I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard? Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!
I loved Daoc better than any game to date. BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc. There.
Yeah, your right Tera's combat system is better than DAOC's if you like first person shooters. If you like RPG's then you should be leaning toward DAOC's side of the spectrum away from the MMOFPS/RPG blend crap we've seen in recent years.
Don't label your own prefered playstyle as others. I love RPG's but i love them more when they aren't dumbed down because of antiquated server code, because things have advanced, developers now have the option to add twitch based combat to MMO's, it's just lazy gits that choose not too.
In the glory days of MMOs tab-targetting didn't exist, it was invented by Everquest, but UO sure didn't use it and that came before and I would say the targeting system in UO was better/more realistic
I have no problem with the next great MMO requiring hardcore hardware. If the experience requires it so be it.
20 years ago online gaming did not exist. Then you mention DAoC... 10 years ago... Now go try planetside2 if you wanna see what is today's online massive gaming...
I'm not a hard fan of the game at all but the technical prowess is very very inspiring for the future.
So now... about the APM part... oh no nvm... I don't feel like feeding the troll anymore...
EDIT : re-reading I'd also like to point out how this guy finishs his thread saying that, anyway, poeples thinking differently got no ideas what they are talking about...
Seriously? Because we have different opinions and I provide examples of why I think the way I do and you have the nerve to call me a troll? I'll admit I bit of narrow mindedness in regards to a targeting system because tab targeting has and always will, work fluidly. In my opinion, just like yours, FPS does not belong in RPG. A hybrid FPS/RPG system is something that most certainly could be considered, like an evolved version of Guild Wars 2 system, but to continuously give examples of this action based system in MMOFPS games that would work in MMORPGs is asinine. It's apples to oranges, man.
The last thing I will comment toward you is you're right about the technical prowess lacking in DAoC in today's standards. People thought that several years ago; even requested it in an expansion. I'm personally not asking for a straight up copy of DAoC's system, but something that utilizes that as a basis and builds up from there.
Originally posted by SysFail
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
I don't think the people that are asking for true action combat mechanics understand the system at all in a game designed for very large scale PvP. The system might work fluidly in a PvE game, but when there's 100 plus people are all moving, casting, attacking, and jumping.. do you guys HONESTLY think an action based system is going to work? Answer truthfully.
Thanks for pointing this out to me, Sysfail. You did what Vindicar should have done instead of throwing the title 'troll' around because someone disagrees with you. Very interesting! After reading the comments, it looks like literally the entire server was involved. That's pretty cool.
After reading the comments, it supports my part of my original argument that Vindicar thought was trolling: Why isn't Darkfall and TERA extremely popular in North America? Is it certain pitfalls in design, or is it specifically the action aim combat system that the majority of MMO players don't want to use while playing an MMORPG? It makes a man wonder.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
I mean does anyone wanna go on the record as saying that Tera is more awesome than DAOC in this regard? Again, get your FPS out or my RPG!!!
I loved Daoc better than any game to date. BUT Tera's combat system is better than Daoc. There.
Yeah, your right Tera's combat system is better than DAOC's if you like first person shooters. If you like RPG's then you should be leaning toward DAOC's side of the spectrum away from the MMOFPS/RPG blend crap we've seen in recent years.
Don't label your own prefered playstyle as others. I love RPG's but i love them more when they aren't dumbed down because of antiquated server code, because things have advanced, developers now have the option to add twitch based combat to MMO's, it's just lazy gits that choose not too.
"dumbed down"? "antiquated server code"? come back when you understand the real argument here:
playstyle preferences.
And it seems that most people prefer traditional combat as the basis of combat. It has nothing to do with 'advanced technology'. If you thnk twitch = advanced you are 100% wrong. twitch = different, not advanced.
After reading the comments, it supports my part of my original argument that Vindicar thought was trolling: Why isn't Darkfall and TERA extremely popular in North America? Is it certain pitfalls in design, or is it specifically the action aim combat system that the majority of MMO players don't want to use while playing an MMORPG? It makes a man wonder.
I think its that they both are pretty terrible more than anything else. TERA isnt exactly a smash hit in korea either.
However, the communities of pure action based combat games seem to be all pretty atrocious, don't know if its correlation or causation though.
You could speculate that the action combat draws an undesirable crowd. Don't know if you would be right or wrong though.
I think its that they both are pretty terrible more than anything else. TERA isnt exactly a smash hit in korea either.
However, the communities of pure action based combat games seem to be all pretty atrocious, don't know if its correlation or causation though.
You could speculate that the action combat draws an undesirable crowd. Don't know if you would be right or wrong though.
Well said, sir. Mark Jacobs wants to create an incredible community inside Camelot Unchained. You're right about certain styles of game play drawing undesirable crowds.. whether or not pure action based games do it or not, it's pretty certain that several of the new 'popular' games on the market have hidious communities.
World of Warcraft and Starcraft communities in particular have the worst gaming communities I've ever seen in my life.. if you disagree, you're instantly a troll. If you've never ran a dungeon before, you're a complete noob; if your gear isn't high enough, you need to l2p. Anonymity without CSR police is a devasting thing for communities. This is entirely a different argument and you hit it, it's speculation. Good post, though.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
I personally like the hybrid action/tab target system from GW2.
I would have preferred TERA's combat if there wasn't an animation lock.
I would LOVE an open world game with Vindictus's over-the-top combat.
That said, being tab-target based doesn't mean that it's bad...it's how the combat system fits with the rest of the game's systems.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Canan nailed it. I can't wait to play CU with all the old-schoolers.
Quick thought: Role-Playing Games involve playing a role. Seems like an overly-simplistic thing to say, but I think people forget this sometimes.
You are playing the role of a character. The abilities and skills and powers of that character matter. Twitch games tend to downplay this, and thus cease to be rpgs. They just tack on the genre name because they, say, have a fantasy setting.
Imho, tab-targetting is more in line with a role-playing game because your character's skills that you have built up and worked hard on should matter. Being the brains behind the brawn is what made DAoC such a good system. It allowed players to think tactically by providing a system that facilitated such a thing, as opposed to hoping players act tactically whilst promoting twitchy, spazzy, fps shenanigans.
Originally posted by PerfArt Canan nailed it. I can't wait to play CU with all the old-schoolers.
Quick thought: Role-Playing Games involve playing a role. Seems like an overly-simplistic thing to say, but I think people forget this sometimes.
You are playing the role of a character. The abilities and skills and powers of that character matter. Twitch games tend to downplay this, and thus cease to be rpgs. They just tack on the genre name because they, say, have a fantasy setting.
Imho, tab-targetting is more in line with a role-playing game because your character's skills that you have built up and worked hard on should matter. Being the brains behind the brawn is what made DAoC such a good system. It allowed players to think tactically by providing a system that facilitated such a thing, as opposed to hoping players act tactically whilst promoting twitchy, spazzy, fps shenanigans.
Just, like, my opinion, man.
And it's a good one, you hit on some definitely great points...
As it's been said before, twitch-based makes it feel like you're playing an FPS, in a fantasy world, whereas tab-targeting feels a lot more like a REAL RPG. Afterall, RPG's did evolve from the table-top "Role-Playing Games", like D&D, and while tab-targeting is real-time combat, as opposed to turn-based, it's stll a lot more similar to the way the actual RPG genre works, vs. the say, FPS.
Originally posted by rogue187 you feel u should be swinging at what your faced?holy epiphony...like it isn't logic..i vfully support you previous poster...guesss what..u lazy , auto attack and go off to make a sandwich in real life so why would anything made to mimic it allow it? lazy ppl rts guru is calling...stop posying and hindering progress danke
I play RTS's for the experience they offer, I play BF3 or other FPS's for those experiences. I play TES games for their experience, and I played MMO's beginning in 2002 for the experience they offered.The latter is the only genre people want to change into something else entirely. Why not create a new genre for that or expand an existing one that was intended to offer that to begin with? Progress has killed what made this genre great to begin with IMO.
MMORPGS are not defined by their combat. The mmo genre is not some "fixed" genre that can only be made with one formula. Just as you have fps games like Call of duty that are focused on that cinematic, heavily scripted popcorn action style vs other fps, like Bioshock that are more focused on the characters/art and more open gameplay.
The first generation of mmo's all offered something DIFFERENT then each other. Ultima Online was VASTLY different compared to Everquest, just as they both were vastly different compared to Asherons Call.
The main "mmo" formula was bascially copied from EQ, with it's "themepark" design of the world/quests focus and the trinty class makeup, and I for one preferred UO over EQ, and we haven't gotten an mmo quite like that minus a few Indie game attempts (Darkfall/Mortal online).
Originally posted by time007
Yeah, your right Tera's combat system is better than DAOC's if you like first person shooters. If you like RPG's then you should be leaning toward DAOC's side of the spectrum away from the MMOFPS/RPG blend crap we've seen in recent years.
I wasn't aware rpgs were defined by thier combat. Here I was thinking rpgs were about building a character and shaping them how you wish
You do know that DAOC's combat, is not ike earlier more normal crpgs right? The whole tab-target /hotkey system is not really the same as many of the classic rpgs?
It plays nothing like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape torment, etc which by many are considered some of the best rpgs. Yet DAOC, which is also an rpg, the combat is not that similar.
God Forbid we can like more then one style of game , and some of us prefer to allow mor eplayer input in terms of aiming and such, because we find it more fun the tab target.
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Thanks for pointing this out to me, Sysfail. You did what Vindicar should have done instead of throwing the title 'troll' around because someone disagrees with you. Very interesting! After reading the comments, it looks like literally the entire server was involved. That's pretty cool.
After reading the comments, it supports my part of my original argument that Vindicar thought was trolling: Why isn't Darkfall and TERA extremely popular in North America? Is it certain pitfalls in design, or is it specifically the action aim combat system that the majority of MMO players don't want to use while playing an MMORPG? It makes a man wonder.
Darkfall is a tiny indie developed mmorpg, it has hardly any marketing for it and mostly word of mouth to go on. There's just no way it can compete against other big mmo's from the likes of EA/Activision, etc.
Tera on the other hand......great combat system.....and that's about it. Generic mmo quests, boring as hell, combat is fun but the rest of the game drags it all down. It's pretty much abotu as generic an mmo you can get outside of combat, and many people are tired of that same formula over and over. As I said before, if it's basically like WoW, people aren't going to leave WoW and stick with it, they'll either drop it (Because they are bored of that same formula) or go back to WoW (where they've already invested 100's of hours with people they know).
Originally posted by PerfArt Canan nailed it. I can't wait to play CU with all the old-schoolers.
Quick thought: Role-Playing Games involve playing a role. Seems like an overly-simplistic thing to say, but I think people forget this sometimes.
You are playing the role of a character. The abilities and skills and powers of that character matter. Twitch games tend to downplay this, and thus cease to be rpgs. They just tack on the genre name because they, say, have a fantasy setting.
Imho, tab-targetting is more in line with a role-playing game because your character's skills that you have built up and worked hard on should matter. Being the brains behind the brawn is what made DAoC such a good system. It allowed players to think tactically by providing a system that facilitated such a thing, as opposed to hoping players act tactically whilst promoting twitchy, spazzy, fps shenanigans.
Just, like, my opinion, man.
So by that standard you think that Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, TES games (Post Morrowind) , Deus Ex series, Vampire: TMB, Mass Effect series, Mount and Blade series, Kingdoms of Amalur, nor Arx Fatalis are rpgs?
RPGS are not defined by their combat, you can have action combat and sitll be an rpg. Almost all of the games I mentioned above still have "character building" they just allow you, as the player, to have more control in combat and affect aiming and other elements that other rpgs restrict.
Originally posted by Qallidexz
And it's a good one, you hit on some definitely great points...
As it's been said before, twitch-based makes it feel like you're playing an FPS, in a fantasy world, whereas tab-targeting feels a lot more like a REAL RPG. Afterall, RPG's did evolve from the table-top "Role-Playing Games", like D&D, and while tab-targeting is real-time combat, as opposed to turn-based, it's stll a lot more similar to the way the actual RPG genre works, vs. the say, FPS.
A lot of early rpgs were inspiried by Table top games, however table top games were limited because of their very nature. You HAD to roll a dice to do an action, because you need some form of structure for the gameplay and to keep the game moving.
Computers, on the other hand, unlike table top rpgs, are able to simulate things that the die were used for, such as the "to hit" or "miss" rolls.
Games evolve over time. There's a reason most fps games don't play like Doom anymore. Doom was a blast back in it's day, and fun, but technology and games move forward with new things, sometimes for the best, but sometimes for hte worst (IE I miss tactical rpgs, which Dragon Age: Origins was similar to and the upcoming Project Eternity) but at the same time, I also like and enjoy action rpgs.
Limiting youself to one style of rpg is just limiting yourself from some other great games.
Many great rpgs play nothing like those early crpgs, and some are the better for it.
A game like Vampire: TMB would just not have been as good as it was if it had different combat that was more turn-based/old style crpg, the same goes for Deus Ex.
Stiler: those are all very much rpgs... I just personally think in the context of a spiritual successor to DAoC, a less twitchy approach makes sense for fans of said mmorpg. I wasn't trying to say twitchier games CAN'T be rpgs, but just that, by and large, less twitchy games tend to be more Rpg and less rPG.
Originally posted by rogue187 you feel u should be swinging at what your faced?holy epiphony...like it isn't logic..i vfully support you previous poster...guesss what..u lazy , auto attack and go off to make a sandwich in real life so why would anything made to mimic it allow it? lazy ppl rts guru is calling...stop posying and hindering progress danke
I play RTS's for the experience they offer, I play BF3 or other FPS's for those experiences. I play TES games for their experience, and I played MMO's beginning in 2002 for the experience they offered.The latter is the only genre people want to change into something else entirely. Why not create a new genre for that or expand an existing one that was intended to offer that to begin with? Progress has killed what made this genre great to begin with IMO.
MMORPGS are not defined by their combat. The mmo genre is not some "fixed" genre that can only be made with one formula. Just as you have fps games like Call of duty that are focused on that cinematic, heavily scripted popcorn action style vs other fps, like Bioshock that are more focused on the characters/art and more open gameplay.
The first generation of mmo's all offered something DIFFERENT then each other. Ultima Online was VASTLY different compared to Everquest, just as they both were vastly different compared to Asherons Call.
The main "mmo" formula was bascially copied from EQ, with it's "themepark" design of the world/quests focus and the trinty class makeup, and I for one preferred UO over EQ, and we haven't gotten an mmo quite like that minus a few Indie game attempts (Darkfall/Mortal online).
They're not defined by combat you're right about that, but in most cases when it comes to old school MMO's they each featured a turn-based system. I prefer it simply because it slows down the action, making strategy stand out above twitch skills. Skill was based on knowledge and experience rather than fast reflexes, communcation in PVP was key to the experience. The turn-based system allowed for cross guild communication far more than action based combat, which requires all to be on the same Vent/TS server to communicate properly.
It's not just combat people want changed in this genre though, I never said it was.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just to add a little non-argumentative nostalgia: my memories of reading a battlefield, sizing up the enemy force, and tabbing/activating/tabbing/prioritizing/interrupting/ect was such an exciting rhythm to get locked into that it actually felt more immersive and visceral than most action-based rpgs I have played. It had a really great cadence to it that I have not experienced since. To be fair, I have not played Darkfall, though.
I applaud Stiler for being constructive with his arguments and making valid points for his cause. But in the end I hope CU will stay true to the heart of what made DAoC such an innovative and exciting game. Completely (I of course wouldn't mind some changes and tweaks) changing the combat system, in my opinion, would be a very big mistake.
They're not defined by combat you're right about that, but in most cases when it comes to old school MMO's they each featured a turn-based system. I prefer it simply because it slows down the action, making strategy stand out above twitch skills. Skill was based on knowledge and experience rather than fast reflexes, communcation in PVP was key to the experience. The turn-based system allowed for cross guild communication far more than action based combat, which requires all to be on the same Vent/TS server to communicate properly.
It's not just combat people want changed in this genre though, I never said it was.
Ultima Online and Asherons call, which were considered part of the first generation of mmorpgs (aside from merdian 59 which was first) weren't anything like Everquests combat, which is what most mmo's use these days (WoW, etc).
Originally posted by azzamasin Sure as long as if it's a quasi-Tab targetting game similar to GW2. If its gonna be like WoW then it would be a huge mistake, jsut like ArcheAge releasing with tab targeting is a mistake.
id take wow's combat over GW2, smoothness > style. GW2 is the clunkiest POS iv ever played on.
You got to be high.
WoW's combat may be smooth but standing still trading blows and using hidden dice rolls for +hit and +defense is like 30 years old. I'll take New hotness over Old and Busted.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Eyrothath I wouldn't mind seeing something along the lines of Chivalry: Medieval Warfare or War of the Roses
Then why don't you go play those games? I'm asking a serious question.... Why Camelot Unchained, if you prefer games like that?
Maybe he wants an open world style game, with an rpg backround to build up your character and grow throughout the game, which Chilvalry doesn't offer?
Just because people like that combat doesn't mean they don't want the aspects of rpgs that make them fun.
For instance, I love the melee combat in game slike Severance (aka blade of darkness), it offers depth, tactics, and the best "feeling" of any melee combay I've experienced since playing games.
However I love rpgs as well, and games like TES and such would have been much more rewarding from a gameplay perspective if the melee combat was more worthwohile and like Severance, to me at least.
Like one aspect of a game doesn't mean you can't/don't want that aspect in other games, or genres.
Just like people that enjoy driving sims, and wish the car handling/physics in games like GTA were nearly as good as Gran turismo and others.
They're not defined by combat you're right about that, but in most cases when it comes to old school MMO's they each featured a turn-based system. I prefer it simply because it slows down the action, making strategy stand out above twitch skills. Skill was based on knowledge and experience rather than fast reflexes, communcation in PVP was key to the experience. The turn-based system allowed for cross guild communication far more than action based combat, which requires all to be on the same Vent/TS server to communicate properly.
It's not just combat people want changed in this genre though, I never said it was.
Ultima Online and Asherons call, which were considered part of the first generation of mmorpgs (aside from merdian 59 which was first) weren't anything like Everquests combat, which is what most mmo's use these days (WoW, etc).
Neither of which were action games, that aside. I'm not sure where you're going with this TBH. I know each game back then had diversive features, which really has nothing to do with my post, did you read the post i was quoting/replying to?
The guy said older MMO combat is for lazy people, and those of us who enjoyed it are holding the genre back. I disagree because:
When I want fast paced action i turn to games like M&B-Warband, as they simply do it better. Good luck having a good amount of cordination within the game though you'll need vent for that. If you're typing you're dying, or causing others to, as you're essentially asleep at the wheel in a twitch based game, where split second actions actually matter. You don't have this problem in a turn-based system.
The overall point is that they're not designed for "lazy people" as the post i quoted suggested. They serve a distinct purpose (communication), which was what this genre used to be about, that was the underlying point of each offering. Yet not so much any longer, due to this progress some of us want to hold back. Or at least step away from.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by time007 Please use tab targetting like we had in DAOC. None of this real time combat crap. The game is about using spells, styles, attack skills. We don't need anymore "innovation" like tera etc in regards to the targetting system.
Healing would be nothing short of a cluster **** with out tab targeting. Can you imagine trying to heal an 8 man using the Skyrim combat system? LOL. Would not happen.
As had been said earlier, a tab targeting puts the weight on intelligence, an 'action' combat system puts the weight on relfexs. I want this game to use the former. If I wanted to exercise the latter I'd go play BF3 on hardcore mode.
Also, does anyone else not want 'new and more modern' combat mechanics? I liked the old ones just fine, and personally I think everything has sucked since DAoC. I want a game that takes the best of the old and combines it with a bit of the new. Not a new game that hypes to the world that they have the next greatest thing in the MMO world, only to watch it fail spectacturly or not be innovative at all. If it an't broke, don't fix it. Every game in the last 10 years has tried to 'fix it', and in the end only thing they innovated on was getting the combat to appeal to simplier and simplier minds...
Also, does anyone else not want 'new and more modern' combat mechanics? I liked the old ones just fine, and personally I think everything has sucked since DAoC. I want a game that takes the best of the old and combines it with a bit of the new. Not a new game that hypes to the world that they have the next greatest thing in the MMO world, only to watch it fail spectacturly or not be innovative at all. If it an't broke, don't fix it. Every game in the last 10 years has tried to 'fix it', and in the end only thing they innovated on was getting the combat to appeal to simplier and simplier minds...
Bingo. And no, you're definitely not alone in this, it seems like the vast majoirty of the people here, are looking for tab-targetting.
Originally posted by colddog04 People jump around alot in tab-targeted games.
Yea, but it doesn't actually help, that's my point.
In some tab-targeting games it does - especailly the ones where cone of fire is important and the game doesn't auto-facing your toon for you.
Yea, true, that's why I also mentioned that there should be a /face, and /stick command, as there was in DAoC... to make sure it doesn't help when people pull that crap. lol
Comments
Don't label your own prefered playstyle as others. I love RPG's but i love them more when they aren't dumbed down because of antiquated server code, because things have advanced, developers now have the option to add twitch based combat to MMO's, it's just lazy gits that choose not too.
Seriously? Because we have different opinions and I provide examples of why I think the way I do and you have the nerve to call me a troll? I'll admit I bit of narrow mindedness in regards to a targeting system because tab targeting has and always will, work fluidly. In my opinion, just like yours, FPS does not belong in RPG. A hybrid FPS/RPG system is something that most certainly could be considered, like an evolved version of Guild Wars 2 system, but to continuously give examples of this action based system in MMOFPS games that would work in MMORPGs is asinine. It's apples to oranges, man.
The last thing I will comment toward you is you're right about the technical prowess lacking in DAoC in today's standards. People thought that several years ago; even requested it in an expansion. I'm personally not asking for a straight up copy of DAoC's system, but something that utilizes that as a basis and builds up from there.
"dumbed down"? "antiquated server code"? come back when you understand the real argument here:
playstyle preferences.
And it seems that most people prefer traditional combat as the basis of combat. It has nothing to do with 'advanced technology'. If you thnk twitch = advanced you are 100% wrong. twitch = different, not advanced.
I think its that they both are pretty terrible more than anything else. TERA isnt exactly a smash hit in korea either.
However, the communities of pure action based combat games seem to be all pretty atrocious, don't know if its correlation or causation though.
You could speculate that the action combat draws an undesirable crowd. Don't know if you would be right or wrong though.
Well said, sir. Mark Jacobs wants to create an incredible community inside Camelot Unchained. You're right about certain styles of game play drawing undesirable crowds.. whether or not pure action based games do it or not, it's pretty certain that several of the new 'popular' games on the market have hidious communities.
World of Warcraft and Starcraft communities in particular have the worst gaming communities I've ever seen in my life.. if you disagree, you're instantly a troll. If you've never ran a dungeon before, you're a complete noob; if your gear isn't high enough, you need to l2p. Anonymity without CSR police is a devasting thing for communities. This is entirely a different argument and you hit it, it's speculation. Good post, though.
I personally like the hybrid action/tab target system from GW2.
I would have preferred TERA's combat if there wasn't an animation lock.
I would LOVE an open world game with Vindictus's over-the-top combat.
That said, being tab-target based doesn't mean that it's bad...it's how the combat system fits with the rest of the game's systems.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Quick thought: Role-Playing Games involve playing a role. Seems like an overly-simplistic thing to say, but I think people forget this sometimes.
You are playing the role of a character. The abilities and skills and powers of that character matter. Twitch games tend to downplay this, and thus cease to be rpgs. They just tack on the genre name because they, say, have a fantasy setting.
Imho, tab-targetting is more in line with a role-playing game because your character's skills that you have built up and worked hard on should matter. Being the brains behind the brawn is what made DAoC such a good system. It allowed players to think tactically by providing a system that facilitated such a thing, as opposed to hoping players act tactically whilst promoting twitchy, spazzy, fps shenanigans.
Just, like, my opinion, man.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
And it's a good one, you hit on some definitely great points...
As it's been said before, twitch-based makes it feel like you're playing an FPS, in a fantasy world, whereas tab-targeting feels a lot more like a REAL RPG. Afterall, RPG's did evolve from the table-top "Role-Playing Games", like D&D, and while tab-targeting is real-time combat, as opposed to turn-based, it's stll a lot more similar to the way the actual RPG genre works, vs. the say, FPS.
MMORPGS are not defined by their combat. The mmo genre is not some "fixed" genre that can only be made with one formula. Just as you have fps games like Call of duty that are focused on that cinematic, heavily scripted popcorn action style vs other fps, like Bioshock that are more focused on the characters/art and more open gameplay.
The first generation of mmo's all offered something DIFFERENT then each other. Ultima Online was VASTLY different compared to Everquest, just as they both were vastly different compared to Asherons Call.
The main "mmo" formula was bascially copied from EQ, with it's "themepark" design of the world/quests focus and the trinty class makeup, and I for one preferred UO over EQ, and we haven't gotten an mmo quite like that minus a few Indie game attempts (Darkfall/Mortal online).
I wasn't aware rpgs were defined by thier combat. Here I was thinking rpgs were about building a character and shaping them how you wish
You do know that DAOC's combat, is not ike earlier more normal crpgs right? The whole tab-target /hotkey system is not really the same as many of the classic rpgs?
It plays nothing like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape torment, etc which by many are considered some of the best rpgs. Yet DAOC, which is also an rpg, the combat is not that similar.
God Forbid we can like more then one style of game , and some of us prefer to allow mor eplayer input in terms of aiming and such, because we find it more fun the tab target.
Darkfall is a tiny indie developed mmorpg, it has hardly any marketing for it and mostly word of mouth to go on. There's just no way it can compete against other big mmo's from the likes of EA/Activision, etc.
Tera on the other hand......great combat system.....and that's about it. Generic mmo quests, boring as hell, combat is fun but the rest of the game drags it all down. It's pretty much abotu as generic an mmo you can get outside of combat, and many people are tired of that same formula over and over. As I said before, if it's basically like WoW, people aren't going to leave WoW and stick with it, they'll either drop it (Because they are bored of that same formula) or go back to WoW (where they've already invested 100's of hours with people they know).
So by that standard you think that Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, TES games (Post Morrowind) , Deus Ex series, Vampire: TMB, Mass Effect series, Mount and Blade series, Kingdoms of Amalur, nor Arx Fatalis are rpgs?
RPGS are not defined by their combat, you can have action combat and sitll be an rpg. Almost all of the games I mentioned above still have "character building" they just allow you, as the player, to have more control in combat and affect aiming and other elements that other rpgs restrict.
A lot of early rpgs were inspiried by Table top games, however table top games were limited because of their very nature. You HAD to roll a dice to do an action, because you need some form of structure for the gameplay and to keep the game moving.
Computers, on the other hand, unlike table top rpgs, are able to simulate things that the die were used for, such as the "to hit" or "miss" rolls.
Games evolve over time. There's a reason most fps games don't play like Doom anymore. Doom was a blast back in it's day, and fun, but technology and games move forward with new things, sometimes for the best, but sometimes for hte worst (IE I miss tactical rpgs, which Dragon Age: Origins was similar to and the upcoming Project Eternity) but at the same time, I also like and enjoy action rpgs.
Limiting youself to one style of rpg is just limiting yourself from some other great games.
Many great rpgs play nothing like those early crpgs, and some are the better for it.
A game like Vampire: TMB would just not have been as good as it was if it had different combat that was more turn-based/old style crpg, the same goes for Deus Ex.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
They're not defined by combat you're right about that, but in most cases when it comes to old school MMO's they each featured a turn-based system. I prefer it simply because it slows down the action, making strategy stand out above twitch skills. Skill was based on knowledge and experience rather than fast reflexes, communcation in PVP was key to the experience. The turn-based system allowed for cross guild communication far more than action based combat, which requires all to be on the same Vent/TS server to communicate properly.
It's not just combat people want changed in this genre though, I never said it was.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Ultima Online and Asherons call, which were considered part of the first generation of mmorpgs (aside from merdian 59 which was first) weren't anything like Everquests combat, which is what most mmo's use these days (WoW, etc).
Then why don't you go play those games? I'm asking a serious question.... Why Camelot Unchained, if you prefer games like that?
You got to be high.
WoW's combat may be smooth but standing still trading blows and using hidden dice rolls for +hit and +defense is like 30 years old. I'll take New hotness over Old and Busted.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Maybe he wants an open world style game, with an rpg backround to build up your character and grow throughout the game, which Chilvalry doesn't offer?
Just because people like that combat doesn't mean they don't want the aspects of rpgs that make them fun.
For instance, I love the melee combat in game slike Severance (aka blade of darkness), it offers depth, tactics, and the best "feeling" of any melee combay I've experienced since playing games.
However I love rpgs as well, and games like TES and such would have been much more rewarding from a gameplay perspective if the melee combat was more worthwohile and like Severance, to me at least.
Like one aspect of a game doesn't mean you can't/don't want that aspect in other games, or genres.
Just like people that enjoy driving sims, and wish the car handling/physics in games like GTA were nearly as good as Gran turismo and others.
Neither of which were action games, that aside. I'm not sure where you're going with this TBH. I know each game back then had diversive features, which really has nothing to do with my post, did you read the post i was quoting/replying to?
The guy said older MMO combat is for lazy people, and those of us who enjoyed it are holding the genre back. I disagree because:
When I want fast paced action i turn to games like M&B-Warband, as they simply do it better. Good luck having a good amount of cordination within the game though you'll need vent for that. If you're typing you're dying, or causing others to, as you're essentially asleep at the wheel in a twitch based game, where split second actions actually matter. You don't have this problem in a turn-based system.
The overall point is that they're not designed for "lazy people" as the post i quoted suggested. They serve a distinct purpose (communication), which was what this genre used to be about, that was the underlying point of each offering. Yet not so much any longer, due to this progress some of us want to hold back. Or at least step away from.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In some tab-targeting games it does - especailly the ones where cone of fire is important and the game doesn't auto-facing your toon for you.
+1
Healing would be nothing short of a cluster **** with out tab targeting. Can you imagine trying to heal an 8 man using the Skyrim combat system? LOL. Would not happen.
As had been said earlier, a tab targeting puts the weight on intelligence, an 'action' combat system puts the weight on relfexs. I want this game to use the former. If I wanted to exercise the latter I'd go play BF3 on hardcore mode.
Also, does anyone else not want 'new and more modern' combat mechanics? I liked the old ones just fine, and personally I think everything has sucked since DAoC. I want a game that takes the best of the old and combines it with a bit of the new. Not a new game that hypes to the world that they have the next greatest thing in the MMO world, only to watch it fail spectacturly or not be innovative at all. If it an't broke, don't fix it. Every game in the last 10 years has tried to 'fix it', and in the end only thing they innovated on was getting the combat to appeal to simplier and simplier minds...
Bingo. And no, you're definitely not alone in this, it seems like the vast majoirty of the people here, are looking for tab-targetting.
Yea, true, that's why I also mentioned that there should be a /face, and /stick command, as there was in DAoC... to make sure it doesn't help when people pull that crap. lol