That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
There are very few natural laws period thus there are very few natural laws one could use to support any position at all.
In the past we did not put the burden of proof on the person making the claim and have all sorts of good stories coming from that. Witch hunts, crusades, McCarthy witch hunts.
Anyone who makes a claim, the burden is on them to provide justification for that claim - not doing so means the person is just looking to start an argument (and not a debate argument) and is not worthy of my time.
Your response however was worthy of my time. You did supply reason for your position, its just not one I agree with.
Just some interesting articles about burden of proof.
Reading the links you provided, I am starting to realize that I have not been clear about something that I did find and still find obvious: the inability to prove the topic starter wrong is not sufficient as proof for his claim "In MMOs, leveling is a mindless time sink".
i skipped the last 15 pages but umm.... would you prefer to get a new mmo, log in, and just go "end-game" raid the entire time? what's the point of even playing then lol. get over the fact that games have leveling in them.
And also I'm pretty sure leveling gives everyone a chance to not be "bad" by the time everyone is raiding/serious pvp-ing, etc. unless you want every person to just jump in and screw your instances/raids/pvp up, deal with it. or stop playing mmo's doubt anyone would miss another baby
Maybe they should put some mindless timesink grind in games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter to compestate for the lack of grind to be found in future MMORPGS?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You forget that there would still be grind in a different form. There are only two choices for a developer and that's to either completely remove all forms of progression (and end game since that's progression) or find another time sink to replace levels. PvE end game is just you mindlessly running dungeons/raids to get better gear and then repeating the process all over again for the next tier. It would be even more repetitive than leveling as you wouldn't even get the opportunity to take it slow and explore the world. I would hate to play a game that's nothing but end game content. You'd just mindlessly run the same dungeons over and over to get that next piece of gear before moving on and doing PvP endlessly before quitting.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
There are very few natural laws period thus there are very few natural laws one could use to support any position at all.
In the past we did not put the burden of proof on the person making the claim and have all sorts of good stories coming from that. Witch hunts, crusades, McCarthy witch hunts.
Anyone who makes a claim, the burden is on them to provide justification for that claim - not doing so means the person is just looking to start an argument (and not a debate argument) and is not worthy of my time.
Your response however was worthy of my time. You did supply reason for your position, its just not one I agree with.
Just some interesting articles about burden of proof.
Reading the links you provided, I am starting to realize that I have not been clear about something that I did find and still find obvious: the inability to prove the topic starter wrong is not sufficient as proof for his claim "In MMOs, leveling is a mindless time sink".
If your stating that just because we cannot prove him wrong that does not mean he is right, then I agree.
However that wasn't our (not the topic just ours) discussion. Our discussion was on whose job it is to provide justification/reason/or proof in the argument.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Gettin real tired of your shock value, nothing but an attempt to increase your forum rank, posts OP. It's getting trollish at this point. Sorry, but I call it like I see it.
And to answer your stupid question: NO. They aren't meaningless. I've played games without level and all that does is cause gear score or attack rating or some other number to be used to judge your skill level. "Skill LEVEL," the LEVEL of your character's development. I can't think of a better way of measuring that than with...wait for it...LEVELS. You don't even sound like you like playing RPGs anymore. God forbid industry people honor your opinion or MMOs are going to be turned into Spyro the Dragon.
It was the greatest redeeming virtue of PreCU SWG.
I 'level capped' my character to Swordy/ Ranger doing Ranger things. It had a strange sense of urgency in doing it. There never really was but still, it was something I did.
I would log in and go to each planet, kill a low end creature gather wild, domestic and all meat, bone and hide from leather, wooly, bristly and what ever other material I collected from animals. From there I would figure out the best available resource at the time and that is what I would grind. Because of the imminent despawning of that particular resource if it was really good I could get whole boxes and not even notice. I wasn't looking at the levels. I was looking at the 250K Naboo Wooly I was getting. The levels just came to me. In addition, even if I had dropped all my Ranger points, I could still go get hide or meat. I just got less and that made that sense of urgency even more present because again, the imminent despawn was still there so regrinding my template got faster with the side quest of getting the latest 'uber' resource.
Every new resource was new content and a new thing to grind. Harvesters for passive players, animal for others. It always had a new content and it was so embedded in to the core of the game you got caught up in it. That's what people see when they saw the acclaimed SWG crafting. It was the side game grind of new content that it gave people and the motive to log in and update that list. It was the last time I played an MMO where I had that sense of 'good grind'.
That why I am truly enjoying Fallen Earth, voted second best crafting game next to SWG.
To me a game that makes crafting as important as killing is what makes MMO's fun. It is the same formula in EVE. You don't just go kill Kill kill, because you have to build your ships and replace the ones you lost. All your actions have consequences then and mining for hours becomes important and not just a chore. Suddenly there is an economy as well to deal with. When everything in a game is made by you and not just dropped,....Voila .... the grind just sort of disappears. You are now killingand crafting with purpose, not just to be on the wheel chasing that next level.
I am done with MMO's that do not follow this design now. Its great fun to watch so many newbs come into a game and suddenly find ...what??? I have to craft??? LOL they are totally lost and so many drop out because they just don't get it. I never played SWG when I had the chance but I am sure I would have truly enjoyed it at the start.
Yes MMO's can be fun, even with a grind.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
There are very few natural laws period thus there are very few natural laws one could use to support any position at all.
In the past we did not put the burden of proof on the person making the claim and have all sorts of good stories coming from that. Witch hunts, crusades, McCarthy witch hunts.
Anyone who makes a claim, the burden is on them to provide justification for that claim - not doing so means the person is just looking to start an argument (and not a debate argument) and is not worthy of my time.
Your response however was worthy of my time. You did supply reason for your position, its just not one I agree with.
Just some interesting articles about burden of proof.
Reading the links you provided, I am starting to realize that I have not been clear about something that I did find and still find obvious: the inability to prove the topic starter wrong is not sufficient as proof for his claim "In MMOs, leveling is a mindless time sink".
If your stating that just because we cannot prove him wrong that does not mean he is right, then I agree.
However that wasn't our (not the topic just ours) discussion. Our discussion was on whose job it is to provide justification/reason/or proof in the argument.
It is irrelevant to me what you do or do not consider our exchange of words to be. I find any post from any poster that presents a partially previously not mentioned (as in not mentioned in this thread) view on any topic related to the main topic of the thread to be interesting enough to read for a few seconds given that I decide to spend my time in this forum.
I am completely fine with that there are few natural laws on which one can support any position. I am consequentely fine with that the grand majority (if not all) of our ethical beliefs are not directly derived from natural laws; that's why I consider myself to be more tolerant and open-minded than most. I do not accept things to be set in stone just because it has been a tradition to do so.
As for things being a waste of time: I consider reading a gaming forum to be a waste of time, but I am fine with wasting my time during certain time intervals.
Originally posted by jabhamano writing about it on forum, and reading all those pages of posts makes me think that you have lots of time to sink on pointless stuff anyway.
Shore do. Hence, escapist entertainment.
Which is supposed to, by design, consume leisure time.
OP (more correctly, everyone else who rallied to the flag, since the op himself has been silent beyond first post):
You are absolutely right, you have totally won. +10 forum points! Huzzah! Huzzah!
(without that "prove me wrong" omg a challenge! take up arms! in the title, would this thread have lasted much beyond post 2?)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
When you get to end game, what do you really have?
Endless copy/paste PvP?, Dailies?, Crafting?
End game is the real mindless sink.
Actually, leveling has become one of the least things I look forward in a MMORPG.
Exploration, combat, adventuring etc. are more important. I would do world building if it was an option.
Leveling is an artificial power segregation in many cases and largely tedious means of advancement that allows developers lazy means of game development. Follow (!) (?) and bunch of fedex, kill quest, etc and experience gain and Ding! Maybe I've just done it too many times.
I started out with UO where, while there was a grind, the power gap wasn't artificial and you could hang, adventure and do things with friend even if your skill levels of experience was different.
I started out with UO where, while there was a grind, the power gap wasn't artificial and you could hang, adventure and do things with friend even if your skill levels of experience was different.
And games like CoX and GW2 made level differences largely inconsequential (as you describe).
There is not a single MMO in the gaming universe where you can't hang, adventure, and do things with friends.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Reading the links you provided, I am starting to realize that I have not been clear about something that I did find and still find obvious: the inability to prove the topic starter wrong is not sufficient as proof for his claim "In MMOs, leveling is a mindless time sink".
i skipped the last 15 pages but umm.... would you prefer to get a new mmo, log in, and just go "end-game" raid the entire time? what's the point of even playing then lol. get over the fact that games have leveling in them.
And also I'm pretty sure leveling gives everyone a chance to not be "bad" by the time everyone is raiding/serious pvp-ing, etc. unless you want every person to just jump in and screw your instances/raids/pvp up, deal with it. or stop playing mmo's
doubt anyone would miss another baby
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You forget that there would still be grind in a different form. There are only two choices for a developer and that's to either completely remove all forms of progression (and end game since that's progression) or find another time sink to replace levels. PvE end game is just you mindlessly running dungeons/raids to get better gear and then repeating the process all over again for the next tier. It would be even more repetitive than leveling as you wouldn't even get the opportunity to take it slow and explore the world. I would hate to play a game that's nothing but end game content. You'd just mindlessly run the same dungeons over and over to get that next piece of gear before moving on and doing PvP endlessly before quitting.
Sounds like a boring grindfest to me...
If your stating that just because we cannot prove him wrong that does not mean he is right, then I agree.
However that wasn't our (not the topic just ours) discussion. Our discussion was on whose job it is to provide justification/reason/or proof in the argument.
Gettin real tired of your shock value, nothing but an attempt to increase your forum rank, posts OP. It's getting trollish at this point. Sorry, but I call it like I see it.
And to answer your stupid question: NO. They aren't meaningless. I've played games without level and all that does is cause gear score or attack rating or some other number to be used to judge your skill level. "Skill LEVEL," the LEVEL of your character's development. I can't think of a better way of measuring that than with...wait for it...LEVELS. You don't even sound like you like playing RPGs anymore. God forbid industry people honor your opinion or MMOs are going to be turned into Spyro the Dragon.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
That why I am truly enjoying Fallen Earth, voted second best crafting game next to SWG.
To me a game that makes crafting as important as killing is what makes MMO's fun. It is the same formula in EVE. You don't just go kill Kill kill, because you have to build your ships and replace the ones you lost. All your actions have consequences then and mining for hours becomes important and not just a chore. Suddenly there is an economy as well to deal with. When everything in a game is made by you and not just dropped,....Voila .... the grind just sort of disappears. You are now killingand crafting with purpose, not just to be on the wheel chasing that next level.
I am done with MMO's that do not follow this design now. Its great fun to watch so many newbs come into a game and suddenly find ...what??? I have to craft??? LOL they are totally lost and so many drop out because they just don't get it. I never played SWG when I had the chance but I am sure I would have truly enjoyed it at the start.
Yes MMO's can be fun, even with a grind.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
the game i played the most in my 12 years of mmo's was Anarchy online and it was a massive grind from lvl 1-220 but it was fun all the same
bring back the grind... you get everything way to easy these days
+ i play mmo's not to rush to the end but to have fun along the way
It is irrelevant to me what you do or do not consider our exchange of words to be. I find any post from any poster that presents a partially previously not mentioned (as in not mentioned in this thread) view on any topic related to the main topic of the thread to be interesting enough to read for a few seconds given that I decide to spend my time in this forum.
I am completely fine with that there are few natural laws on which one can support any position. I am consequentely fine with that the grand majority (if not all) of our ethical beliefs are not directly derived from natural laws; that's why I consider myself to be more tolerant and open-minded than most. I do not accept things to be set in stone just because it has been a tradition to do so.
As for things being a waste of time: I consider reading a gaming forum to be a waste of time, but I am fine with wasting my time during certain time intervals.
OP, you are looking at it the wrong way.
Leveling is the game in it's highest form.
When you get to end game, what do you really have?
Endless copy/paste PvP?, Dailies?, Crafting?
End game is the real mindless sink.
Shore do. Hence, escapist entertainment.
Which is supposed to, by design, consume leisure time.
OP (more correctly, everyone else who rallied to the flag, since the op himself has been silent beyond first post):
You are absolutely right, you have totally won. +10 forum points! Huzzah! Huzzah!
(without that "prove me wrong" omg a challenge! take up arms! in the title, would this thread have lasted much beyond post 2?)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
There has to be time to level. Otherwise you would start at the highest level. That wouldn't be much fun IMO
I self identify as a monkey.
Actually, leveling has become one of the least things I look forward in a MMORPG.
Exploration, combat, adventuring etc. are more important. I would do world building if it was an option.
Leveling is an artificial power segregation in many cases and largely tedious means of advancement that allows developers lazy means of game development. Follow (!) (?) and bunch of fedex, kill quest, etc and experience gain and Ding! Maybe I've just done it too many times.
I started out with UO where, while there was a grind, the power gap wasn't artificial and you could hang, adventure and do things with friend even if your skill levels of experience was different.
And games like CoX and GW2 made level differences largely inconsequential (as you describe).
There is not a single MMO in the gaming universe where you can't hang, adventure, and do things with friends.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.