of what the in-game communtity will turn into. If the forums are any indication...yeesh.
I think that some of that elitism comes out of frustration with the trend toward "dumbing down" games. Some people worked very hard for their achievements in EQ1, and have been looking for a new experience, but not an easier one, only to find other games failing to deliver that.
If you're a real old timer from EQLive, you remember starting the game with no cash and not even a spare bag, having to travel over long distances on foot or by boat (which meant waiting for the boat to come, and then actually riding it through the next zone-- not a matter of just loading to your destination), harsh death penalties, and always the possibility of not being able to get back to your corpse. And for some of us, those were the FUN parts of the game... So, yeah, those people can be a little snobby when they look at games that don't offer those sorts of challenges to advancement. I don't agree with that attitude, but I do understand it, having "been there and done that", as it were.
In my experience, the tone on the forums is usually a bazillion times worse than in game, with most games. The in-game community should be fairly helpful and excited about checking out all the stuff they haven't seen or done before. But, as always, there will be a few dorks.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
you gatta remember bro, the forum ppl are hardcore...it is not going to make up the community as a whole. and because it is not a pvp geared game that will actually discourage most "eliteist" type dudes IMO.
besides....if you can put up with wow's bnet type community, trust me.... you can put up with anything!
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Just dont play vanguard, i dont care. You mean nothing!
LoL with that being said, yes this is more of an elitiest game as of right now, only cause geeks are the only ones posting on forums of a game, that isnt even out yet, and not going to be out for months.
I mean, what did you expect casuals to be stalking these forums? Pffffft.
Nah hardcore gamers roam these halls, and get used to it, cause no matter how elite you think you are, theres always someone better.
Just dont play vanguard go ahead, take a pass on it. Your the one that will be missing out, not me.
oh and also i love receivign these -p
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yeah, i suck. LoL
I'll just say this.
If you can't even handle VG's community, then you're in for a mighty rude awakening.
Dunadurium hates noobs
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I have come to the conclusion reading many of these ridiculous posts that ignorance really is bliss at least right up until the very instant you realize that you have, indeed, been ignorant. If some of you get to that point of revelation and realization, think of this post, however dont despair for only after that point will there be hope of understanding...
If you are still in high school I highly recommend taking a psychology course next semester (or as soon as possible) as it may show you the basic human tendencies that lead to self-accomplishment and a sense of reward- which is the pivotal feature in mmos. Ever heard the saying there is no good without evil, or gotta take the good with the bad etc etc? The concept here (which is fundamentally a basic fact of life) is that if you live without fluctuation, with no variation then you have nothing to compare, therefore you cannot say what is good or what is bad. A very stupid example though, is if you were borne in hell (lol, ok lets say its a metaphor ;P) and thats all you knew throughout your life then the days it wasnt so hot down there would be good days for you, but for someone borne in heaven that same good day to you may be the worst day in their lives. This is true in MMOs in the form that if for example, you get everything handed to you then the reward you feel isnt so great because although the reward may be good, you really have no bad(in mmos bad: struggle, difficulty, time, energy, effort) to compare it too and so the reward cannot be significant or meaningful. It is just how we, as humans, think. We compare and contrast things in our lives to evaluate and examine them. In a game, and even more so in a SOCIAL game, these things are very important factors that determine the players enjoyment of a game. We contrast the effort with the reward and, the higher the effort to acquire the reward, the more valued and appreciated a reward becomes. Also by reward I dont just mean in the sense that most people talk about it in these forums (such as ubber items, and gold coins) but a reward may be the combat system. The more involvement in combat and the more difficult combat is, requiring logical thinking and skill, the more you will feel accomplishment after each battle. The same goes for everything else. If an MMO has an in-game map and you travel to a destination for the first time, what do you feel? Maybe a faint sense of unfamiliarity or marvel at the graphics if the environment is nice but that feeling is fleeting at best. Whereas a game with no ingame map where you need to ask around different players for direction and manually find your way there,maybe getting lost or killed along the way, provides a much different sensation. If the destination is also graphically nice then the feeling maybe approaching a sort of ecstatic overwhelming joy of accomplishing something truly difficult. (ps the new generation gamer who has not experienced real travel may not understand how travel can feel like that but trust us old timers, it most certainly can)
I think a main problem behind why so many people are screaming at us like we were anti-Semitists operating the gas chamber, is because it is naturally assumed that the feeling or reward is directly connected with the ubber item of 1337 firyness when in reality it is a direct correlation with the risk/difficulty/strain associated with getting it. This issue ties in directly with the death penalty debate also. If the death penalty really does hurt then dying will mean something to people and a nice corpse run will be that much better apon completion ;P. furthermore the whole world will feel like a much more dangerous place and knowing that loss in combat will really impact you will make the world that much more exciting and subsequently every other achievement be it a quest or traveling to new exotic location will be that much more rewarding. More rewarding because there will always be that chance of screwing up and dying. Anyway im sure most of you knew this but it seems many kiddies just want the end reward and never consider what makes the reward just that.
So just remember: there is no good without the bad, there is no (real)accomplishment without risk.
As to the people spouting off the eliteness of the sigil forum members, I would like to say that there are always a few rotten apples in a large enough bunch (especially once theyve sat in the sun for a while
) However for the most part the community is a very mature and intelligent group. Just because a lot of people dont know how to hold an intelligent conversation does not give them the right to write off the community as elitist, hardcore, minority. Infact more than a few members there have been around the block more than some of you combined. Many hold their roots from way back in early D&D days or from early MUDS, and a bunch from the early community have recently gotten positions at Sigil which just shows that they are highly knowledgeable in making and playing MMOs. I admit though that a recent shift is evident as newer arrivals jump on the band wagon and sort of corrupt the boards with their immaturity. BTW I dont mean to discriminate against age but it is generally true that the older you get the wiser and more accurate your views on life gets.
Sorry for the rant and incoherent rambling but its late and im tired and I just had to post on this. But yeah definitely do a psychology course if you dont understand what makes a game fun. Most of these new game design schools incorporate a small form of it now-a-days dont they? I think every MMO designer should have completed psychology education of some sort to make a truly fun next gen game.
~Dunadurium"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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I'm not a "power gamer or a hardcore gamer" however I enjoy a game that's got a since of reward for the amount of risk you take. Vanguard has promised a more mature way of gameplay, one comparible to EQ1. Not one that gives you quests, armor, rewards on a silver platter, WoW's a good example of this... you can die 500 times and the only thing you lose is some armor durability which you can repair so you esentially lose nothing. If you want quick reward and minimal time needed to get those rewards then Vanguard isn't for you. There are games for all sorts of people.
As for instancing, it ruins a community... just look at Guildwars community... oh wait... what community?? There isn't one there cause every thing is instanced. WoW's run by anti-social kids so there's hardly any community there and having the dungeons all instanced also doesn't help what little community it has. Community is what EQ1 had back when the bazaar consisted of hanging around the East Common Tunnels, it consisted of helping one another out with the idea of just helping one another not grouping up to complete a quest for yourself. It consided of having to depend on your friends to get your body back. It added a since of maturity to the game, when you saw a shout that said "Can someone help me find my body please" You felt like you should help out or answer his shout cause you've been where he's been, and how much it sucked to not only lose XP but lose your body as well.
As for your timezone issue, perhaps you should pick a server that was in or closest to your timezone. If your trying to go after mobs that were camped alot then you sound like more of a hardcore gamer then you let on my friend.
I'm so tired of reading about people like you that don't want to spend "alot" of time playing a game... if that's the case go play WoW or a console game that has a pause button. Leave the people that enjoyed EQ1 to Vanguard and simply leave quietly.
Before you go telling the unwashed masses to take psychology classes, you should take an English class to remind yourself that paragraphs are beneficial. That was hard on the eyes.
That being said though, I do agree with the bulk of what you said. However, I'm still sticking to what I said about Vanguard's community. I'm not saying that everyone is an elitist jerk, but many are. You point to the bad apples as the WoW newbies who are joining the forums. There are some asshats in that bunch to be sure, but mostly what they get is a "get the hell out of here, this game isn't for you" response from the community, even if they are interested in Vanguard's game mechanics. Many times the flaming occurs not because the WoWers come in demanding Vanguard change X features, but because the person is looked down upon simply because they played WoW and enjoyed it.
I'm really into the ideas behind this game, and will probably dive in at release, but I am just so sick of being seen as not 'worthy' for this game simply because I didn't play old school EQ back in the day. So many of these Vanguard forumites seem to think that the newcomers to the genre have no idea how to really play an MMO (and here comes the annoying part) and because of that shouldn't even bother looking at Vanguard. This is primarily what I mean when I say they are elitist. "You are not one of us (the old guard), so go away." Even Brad McQuaid himself has made posts on the subject that the Vanguard community should try to take an INclusionary approach to potential new players, and not an EXclusionary one.
One more thing I would like to add. WoW might be the simpleton's MMO (it is simple, which is why I don't play it any more), but one must realize that without it, Vanguard might have been scrapped by now. Microsoft showed the world that they were not afraid to cancel an MMO by sacking Mythica in early 2004. Now if WoW had not become the success that it is, MS might have done the same thing to Vanguard eventually (of course, there's pretty much no fear of that now).
Well, that's all I have to say. Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you.
Before you go telling the unwashed masses to take psychology classes, you should take an English class to remind yourself that paragraphs are beneficial. That was hard on the eyes.
That being said though, I do agree with the bulk of what you said. However, I'm still sticking to what I said about Vanguard's community. I'm not saying that everyone is an elitist jerk, but many are. You point to the bad apples as the WoW newbies who are joining the forums. There are some asshats in that bunch to be sure, but mostly what they get is a "get the hell out of here, this game isn't for you" response from the community, even if they are interested in Vanguard's game mechanics. Many times the flaming occurs not because the WoWers come in demanding Vanguard change X features, but because the person is looked down upon simply because they played WoW and enjoyed it.
I'm really into the ideas behind this game, and will probably dive in at release, but I am just so sick of being seen as not 'worthy' for this game simply because I didn't play old school EQ back in the day. So many of these Vanguard forumites seem to think that the newcomers to the genre have no idea how to really play an MMO (and here comes the annoying part) and because of that shouldn't even bother looking at Vanguard. This is primarily what I mean when I say they are elitist. "You are not one of us (the old guard), so go away." Even Brad McQuaid himself has made posts on the subject that the Vanguard community should try to take an INclusionary approach to potential new players, and not an EXclusionary one.
One more thing I would like to add. WoW might be the simpleton's MMO (it is simple, which is why I don't play it any more), but one must realize that without it, Vanguard might have been scrapped by now. Microsoft showed the world that they were not afraid to cancel an MMO by sacking Mythica in early 2004. Now if WoW had not become the success that it is, MS might have done the same thing to Vanguard eventually (of course, there's pretty much no fear of that now).
Well, that's all I have to say. Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you.
Well. Its time for me to chime in I guess. First off I dont know why you need to comment on someones writing style? Ah, oh it hurts meh eyes omg mommy!? There was more insight and knowledge in that one post then you probably would ever have to contribute ok now that I have slayed and defeated the grammar nazi I shall tackle your post which is lacking.
So you think MS might cancel VGSOH because they canceled mythica? Well your thought process is wrong because you simply dont know what your talking about. MS has been very frugal about what team they would be willing to work with to create the best mmorpg. MS wants the BEST. By god after that whole Turbine fiasco they should be cautious. Games like Mythica and True Fantasy Online simply are not good enough for MS. Of course when they had a chance to work with brad they jumped on it.
For some of the old guard, a lot of us felt WoW was the closest game, this in large part due to how bad EQ2 was. So a lot of us put in the time and the work and to find out that WoW has the worst community ever. Sure me being one of them, I am at fault. I should have known since I played blizz games that the Battle.net community would not be able to function in a mmo. So yeah, I sure as hell dont wana see you people in vanguard. I left WoW to get far away from you people. I dont want to see the various interesting conversations that go on in WoW. You know? The OMFGBBQ l00k at meh new uber weapon or you fucken n00b, ill rape your mom! LOL! or OMFG n00b! Rick James OWNS Chuck Norris..N00b! Serious, stay in your shit and leave us alone. I have a feeling that the WoWers will invade just to grief us. So yeah, I guess im an elitist. Stay in wow and leave us the fuck alone.
Thank you so very much for proving my point EXACLY. You, being the stereotypical elitist I am referring to, conveniently glossed over the fact that I am not your typical WoW prepubecent n00b haXX0r ninja. I even stated several times that I am posting here because I found WoW lacking and am very interested in what Vanguard has to offer. No need to read into that though, right? Just lable me as another WoW asshat and tell me to leave your game the hell alone.
My whole point about cancellation in my last paragraph also shows just how well you bothered to read my whole post. I was not stating that Vanguard would be cancelled, but that it might have been IF WOW HAD NEVER BEEN. Before WoW came along, MMOs were being seen as more and more of a risky investment. However, I'll stop right there because I don't expect you to have read this far.
Once again, thank you for posting. You more than adequately provided an example of exactly what I was talking about.
Thank you so very much for proving my point EXACLY. You, being the stereotypical elitist I am referring to, conveniently glossed over the fact that I am not your typical WoW prepubecent n00b haXX0r ninja. I even stated several times that I am posting here because I found WoW lacking and am very interested in what Vanguard has to offer. No need to read into that though, right? Just lable me as another WoW asshat and tell me to leave your game the hell alone.
My whole point about cancellation in my last paragraph also shows just how well you bothered to read my whole post. I was not stating that Vanguard would be cancelled, but that it might have been IF WOW HAD NEVER BEEN. Before WoW came along, MMOs were being seen as more and more of a risky investment. However, I'll stop right there because I don't expect you to have read this far.
Once again, thank you for posting. You more than adequately provided an example of exactly what I was talking about.
And I am stating that Vanguard would not have been cancelled regardless of the "WoW Factor" that you feel the need to bring up. WoW has nothing at all to do with Vanguard, N O T H I N G. before wow, the mmo genre made up about 3% of the gaming pie... 3%... thats a joke. I mean, its 3%... do you u understand how insignificant the mmo genre is to the gaming world? Of course MS sees this, they see an untapped market. If Sigil does a good job who knows, we could see sigil make a shadow run mmo. (Dont quote me on that lol). Bottom line, the mmo genre has been a bottom feeder since EQ. All the games but maybe DAOC and FFXI have been total and complete utter shit. EQOA was better then Ever Quest 2 for Christs sake.
I am curious, what little you know about me would draw you to the conclusion that you would label me an elitist? I simply stated that the vanguard community wants nothing to do with Battle.net/WoW and there is nothing wrong with that, thats what the vast amount of us believe and if you cant deal with that then stay in WoW. You, see your either a child or a moron (or both). I can say this because you display characteristics in your writing and thinking that prove this. Am I harsh? Yeah, but ive been burnt so badly by WoW that frankly, I will not tolerate your ilk fucking up a community and a game before its even launched. Your like the people who bitched and moaned when the summoner in VG was canceled. We go from 10k forum users to over 40k in a blink of an eye . Do the math.
Stereotyping a community or a player base without even knowing who they are. Fact, the EQ community even post PoP is the best mmo community EVER. I had 3 toons on 3 servers and I loved the community....
And ftr, I am CORE GAMER, not a power gamer, not an elitist so STFU with your useless banter.
No Darq I will not flame you. i thank you for the input, however I was not writing to achieve anything else but my point so Baldrian, I think Darq was right here. I could have used better sentence structure (although the paragraphs seem organized enough) But I posted my apologies to that at the end of my post ;P. I was pretty tired so I just tried to rush it.
And with my suggestion about the psychology classes, i was not trying to belittle anyone or use it as an insult, which is why i had so much explination of why i consider it benificial. The fact that knowing how the human mind works will lead to better understanding of what makes a good game was all i was trying to get accross.
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As for the bad apples being the WoW newbs: I didnt specifically point at anyone. I just think it is true in most developing games that the early community is made up of those truly genuinely interested in these games(in their mechanics, the industry, and the dev process). The people mature enough to follow a game so far from its release are the early community. Now thats not to say that there were no bad apples back then or that all the new arrivals are bad apples... just that the overall maturity of the community is dropping.
And yeah Baldrian I too had a brief play of WoW just to have an informed opinion on it, and I too came to the conclusion that the game is no where near worthy of its hype. I got to level 30-some and could no longer stand it, and though I wanted to see its end game, I just couldnt stick through its awfulness.
Darq I do not agree that Vanguard would have been scraped unless it was not meeting Microsofts expectations and schedule (which for vanguard is very loose). I think this is the ONLY reason why Microsoft scraped mythica. It didnt seem like it was moving forward at all
Anyway, Baldrian, you guys should probably not be fighting because if you look at it you both hold close opinions on vanguard and the rest are just technicalities. And i really dont see what was SOO offensive in Darq's post that you indeed have to flam him (even though he specifically asked for it ;P "Please proceed to flame my ass into oblivion. Thank you." )
~Dunadurium"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
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