I come from a hard core dualing background in Quake and UT - I just cant see the point of aiming in MMO's. MMO's are played across continents with latency in the ranges of 250ms so they make things move really slow an increase their hit boxes etc to compensate for that latency. Makes the point of aiming redundant so including it so it FEELS like you're playing an FPS is stupid imho.
Play quake without crosshairs and hover 20 feet above your player.
Originally posted by Canan I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean? I can't help being facetious when someone tells me their video game of choice takes more skill than mine.
Chances are if your playing a tab targetted game, the reason you won instead of your enemy was because of a stat point on a piece of your gear.If your playing a freeform target game, chances are the reason you won was a well timed dodge or good use of environment.That is what skill is, not your endless grinding for lewtz, not your epic auction house skills, and not you using your mama's credit card for uber gear. Skill is skill, some lack it and try to fake it with there gear based tab target games.
What does loot have to do with tab targeting being more or less skillful? You can have completely cosmetic gear in tab targeted games the same as you can have stat enhancing gear in fps "action" combat. These aren't mutually exclusive things.
Yea, I think the best argument for tab-targeting is, with free form targeting, you lag, you die... period. It alsmost makes the game "Pay To Win", cuz while you're not actually giving your money to the devs themsevles, or the gaming company, you do have to pay a shit-load to get like, an Alienware-level machine, and the top-tier high-speed internet. lol
Or if you live somewhere other than North America with a North American server: you always lag, you always die. Please dont say something stupid like "play on an Australian Server" or "get a better connection". There are very few Australian servers at all and connections that would put you within 100ms of someone in the US on a US server are impossible. You would be lucky to be consistently within 200ms of a US connection to a US server.
under 150ms is impossible, its 150ms from sydney to san jose alone. you might get better if you were hooked into the sydney backbone directly maybe.
Pretty much but I have seen claims in the past of pings from Sydney to San Jose around 140ms, not substantiated mind you. Might happen in very special circumstances like a direct connect. But for the consumer and business markets 180 plus is the limit.
The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player". Tab-targeting systems require less twitch skill than a free-targeting system; I don't think anyone argues against that. What has made tab-target systems more skill based are the relationships between the skills and understanding how everything interacts. That isn't a skill level associated with the targeting system. It is a skill level associated with comprehending game mechanics. Introduce complex ability relationships to a free-targeting system and you would have one of the most daunting and demanding combat systems to date, and those gamers who are able to grasp mechanics as well as perform in a twitch based system would beat out your jump jump kiddies and /face /stick dinosaurs. If CoD bunny-hoppers are your concern, mitigate against that by adding a mechanic such as stamina and then penalize the gamer through that mechanic when they engage in something you want to discourage, such as repetitious jumping. If the truth is that you don’t like free targeting because you struggle with it, just say so. We’ve all lost to a 10-yr old in Halo at some point haha. My personal desire is for /face /stick to go away. Movement and positioning in pvp based games can be a lot of fun, and they introduce another dynamic to the combat experience. So while I sympathize with those of us who struggle in a faster paced combat environment, in the interest of the game, I must cast my vote for a more free-targeting based system.
I really like most of your post. But, dang, its hard to read.
However, the reason you have /face is because you don't have a radar that in are in most FPS.
If you think positioning isn't important in lock-on target, then you never played a mid healer or any ranged class for that matter. There is a constant battle between being effective, overextending, and trying not to be an obvious target.
Originally posted by Canan Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.
same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.
What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.
It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay.
Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.
I want to see combat that doesn't ignore terrain features.
(He swings his sword right through pillars, several times (0:30) in that video. And the blood-splatter's gotta go, thought Conan killed that idea for good.)
Besides the apparent 100% decapitation success rate.
-The "this takes skill and that doesn't" comments add nothing to the discussion. Nor do the comments accusing any players of being "kiddies." Come on, this isn't a thread about Stealth!
-"Tab targetting" doesn't refer to the literal use of Tab to acquire a target, but rather to the selection of a target (by tab or click) and the automatic aim of a skill or ability at that target. As opposed to aiming a skill or ability at an area or in a direction which the intended target may or may not inhabit. At least that's the way I understand it... am I wrong?
-I don't believe either system requires more or less skill, nor do I believe one system is inheirantly better than the other. I would prefer a tab-target component at the least because it allows for greater complexity and sophistication of skills and abilites including combinations and chains.
-Free form targetting restricts the level of complexity in that it makes it much easier to miss landing a skill or ability, thus destroying the opportunity to land any type of combination or chain. This will make necessary the more spammable nature of skills and, quite probably, a reduced repertoire of skills and abilities.
-Latency will ALWAYS be a huge issue in PvP. Mitigating its effect is paramount to a successful game. Tab-targetting has a greater ability to mitigate the effects of latency, afaik.
-I'm not opposed to a kind of hybrid system. In actuality, DAoC had a hybrid system in that some skills were "ground target" spells and thus mimicked a "free form" targeting system, in a sense. I hate to make this comparison, but think of LoL... it uses a kind of hybrid system, albeit in a different type of play where LoS issues are not as prevalent.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by Canan Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.
same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.
What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.
It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay.
Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.
No. As a person who has played and enjoyed both genres I can gladly inform you of your bias opinion.
Originally posted by Canan Please use tab targeting. Action based games, in my experience, just turn into mashing buttons over and over.
same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.
What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.
It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay.
Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.
If you notice, none of these non "tab targetting" games ever use more than a handful of skills.
P.S. "Tab targetting" is not a system of a game. It is an option, a tool, for the player.
I'm going to have to side with the anti-"tab targeting" crowd. To me, "tab targeting" breeds laziness and encourages anti-strategic behavior. So, instead of picking out that squishy or healer, you end up attacking a tank because he's the first guy your tab target lands on. And it's probably not very productive to keep beating on a tank when he keeps getting healed up by that annoying Cleric. When you get this type of behavior on a mass scale, it just ends up turning into a numbers game: The side with the bigger disorganized zerg wins out over the smaller disorganized zerg. That gets old pretty quick. Strategy is what will make epic battles between zergs actually FUN, imho.
Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.
Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner. Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA. However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out. And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns. When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare. TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.
Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each. Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.
And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile. And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP. (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).
Originally posted by Canan I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?
It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.
When people use the term "skill based" it refers mainly to the skill of player in terms of twitch abilities, aiming, quick thinking, etc.
Tab-target/hotkey systems do take some skill to use, and generally yes, they do have more "abilities"t to use.
However they lack any kind of twitch plaer focused abilitiy, need to aim, keep your target oriented, etc.
A skill based system generally means that you, as the player, are the one who has to aim and thus it's your "player skill" that comes into play, hence the "skill" part in skill based.
Also for people talking about latency, In this day and age most mmo's generally have good servers located in most major countries, from servers on the west/mid/east coast in the US, to Australia/NZ servers, servers in the UK/Russia, etc.
If you make the choice to play on another countries server having higher latency is one offs, it's your choice to do so but don't punish other people by wanting game mechanics to be heled back because you choose to do that.
If games were all still built for 56k modem connections still you'd probably be just as annoyed too by the lack of things moving forward.
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.
Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner. Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA. However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out. And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns. When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare. TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.
Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each. Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.
And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile. And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP. (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).
Why do you guys get hung up that no tab targetting, or free aim, or the ability to freely dodge attacks(like in Tera) means you have to have LESS class choices, abilities, and other things?
Having combat even close to Tera with it's dodging mechanics and the melee ability to "hit" things that aren't specificlaly targetted on, in no way means that you have to hav ethe same classes, an dabilities deisgn as tera, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMBAT.
Just like WoW, if they wanted, go move to a fre eaim system, have dodging and till have hte same exact classes they have no and all the abilties, etc.
They are not exclusive to each other, do some of you not get this?
Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.
Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner. Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA. However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out. And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns. When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare. TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.
Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each. Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.
And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile. And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP. (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).
Originally posted by Canan I am still confused...what are these "skill" based games you are referencing? What does that term even mean?
It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.
When people use the term "skill based" it refers mainly to the skill of player in terms of twitch abilities, aiming, quick thinking, etc.
Tab-target/hotkey systems do take some skill to use, and generally yes, they do have more "abilities"t to use.
However they lack any kind of twitch plaer focused abilitiy, need to aim, keep your target oriented, etc.
A skill based system generally means that you, as the player, are the one who has to aim and thus it's your "player skill" that comes into play, hence the "skill" part in skill based.
Also for people talking about latency, In this day and age most mmo's generally have good servers located in most major countries, from servers on the west/mid/east coast in the US, to Australia/NZ servers, servers in the UK/Russia, etc.
If you make the choice to play on another countries server having higher latency is one offs, it's your choice to do so but don't punish other people by wanting game mechanics to be heled back because you choose to do that.
If games were all still built for 56k modem connections still you'd probably be just as annoyed too by the lack of things moving forward.
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.
Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner. Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA. However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out. And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns. When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare. TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.
Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each. Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.
And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile. And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP. (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).
Why do you guys get hung up that no tab targetting, or free aim, or the ability to freely dodge attacks(like in Tera) means you have to have LESS class choices, abilities, and other things?
Having combat even close to Tera with it's dodging mechanics and the melee ability to "hit" things that aren't specificlaly targetted on, in no way means that you have to hav ethe same classes, an dabilities deisgn as tera, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMBAT.
Just like WoW, if they wanted, go move to a fre eaim system, have dodging and till have hte same exact classes they have no and all the abilties, etc.
They are not exclusive to each other, do some of you not get this?
My point was what "twitch" players consider skill - I do not. I play both styles of games (FPS and Tab) and neither of them require any more skill than the other. To believe otherwise is frankly bias. They are just different. It is disheartening to see so many adamant "twitch" players actually believe those type of games have an Olymipic level skill cap.
The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".
That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.
And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...
Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill. The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.
You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.
I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of rapid movement (twitch) to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent, control his character's movement in anticipation of the next events, and also understand his skills well enough to have a "plan B" in case one of his abilities fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.
The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".
That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.
And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...
Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill. The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.
You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.
I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of movement to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and also have a "plan B" in case one of his skills fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.
There are two factors that make a lesser focus on twitch based combat a better option for MMOs:
1. Latency
2. MMOs are geared towards longer play times (fatigue)
The majority of arguments I've read in favor of tab-targeting being more skill intensive assume that twitch based systems (free-targeting) have less complex relationships between the skills. If you take a tab-target game like DAoC and introduce a free-targeting system, the game immediately becomes more skill based on a twitch level and therefore increases in overall skill required to be a "good player".
That's not true, because the focus always becomes more about just landing your spell, rather than what spell your going to cast, There's generally FAR less options in these games.
And NO ONE can do both twitch and strategy-based combat, at the same time, as well as they can do just pure strategy, so it becomes a combination of 10 year old CoD player skills, and intelligently strategizing, as oppoesd to just intelligent strategy...
Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill. The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.
You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.
I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of movement to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent and also have a "plan B" in case one of his skills fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.
There are two factors that make a lesser focus on twitch based combat a better option for MMOs:
1. Latency
2. MMOs are geared towards longer play times (fatigue)
I don't disagree with that opinion. Truth be told, I am prepared to lose fights due to latency if that is the cost of a more intense and immersive combat system, and I've never experience fatigue outside of a FPS, but I totally understand what you are saying and can see how that could be an issue. Having said that, I have to put my opinion out there and debate some of the opposing views in the best interest of the game. I'm prepared to enjoy whatever system gets elected.
-The "this takes skill and that doesn't" comments add nothing to the discussion. Nor do the comments accusing any players of being "kiddies." Come on, this isn't a thread about Stealth!
-"Tab targetting" doesn't refer to the literal use of Tab to acquire a target, but rather to the selection of a target (by tab or click) and the automatic aim of a skill or ability at that target. As opposed to aiming a skill or ability at an area or in a direction which the intended target may or may not inhabit. At least that's the way I understand it... am I wrong?
-I don't believe either system requires more or less skill, nor do I believe one system is inheirantly better than the other. I would prefer a tab-target component at the least because it allows for greater complexity and sophistication of skills and abilites including combinations and chains.
-Free form targetting restricts the level of complexity in that it makes it much easier to miss landing a skill or ability, thus destroying the opportunity to land any type of combination or chain. This will make necessary the more spammable nature of skills and, quite probably, a reduced repertoire of skills and abilities.
-Latency will ALWAYS be a huge issue in PvP. Mitigating its effect is paramount to a successful game. Tab-targetting has a greater ability to mitigate the effects of latency, afaik.
-I'm not opposed to a kind of hybrid system. In actuality, DAoC had a hybrid system in that some skills were "ground target" spells and thus mimicked a "free form" targeting system, in a sense. I hate to make this comparison, but think of LoL... it uses a kind of hybrid system, albeit in a different type of play where LoS issues are not as prevalent.
This is a great post. In regards to the GTAoE spells, those are a bit different, since it covers an area of effect, the player isn't required to aim as much, and doesn't necessarily have to center his AoE effect upon an enemy player.
people really like boring ass auto everything combait,
i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not...
Auto everything combat? Just because you don't have to always aim and mash a button in tab targeting games doesn't mean it is only "boring ass auto everything." Seriously, what an uninformed assumption. Humanity can be quite frustrating.
people really like boring ass auto everything combait,
i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not...
Auto everything combat? Just because you don't have to always aim and mash a button in tab targeting games doesn't mean it is only "boring ass auto everything." Seriously, what an uninformed assumption. Humanity can be quite frustrating.
Yea, dwarf's post really has no basis in reality, anyways, I think free-form targeting sounds better on paper, but tab-targeting is actually better in practice (with MMO's), that's why all the new MMO'ers, First Persion Shooter players, and Single Player RPG's players, are demaning free-form targeting, in games where it makes sense, it's cool, not in MMORPG's...
I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP. The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping.. do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work? Answer truthfully.
Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server. Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients. It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013.
I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.
It truly boggles my mind. I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.
It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO. What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types? APM. If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.
Here's a video:
Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant. Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives. Is it a 'wrong' format? Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.
This discussion truly boggles my mind. I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2. But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work. I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
Call me crazy - but I want to play an MMO not an FPS - so please keep the FPS crap out of the game. FPS's are horrible skill-lite at best. Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.
Originally posted by kryllen Call me crazy - but I want to play an MMO not an FPS - so please keep the FPS crap out of the game. FPS's are horrible skill-lite at best. Usually it boils down to map knowledge and ability to see the guy before he sees you....oh and whoever can spray and pray faster.
Comments
Play quake without crosshairs and hover 20 feet above your player.
Or stand 10 feet back from your monitor.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Pretty much but I have seen claims in the past of pings from Sydney to San Jose around 140ms, not substantiated mind you. Might happen in very special circumstances like a direct connect. But for the consumer and business markets 180 plus is the limit.
I really like most of your post. But, dang, its hard to read.
However, the reason you have /face is because you don't have a radar that in are in most FPS.
If you think positioning isn't important in lock-on target, then you never played a mid healer or any ranged class for that matter. There is a constant battle between being effective, overextending, and trying not to be an obvious target.
same with tab targetting games, it just has you hit tab before you begin mashing.
What tab targetting does is relieve you of tracking your target and lowers the skill required to maintain a focus on the same target.
It makes the games easier for people who have a hard time keeping track of a target WHILE ALSO keeping track of all the other apects of gameplay.
Tab targetting lowers the potential skill cap in a game and the only reason to do that is to make the game more accessible to the lowest common denominator.
Deth to you ALL!
Besides the apparent 100% decapitation success rate.
-The "this takes skill and that doesn't" comments add nothing to the discussion. Nor do the comments accusing any players of being "kiddies." Come on, this isn't a thread about Stealth!
-"Tab targetting" doesn't refer to the literal use of Tab to acquire a target, but rather to the selection of a target (by tab or click) and the automatic aim of a skill or ability at that target. As opposed to aiming a skill or ability at an area or in a direction which the intended target may or may not inhabit. At least that's the way I understand it... am I wrong?
-I don't believe either system requires more or less skill, nor do I believe one system is inheirantly better than the other. I would prefer a tab-target component at the least because it allows for greater complexity and sophistication of skills and abilites including combinations and chains.
-Free form targetting restricts the level of complexity in that it makes it much easier to miss landing a skill or ability, thus destroying the opportunity to land any type of combination or chain. This will make necessary the more spammable nature of skills and, quite probably, a reduced repertoire of skills and abilities.
-Latency will ALWAYS be a huge issue in PvP. Mitigating its effect is paramount to a successful game. Tab-targetting has a greater ability to mitigate the effects of latency, afaik.
-I'm not opposed to a kind of hybrid system. In actuality, DAoC had a hybrid system in that some skills were "ground target" spells and thus mimicked a "free form" targeting system, in a sense. I hate to make this comparison, but think of LoL... it uses a kind of hybrid system, albeit in a different type of play where LoS issues are not as prevalent.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
It means nothing. I've always been amazed that people manage to use the phrase 'skill-based' and MMO in the same sentence without laughing.
No. As a person who has played and enjoyed both genres I can gladly inform you of your bias opinion.
If you notice, none of these non "tab targetting" games ever use more than a handful of skills.
P.S. "Tab targetting" is not a system of a game. It is an option, a tool, for the player.
Perhaps the biggest myth in MMORPG gaming is that a game like TERA takes more 'skill' than a game like WoW.
Its true to a certain extent, for the beginner. Someone not used to gaming at all will pick up WoW better than TERA. However when we get to an intermediate player, things stat to even out. And when it comes to the master players...well a game like WoW has about 20 valid PvP classes (Ret Paladin vs Holy Paladin might as well be two different classes for instance). To be a top PvPer you need to know those classes inside and out, all their situational abilities, all their cooldowns. When you compare WoW and TERA, the class complexity just cant compare. TERA's classes are more basic, and there are fewer of them.
Then you look at a game like DAoC, and its 40+ classes and different possible builds for each. Thats a lot to know, and to be good you have to know it all.
And its not like a game like WoW is any less mobile. And anyone who says something like 'pressing 1-2-3' is confirmed to be clueless about the subject, because unless you are facing a complete idiot there is no such thing as a rotation in PvP. (There is rarely a rotation in PvE either, its a priority system and the fight often throws off any rhythm you might have with it anyway).
When people use the term "skill based" it refers mainly to the skill of player in terms of twitch abilities, aiming, quick thinking, etc.
Tab-target/hotkey systems do take some skill to use, and generally yes, they do have more "abilities"t to use.
However they lack any kind of twitch plaer focused abilitiy, need to aim, keep your target oriented, etc.
A skill based system generally means that you, as the player, are the one who has to aim and thus it's your "player skill" that comes into play, hence the "skill" part in skill based.
Also for people talking about latency, In this day and age most mmo's generally have good servers located in most major countries, from servers on the west/mid/east coast in the US, to Australia/NZ servers, servers in the UK/Russia, etc.
If you make the choice to play on another countries server having higher latency is one offs, it's your choice to do so but don't punish other people by wanting game mechanics to be heled back because you choose to do that.
If games were all still built for 56k modem connections still you'd probably be just as annoyed too by the lack of things moving forward.
Why do you guys get hung up that no tab targetting, or free aim, or the ability to freely dodge attacks(like in Tera) means you have to have LESS class choices, abilities, and other things?
Having combat even close to Tera with it's dodging mechanics and the melee ability to "hit" things that aren't specificlaly targetted on, in no way means that you have to hav ethe same classes, an dabilities deisgn as tera, that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COMBAT.
Just like WoW, if they wanted, go move to a fre eaim system, have dodging and till have hte same exact classes they have no and all the abilties, etc.
They are not exclusive to each other, do some of you not get this?
/salute
My point was what "twitch" players consider skill - I do not. I play both styles of games (FPS and Tab) and neither of them require any more skill than the other. To believe otherwise is frankly bias. They are just different. It is disheartening to see so many adamant "twitch" players actually believe those type of games have an Olymipic level skill cap.
Like I said, and as you stated, there is the assumption that, "generally" these game have less complex relationships between the abilities. That means the developers have made a choice to include more simple abilities. Not that the system inherently require less intellectual skill. The same stale skill relationships can be programmed into a tab-target system; just as complex relationships can be used in a free-targeting system. Tab-targeting is not inherently more skill based in what it offers to the dynamics of combat, and I would argue, but not here, that it handicaps the potential of a combat system. A player who takes the complexities of a hybrid system at face value sees little more correlation than I must do A to get B, but a good player will be able to react to missing A by using C to setup B while jockeying for proper position.
You're right, as you introduce more cognitive stressors, you increase demand on the player and expand the talent needed beyond solely twitch or intellectual gameplay to a combination of both. Maybe we don't agree on this, but I think all one or the other is less successful than a combination of the two. Tab-targeting is little more than a rotation with small deviations to account for the opposition's skill activations. Add in a twitch mechanic to an existing complex skill system and you maintain the necessity for a thorough understanding of ability interaction, plus reward the player who can use and land the appropriate skills while maintaining position/planning movement.
I generally don't like to mention other games in discussions like these, but refer to something like GW2 that has the addition of rapid movement (twitch) to its tab-target combat system. The player now has to understand how his class/build will interact against the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent, control his character's movement in anticipation of the next events, and also understand his skills well enough to have a "plan B" in case one of his abilities fails to land or his target is able to gain a favorable position.
There are two factors that make a lesser focus on twitch based combat a better option for MMOs:
1. Latency
2. MMOs are geared towards longer play times (fatigue)
I don't disagree with that opinion. Truth be told, I am prepared to lose fights due to latency if that is the cost of a more intense and immersive combat system, and I've never experience fatigue outside of a FPS, but I totally understand what you are saying and can see how that could be an issue. Having said that, I have to put my opinion out there and debate some of the opposing views in the best interest of the game. I'm prepared to enjoy whatever system gets elected.
This is a great post. In regards to the GTAoE spells, those are a bit different, since it covers an area of effect, the player isn't required to aim as much, and doesn't necessarily have to center his AoE effect upon an enemy player.
people really like boring ass auto everything combait,
i rather aim and fire then have it home and a dice roll determining if ive hit or not...
Auto everything combat? Just because you don't have to always aim and mash a button in tab targeting games doesn't mean it is only "boring ass auto everything." Seriously, what an uninformed assumption. Humanity can be quite frustrating.
Yea, dwarf's post really has no basis in reality, anyways, I think free-form targeting sounds better on paper, but tab-targeting is actually better in practice (with MMO's), that's why all the new MMO'ers, First Persion Shooter players, and Single Player RPG's players, are demaning free-form targeting, in games where it makes sense, it's cool, not in MMORPG's...
I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP. The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping.. do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work? Answer truthfully.
Each action has to be translated from server to client and back to server. Each individual player's computer has to draw the polygons, display the spell effects, and communicate to the server in relationship with other player clients. It's a recipe for disaster, even if this is 2013.
I'd be surprised if more than 50% of the people asking for true action "aiming" combat played Dark Age of Camelot back when the average user had an 800mhz with 512mb of ram and a video card that is on average as powerful as the most mediocre low end 'gaming ready' laptop that doesn't have an actual video card inside it.
It truly boggles my mind. I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2.
It's also important to note that the primary MMO that people are referencing, TERA, was originally a South Korean MMO. What specifically differs in South Korea compared to North American style games across practically all genres types? APM. If you've never heard of it, it's called Action Per Minute.
Here's a video:
Sure, it's a video showing Starcraft APM .. but it's still rather relevant. Korean ported MMOs typically play completely different verse North American alternatives. Is it a 'wrong' format? Absolutely not, but it heavily supports the 'run around like an idiot circle strafing' style of play.
This discussion truly boggles my mind. I can certainly get behind a combination system that involves tab targeting and the chances of dodging/blocking based on timing movements like Guild Wars 2. But, I really, really feel that the same people that are asking for aiming systems have no clue on how game development/programming or network infrastructures even work. I really, really hope Mark Jacobs makes an announcement regarding specifics on the combat engine soon.
DAoC - RIP
don't forget rocking the OP shit!
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.