The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

See back then there wasn't this sense of linear progression, there wasn't this sense of entitlement, an end game or that everything you earn should last forever. Loss is fine but the problem we have now is people are so used to never losing and always being rewarded that they complain whenever there is risk vs reward. I play games nowdays and I'm constantly rewarded with badges and attachments and items, there is so much reward that I ignore it all and it becomes tedious.

I remember playing EQ2 when it first launched (just a good example, I didn't like the game much) and chests used to drop with the good loot in and they were quite rare. Your whole group was so excited to see what had dropped because it was rare, that moment of hearing the chest was magical. Nowdays though people ignore all the loot because it is boring, it's constantly being rewarded all the time that you'll get 12 drops of the same sword but with slightly different stats. 

I just miss those old worlds that actually did feel like worlds, especially when playing SWG Pre CU. Really the only MMO out there now which still feels like one is EVE because CCP get it, they know how to maintain a virtual world and not just how to create a game. They don't do anything stupid like add 10 more levels every expansion, which just kills more of the old world and drives newer players and older ones further apart. No instead they give you sideways progression so you can instantly play with everyone and do anything at any time. 

SWG used to be like that with the whole way worlds were designed, you would find new players doing same content as older players, it was just about when each player go round to doing it. People did it for the challenge and for the story, not always the reward, because people did things for fun. Now there seems to be this thinking of only doing stuff if it gives meaningful rewards. Of the little content SWG had (don't blame the game design, blame the shoddy developer) you got fun and interesting things that were of no use really, they just looked cool and showed you've done something. 

 

I remember when EQ2 was being shown off and playing the beta 0 and being amazed. It was really the first and last leap forward in terms of graphics and immersiveness. I know it looks dated now and for some reason each time we saw the game it looks a little bit more dated too, which was weird. However that player experience of IoR to the Commonlands was just mind blowing for me personally. I haven't had that experience from an MMO since, now everything looks so dated compared to other games around, though back then EQ2 looked as good or even better than SP games, especially when they started showing it off in 2001/2002 time. 

I'd just spend time in that game talking to people, listening to NPCs talk in the game and not just in cutscenes, which no MMO has done since, even EQ2 has gotten rid of it all. I'd spend my time grouping doing quests in and around the city and just spending each night grouping with people and having so much fun. It took me a month to get to level 20 before I was at the Fallen Gate and then realised the rest of the world sucked lol. It was as iff SOE made the game up to the end of level 20 and then rushed the rest, especially that horrible TS zone. 

 

I just miss that sense of being in a virtual world, one that I'm proud of and can spend so much time in and where my achievements matter. I cannot get the same feeling in newer MMOs, they all feel like games and like you're going to complete them and get bored. Even WoW did this in the old Vanilla game, you had this sense of being in the most seamless world up to that date. Sadly they dumbed it down, made it so instance heavy, let you warp around anywhere without travel and killed world PVP with instant battlegrounds. Now WoW is basically a fan fiction themepark and it's so sad and is just a bloated mess of a game. 

In a way though I thank SOE for making all my fave MMOs in EQ, SWG and PS... however I hate them for ruining them all. They always have ambition, even EQ2, PS2 and DCUO were ambitious and something new and innovative in their own ways. However what I do not get is why SOE can make great building blocks, then rush the game to launch, everyone quits within a couple months and then they trickle out poor quality content. I'll never get why their content quality and art quality always dives after launch, it is never as good as the original content. I'll never get why they cannot just listen to players when in beta they're saying it is way too early to launch. Even with PS2 we told them and now look at PS2, had a server merger already and when I last played it was pretty much dead compared to what it used to be. The stuff wrong with it still isn't fixed, stuff that shouldn't take long, yet SOE struggle with creating the content, it is like as soon as a project is released, they transfer 80% of the devs to a new project. 

VengeSunsoar

Game first, VW 2nd IMO.  There is no reason we can't have both in the same world, however if it comes to a choice between them. I choose the game.

A game is made with fun and entertainment in mind which is why I play them.

VW is not, however if they plan the game it can have fun and entertainment in it. 

edit - while I really like VW, the key is there has to be enough fun elements in that VW to be entertaining to me which then means the devs need to make a game. 

FromHell

Fear not... 

 

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

 

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

jmcdermottuk

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the problem is that WoW changed the MMO landscape so radically that it's hard to see it going back to where it used to be.

MMO's now have a different audience when compared to 10 or 12 years ago. I know there's a lot of talk about the average age of MMO players being around 30 but how many of those were playing games like UO or EQ when they were 16 or 17? Most of the people I played with back then were well into their 20's or older. Most of the crowd I played with are over 40 now. Add to that the younger players who've grown up in the console generation and you can see where the shift has come from. Add to that the fact that the devs themselves are also younger and it's suddenly no surprise at all.

At some point someone will probably come up with a "new" idea and make an MMO with more depth than the constant chase for the next tier of gear to wear and everyone will be amazed. We can always hope.

Gruug

I agree with the OP to a point. Although some of his examples are probably NOT what he thinks they were (or are). Most people, in my opinion anyway, want some form of scale complexity to their games. Very few want just rinse and repeat easy mode. What's got me to thinking this recently is playing Minecraft that is heavily modded on a multiplayer server. The graphics may not be special and the "vanilla" game is simple. But, add in many of the advanced mods out there now and the GAMEPLAY becomes a complex living space. I for one have spent more hours in that one game over the last couple of months then any I have played in a long time. Not because I had to but because it was compelling me to come back day after day. If more games were like those fully modded Minecraft servers in complexity and challenge...more games would have more to offer!

 

 

TheLizardbones

The problem is that people want to buy games. They don't want to buy into virtual worlds. Well, some people want to buy into virtual worlds, but not as many as want to just play games.

Which isn't so much a problem as a description of what people in general want to buy.

Arclan

Great post, O.P.! Posts like these are frequent occurrences at MMORPG. I, too, think SOE has squandered its intellectual property. Let's hope they learned lessons and launch an EQN that doesn't suck.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

Lucioon

I think what we need is an New Acronym for the kind of MMO you want instead of calling it MMO.

VWO = Virtual World Online

OMMO = Old Massive Multiplayer Online

...etc

Because MMO itself has redefined its meaning so many times that there are other things Developers need to worry about before they even worry about the Virtual World aspect of them.

And having an special Acronym for that specific Genre that you want, the Priority in what the Developers need to worry about also changes. providing you with the game that you want to play.

 

mmoguy43

I don't want plain virtual worlds.

I don't want plain games either, not for the ideal MMORPG anyway.

I want a game within a virtual world. Something like Skyrim and it doesn't even have to have a massive amount of players in a zone.

Basically...Fun game, lots of variety and options. And a world that brings a lot of longevity and content that doesn't get old in the first play through nor is the progression short with the level cap the raiding/grinding end.

Lucioon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

In the past, when I was first introduced to MMO, I wasn't introduced to it as just another Game.

13 years ago, Games were single player and if you want Multiplayer you go to Lan parties, and those aren't called MMO, just basically playing with other players.

MMO 13 years ago, was introduced to me as a game where you can Join a group of similiar minded players, Craft, Quest, and conquer Big Bad Bosses together, its an world all by itself. You can become an Knight, and other people not NPC would also refer to you as an Knight.  Your actions , either lawful or deceitful would be reflected upon by other real world players, that they would either hate you and call you names out of spite or friend you and invite you to quests they are on.

So you are right and the OP is right. Its just the differences of timing.

nerovipus32

The genre needs to be split into two different genres.

nerovipus32

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

In the past, when I was first introduced to MMO, I wasn't introduced to it as just another Game.

13 years ago, Games were single player and if you want Multiplayer you go to Lan parties, and those aren't called MMO, just basically playing with other players.

MMO 13 years ago, was introduced to me as a game where you can Join a group of similiar minded players, Craft, Quest, and conquer Big Bad Bosses together, its an world all by itself. You can become an Knight, and other people not NPC would also refer to you as an Knight.  Your actions , either lawful or deceitful would be reflected upon by other real world players, that they would either hate you and call you names out of spite or friend you and invite you to quests they are on.

So you are right and the OP is right. Its just the differences of timing.

I think your problem is with the novelty and that it has worn off. I remember my first mmo swg, i thought it was the most amazing thing i'd ever seen.."what you mean that's actually a real person and i can interact with them, wow!!!!", if i played it today i wouldn't be so excited.

Sovrath

@op

I prefer virtual worlds but at the same time I know a few people (and apparently several in this thread) who prefer them as games.

Lucioon

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

In the past, when I was first introduced to MMO, I wasn't introduced to it as just another Game.

13 years ago, Games were single player and if you want Multiplayer you go to Lan parties, and those aren't called MMO, just basically playing with other players.

MMO 13 years ago, was introduced to me as a game where you can Join a group of similiar minded players, Craft, Quest, and conquer Big Bad Bosses together, its an world all by itself. You can become an Knight, and other people not NPC would also refer to you as an Knight.  Your actions , either lawful or deceitful would be reflected upon by other real world players, that they would either hate you and call you names out of spite or friend you and invite you to quests they are on.

So you are right and the OP is right. Its just the differences of timing.

I think your problem is with the novelty and that it has worn off. I remember my first mmo swg, i thought it was the most amazing thing i'd ever seen.."what you mean that's actually a real person and i can interact with them, wow!!!!", if i played it today i wouldn't be so excited.

I wouldn't call it Novelty

I would call it as an Innovation at that period of time, the Market wasn't flooded with so many MMO's, now its flooded and we need an new Genre to distinguish this new Virtual World Trend that I think the OP hope is starting.

Fiveball

Good post mon. I agree with most of the meat in that one. Myself and my brother have been feeling out of sorts with the newer mmorpgs coming out the past 5 years- as if there is a disconnect somewhere and cannot really immerse yourself as you were once able.

Phaserlight

Originally posted by Lucioon

I think what we need is an New Acronym for the kind of MMO you want instead of calling it MMO.

VWO = Virtual World Online

OMMO = Old Massive Multiplayer Online

...etc

Because MMO itself has redefined its meaning so many times that there are other things Developers need to worry about before they even worry about the Virtual World aspect of them.

And having an special Acronym for that specific Genre that you want, the Priority in what the Developers need to worry about also changes. providing you with the game that you want to play.

 

MEW... Massively Evolving World?

By the way, Eve isn't the "only" game that gets it.  I've been playing Vendetta Online for nigh on 10 years now, and feel like I've had a real impact on that world by way of player-player, player-developer, and player-environment interaction.

Xaaz23

Too many entitlement kiddies these days. They have to be rewarded for everything they do. They wouldn't be happy if someone in their raid force received new armor over them because they participated so they deserve it too. You'll never see another Everquest or Ultima ... You will see dumbed down, quick hit, quick death, sub to f2p games come out. Even if Everquest Next came out to be just like EQ was but with new graphics and updated combat, today's generation would not play it because it's not instant gratification.

CthulhuPuffs

@ Title, I agree. I prefer a VOW (virtual online world) over just an OG (online game)

However I think there should be both. I think there is room for both

nerovipus32

One thing that kills mmorpg's for me is that stupid achievment system, shit you get an achievment for jumping up and down 5 times in some games. If you are constantly getting rewarded then you'll never really feel rewarded.

Bigdaddyx

I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by tixylix

I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

In the past, when I was first introduced to MMO, I wasn't introduced to it as just another Game.

13 years ago, Games were single player and if you want Multiplayer you go to Lan parties, and those aren't called MMO, just basically playing with other players.

MMO 13 years ago, was introduced to me as a game where you can Join a group of similiar minded players, Craft, Quest, and conquer Big Bad Bosses together, its an world all by itself. You can become an Knight, and other people not NPC would also refer to you as an Knight.  Your actions , either lawful or deceitful would be reflected upon by other real world players, that they would either hate you and call you names out of spite or friend you and invite you to quests they are on.

So you are right and the OP is right. Its just the differences of timing.

It is not timing. It is preference.

When i first play RPGs .. it was Ultima 3 .. and soon it was "We Create Worlds" .. particularly in U6 & U7. However, if you look at those games, even when there is a world element, there was always a strong game/story element.

Then i play Kingdom of Drakkar, a percusor to MMO .. the term MMO is not even created then. Then came UO & EQ ... that try to sell virtual worlds. Soon i found that world world is no fun when other players' actions are not limited. Camping, loot drama, griefing ... all over the place.

I prefer a GAME than a virtual world because i have seen how a VW can be not fun .. not even close to a game. Now i don't mind if indeed some games will make use of a VW in ways not conflicting with my fun ... but fun is the important part for me.

 

 

ignore_me

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

Yes I think you are correct. Pretty sure we already had this duel.

RefMinor

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

Yes I think you are correct. Pretty sure we already had this duel.

It probably needs a sticky like the Themepark vs Sandpark and Solo vs Group threads, although that would limit Narius to just the one thread.

Kyleran

Originally posted by ignore_me

Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
I am 101% sure i read the same topic just a couple of months ago..are we re hashing old topics very month or so now?

Yes I think you are correct. Pretty sure we already had this duel.

Oh yeah, this is one of the 10-15 standard topics that make the rounds pretty regularly, so I'll give my usual answer, I prefer MMORPG's designed as virtual worlds, apparently most other gamers don't so no one is likely to cater to my tastes outside of a few small indie dev houses.

Discussion over.

 

Xoshua

Add me on skype, same name as my username,  I'm interested in the same thing as you OP.  The MMO genre needs a split.  We are being categorized with "casual" games.  I'm a hardcore MMO player, or use to be, before the market started catouring to these kids.  Now they all want F2P games, because mommy and daddy won't buy them a subscription.

We need to make a new game or find a game together, band together with other like minded and start a MMO revolution.