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There are no raids... can you live with that?
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One, you are assuming people age the same way. Two, you are assuming people's tastes remain the same as they age.
No, it's the fact that you guys think that solo / casual gaming is the antithesis of socializing and that is incredibly ignorant.
No its 100% fact. You aren't socializing by yourself, duh. Faceroll dungeons never need any sort of communication, not even chat FFS. Nevemind REAL communication like on voice communication programs. Everyone you play with are strangers, and forgotten with 5 seconds after leaving the group.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should watch a fraps of LFR in WOW prior to the loot fix. It was like watching starved cage beast fight over meat.
Its the perfect in game system. The casuals would never go for it though because they are at their core entitilist. They would rather see this game devolve into just another obscure mmo than to submit that time, effort, and group coordination should yield more results than farming ore.
They would like nothing better than just another wow clone permalocked on mickey mouse mode, and no real end game to speak of.
Thats a rather broad brush you are painting with there... I could just as well say that raiders are at their core, control freaks, who have tied their self worth into achievements in a video game... Neither of course, would be the truth. Some so called "casuals" are suffering from a serious entitlement complex. Just as some raiders, are total control freak, nut cases.
But I'd say that many of both groups are just looking for entertainment, not a second job. But entertainment is different things to different people. I fell off of the raiding band wagon years ago. I lack the patience and extended focus required for it. I also gave up on heroics. Which means that I tend to do the normal dungeons a few times (to see the content) and then go play something else.
The new scenarios are one of my favorite parts of 5.2. They are actually fun to me, and the reward box allows me to at least partially gear up my characters. Which gets them ready for the next expansion, when ever that comes out. Then the gear grind starts all over again. But thats the nature of these games.
Maybe you don't and you should look into that, but when I solo, I am constantly chatting and running into people and interacting with them via chat or run by buffs and heals or temporarily helping with combat. There's the whole crafting dynamic that is solo oriented, yet completely social dependent. If anything is killing social aspects of a game, it's the switch to fast paced action combat, which makes it physically impossible to communicate via keyboard while adventuring solo or grouped.
By the way, you have to show some real proof before you start spouting stuff like 100% fact. It's one thing to say something is likely to happen as a result of something else and it's quite another to jump on your soap box and screaming "Facts" at the top of your voice.
I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.
And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion.
Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.
That is not socializing... I actually feel bad for you after reading that...
Raiding is crucial for making new content for you too... If its not in the game, it can't last. You won't get new content, if they dont get money.
The casuals have ruined every single potential MMO since WoW. You make up the masses, and the devs cater to you and it always ruins the game. You end up with some easy mickey mouse wow knockoff that isn't even worth more than a couple months of your time.
No, I feel sorry for you for having such a narrow and jaded view on what is and is not socializing.
Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level
Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level
Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level
Random chat in general to random people is barely socializing. This is little better than buying things on the AH. Thats how low the bar you just set is. If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.
How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing? You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that. Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.
If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.
Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^ No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^ <face palm>
The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now. But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for. I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline. Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.
New to modern MMOs? If they are modern, then by definition everyone is new to them.... So yah, what does this mean?
What is it you guys want? A fight so easy you can have tea and crumpets in the middle, as you talk about the weather in chat? Maybe pretend you are troll, and do some lame ass role playing?
No social spects in recent mmos. Well of course there isn't, you are a casual, and you play casual mmos. Casual mmos don't require co-op as they are faceroll easy, thus you aren't required to actually socialize with other players. Challenging encounters require you to talk to other players.
Communication discipline?! What i s that? If you get in vent with douchebags, then you leave. Its that simple. FInd a new mature guild.
You are clueless and it is obviously pointless to argue with you any further. If you cannot or will not see that interacting with people in an online game in a positive manner is a fulfillment of the social contract, then nothing is going to persuade or convince you.
I can chat in D3, but it doesn't make it an MMO or give the same MMO experience. Chatting with strangers is socializing, but its the absolute bare minimum interaction possible.
Why not just call them open-world raids? That's what they are. EQ1 and EQ2 has them. WoW has them. GW2 has them. etc. And yeah, it gets annoying when people think "instances" are dirty. Instanced dungeons were created because of all the pitfalls of open-world content, such as; griefing, mob-tagging, lag, trains, etc.
Oh, thats the whole reason why ultra hardcore MMOs are doing so good. I mean all top MMOs are nothing but ultra hardcore.
Give us a break
There are games that cater to your needs. Those are ultra niche games. You know why are those ultra niche? Because thats how many people want to play them.
Uh, no. Instances were created by bad designers would needed a bandaid for their bad game.
No instances were needed in DAoC. And griefing? Its just as likely to happen in the open world, but people don't scream to instance the entire game, do they? And lag was NEVER a reason for instancing.
Instancing was the beginning of the end for the MMO genre. It has never once been necessary in a game that was designed properly.
see, thats where you fail completely: you cannot discern what is "social" and what is "anti-social"
theres no such thing as "forced socializing". Theres already a term for that: anti-social. Its the most asburd concept people like you bring up all the time.
Bringing old concepts back to life will not happen. Why? because those died for a reason.
You know why all WoW clones fail? They bring nothing new in the core to the table. Staleness kills them, not absence of dead concepts (those would actually only speed up the process)
Theres no AAA MMO that will cater to you. The sooner you make peace with that, the sooner your games of choice will be more in line with your needs.
I thought all the WoWclones failed and the reason I didn't play them longer than a month was because they tried to clone WoW, but didn't deliver even half of it. I mean, all have focused on stealing the WoW-casuals (who don't have a need to quit it) instead of the tens of millions who used to play wow for years and are looking for a similar game, which is quite a large percent in those million account you see at every wowclone release. But I guess you are the expert.
Most of the people who jump on these wowclones in every few months don't want to play mmorpg's that only offer barely a month of gameplay total, which is what they always end up getting from those pro AAA's in the last 5 years. And that's what they will probably end up getting from ESO.
There aren't any hardcore mmorpg's on the market that aren't 10+ years old titles and which aren't below the AAA standards (eve is the only one and that one is doing damn well, but I wouldn't really even call eve hardcore, it's only hardcore on the time requirement, nothing else). Not because there isn't a market for them, but because publishers don't want to take risks with their millions of dollars when they can simply milk the average player crowd, rememer that if you make a hardcore game for only hardcore players and you make it unappealing to the hardcore, then who the hell is going to buy your product, most of the failure projects just attempt to appeal to everyone, but fail to do so resulting them to appeal to nobody - i mean a beef,chocolate,majonaise,milk,cherry,vodka mixed coctail is just dung. If a quality hardcore mmorpg with permadeath would come out that would actually deliver, it could be as large as WoW without any doubt, because there are hundreds of millions of people out there already who have played or would play mmorpg's, but there just isn't enough choice. Like for instance, mmorpg is my favourite game and WoW was my favourite mmorpg, but I would rather play no mmorpg's at all for the next 20 years than play something that's under my standards or requirements. I won't ever even set my foot in the trashbin that it is now.
Like WoW for instance changes its entire wow playerbase with pretty much each expansion with a new one. There is a market for those ~10 million people (random number) who quit wow every 2 years, but most of that market won't want to play any games again that meet the same standards as the wow from which they quit.
You know, let me make you an example. When Camelot Unchained will come out, let me tell you. It will have about 2-4 million people buying it at the release. Most of them will be players who loved DaoC or just couldn't play it at the time, but loved the gameplay and concept. And you know what? If the game won't deliver as they did with DaoC or will just anyhow make a shit product, people will stop playing it. Easy as that. And the game will be marked as failure. Does that mean that there is no market anymore for DaoC players? NO. IT MEANS THAT THE GAME WAS JUST CRAP.
When I played PC games at 90s, I don't know how many titles there were total, but I sure know that about on average (I pirated ofc) I could play pretty much 5 new releases every day for like 6 years straight (this ofc included all the pre90s games). About 80-90% of those games were just garbage. They might have had good production value, but they were just bad. Now these days we have like 10-100x less releases (random value) and you know what? The percent of crap games still is exactly the same as it was 10-20 years ago.
Who in the heck said 'forced socializing'? Just you...
I know what anti-social means, thanks. It has nothing to do with forced sociliazing. Anti-social behavior is a mental disorder in which people withdraw themselves from contact and communication with other people.
What old concepts? Speak english, please. I am guessing you mean raiding, but its completely unclear.
They failed because they catered to the masses, aka casuals, who don't know what they want. They think they want a mickey mouse faceroll mmo, and every dev has oblidged and delievered just that thus far. However, after a few months the masses quit because they get bored, and the game fails. Any unbias source will tell you the same thing.
No one has even come close to copying the model WoW used for success and making a true wow clone. If they had, then that game would be sitting pretty in 2nd place with a healthy subs base. ESO has the chance to do this, but only if they don't cater to the casuals again.
PvP in an MMO Is a niche market.
You know what you are right. The true MMO fans are going to have to make a stand. We are just gonna have to nudge the devs in the right direction! I am going to try to make sure this happens, and I am going to get everyone I can to spam the official forums with this issue constantly to ensure they get the message.
Thx for the idea.
You are quite right about one thing. Theres no mixing of hardcore and casuals. Either you make game for one or the other, theres no middle ground.
And since there are not enough hardcores to support a AAA MMO. Pretty simple. EvE didnt start out as an AAA MMO, it started out as indie project. Do you know how many played EvE at start?
1. Forced socializing is all you talk about
2. No thats not anti-social
3. Its plain English. Concepts that you have to play 10 hours/day to get anywhere, lack of almost any content hidden behind extreme idiotic grinds of same exact stuff over and over again. One thing i love is when people say "EQ filtered all those "not worthy" to play!". Well it filtered out too well, theres was pretty much noone playing when alternatives started to pop up. Just as any hardcore MMO out there.
4. WoW is still strong because it changed over the years, not because its same vanilla WoW
5. They all copied WoW model but it never worked for anything besides WoW, its pretty basic: those who want WoW play WoW
6. If PvP is niche, raiding (hardcore raiding) is ultra niche, its costly to make for almost no return, this is not 2000 when that was a novelty, its 2013 and most people now see that devs were only were fooling around with them, those games werent designed for fun but for milking 15/month in very transparent way.
7. Great, it will be fun to watch, i suggest you start your own project then and get AAA funding. Good luck!