The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

@ Title, I agree. I prefer a VOW (virtual online world) over just an OG (online game)

 

Eek.  Apparently the nature of gaming has flown right by a large number of people in this thread.  Gaming mimics reality.  Tiger cubs don't play Tiddlywinks.  They play cat and mouse.  Humans play mathematical games to mimic solving intellectual puzzles, they play sports to mimic showing physical prowess in battle, and they play social games to mimic societal interactions.

A good virtual world NEEDS to incorporate interesting mechanics (that would amount to a game) and a good game would, by necessity, need to mimic reality to the point of being subject to the term "virtual scenario" or "virtual world."

MMOs were supposed to be societal/cultural in nature.  At some point someone (or about 8 million someones) tried to turn them into a boring statistics grind.  That failed.  Someone just needs to inform the people spending billions of dollars that WoW was a fluke (and its success based mostly on suburban/rural cultural ties) and that they should stop investing money where it is unlikely to generate appropriate revenue.

An MMO is, by the very definition of Massively Multiplayer, a virtual world, even if its confined to a castle and a small tract of land.  The number of people playing together who are being isolated from real world interactions and preconceptions make it so.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

MMOs were supposed to be societal/cultural in nature.  At some point someone (or about 8 million someones) tried to turn them into a boring statistics grind.  That failed.  Someone just needs to inform the people spending billions of dollars that WoW was a fluke (and its success based mostly on suburban/rural cultural ties) and that they should stop investing money where it is unlikely to generate appropriate revenue.

 

This again? MMO is not "supposed" to be anything. They are just entertainment products evolving according to market forces. No more and no less.

And what failed? WOW? GW2? LOL? WoT? ... it looks like lots of online MMO-like games are successful lately. Why do you think there is more and more investment in MOBA?

Xoshua

MOBA's should have their own board or site, get them far far away from mmo's as possible.  Look when I signed up here, 2004.  I'm a veteran mmo player, I know my sh*t.  Listen, regardless of whether you want to call if evolving for market purpose, it's still garbage.  Look how many people don't play MMO's anymore from other threads?  Look at how many people are making similar threads.  There is a HUGE base of players looking for what MMO's are suppose to be.  Yes, they are suppose to be A Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, not a sh*tty instanced anti social piece of garbage the devs are pushing out like hotcakes.

There will be a MMO revolution soon enough.  We the players are getting real sick of the garbage devs are putting out.  We want our old genre back.  If you want a F2P game or a Moba, go somewhere else kid.

Miblet

I think the magic of the old fashioned virtual world MMOs is not going to be seen again.

I had such high hopes for the future of MMOs when the genre was new.  The worlds we would see... how advances in tech would allow a more believable, vibrant world to explore.  I honestly didn't see it turning into singleplayer with chat lobby back then.

Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by nariusseldon

This again? MMO is not "supposed" to be anything. They are just entertainment products evolving according to market forces. No more and no less.

And what failed? WOW? GW2? LOL? WoT? ... it looks like lots of online MMO-like games are successful lately. Why do you think there is more and more investment in MOBA?

Sorry, but you are wrong.  There was, originally, a purpose to putting hundreds to thousands of people in the same gameplay environment - simultaneously.  That purpose was societal/cultural in nature - mostly revolving around role-playing.

And yes, there is no arguing that WoW has experienced historical success.  I have seen no indication that the historic success will continue far into the future and plenty of evidence making it seem like the success is waning.  This is all irrelevant.  WoW is a particular game.  I was talking about an entire subcategory of game development.  As a whole, the MMO development arena has experienced some of the most resounding failure I have ever witnessed, especially given the wads of cash that has been thrown at it.

I really have no idea what your purpose in this thread is.  Both WoW and GW2 have open virtual worlds and that fact contributes significantly to their popularity and playability.  IMO, their game structures would be extremely cheesy and lame without the open world acting as a surrogate game.  I continue to be amazed that people are still developing games that revolve around being surprised by "spawns" and "pulling too much aggro."  If it weren't for the open world and associated social events, these games would be utterly absurd.

ignore_me

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

Yes I think you are correct. Pretty sure we already had this duel.

It probably needs a sticky like the Themepark vs Sandpark and Solo vs Group threads, although that would limit Narius to just the one thread.

I have come to have a certain amount of affection for Narius and his "You don't need X,Y,Z features in your games" stance. I almost feel as though he gives purpose to my postings. Narius, if you are there, take your head out of your console game and read of my admiration for your level-headed opposition.  

tixylix

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

Yes I think you are correct. Pretty sure we already had this duel.

It probably needs a sticky like the Themepark vs Sandpark and Solo vs Group threads, although that would limit Narius to just the one thread.

I have come to have a certain amount of affection for Narius and his "You don't need X,Y,Z features in your games" stance. I almost feel as though he gives purpose to my postings. Narius, if you are there, take your head out of your console game and read of my admiration for your level-headed opposition.  

This isn't sandbox vs themepark, this is about world vs maps. 

tixylix

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

In the past, when I was first introduced to MMO, I wasn't introduced to it as just another Game.

13 years ago, Games were single player and if you want Multiplayer you go to Lan parties, and those aren't called MMO, just basically playing with other players.

MMO 13 years ago, was introduced to me as a game where you can Join a group of similiar minded players, Craft, Quest, and conquer Big Bad Bosses together, its an world all by itself. You can become an Knight, and other people not NPC would also refer to you as an Knight.  Your actions , either lawful or deceitful would be reflected upon by other real world players, that they would either hate you and call you names out of spite or friend you and invite you to quests they are on.

So you are right and the OP is right. Its just the differences of timing.

I think your problem is with the novelty and that it has worn off. I remember my first mmo swg, i thought it was the most amazing thing i'd ever seen.."what you mean that's actually a real person and i can interact with them, wow!!!!", if i played it today i wouldn't be so excited.

 

It hasn't, Dayz has showed me that many aspects of these old skool MMOs are still what I like and what a lot of people like. 

mmoguy43

Originally posted by Miblet

I think the magic of the old fashioned virtual world MMOs is not going to be seen again.

I had such high hopes for the future of MMOs when the genre was new.  The worlds we would see... how advances in tech would allow a more believable, vibrant world to explore.  I honestly didn't see it turning into singleplayer with chat lobby back then.

Certainly.

The magic of MMOs:

Massive amounts of players in a single shard/world is now insignificant

Socializing with a lot of players and building positive/negative relationships is now redundant or irrelevant.

   -grouping still is good and has improved but is minimally used.

   -meeting new people...now LFG tools

Large worlds to explore - can still be found but certainly has not successfully advanced very much.

Aelious

I agree OP and echo the sentiments that the popularity of WoW threw a neutron bomb into MMOs and just now is changing to accommodate better "world" MMOs. One great thing is that there are now a whole lot more players IMO than if there was a continuation of virtual world risk/reward MMOs. Over the next two years they will be exposed to big name games that they haven't really before.

You can experience a single player/coop game in a modem MMO but you cannot duplicate a good world MMO anywhere else. People who haven't played them to see the advantage I think will be happy.

Stromm

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

See back then there wasn't this sense of linear progression, there wasn't this sense of entitlement, an end game or that everything you earn should last forever. Loss is fine but the problem we have now is people are so used to never losing and always being rewarded that they complain whenever there is risk vs reward. I play games nowdays and I'm constantly rewarded with badges and attachments and items, there is so much reward that I ignore it all and it becomes tedious.

I remember playing EQ2 when it first launched (just a good example, I didn't like the game much) and chests used to drop with the good loot in and they were quite rare. Your whole group was so excited to see what had dropped because it was rare, that moment of hearing the chest was magical. Nowdays though people ignore all the loot because it is boring, it's constantly being rewarded all the time that you'll get 12 drops of the same sword but with slightly different stats. 

I just miss those old worlds that actually did feel like worlds, especially when playing SWG Pre CU. Really the only MMO out there now which still feels like one is EVE because CCP get it, they know how to maintain a virtual world and not just how to create a game. They don't do anything stupid like add 10 more levels every expansion, which just kills more of the old world and drives newer players and older ones further apart. No instead they give you sideways progression so you can instantly play with everyone and do anything at any time. 

SWG used to be like that with the whole way worlds were designed, you would find new players doing same content as older players, it was just about when each player go round to doing it. People did it for the challenge and for the story, not always the reward, because people did things for fun. Now there seems to be this thinking of only doing stuff if it gives meaningful rewards. Of the little content SWG had (don't blame the game design, blame the shoddy developer) you got fun and interesting things that were of no use really, they just looked cool and showed you've done something. 

 

I remember when EQ2 was being shown off and playing the beta 0 and being amazed. It was really the first and last leap forward in terms of graphics and immersiveness. I know it looks dated now and for some reason each time we saw the game it looks a little bit more dated too, which was weird. However that player experience of IoR to the Commonlands was just mind blowing for me personally. I haven't had that experience from an MMO since, now everything looks so dated compared to other games around, though back then EQ2 looked as good or even better than SP games, especially when they started showing it off in 2001/2002 time. 

I'd just spend time in that game talking to people, listening to NPCs talk in the game and not just in cutscenes, which no MMO has done since, even EQ2 has gotten rid of it all. I'd spend my time grouping doing quests in and around the city and just spending each night grouping with people and having so much fun. It took me a month to get to level 20 before I was at the Fallen Gate and then realised the rest of the world sucked lol. It was as iff SOE made the game up to the end of level 20 and then rushed the rest, especially that horrible TS zone. 

 

I just miss that sense of being in a virtual world, one that I'm proud of and can spend so much time in and where my achievements matter. I cannot get the same feeling in newer MMOs, they all feel like games and like you're going to complete them and get bored. Even WoW did this in the old Vanilla game, you had this sense of being in the most seamless world up to that date. Sadly they dumbed it down, made it so instance heavy, let you warp around anywhere without travel and killed world PVP with instant battlegrounds. Now WoW is basically a fan fiction themepark and it's so sad and is just a bloated mess of a game. 

In a way though I thank SOE for making all my fave MMOs in EQ, SWG and PS... however I hate them for ruining them all. They always have ambition, even EQ2, PS2 and DCUO were ambitious and something new and innovative in their own ways. However what I do not get is why SOE can make great building blocks, then rush the game to launch, everyone quits within a couple months and then they trickle out poor quality content. I'll never get why their content quality and art quality always dives after launch, it is never as good as the original content. I'll never get why they cannot just listen to players when in beta they're saying it is way too early to launch. Even with PS2 we told them and now look at PS2, had a server merger already and when I last played it was pretty much dead compared to what it used to be. The stuff wrong with it still isn't fixed, stuff that shouldn't take long, yet SOE struggle with creating the content, it is like as soon as a project is released, they transfer 80% of the devs to a new project. 

Game first, Virtual World second.

Aelious

If you're going to play poker wouldn't you want to first find a surface to play on?

Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

Mithithiel

I am sincerely hoping that Everquest Next revives the old school virtual living breathing world feeling in the new technilogical age with breathtaking enviroments and character flare. It would be beautiful if they realize why we loved the original mmorpgs and gave us something worth fighting for!

Cecropia

Originally posted by tixylix

 

It hasn't, Dayz has showed me that many aspects of these old skool MMOs are still what I like and what a lot of people like. 

Yeah, DayZ's wild success really exposed the fact (one that many on this site seem to desperately fear to be true) that many gamers are indeed interested in huge gaming worlds with harsh death penalties.

It will be fascinating to see how things unfold when the standalone is released.

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

although way to many MMOs imho have the diorama effect.. where it's basically a very static world with mobs just placed in packs all over the world waiting to get slaughtered.. Tera would be the pinnacle of this issue in a mainstream game imho and it's an immediate turn off for me in a game

VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

although way to many MMOs imho have the diorama effect.. where it's basically a very static world with mobs just placed in packs all over the world waiting to get slaughtered.. Tera would be the pinnacle of this issue in a mainstream game imho and it's an immediate turn off for me in a game

 The only thing I would change is, it is not just new generations of gamers.  It is video gamers in general are spoiled beyond understanding, with higher expectations, less patience. 

NaughtyP

Most developers are probably just making the games they are told to make. As much as I want to say MMOs are terrible and developers suck, I'm guessing they are given a vision and told to make that vision into (virtual) reality. How many developers out there have full control over the direction of a game? Probably far less than we think. That might be also why many well known creators and developers are going to kickstarter to get funding from fans instead of suits so that they can follow their own vision and have full control over the direction of their product.

JYCowboy

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

the problme is not with MMOs, it's with you.......... (and me, and everyone that plays them).

MMOs and games in general have never been this good, never been so varied, never been this advanced, never been so widespread, never been so incredibly immersive . today's mmos are insanely better than the early mmos.

 

why all the malcontent?

 

simply because we are not the same mmo players that were playing games 20 years ago. those same players that without a computer would sit arround a table and tell stories and roll dice over D&D books. we no longer want to emagine, no longer want to wait, no longer want to work at it, no longer want to make do, no longer want to create any sort of bonds with others, no longer willing to help.

We just want to consume. we want it all, want it perfect, want it now, want it free, and it better never get boring or so help me wallet.....

.....we are the problem. the new generation of gamers that has has never had higher expectaction and less patience. We are spoiled beyond understanding, and therfore doomed to never be sattisfied regardless of how good we have it.

 

The problem doesn't end with the gamer.  Sure a good crossection of demographics read just like you discribe but there are still folks who want to care and be challenged and work for a justified reward.  SWG taught us that with its Alpha Class Jedi.  That group of folks, however, was defined as small making a niche game when compared to WOW.  Investors want to avoid that trap so they forbid VW content.  "Just make a game."  The result is a game like TOR that looks great but is lifeless to veteran MMO players.

Investors do not want to spend on building worlds if they can cut the cost and developers find VW systems hard to create and manage in light of distractive content.  This all creates a cycle of keeping devs employed (they believe) for content while providing quick short term returns to investors all on a ticking timebomb of player expectation.  Thats where the market is today. IMHO

Horusra

A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

JYCowboy

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

I guess the masses see MMO's like smoking and drinking.  In moderation its OK.  Just don't become addicted or no one will want to be around you.

Horusra

Originally posted by JYCowboy

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Horusra
A game you can make to be very inclusive.  With a virtual world every choice the developer makes tends to alienate a very large portion of the gaming population.  This means you can make a game for a mass of people but VW tend to be nitch and have problems getting the number of players to justify the development costs.

Very well put.  Back in the early days of MMORPG's, I would show them to my friends and they'd largely recoil in horror, saying they had no interest in living in an alternate reality, they had enough with the one they current resided in.

They always wanted them to have more "game" to them, and over time developers not only listened but succeeded in bringing the genre to the masses.

Of course, we lost many things along the way, apparently one being longevity but that could be more to do with the proliferation of titles we now have. 

There probably is still a very large number of people who play MMORPG's long term, but they are scattered all over the place in dozens of games.  It's just their numbers pale to the number of folks who jump in for a short while and then move on.

 

I guess the masses see MMO's like smoking and drinking.  In moderation its OK.  Just don't become addicted or no one will want to be around you.

Seems to be more like this....I like what I like and everything else is crap and I will loudly tell everyone my feelings till a game dies.  No other MMO's will survive if they do not fit my select view of how a MMO should be.  When that game exist I will play it for 100 hours straight a die in my chair because the game is better than life.

Zlayer77

The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Horusra

Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next  generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun....  And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Wish there was a PvE oriented version of Eve for those that do not like Sandbox PvP games.