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The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.
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No, its not a virtual world if you have SEPARATE games involved at all.
Living in a virtual world - eating, sleeping, drinking, killing, raising pets from babies is a game to me. Raids and other stuff is just a plus that adds move flavor and keeps the world less boring. But the game is designing your own character, his /her /it's clothing and armor, and just LIVING in that world. That is the game. Living.
Everything else is just a plus. Except pvp which is a great big minus sign.
If your first paragraph was for me, then here's a response. If not, then feel free to skip it.
Mostly I agree with what you're saying about the importance of virtual worlds, up to the point that the virtual world side of things is going to take over and be the main focus of game development. Developers have been trying to sell that since the 90s (VRML anyone?) and as a product they just don't sell well. Not without a strong "game" element anyway.
It's the combination of these two things that is what's coming. A strong focus on "game" and the ability to develop a "world". Even the ability to actually integrate the "game" elements into the "world" elements in a way that makes more sense.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It was yes. And I play games that still use VRML/VRMl2.0.
More on topic, virtual worlds are not going to be the main focus of all game development. Just the main part of virtual worlds. And you can't know if it sells well because its never been sold at all. Games have always, from Meridian59 and UO onwards, been the primary focus. Even early UO with its clever tiles and no pvp rules was still a game. It had quests and zones and respawning monsters. Well technically for like the first 3 hours it sorta had a virtual world.
The combo has been there from day 1 and its been shit. WoW with its battle grounds and raids and solo questing was the whole point of my original post.
What needs to happen is that a real virtual world needs to be made, either one of the ones I've dsecribed or some other kind, totally focused on a persistent dynamic world, with only the necessary game elements, like 75% worldy. Instead of the 60%+ games that MMOs have been so far.
Tacking on a world to a game, or even a bunch of games ala WoW, winds up with the world going to shit and then slowly pushing towards separating the games out and abusing instant travel and diablo style match making.
More on topic, virtual worlds are not going to be the main focus of all game development. Just the main part of virtual worlds. And you can't know if it sells well because its never been sold at all. Games have always, from Meridian59 and UO onwards, been the primary focus. Even early UO with its clever tiles and no pvp rules was still a game. It had quests and zones and respawning monsters. Well technically for like the first 3 hours it sorta had a virtual world.
The combo has been there from day 1 and its been shit. WoW with its battle grounds and raids and solo questing was the whole point of my original post.
What needs to happen is that a real virtual world needs to be made, either one of the ones I've dsecribed or some other kind, totally focused on a persistent dynamic world, with only the necessary game elements, like 75% worldy. Instead of the 60%+ games that MMOs have been so far.
Tacking on a world to a game, or even a bunch of games ala WoW, winds up with the world going to shit and then slowly pushing towards separating the games out and abusing instant travel and diablo style match making.
I think we agree on a couple of things here. Tacking a world onto a game, or tossing random game elements into a world is bad. If game elements and world elements are going to exist together, then they need to be integrated in a way that makes sense.
As far as virtual worlds as a commercial product, wouldn't Worm Online count? I've never played it, but I've heard people talking about it on these forums. The "game play" consists of survival in a sort of realistic way. That exists, and it could be used to show that virtual worlds can be a viable commodity, so long as the scope is fairly small, and the virtual world is not like the world we live in. The question I'd have there is, doesn't that make Worm Online a game? It is a virtual world, but it's nothing like the world we live in. It's role playing. Of course, there could be tons of game elements in there and I wouldn't know, since I have not played the game.
I still say that the "game" and the "world" will never be separate in any successful MMO. That requires time travel to prove though, so it's just me thinking that. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Separate things will only work if you are designing the entertainment product. And i don't disagree. Best done at the design stage. Thus, Diablo 3, PoE, MOBA, WoT, PS2 ... are better designs to me, then WOW.
However, if you want to apply this to EXISTING games, something needs to be taken out. And obviously you want to take out the parts that people are using LESS.
SO for a game like WOW, the obvious solution, if you want to "separate" the games from the world, is to take the virtual world out (since most gameplay happens in the "game" portion of WOW).
Evaluation is personal, and differ across games.
For example, STO works for me but that is only because i ignore the "world" and focus on the instanced mission when i play it. To me, STO is no different than a SP or online MP game .. which just happen to have some zones where you can see lots of the players. Since the world is not a distraction to the game portion ... it is fine with me.
If they re-released original Everquest (and all it's expansions) with a massive updated graphics engine it would be (yet again) a smash hit.
There is a reason for that.
LOL .. you think people will want to stare at a spellbook for 10 min, or take a number and wait with 50 other groups in line to kill a boss?
You are dreaming. No matter how good the graphics is, few will think that is fun.
And yes, there is a reason why old designs like those are not done today.
PvP has its place.. and can be a big plus too. But I do get that many, if not a vast majority of players, just want to build their sandcastles in peace or with friends.. And not be constantly worried about someone coming along and ruining their fun just so they can have their kind of fun.
PvP can make for some exciting moments, while PvE is more focused on relaxing and having fun. And I get why constant paranoia can sour that fun.
Thats not to say that PvE cant be thrilling and that you cant have a sense of paranoia when doing it.. But its nothing like the almost complete unknown that is PvP..
So, basicly I agree with you 95%. Except I personally enjoy PvP in some cases.
But you have no basis for saying that.
You might have a point.. but some might actually enjoy it.
Fact is.. It hasnt been tried lately.
You say there is a reason for that, yet you only assert wild exaggerations.
I think it would take a bit more than better graphics to relaunch EQ.. some of the mechanics are hopelessly outdated and Im sure they made a mistakes along the way that they should keep from ever including in the game.
Saying that having to wait for anything is bad is silly. If it was so bad then why bother with levels at all. Sure you dont get the same sense of satisfaction from finishing memorizing spells, regenerating hit points, or realizing that its finally your turn to fight, as you do when you level up. But you do get to savour the expectation..
If we don't have basis for stating something excessively obvious like, "People don't want to buy a game and then be forced to stare at a spellbook for 10 minutes of non-gameplay," what the hell can we say?
People -- people, generally -- clearly aren't interested in games with little gameplay. This includes "virtual world" experiences. The experience is enjoyable predominantly insofar as it offers interesting decisions and experiences. If a developer wants to throw a appropriate amount of money at the tiny niche (tiny amount of money) interested in virtual worlds, go for it. But we can still point out that most people aren't really interested in empty experiences. They want something dense; something they can learn from.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Of ocuse there is a basis of saying that. EQ got rid of the "staring at spell book for 10 min" .. didn't it? You think they did that randomly? You don't think people complained? I complained.
And if you believe there is a market for players to "stare at spell book for 10 min" as gameplay, feel free to invest your money and/or your career into it. I highly doubt even you (WW4BW) would do that.
Why? There is no good reason why i cannot play game A for PvP, and game B for PvE. In fact, i do that.
You sir are completely correct!! One of the few outstanding MMO players still in existance. To anyone who says they're looking for a game rather than virtual world, simply get off of this site and play your shiny little Xbox 360. This site is meant for an MMORPG player, not a new generation console player who enjoys paying money through a sh*tty f2p business model for instant gratification in a so-called "MMO". A real mmorpg consists of these few base traits, an open virtual world, a large player-base, and your virtual avatar. It does not consist of an in-game shop full of cheap, pathetic routes to taking your money, it does not consist of material that has been reused one hundred times over (all of the WoW-clones) and it certainly does not take place on a trail of cheap content to keep you paying for hours on end. I'm so PO'd at all the modern console gamers trying to inch they're way into the MMO category, GTFO.
New-generation gamers have no clue what an mmo is and certainly have no care or thought. Money grabbing pests called businesses try to cater to every little tear that come out of these gamers with more simplistic crap. For god's sakes, if you really have to change this type of game so much simply to please these children, then these *children* shouldn't be catered to and the game should remain unchanged. Vanilla WoW/pre-NGE SWG for example, these games were so perfectly executed (LOL well SWG had it's issues, but nonetheless) they were capable of withholding a large, LOYAL, and thoroughly respectable playerbase. They understand what the game had to offer, including it's positives and negatives, and decided to stick with, and enjoy for some years.
That should be the description for a real MMO. Games now try, pathetically, to cater to every little whine and plead for a *simpler* or a *faster* levelling experience. This creates an ultimately temporary audience of 8 year olds. It's truly pathetic. Instead of making a select group or *niche* group of gamers left in pure nirvana, you're leaving a massive rotting cespool of bodies to play through the game, and dump it like a sh*t. There are no quality MMORPG's out there anymore. They're al degrading to this pay to win bullsh*t and/or an utterly disgraceful collection of quests just to leave you churning through hours of dull content. I used to LOVE MMO's with an ABSOLUTE passion. I am now almost dumping the entire genre because business, and greed, money, and a**holes in expensive suits don't play the games, they just want to get their money and ditch.
ONE more thing, if you EVER, ever, EVER, rate an MMORPG, or decide not to play it because- "the graphics suck"- You are part of the cause of the genre rotting to hell.
I may have digressed pretty hardcore, but im in a ranting mood like all hell. Lately MMO games have disappointed me to the point of anger and Lucasarts selling to DISNEY, then DISNEY shutting down the gaming branch and animation branch of Lucasarts REALLY PISSES ME OFF. THANK YOU DISNEY FOR WRECKING EVERYONE'S LIVES.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
OP hits on so many points.
Earlier games were limited alot by early server technology. Today, those Developer's not using open world, (which are essentially alive w/us to sandbox in)... are just business ventures for cash.
If you charge a monthly subscription, it is because you've built a living, breathing world & you need to storyboard and maintain that.
Basically, If it is not open world, then it's arcade... & therefore just entertainment. Being such... nothing matters. It doesn't matter if those games have micro-tnx, or auction houses, or instancing, or anything arcadish. They are for your fun and do not promis a stable future for your character to thrive in 4 years from now.
As these F2P arcade games are for NOW & for trending with no comitment on one's part. Thus throw away.. thus no need for sustaining itself for a projected future. People will just move on to newer. These are quick cycle mmos, not MMORPG's.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
What I was getting at was that I certainly never had to stare at my spell book for 10 minutes.
And that I never had more than 2 groups ahead of mine for anything and that was rare.
I could be wrong about the 10 minutes. It was a long time ago and I was probably too busy chatting to notice it if it was 10 minutes. I've tried looking it up, but I couldnt find any info on it other than "a while".
I far more vividly remember how long it took me to figure out the layout of Kelethin Or how happy I was when I got some "magic" boots so I could atleast kick a will'o'wisp.
Anyways, I like it when thing arent just handed to me.
I agree.. But what were you thinking picking a name like that?
Don't argue with him... remember, he just admitted he was one of those who COMPLAINED..^ all-the-while, not realizing that he had a choice.. so ultra-derp!
So given this recent factoid... let the mod recognize his troll...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
hallo ~_~
LOL^
Drum roll please.....
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon