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Vanguard is looking awfully good right now

From Oloh, beta testing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, a discussion on the combat system:

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I have been playing Vanguard since the first hour of beta 0. I play pretty much every night, and have been working my way up in levels. Brad has allowed me to begin posting my thoughts and observations from beta to provide everyone with a player's perspective on how the game is going.

I feel it is fitting to elaborate on some of the posts that Brad made yesterday. The first topic, then, is Vanguard's game play.

But first, I want to offer a mini-disclaimer. I do not have a mandate on what I can say, nor is anything I say pre-approved by anyone at Sigil. The team is confident in their product, and they were looking for a way to get information to the community in a responsible way (i.e. a way that doesn't spoil every aspect of the game and that will respect features that are being witheld to protect competitive advantage).

I will be the first to admit that I am baised. But my bias is the type of bias typical of players that love a game. I love Vanguard and have been having some of the most fun in any MMOG since Velious era of EQ.

In the interest of full disclosure, I work for Sigil as an attorney, but do not work in house for them. I was playing MMOGs long before I practiced law though, so I like to consider myself a fan first, and a lawyer second. My goal is to provide real information that I, as a player, would like to hear. Tell me how I do.

I welcome fellow players to tell me what they want to hear.


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With comments from the peanut gallery raging from "its too brown" to the "character models suck compared to Unreal 2008," I want to start off talking about something important…gameplay.

Rather than provide "puff" about how great it is, I think the best thing to do is just describe it. Res Ipsa Loquitur.

I am a player, not a developer. The description that I provide is from my experience playing almost every night of beta0 and the budding stages of beta1. It is slanted to the role I am most familiar with, warrior tanking. I am a level 34 warrior, and this is the system as it is in the game right now.

General Statement: If EQ's gameplay is considered a leisurely stroll, and WoW's is a healthy jog, Vanguard's gameplay feels like ice skating. It is smooth.

Autoattack
Let's start with the whole notion of autoattack. Prior games used autoattack to both remove twitchy skill from the game, and spread melee's damage over the course of an encounter. In Vanguard, autoattack works differently.

Harking back to pen and paper games, autoattack is essentially your "combat round timer" to plan the encounter before your next move, or series of moves. If the player does nothing, the character will execute a very basic attack for his next round. But, just like a pen and paper campaign, players will do something every "turn" of combat.

Your "turn speed" is variable, with different types of weapons having different turn speeds. A newbie two hander would be, as stated elsewhere, about a six second swing time. This is as slow as it gets. Faster two handers drop turn speed down considerably, and one handers are generally a lot faster. Because a decision to do "something" must be made every turn, combat appears somewhat slower than what players may be used to. I would be the first to complain if it was a real problem when you are playing. It isn't. Even when using the slowest two hander, I find myself missing openings and opportunities, rather than waiting for it to go off. In fact, I sometimes use slower weapons in some situations to have more time to react, when it is important.

Special Attacks
So what can you do in combat? Let's start with the most basic form of an attack in Vanguard, (and in most other games), the special attack. Special attacks are melee attacks that do more damage than autoattack, or create some form of special effect, such as a debuff, or a cone shaped area of effect melee attack. Pretty staple stuff here, and a well-versed mmoger will pick up using specials very quickly. Except for the fact that there are also defensive specials, which leads to a tank, and other classes, having to pay attention (oh noes!).

Some Special Attacks are defensive, rather than offensive, in nature. The best way to describe this is by a reference to the old pen and paper ability of "set to receive charge." For example, if a warrior perceives that the next attack is a hugely damaging attack (see below how this is done), the warrior may choose to use a defensive special where he doesn’t do any damage, but instead sets himself to receive the blow and, in turn, mitigates a large chunk of its damage. A sharp armchair designer out there may say "oh great, so we will just be spamming defensive specials," but that is not the case either…because of special ability cool-downs and the timing of autoattack, if you simply spam your defensive specials, you will not have them available for use when "the big one" occurs, because you may have "wasted" it on a lesser attack used to fake out the warrior. A good example from actual gameplay is wasting a defensive special mitigating a claw attack of 100 down to 10, but then not having the ability to mitigate the 500 devour attack that the mob does the following turn.

Mob Attacks
You may notice in the screenshots floating around that you will see icons appear to pop up on the screen. Many people have mislabeled these icons as a complex game of whack-a-mole. In fact, the some of the icons on the screen are actually forthcoming attacks by your enemy. Intelligent tanks (or other players such as sorcerer waiting to counterspell) can "see" the attacks that the enemy has currently executed, and more importantly, the attacks the enemy is setting up to use on the next turn. This is a fundamental part of the game play of Vanguard, and experienced MMOGers should immediately be frothing at the mouth when they read these words:

Important Part 1: You have chance to see mobs attacks BEFORE they actually land. Think about that, and what that can do to boss encounters, raids, etc., not only from a tank perspective, but from other classes as well.

Here is the important part, obviously. Not all mobs attacks are the same. Just like PCs, the critters have various attacks. Some of the attacks are devastating blows that can cripple even the most studly tank in a couple hits. Others are minor attacks used to throw off the warrior's timing, and still others are used to debuff the warrior, or snare him, or otherwise cause some parade of horribles upon him. Still others are huge AEs that, if they land, can seriously change the encounter.

Important Part 2: Players have abilities to proactively counter some NPC abilities, and will need to do so or else they will get owned.

Extrapolate the idea. A warrior sees the critter's attacks about a round in advance, and has time to react, and is, in turn, given abilities to react, and you start to see how Vanguard's gameplay begins to take on a whole new light.

There will be time later to get into more complex things. These are just the basics. Other aspects of gameplay are stances (that have only some attacks available, so switching between them is a must…at a penalty), chains (attacks that lead to other attacks), reactions (mob attacks and defensives have a chance to be flawed, and give certain classes an ability to take advantage of the flaws), symbiotics (which will, in the near future, be chains between classes), weapon choices, techniques (single encounter buffs), and varied monster states.


Take a minute and think only about the gameplay elements mentioned. If you do, you can see how combat in Vanguard will redefine the complexity of encounters:

You have chance to see mobs attacks BEFORE they actually land.

Players have abilities to proactively counter some NPC abilities.

Simply put, the tradeoff is that VG has exchanged seeing multiple, lower value hits fly across chat, for slower, more powerful hits, that require players actions both to and in response of mobs. You are not unilaterally hammering away at a HP bar with a 3d model attached. You are interacting with the enemy. This is one of the many reasons why Vanguard lives up to the hype with respect to its third generation gameplay.

Like EverQuest turned MUDS 3D, Vanguard has made MMOG combat 3D.

I would just like to point out that the above is not theory. It is not sitting in some design document heaven buried right behind player housing in original EQ and permadeath Jedi in SWG. It is in the game, working, and it is freaking sweet.

image

__________________________

"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo

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Comments

  • scaramooshscaramoosh Member Posts: 3,424

    Their dev team are sooo old fashioned : Don't want another EQ game!

     

    Without PVP/descent PVP theres no point to a mmorpg tbh!

     

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    Don't click here...no2

  • WeppsWepps Member Posts: 1,322

    What MMO to-date has done PvP right, without completely bumming it up in an expansion or a patch?

    NOT....ONE.

    I'm no longer convinced the presence of PvP combat is a selling point.

    But one thing's for sure, Sigil are the same guys that made the original EQ. They aren't going to be making random changes overnight to your game play, they are going to pay attention to detail. And above all, they are going to build an immersive combat system as the center piece of an immersive and fun game.

    Is it EQ?

    You know what? If it was EQ, I wouldn't be disappointed. It had its flaws initially that were never really corrected under SOE's management. But the designers themselves had nothing prior to go on, and they came up with THAT.

    These guys are true game design geniuses.

    From what I am seeing, this game is not EQ in any way. It's truly a next-gen MMO, and not on the console scale of 'generations'.

    image

    __________________________

    "For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo

  • scaramooshscaramoosh Member Posts: 3,424

    Personally mmorpgs that got PVP right are:

     

    EVE Online - Amazing unforgiving mmorpg designed around a fully free PVP game!

    WOW - Fun very well balanced PVP, which no loss it feels like a CSS RPG type of PVP

    DAOC - Best RVR

    SWG - If they went back the pre CU and added more GCW features

     

    Games like EQ2 just got it sooo wrong.

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    image
    Don't click here...no2

  • EnigmaEnigma Member UncommonPosts: 11,384

    moving to vanguard forums

    People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.

  • OrillionOrillion Member Posts: 24


    Originally posted by scaramoosh
    Their dev team are sooo old fashioned : Don't want another EQ game!

    Without PVP/descent PVP theres no point to a mmorpg tbh!

    An mmorpg doesn't need a PvP aspect to verify it's existence. There is a huge crowd of gamers that will enjoy a straight PVE game with little or even NO PvP aspect. The community is the basis of an MMORPG, and Vanguard is taking the right step (no instancing) to bringing back the community feeling that has been long lost in most MMORPG's today.

  • RycheanRychean Member Posts: 54
    Agreed a mmo doesn't need pvp to be successful.    There are alot of people who enjoy the pve aspect and don't need the pvp.  PVP doesn't make a game.  
  • Valant6Valant6 Member Posts: 50

    I responded to a similar comment on the Vanguard forums...while it's true PvP doesn't make a game, it sure as hell can break it.....A modern MMORPG title that does not implement a PvP system will single itself out of a very large subscriber base that is PvP driven.....That wouldn't be a smart move at all from a business perspective.....

    I trust that Brad & Co. will get it right. image

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    PvP and Raiding are both overated.

     

    The average player want a system where he can make fun with a few friends and possibly alone...every effort put away from Grouping or Soloing is an effort to please minorities.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • Valant6Valant6 Member Posts: 50

    Don't know what you mean about 'average' player, but if you mean 'casual' players, those gamers don't make up the majority of the overall MMO community.....it's daily gamers and hardcore fanatics that produce most of the MMO volume.

    And why don't you tell the thousands of PvP subscribers that DAoC still has, and hundreds of thousands of PvPers that WoW has that 'PvP and Raiding are overrated'... image..I think you'll find a different majority opinion out there.....

    I don't think thats a wise opinion my friend. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but that sounds like a knee jerk statement that is obviously not well thought out at all.

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by Valant6

    Don't know what you mean about 'average' player, but if you mean 'casual' players, those gamers don't make up the majority of the overall MMO community.....it's daily gamers and hardcore fanatics that produce most of the MMO volume.
    And why don't you tell the thousands of PvP subscribers that DAoC still has, and hundreds of thousands of PvPers that WoW has that 'PvP and Raiding are overrated'... image..I think you'll find a different majority opinion out there.....
    I don't think thats a wise opinion my friend. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but that sounds like a knee jerk statement that is obviously not well thought out at all.




    WoW, who is raiding and PvP designed to start with, as more player involved on the PvE server and those players never raid in a big crushing majority.

     

    Just think 1 moment, if WoW would have been designed to be a great PvE and non-raiding game to start with...

     

    You have no idea what you are talking about.  The average player don't crave to fight other players.  He don't crave either to be a big army of players.  He just want to play either alone or with a small group.

     

    And all the potential customers who refuse to join are even more into that category than those who already join.  If you are going to appeal to those customers who refuse to join the MMO, you first need to design a game for them.

     

    Live on your clouds if you want.  The MMORPG who will meet the biggest success will be design for Solo and Group in PvE.  The other activities may or not be present, but they will not hinder solo or grouping in any possible way.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • angerrangerr Member Posts: 865


    Originally posted by Anofalye
    Originally posted by Valant6
    Don't know what you mean about 'average' player, but if you mean 'casual' players, those gamers don't make up the majority of the overall MMO community.....it's daily gamers and hardcore fanatics that produce most of the MMO volume.
    And why don't you tell the thousands of PvP subscribers that DAoC still has, and hundreds of thousands of PvPers that WoW has that 'PvP and Raiding are overrated'... image..I think you'll find a different majority opinion out there.....
    I don't think thats a wise opinion my friend. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but that sounds like a knee jerk statement that is obviously not well thought out at all.
    WoW, who is raiding and PvP designed to start with, as more player involved on the PvE server and those players never raid in a big crushing majority.
     
    Just think 1 moment, if WoW would have been designed to be a great PvE and non-raiding game to start with...
     
    You have no idea what you are talking about.  The average player don't crave to fight other players.  He don't crave either to be a big army of players.  He just want to play either alone or with a small group.
     
    And all the potential customers who refuse to join are even more into that category than those who already join.  If you are going to appeal to those customers who refuse to join the MMO, you first need to design a game for them.
     
    Live on your clouds if you want.  The MMORPG who will meet the biggest success will be design for Solo and Group in PvE.  The other activities may or not be present, but they will not hinder solo or grouping in any possible way.

    i don't know, nor have i met anyone that doesn't like to raid, these arguments you try to make about raiding are so stupid imo. raiding is grouping (just a bigger group) and it is a huge part of wow,eq,eq2 and all the other popular mmorpg's.

    raids are no different than groups, its just alot funner to be in a guild that can do stuff like that. do you have to raid? no, who said you did?

    really.... how many posts are you going to make talking about how you don't like raiding? ::::37::


    image

    read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....

  • MisterJawMisterJaw Member Posts: 49

    Raiding blows goats. It's a tired game mechanic that deserves a "niche" audience.

    Every fantasy/SciFi book I've ever read (I've read quite a few over the past 25 years, thanks) has a group of 2 - 12 characters that join up for quests. Then there's the "lone wolf" style of books that feature an impossibly strong/lucky/skilled hero who is able to take on the world - but even these soloers end up making friends or enemies that they then need to help them take on an insurmountable problem at some point.

    Do I ever read about 72 characters who gather up to beat on one monster who would otherwise be minding its own business? Does it seem right that 4 or 5 of these 72 are the sole benefactors of, say, the dragon's hoarde?

    Raiding is not just a bigger group, when you consider that not everyone has the same chance at the rewards from the encounter and the XP is divided up a good deal more than in a typical 6-character group. Let's not forget that assembling a group of six may take 5 - 30 minutes. A raid takes anywhere from 15 minutes - 2 hours to assemble. The fights are not similar, either. A group-based fight takes 30 seconds to 15 minutes, yet a raid encounter may take 10 minutes to 2 hours. Factor in retries and you may make a day of it - literally. Let's say XP earned in 8 hours with no deaths while grouping = two levels' worth. While raiding with no deaths, you'd earn... what? A nice breastplate for your guild's top tanker, possibly a flag (which is a pass to go waste even more time getting something that will need upgrading in a week), some spells for those who need them, and about 20% of a level's worth of XP. Worth playing? Not to most people.

    I used to love raiding, but now it's just a time sink where the rewards are not worth the trouble. WoW tried to address this by making the monsters for raids a bit easier. That's not the answer. The answer lies in making raids meaningful to each and every player. The answer assumes that you are having fun.


    Guilds are supposed to be about helping one another and giving a voice to people who feel like they belong to something greater than themselves. I've found that guilds, with little exception, are about the egos of a handful of people and "getting ahead." The dramas in a guild often overshadow the ones provided in the quests and backstories of the game. That's when I lose interest in being part of a guild.


    PvP would be great if everyone were the same level and it was only allowed in sanctioned areas where players have a reason to be there - just like Dark Age of Camelot's Realm vs. Realm combat, but without the tombstone camping.

    An average player is not a casual player, by outmoded definitions. A casual player these days would profess to play anywhere from 10 - 20 hours per week. The problem is that there is no term that covers someone who plays one or two hours a night and sometimes two or three more on the weekend. Some would say hardcore. Some would say casual. Some would say average or normal. Some would say serious gamer. It's all perception. I used to play 4 - 6 hours each workday, plus 10 - 17 hours per non-work day, i.e., holidays, sick, weekends, etc. I was not quite right in the head then. Some would have described me as hardcore, but they'd have been wrong. 8)

  • Valant6Valant6 Member Posts: 50

    Anofalye...You're trying to prove some points that Im not arguing with you on....I dont know what your definition is of an 'Average' player is, so no comment there...

    Also, in relation to PvP, my point stands....I'm really not sure what you mean by Im 'living on the clouds' by saying that a game will not be as successful as the other big boys on the market if they disclude PvP from their games...I think thats a pretty true statement....

    And your idea of 'the biggest game will be designed for solo and group PvE' has already occured in City of Heroes until they implemented PvP (which is a joke), and, while it was successful, still doesnt compete and pull a large number of players from the other big boys on the market...



    Just think 1 moment, if WoW would have been designed to be a great PvE and non-raiding game to start with...


    And? If that were the case, they would still have a good subscriber base, but Blizzard would not have retained as many customers if PvP was not implemented....

    Again, my original point stands:

    PvP does not MAKE a game succesful by itself, but it is one of the contributing factors that could always BREAK a game...

  • angerrangerr Member Posts: 865


    The problem is that there is no term that covers someone who plays one or two hours a night and sometimes two or three more on the weekend

    it seems to me that your looking for something you can just pick up and play 1-2 hours a day. mmorpg's generally weren't meant for that but i do understand where you are coming from.

    but i don't see how you could make a game with a persistent world, thats geared twords a player that can only play 1-2 hours a day. you really cant, i would say a concept like guildwars....where there isn't really a persistent world but you can always find someone to group with could fit your bill.

    but most people that only game for 1-2 hours usually play console games, i mean there is no way any guild or entire community would survive if all the players played 1-2 hours a day.....

    and i still don't see the big problem with raiding....if you don't like it then just don't do it. if you have a problem with other people being able to progress faster than you or have the better gear because they raid well....they will anyways because i assure you they will group,solo, or raid a whole hell of alot more than you. and it will always be that way in any mmorpg IMHO....

    edit: btw raids were never meant for xp, and for me not even loot really...its about having fun and breaking up the grind. and what difference does it make if you haven't read a book with a army of people trying to defeat one enemy? rofl there is more to raids than just that i assure you ::::02::

    image

    read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....

  • VegalordVegalord Member Posts: 40

    Mediocre Pvp ( which is all we've had since UO) < Excellent PVE. I can't deny that PVP is the future but most pvp games just turn into gank fests with no real RP. Go play a shooter. Most of the communities for pvp games suck as well, solely because everyone is an angsty douche, at least in my experience.

    koto

  • n2soonersn2sooners Member UncommonPosts: 926


    Originally posted by MisterJaw
    Raiding blows goats. It's a tired game mechanic that deserves a "niche" audience.Every fantasy/SciFi book I've ever read (I've read quite a few over the past 25 years, thanks) has a group of 2 - 12 characters that join up for quests. Then there's the "lone wolf" style of books that feature an impossibly strong/lucky/skilled hero who is able to take on the world - but even these soloers end up making friends or enemies that they then need to help them take on an insurmountable problem at some point.Do I ever read about 72 characters who gather up to beat on one monster who would otherwise be minding its own business? Does it seem right that 4 or 5 of these 72 are the sole benefactors of, say, the dragon's hoarde?

    Ever read the LOTR books? I can think of a number of raids involving a large number of characters (far more than even the most ambitious MMORPGs).

    image image

  • MartukMartuk Member Posts: 20



    Originally posted by scaramoosh

    Their dev team are sooo old fashioned : Don't want another EQ game!
     
    Without PVP/descent PVP theres no point to a mmorpg tbh!
     



    Read a little more about it, and you will see how inaccurate this statement is. While the game is not only going to be more difficult and challenging it just won't be one of those "O look I maxed out in 2 weeks" type games. It has a lot of things not yet tried in an MMO. Some of their ideas are looking really promising like Diplomacy, the Perception skill, the Advanced Encounter System, as well as the way they are doing the crafting system. None of that was in EQ or EQ2. Something to keep in mind before the next clone thread starts. image  Visit the official site and read up a bit. If you need some links just ask. I'll toss you a few up.

     

    They also have PvP in the works that is actually making me consider giving it a go, and I hate PvP. Some of the things they have planned involve the ability to destroy player made cities as well as warfare at sea.

    Assistant Community Manager
    Age of Conan Ten Ton Hammer

  • MMO_MunkMMO_Munk Member Posts: 299

    image

     

    Even knowing that the yare old school devs, i prefer old school devs, to the new common age lets make one hting on release and then on next years expansion remake the game to get the new gaggle of 14 year old gamers. No thanks. Screw that to the 5th power of my Zion driven fuzzy squirrel hammer of the ages.

    Seriously Who wants to par take in an mmo that changes drastically? not I, Look at SWG, and tell me you have faith in the Newbie Dev's of other companies. god have mercy.  I have great respect for these people, and the way they do things, have trust in them, for they are our last hope for a decent MMO.image

  • krenalorkrenalor Member Posts: 214



    Originally posted by Anofalye

    PvP and Raiding are both overated.
     
    The average player want a system where he can make fun with a few friends and possibly alone...every effort put away from Grouping or Soloing is an effort to please minorities.


    I agree, and if Vanguard does GROUP content right and avoids the pitfall of the "raid mentality" I would play.

  • krenalorkrenalor Member Posts: 214



    Originally posted by angerr






    i don't know, nor have i met anyone that doesn't like to raid, these arguments you try to make about raiding are so stupid imo. raiding is grouping (just a bigger group) and it is a huge part of wow,eq,eq2 and all the other popular mmorpg's.

    raids are no different than groups, its just alot funner to be in a guild that can do stuff like that. do you have to raid? no, who said you did?

    really.... how many posts are you going to make talking about how you don't like raiding? ::::37::





    I DESPISE raiding and know the majority of players feel the same way!  I could give or take on PvP, depends how much fun it is and fairly balanced classes wise. I love Guild Wars PvP, due to class balances. Hated EQ PvP, classes esp kiting classes, made melee total gimps, except perhaps SK. The point is raiders can have raid gear as long as it doesn't effect GROUPING oportunities, and when "whats your AC and hps?" the ONLY consideration for good zone exp in GROUPS, and it REQUIRES raiding to get to the proper levels, the game is done for. In no way can you call WoW a PvP or raid game, and it is wildly successful, moreso then EQ. The reason why is it has a LITTLE bit of raiding and PvP but not a whole game based on it, and raid gear isn't grossly overpowered unlike EQ.
  • grappergrapper Member Posts: 1


    I hate PvP. I would much rather have scarce dev resources devoted to a rich PvE enviornment than have mediocre mix of both. I have no problem is people want to play PvP games, but don't get fooled into thinking that everyone wants that. For me the fun part of a MMO is the teamwork, social interaction and friendships. This is why I hate games that cater to solo player and games that focus on PvP. The original EQ (until it be came "expansion pack of the month club") and now Vanguard are a perfect fit for what I want out of a MMO.

    As for raids.... Sometimes I liked them, but there has to be something better than spending hours getting set up just to have a 5 min encounter. The rush of accomplishment sometimes made all the sitting around waiting worthwhile... sometimes it didn't.

  • elf8blisself8bliss Member UncommonPosts: 304
    I think PVP is a very integrel part of a mmorpg, but it's not the most important in my opinion. But to get off the pvp, debate, I would like to known more about content like loot. Epps, what's the loot like? I hope they got a lot of diverse loot, I hate to see each class running round with the same high end stuff. 2nd, what the customization like? Please give us a lot of diversity, to look different from everyone else!
  • angerrangerr Member Posts: 865


    Originally posted by elf8bliss
    I think PVP is a very integrel part of a mmorpg, but it's not the most important in my opinion. But to get off the pvp, debate, I would like to known more about content like loot. Epps, what's the loot like? I hope they got a lot of diverse loot, I hate to see each class running round with the same high end stuff. 2nd, what the customization like? Please give us a lot of diversity, to look different from everyone else!

    you left out a very important choice in your poll, community and or player interaction.... witch is the most important thing to a mmorpg imho.

    image

    read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....

  • elf8blisself8bliss Member UncommonPosts: 304
    Point noted!
  • jehu67jehu67 Member Posts: 2

      i for one am looking foward to this game for several reasons the least being that brad et al are  part of the dev team...  oh wait .. nm that is important to me because as a veteran of several mmorpgs i have to say that none have imo come close to the fun i had playing the original eq.... heres the thing, (and i'm sure it will be much different then eq1) the way the current games all seem to be leaning is towards soloability , instanced zones, smaller tigher raids and in general i would say with the exception of ffix, the ones i have played  have been so easy its silly... wheres the challenge, wheres the sense of actually accomplishing anything? eq2? joke, wow? not even gonna start... and of the few others ive played, they all seem to take something and "enhance" or modify aspects they gleaned from eq1... with some exceptions.. (horizons = crafting, ao= instancing) now that being said.. yes i am looking foward to vanguard because with the  time theyve had  away, hindsight and observation, i'm sure the devs have a good idea of how they want things to be and given that microsoft will likely be the distributor you know they have the resources to actually produce what they dream of

     now as to whether or not pvp and raiding is what people want or look for in a mmorpg? well all i can say is hey if you want pvp? play QUAKE or UNREAL! i cant tell you how many times ive been ganked by some simp of a egoistically challenged toon looking to get his/her  game on.. ridiculous.. i think the whole lure of morpgs for many is  quite simply getting things done with others in some communal sense.... this being my opinion.. it follows logically that raids would be the penultimate experience in that way...

     i understand that people come from varied tastes and backgrounds to play these games and all have different expectations.. the bottom line is these people making this game have among the most experience in doing so, and given that, will most likely come up with something that will appeal to everyone... pvp crafters raiders soloists the like... this is the new environment they have to face due to the everybody gets a piece of pie mentality currently pervading the mmorpg/dev community

     i could go on but prone to babbling ...

     be good

     jehu

     

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