Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
What are you even saying here?
1. Early games were limited by technologies early on. Right. They were. And...?
2. There's no significant difference between devs who do or don't use open world. They're both business ventures for profit. They're also overwhelmingly game ventures for fun!
3. Subscriptions actually apply much better to games-as-a-service than other types of games. Empty player-driven worlds aren't a service. (That's sort of the point!)
Or did I catch your tone wrong with that one? Because you said living, breathing world, and that actually applies a lot more to the types of games getting a constant influx of new content (games) than the ones designed as sandboxes (worlds.) And if this was your intent than my earlier statement (#3) is simply repeating what you said.
4. As for promising a stable future for your character 4 years from now, that's largely determined by game quality (is it fun?)
It's also determined by the competition in the space. It's a bit like vacation destinations. If you live in California like Blizzard there are countless competing vacation destinations within a short drive. You'll visit many. If you live in Iceland like CCP there's not nearly as many destinations within a short drive, so you'll end up visiting the same one over and over.
Similarly, if hundreds of themepark games come out, each having an exciting unique trait, you'd be foolish not to try out plenty of them.
I mean you don't just pick one musician to listen to for the next 10 years, right? (...right?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're spot on, OP, as far as I am concerned.
I do have one minor quibble, a part of your post where I believe you to be factually incorrect. After shipping a game, SOE developers do not quit, at least not of their own accord. The game ships, SOE dials back the resources they devote to the game from 10 to 1, the employees get canned and the quality of content produced after launch takes, as you said, a nose dive.
CCP never did that. CCP has steadily grown their EvE team since launch. They pretty much had to, it was their only product and they weren't in it for the quick cash grab, so they funneled the game's earnings into their team and back into the game.
This is why CCP has been able to mantain EvE at the level they have. It's because they chose to. SOE has never made that choice and the results have been very clear to see, as you documented in your post.
This. I'm excited for some solid info on EQN and WoD. Also interested in how Star Citizen shapes up. I played all of his older games and had a blast. Heck, I played TradeWars 2000, the BBS Door game an insane amount - That particular game wasn't his, but it had many of the same mechanics .. It was about as robust as you could get on a DOOR game.(This was back before the internet for those that don't know what I'm talking about).
Anyway, you are not alone OP. Every 2 or 3 months someone posts a thread about this. There are many that feel the same way.
There are also many people that just want the game. Just want to experience the rides when and where they want to. I think they lean more toward Themepark. It seems logical anyway. Of course there are thousands of in-betweens that have to be considered. Anyways..
Here's hoping that at least one of the up and coming MMORPGs are huge, deep, and full of life.
42.
You know very little behind the working and business dealing of what makes a MMORPG run.
BEFORE ANY MMORPG is built, the developers have to decide on what type of game it is going to be, because the servers that run their gameworld will have to house their world. That decision is not reversable and 2 year into the project, to build new net-code, server structure, etc... would just cost too much and the game would implode...
(It happened with WISH & Shadowbane^)
So, the cost and type of server structure DICTATES the type of game you have. Dictates everything about how the game will be developed and how it will unfold.
Cheap servers.... cheap game. Again, open world games requires server structures that can be 10x higher cost than instanced games.
Today, I can build a cheap instanced game similiar to Allods in a few years and make a quick few million... while not caring one biit about any of my customers, because any WoW'tard will buy a few trinkets in my game. I don't even care if thew game only last 9 months... so long as I get 2~4% of the 10 million wow refugees to try it... I AM PAID..!
So server structure determines how cheap the game will be, what features can be implamented and over-all zeal of the development krew driving the game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Virtual world are more like sandboxy. Mmo games are runs by story.
People who can't find Virtual world (sandboxes) usually tend to have no clue what to do, whilst in an mmo-rpg, theres quests telling you to do this and that. Pretty much to play a Virtual world you need imagination.
Developers aren't making games instead of worlds. They are making arena's instead of worlds.
Pretty much every MMO out right now, including the older ones have been converted to end game arena's. Some PvE some PvP but they are an arena where you face off in a match with a defined foe. In an effort to solve an old problem, node farming, they created a new problem. Arena farming. In an effort to make them "hard" they did the only thing they could. Force grouping.
We the playerbase piss and moan about grind, then condense an entire MMO in to 2-6 'end game instances (arena's)
For Devs. Hide all "good loot" in the "Loot" table. Not based on uber kills but based on the entire playing cycle. If someone wants to farm junk for 2 weeks, diminish returns on high end loot. It prevents monopolies on content. It creates balance in progression. Farm elite content for 2 weeks, lower diminishing returns but diminishing just the same. It's farming and farming is farming. If you want to force something on to gamers, force content, not mechanics. You owe it to yourself. You spent a shit load of time creating that content. None of it should be "junk" content.
I remember stepping into the original EQ and thinking that it was like the old PnP DnD come alive! This was my first MMO experiene and it was amazing to have entered such a vibrant world filled with thousands of other players at the same time!
I agree that loot was something special back then, having camped certain mobs for hours (sometimes days) just to finally get that 1 rare drop. Even though things like that seem tedious today, it really made for a unique community.
What is miss most though is the need to have another players help in a game these days. Most current MMOs leave me with the impression of playing a single player game along side thousands of other players doing the same thing. Unfortunately there's little or no need for player to player communication these days in MMOs
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
You are talking about the mindset of players^, & how most people get lost, or are overwhelmed by their openess... to do anything and go anywhere.. where they are confronted with using their imagination.
That is a slightly different distinction of virtual world, which doesn't nec mean a game world, the correct term is Open World...!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I agree with the OP, but also with some of the things other people say in this thread.
I'm not very active in this site as I used to, but reading this post I felt the need to give my opinion.
Although I totally agree with the problem of giving too many rewards to players, and although I also agree that MMOs today are more of a Game and less then a Virtual World, I think MMORPGs were stale for so long that all the changes right now are the main reasons why players feel so "lost" in the genre. They don't know what MMORPG's stand for anymore, at least in terms of what to expect in their gameplay experience.
The genre is growing steadily with much more players than it had before, in many more games than before, but along with this there are more and more games looking to give motivational and rewarding experiences, because those are the ones that attract the new players each day - yes, I said "day", because games are now on a competitive level where each day might represent the gain and loss of players to the direct competition, and if only 1 day can be a problem to the game itself with a downtime service, a week or a month might be the end of the success of many goals they devs had in mind by giving the wrong updates.
The problem with this is, with so many motivational experiences and rewards, people start getting tired of them and don't know what to do with them all. Many of those rewards become things with no value and the real valuable ones are only possible if you are "a true hardcore" (aka have no life or spend real money) or if you have A LOT OF LUCK.
They also try to give many experiences in terms of different gameplay, but then they create even more rewards and motivational experiences that in less then a month will become "meh" in the middle of so many things to do and get.
In the end, there are so many MMOs creating so many features while looking for the "special one" that motivates all their player base, that all of them end up having the same things over and over again with different skins and with an excessive amount of rewards with no value at all.
The Virtual Worlds the OP talked about is something many MMORPGs are trying to do right now, but it just gets past players when they see the giant list of things to do and get. With so many features, missions, rewards, etc., the players forget all about the Virtual World and start thinking about the Game - to have fun and become good player - and after a while they forget about the Game and start to become focused in best rewards and in beeing the best. When that happens, the MMO is not fun anymore, it's just a "job" (or a filler) untill the next MMO comes again.
And then, the cycle repeats itself.
But It seems we are getting somewhere. To me, it seems each new game is trying to get both of those concepts, a Virtual World and a Game, and with this we might see a final change in the genre in terms of definition.
I don't know if the gerne should be separated in 2 or 3 genres, but to me it seems games will get to a place where the games are finally labelled in the correct genre again, like they were before as MMORPGs.
that is the most accurate comment in the entire thread.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
This is what it all boils down to.
The passion and artistry is almost completely absent from video game development, and man does it ever show.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
1. I've worked in the games industry 12 years. So yeah I actually know quite a lot about what decisions go into making a game (MMORPG or otherwise).
2. Preproduction design decisions exist, yes. They're constrained by technology, yes. But within those constraints is a massive amount of flexibility, so hopefully you're not implying early MMORPGs were dull empty worlds due to tech reasons. They were clearly designed with intent.
3. Let me get this straight: you think developing MMORPGs is cheap, and even without caring about your customers it will be profitable? Do you also believe all developers drive solid gold humvees and no game companies ever go out of business? How can we have a reasonable discussion if this is the kind of stuff you're saying? Do you actually want to be educated, or are you just venting angrily? Normally ignorance at least carries the benefit of bliss.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Lets for arguments sake they build an MMO in which there are no post signs telling you where to go and what to do, you basically have to trial and error your way around to discover them. Some people like the discovery process... problem is, by the time the game goes live there will be 6 wiki pages up telling them exactly when, where, and how to do everything in game. So in essence, that sort of design doesn't exist because the beta testers blab everything about the game before it even ships. Just do a web search on any title and tell me there isn't a playbook for every one of them by launch day.
Quite frankly I am surprised that they haven't just skipped the whole world part and just create instances and be done with it. If end game is all that matters, why even bother with anything before it? People seem perfectly happy farming the same damn instances non-stop for a year... certainly easier to keep pushing out iLvl upgrades and add more instances... just change a few things here and there and bam, you have another dungeon for them to grind. All they want is the next level of gear, that's it... nothing else really matters as long as their character is progressing on that tread mill.
Agree.. but we have failure like wow and trion that cant even do that!
failure? right, show us a game with at least 2 million regular paid customer and then come back to talk about failure.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Yea and I think this speaks to the players more then the design though. Even if those guides are written by a few beta testers into a wiki, or a guide posted on some website, its the players that seek them out. That really speaks to the mentality of the players. If I enter a new MMO, and I don't immediately find the objective for a quest, my mind set isn't okay hit Alt+Tab and google this quest. I like to explore and venture into new areas, reread the quest to make sure I didn't take anything out of context etc, but I think players like my self are the minority or at least modern day players don't prefer that they find it themselves.
I do. I want to do it my self, if I find it, I accomplished something. Reading a guide to me isn't an accomplishment, even if its something really mundane and old like, go find Mankirk's wife, or find whatever X many basic things and bring them back to me, talk to so and so. However it feels like the majority of players in modern times want to have a quest helper built into the interface, they don't want to spend more time then they deem neccessary to complete said quest and if they have to spend it they'd rather "cheat" and read a guide.
The WoW numbers are very missleading. Any game that is decent can keep numbers like that if they did what WoW did upon release.
The sheer fact that Blizzard spent 24 million dollars in just adds and commercials before it was released is nuts. They spent more then other companies spent for their whole production on just adds!
WoW is a good game but it wouldnt even have close to the numbers they have if it wasnt for the millions of dollars they spend on reaching out to get new customers.
Odd, now that you claim experience in the field, you've changed your idealogy..?
Preproduction cost millions... if you design a game to have zones walls and zoning, you cannot later make the decision to make it Open World (& have all the benifits that go with it). You are off your rocker if you think so.
So when you are in PREPRODUCTION, is when you decide if your game is going to be a premium game, charging premium dollars to keep your Open World up... or, free to play, keeping your inexpensive zones/themepark game open.
It is 100% directly related to your severs what game you intend on offering to the people. What server you design in beta, is the same server limitation that will exist 2 years later. That is the limitation of the developer, is his budget.
How can u not understand this.. u think each dev given $40 million uses it as wisely? That they all chose open world servers, instead of cash cow instancing? That is why it is sooooo easy to make a MMO today and why there are so many... even you with 12 years claimed experience, you don't think Des take the $40million and use it cheaply for higher upfront profits, instead over the year revenues?
Lastly, Server technology/net-code has gotten so cheap, that any premium game can use Open World design, yet greedy dev's keep going the 1999 route of zones & instancing.. thus themepark... just cash cows using instancing to make millions off arcade players.
I don't think your capable of breaking down pre-production, production and release of a MMORPG... and all that goes into it.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
There are already virtual worlds.
If you want a virtual world go play Eve, or Darkfall, or 2nd Life (assuming this is still going). While the concept of virtual worlds is very appealing, most players don't ACTUALLY want one. Look at the first 2 games for example. Now, Eve is fairly popular, but it's mostly because of the PvP. Very few people would play Eve if it wasn't for the hardcore pvp. Same deal with Darkfall. Then you look at the complaints of both games. They're very similar. People hate how much 'nothing' exists in both games. The massive time sinks, grinding for mats for an hour. Large open empty spaces.
These things are necessary if you want an open world. A lot of people here seem to want the benefits of having a virtual world but are ignoring the downsides (and yes there are downsides). For a game to go that route sacrifices do get made. Yes, you get way more freedom, but you also often get a much more empty world (at least at first). After all, for these worlds to exist there needs to be room for them to get populated. If there's PvP, there needs to be enough time sinks to make it costly and risky to get those materials you need in the world.
Most players don't have the time or patience for those kinds of games atm. They want the freedom, but don't want to sacrifice anything to get it. People are also pretty heavily game swapping and less likely to stick around to any given MMO atm.
Someone's getting entry-level for their degree. Horrors! Burn the witch!
1. Maybe you'll clarify how I "changed my ideology" later.
2. A zoned themepark is still an open world game. It's a more popular, thus more profitable, type of open world game than a virtual world (which is light on the gameplay, and thus light on players.)
3. Instances are used for a similar reason: instanced gameplay is more fun, and since these devs earn money based on whether they're providing a fun experience to players they're interested in providing that type of gameplay in addition to the open world gameplay. Some instance-only games exist (and are profitable for the same reasons,) but we're not talking about those because we're talking about MMORPGs (which implies players in a large shared space.)
4. Devs are "greedy" insofar as they see like 10 major game companies going out of business these last 12 months and are interested in continuing to eat. Thus, they try to make busines decisions which make them money. One such decision is that when you're in the game business you sell fun games. Without fun, your product has nothing and you starve.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver