Originally posted by Aeonblades P2P Subscription. It's the best way to avoid 75% of MMO asshats.
Or set it up for failure. It's not viable, the proof is in the amount of failures we've seen. It's an unnecessary barrier to entry.
All that proves is that if your going with a sub you need to have your ducks in a row come launch, these failiers you mention didnt fail because of the pricing model they failed because the games weren't worth the pricing model, if the procing model was to blame those games would have failed right out the gate rather than sell well and not retain
Personally I don't really care which payment method TESO ends up with. I think WoWs method works for WoW, it could work for other games such as TESO...but who knows. I doubt our votes will make much of a difference anyway.
B2P with purely cosmetic cash shop or no cash shop at all. It is possible, Starcraft 2 has been doing this for almost 3 years now, lots of sells, ok, but that is the actual point: Good game implies good sells, so a cash shop isn´t necessary.
B2P with purely cosmetic cash shop or no cash shop at all. It is possible, Starcraft 2 has been doing this for almost 3 years now, lots of sells, ok, but that is the actual point: Good game implies good sells, so a cash shop isn´t necessary.
How do you compare SC2 with ESO, different genre no?
subscription per month is like a miserable stat to me, subscription per major update sounds awesome ..!
go look GW2 you hate it or you like its B2P and every month it has updates and events, i have never seen that in other subbed based games ... how you prefer this sub system i have no idea, probably you belong to a previous era of the world were you had money to throw them in the toilet ...
I don't know why people even want to pay subs anymore, isn't it only WoW and Eve that actually have subs nowdays?
B2P is the way forward, the game should initially be worth the fee to purchase (ie Huge) and then have a cosmetic cash shop (dyes, cosmetic gear, mounts, pets etc) and updates/expansions should be purchased (as long as they are large, and not just small patches.)
In other words, the way The Secret World has gone.
I think this payment model is good for a few reasons.
1.) The developers make most (if not all) of the budget of the game back when the boxes initially sell.
2.) You can play whenever you want, you've bought the game, you should be able to play it whenever, not just rent it when you pay a sub etc.
3.) The company is still making money from the cosmetic shop consistently.
4.) The developers are working harder and faster to release decent updates/expansions, decent because players won't buy crappy ones, and faster because the company wants the money. (monthly preferably.)
5.) The player has full control over what they are spending their money on after they've initially purchased the game.
I don't know why people even want to pay subs anymore, isn't it only WoW and Eve that actually have subs nowdays?
B2P is the way forward, the game should initially be worth the fee to purchase (ie Huge) and then have a cosmetic cash shop (dyes, cosmetic gear, mounts, pets etc) and updates/expansions should be purchased (as long as they are large, and not just small patches.)
In other words, the way The Secret World has gone.
I think this payment model is good for a few reasons.
1.) The developers make most (if not all) of the budget of the game back when the boxes initially sell.
2.) You can play whenever you want, you've bought the game, you should be able to play it whenever, not just rent it when you pay a sub etc.
3.) The company is still making money from the cosmetic shop consistently.
4.) The developers are working harder and faster to release decent updates/expansions, decent because players won't buy crappy ones, and faster because the company wants the money. (monthly preferably.)
5.) The player has full control over what they are spending their money on after they've initially purchased the game.
My two cents anyway.
I think most logical consumers and modern investors agree.
The thing is tho' TESO is designed around trying to recreate the WoW success story. They're going to try to launch with a sub because it's a premium name. They'll declare success for three months or so. Everyone will say it's a drag within 6 months, and then it'll eventually become some hybrid of the model you've outlined within a year.
If they break this habit I'll be truly shocked. It's like ZeniMax is going by the 2008 playbook pretty hardcore.
B2P with purely cosmetic cash shop or no cash shop at all. It is possible, Starcraft 2 has been doing this for almost 3 years now, lots of sells, ok, but that is the actual point: Good game implies good sells, so a cash shop isn´t necessary.
How do you compare SC2 with ESO, different genre no?
It is a different genre, but SC2 has to mantain various servers 24/7 like any other MMORPG, so I´m guessing the expenses would be the same. True thing is Blizzard gets money from tournaments and stuff if I am not mistaken, but still I think without the money they get from the tournaments they would still make profit.
Originally posted by Aeonblades P2P Subscription. It's the best way to avoid 75% of MMO asshats.
Have you played wow?
Can someone explain why exactly it's a given that WoW has a shit community?
The thing with WoW is that so many people play it your bound to find more douches then normal. But that also means your more likely to find people you do like due to the probabilities of that happening being higher. I've quit wow about six times and every time I did go back I found a new guild with decent enough people, sure there's been drama, but I doubt you'd every have that in another game.
I get the feeling this has more to do with people on here being pissed of with how, 'their', genre of games has gone and, 'WoW has a shit community', is just another stick to beat it with.
As for OP, I hope they go down the P2P option with a trial. £8.99 is not much for a well put together game that has lasting appeal, (which I hope this is), and it's a better deal for a customer anyway for obvious cash shop based reasons.
Regardless of how many players that play the game it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why WoW's playerbase are the worst based on things like" Official T-Shirts with the logo "I Survived Barrens Chat".
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Regardless of how many players that play the game it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why WoW's playerbase are the worst based on things like" Official T-Shirts with the logo "I Survived Barrens Chat".
When that came out (years ago) it was funny and relevant.
I can't grasp how you think that works as an example, but ok.
TSW LTers will vastly disagree. LT subs are retarded as one can never know the future of a game.
I have a TSW LT sub. I am Happy with it still, I get a lot of extras for being a lifetimer.
Funny enough they are talking about giving LT players more things since so many people were whiney Babies. Strangely enough the Lifetimers actually were generally happy with it. you saw a small minority who were unhappy.
Anyways as much as i dont like B2P, So long as WoW is still on the market P2P wont be profitable to anyone else. so i had to go with B2P.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Regardless of how many players that play the game it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why WoW's playerbase are the worst based on things like" Official T-Shirts with the logo "I Survived Barrens Chat".
When that came out (years ago) it was funny and relevant.
I can't grasp how you think that works as an example, but ok.
I can't fathom how you wouldn't think it does.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Sub, for many reasons. The first and foremost being that I cannot stand cash shops. I hate the feeling that I bought this game, but I will never be able to obtain those small things in it. But selfish reasons aside, it will profit Zenimax much more. And with more profit comes more frequent updates, more stable servers, and an overall better experience. I've no problem paying monthly for a game that the devs are likely paying thousands a month to keep running, servers ain't cheap.
As mentioned earlier (This isn't completely true) but at least for awhile, sub based games have a better community. I mean, it took a long time for WoW to go downhill like it is now, I played since launch, and believe it or not, there was a time when the community wasn't half bad. Granted a jerk/elitest from time to time, but those are in every game.
Trying to be objective, and think how ESO would have the best appeal to video gamers from the genre then it would be B2P. The reason for this is bvecuase a lot of the fans of the lore do not pay sub fees, and therefore b2p is what they are accustomed to.
Also another benefit of b2p is developers have to develop content that is suitable for a b2p model. Which means having content that is more repeatable, has strong retention, and each expansion has a lot of content to draw people in. I belive the motivation to develop content better for release and after is better with b2p for developers and even players looking at content to justify their continuation of putting money into a game.
As for the cash shop, as long as it is not pay to win, then it should not be a problem. A cash shop is another means for others to support the devs and also for the devs to make content that people would like which are small extras for customization. I believe if the cash shop is mostly for customization then it would be good for everyone.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
P2P, simply because cash shops for ingame items are a very slippery slope, in any form. About the only way I would agree with a cash shop is if it was strictly to allow newcomers to a game to purchase items that vets had been given as anniversary rewards. This would breath a little more cash into the game and except for the few that would feel "their" loyalty wasn't as valued because someone new could acquire them, albeit for hard cash, most would be happy.
Imo, most P2P companies feel more of an obligation to keep the players happy on a continual basis(ie.ingame gms, account recovery options, etc) instead of like with B2P pointing them to a future expansion or if you're lucky a decent content patch and justifying any problems with a "hey, it's f2p what do you expect?" and for ingame service, don't hold your breath.
Also with B2P most players lose their attachment after the first couple of months simply because they feel they've paid two month's worth of a sub and when the newness wears off and if the game isn't living up to expectations(real, assumed or implied) the players flee, dollars in tow, iow's, it turns into a F2P experience.
F2P otoh tends to attract drifters who seldom care about the game past "winning" it and even less about the other people that play it, driving many of those other players away and leaving a whole subset of gamers disenchanted with mmos and their supporters in general and either become drifters themselves with no attachment, monetary or emotional, to any game or searching out those games who's companies/creators still believe that loyal customers that are willing to pay you regularily for your continued efforts are more valuable than millions of players who are willing to eat your bandwidth as long as they don't have any obligations to the game and most certainly not with their wallets.
When it comes down to it, whether P2P, B2P, F2P, Freemium, Premium or whatever you want to call it, all of the items are virtual, and when you quit playing the game, or it quits you, none of it will survive past the entertainment memories you gathered and hopefully some of the friendships you may have made while playing it. As for value, what's the price of entertainment? How much is your cable bill, movie allowance, opera budget, golf game, etc? None of those are items you get to keep either, they're all just memories, hopefully good ones otherwise you're getting shafted. When I spend my money on entertainment, I like to pay for something I want to see, hear, participate in, or play, not so someone else can play for free.
So i stopped readin at "don't answer as a customer, answer as if you were the owner of the company"
Yea...you do realize how many pre-teens are on this site right? And even then, putting age aside, most adults can't even put themselves realistically in a company owner's shoes like that and make an informed decision. It's why so few are successful company owners and so many are just mere peons.
iv seen alot of people saying B2P means the develpers have to put focus into game play to amintain retention. . . . .WHY
the only module that they have to work for retention instead of new peple is P2P because they want you to keep up your sub any other version and once you have bought the game or all the dhinies in shop they no longer can get anything from you and at this point they dont care about you
so tell me please explain to me why the devs would care about core game play and retention if they already got your cash
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
For all those who want another P2P marvel let me remind you of the last one we had, "May the force be with you". Yeah we saw how well that went didn't we, and please please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's not due to the payment model.
Let me remind you also that over a million people bought the game, fully knowing it came with a subscription fee. The problem wasn't the sub fee, it was that the game wasn't good enough for an mmorpg to warrant a sub fee. It was a B2P game from the start, only Bioware were too arrogant to realize that til it was too late. People will pay a sub fee if they enjoy playing an mmo and want to conitinue to play it.
P2P is dead. Theres not one company (besides Blizzard) that is doing well with that model. The average MMO player is clueless to the workings of how things really are. B2P and F2P are the future.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I don't know why people even want to pay subs anymore, isn't it only WoW and Eve that actually have subs nowdays?
B2P is the way forward, the game should initially be worth the fee to purchase (ie Huge) and then have a cosmetic cash shop (dyes, cosmetic gear, mounts, pets etc) and updates/expansions should be purchased (as long as they are large, and not just small patches.)
In other words, the way The Secret World has gone.
I think this payment model is good for a few reasons.
1.) The developers make most (if not all) of the budget of the game back when the boxes initially sell.
2.) You can play whenever you want, you've bought the game, you should be able to play it whenever, not just rent it when you pay a sub etc.
3.) The company is still making money from the cosmetic shop consistently.
4.) The developers are working harder and faster to release decent updates/expansions, decent because players won't buy crappy ones, and faster because the company wants the money. (monthly preferably.)
5.) The player has full control over what they are spending their money on after they've initially purchased the game.
My two cents anyway.
It's a god awful way to fund a game because essentialy it's a question of economics.
i.e if there's a demand for cosmetic cs stuff what do you produce? More of the same and ignore the other stuff that doesn't make you money, like bug fixes,content gaps etc.
Also they'll make things as absolute, 'must haves', that you need to buy. Lockbox keys are across many games and are resented by most of the playerbase who get the feeling the developers are treating them like an ATM. CO is one of the latest to do this, they have new mounts released with the last patch. You can only get them from a lockbox, (which you have to buy), which has a terrible random chance of dropping them so it's essentially gambling with crap odds.
The problem with many cs is there just far too greedy and will change to drastically depending on profit margins. As a subscriber you have certain rights, your paying for a service and you can tell that company if your not happy. If a game does well then developers will invest to keep you there. As a f2p player if you think somethings wrong you'll either be ignored or banned as they target is the next schumuck with more money then sense.
Secret World is a failed sub game, they've taken this approach to try and generate interest and money. If this doesn't work then they'll change their model again to squeeze more cash out of the remaining players. B2P/F2P always means you have to come up with new ways to make extra money and that makes it far too easy to exploit your players.
Comments
Or set it up for failure. It's not viable, the proof is in the amount of failures we've seen. It's an unnecessary barrier to entry.
All that proves is that if your going with a sub you need to have your ducks in a row come launch, these failiers you mention didnt fail because of the pricing model they failed because the games weren't worth the pricing model, if the procing model was to blame those games would have failed right out the gate rather than sell well and not retain
Personally I don't really care which payment method TESO ends up with. I think WoWs method works for WoW, it could work for other games such as TESO...but who knows. I doubt our votes will make much of a difference anyway.
-b
B2P with purely cosmetic cash shop or no cash shop at all. It is possible, Starcraft 2 has been doing this for almost 3 years now, lots of sells, ok, but that is the actual point: Good game implies good sells, so a cash shop isn´t necessary.
How do you compare SC2 with ESO, different genre no?
subscription per month is like a miserable stat to me, subscription per major update sounds awesome ..!
go look GW2 you hate it or you like its B2P and every month it has updates and events, i have never seen that in other subbed based games ... how you prefer this sub system i have no idea, probably you belong to a previous era of the world were you had money to throw them in the toilet ...
B2P is for me and I wouldn't even consider P2P cos I would rather spend $15 on other game monthly.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
I don't know why people even want to pay subs anymore, isn't it only WoW and Eve that actually have subs nowdays?
B2P is the way forward, the game should initially be worth the fee to purchase (ie Huge) and then have a cosmetic cash shop (dyes, cosmetic gear, mounts, pets etc) and updates/expansions should be purchased (as long as they are large, and not just small patches.)
In other words, the way The Secret World has gone.
I think this payment model is good for a few reasons.
1.) The developers make most (if not all) of the budget of the game back when the boxes initially sell.
2.) You can play whenever you want, you've bought the game, you should be able to play it whenever, not just rent it when you pay a sub etc.
3.) The company is still making money from the cosmetic shop consistently.
4.) The developers are working harder and faster to release decent updates/expansions, decent because players won't buy crappy ones, and faster because the company wants the money. (monthly preferably.)
5.) The player has full control over what they are spending their money on after they've initially purchased the game.
My two cents anyway.
I think most logical consumers and modern investors agree.
The thing is tho' TESO is designed around trying to recreate the WoW success story. They're going to try to launch with a sub because it's a premium name. They'll declare success for three months or so. Everyone will say it's a drag within 6 months, and then it'll eventually become some hybrid of the model you've outlined within a year.
If they break this habit I'll be truly shocked. It's like ZeniMax is going by the 2008 playbook pretty hardcore.
a yo ho ho
It is a different genre, but SC2 has to mantain various servers 24/7 like any other MMORPG, so I´m guessing the expenses would be the same. True thing is Blizzard gets money from tournaments and stuff if I am not mistaken, but still I think without the money they get from the tournaments they would still make profit.
Regardless of how many players that play the game it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out why WoW's playerbase are the worst based on things like" Official T-Shirts with the logo "I Survived Barrens Chat".
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When that came out (years ago) it was funny and relevant.
I can't grasp how you think that works as an example, but ok.
I have a TSW LT sub. I am Happy with it still, I get a lot of extras for being a lifetimer.
Funny enough they are talking about giving LT players more things since so many people were whiney Babies. Strangely enough the Lifetimers actually were generally happy with it. you saw a small minority who were unhappy.
Anyways as much as i dont like B2P, So long as WoW is still on the market P2P wont be profitable to anyone else. so i had to go with B2P.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I can't fathom how you wouldn't think it does.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Sub, for many reasons. The first and foremost being that I cannot stand cash shops. I hate the feeling that I bought this game, but I will never be able to obtain those small things in it. But selfish reasons aside, it will profit Zenimax much more. And with more profit comes more frequent updates, more stable servers, and an overall better experience. I've no problem paying monthly for a game that the devs are likely paying thousands a month to keep running, servers ain't cheap.
As mentioned earlier (This isn't completely true) but at least for awhile, sub based games have a better community. I mean, it took a long time for WoW to go downhill like it is now, I played since launch, and believe it or not, there was a time when the community wasn't half bad. Granted a jerk/elitest from time to time, but those are in every game.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
P2P, simply because cash shops for ingame items are a very slippery slope, in any form. About the only way I would agree with a cash shop is if it was strictly to allow newcomers to a game to purchase items that vets had been given as anniversary rewards. This would breath a little more cash into the game and except for the few that would feel "their" loyalty wasn't as valued because someone new could acquire them, albeit for hard cash, most would be happy.
Imo, most P2P companies feel more of an obligation to keep the players happy on a continual basis(ie.ingame gms, account recovery options, etc) instead of like with B2P pointing them to a future expansion or if you're lucky a decent content patch and justifying any problems with a "hey, it's f2p what do you expect?" and for ingame service, don't hold your breath.
Also with B2P most players lose their attachment after the first couple of months simply because they feel they've paid two month's worth of a sub and when the newness wears off and if the game isn't living up to expectations(real, assumed or implied) the players flee, dollars in tow, iow's, it turns into a F2P experience.
F2P otoh tends to attract drifters who seldom care about the game past "winning" it and even less about the other people that play it, driving many of those other players away and leaving a whole subset of gamers disenchanted with mmos and their supporters in general and either become drifters themselves with no attachment, monetary or emotional, to any game or searching out those games who's companies/creators still believe that loyal customers that are willing to pay you regularily for your continued efforts are more valuable than millions of players who are willing to eat your bandwidth as long as they don't have any obligations to the game and most certainly not with their wallets.
When it comes down to it, whether P2P, B2P, F2P, Freemium, Premium or whatever you want to call it, all of the items are virtual, and when you quit playing the game, or it quits you, none of it will survive past the entertainment memories you gathered and hopefully some of the friendships you may have made while playing it. As for value, what's the price of entertainment? How much is your cable bill, movie allowance, opera budget, golf game, etc? None of those are items you get to keep either, they're all just memories, hopefully good ones otherwise you're getting shafted. When I spend my money on entertainment, I like to pay for something I want to see, hear, participate in, or play, not so someone else can play for free.
So i stopped readin at "don't answer as a customer, answer as if you were the owner of the company"
Yea...you do realize how many pre-teens are on this site right? And even then, putting age aside, most adults can't even put themselves realistically in a company owner's shoes like that and make an informed decision. It's why so few are successful company owners and so many are just mere peons.
So yea, pointless poll. Sorry
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
iv seen alot of people saying B2P means the develpers have to put focus into game play to amintain retention. . . . .WHY
the only module that they have to work for retention instead of new peple is P2P because they want you to keep up your sub any other version and once you have bought the game or all the dhinies in shop they no longer can get anything from you and at this point they dont care about you
so tell me please explain to me why the devs would care about core game play and retention if they already got your cash
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Let me remind you also that over a million people bought the game, fully knowing it came with a subscription fee. The problem wasn't the sub fee, it was that the game wasn't good enough for an mmorpg to warrant a sub fee. It was a B2P game from the start, only Bioware were too arrogant to realize that til it was too late. People will pay a sub fee if they enjoy playing an mmo and want to conitinue to play it.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It's a god awful way to fund a game because essentialy it's a question of economics.
i.e if there's a demand for cosmetic cs stuff what do you produce? More of the same and ignore the other stuff that doesn't make you money, like bug fixes,content gaps etc.
Also they'll make things as absolute, 'must haves', that you need to buy. Lockbox keys are across many games and are resented by most of the playerbase who get the feeling the developers are treating them like an ATM. CO is one of the latest to do this, they have new mounts released with the last patch. You can only get them from a lockbox, (which you have to buy), which has a terrible random chance of dropping them so it's essentially gambling with crap odds.
The problem with many cs is there just far too greedy and will change to drastically depending on profit margins. As a subscriber you have certain rights, your paying for a service and you can tell that company if your not happy. If a game does well then developers will invest to keep you there. As a f2p player if you think somethings wrong you'll either be ignored or banned as they target is the next schumuck with more money then sense.
Secret World is a failed sub game, they've taken this approach to try and generate interest and money. If this doesn't work then they'll change their model again to squeeze more cash out of the remaining players. B2P/F2P always means you have to come up with new ways to make extra money and that makes it far too easy to exploit your players.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!