Will it be full open-world PVP?

Domenicus · June 2013

Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer
If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox.

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience.,

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive. You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP.

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games. I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure. If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

I would go farther... I would say that a Full Loot PvP without boundaries is exclusive of a sandbox MMO...

Sandbox MMO is a place where you can do everything you want, you can craft, you can pve, you can PvP, you can RP... You build a world and you play all sides of the genre as you wish... When you put Full Loot PvP you just jeopardize all others elements. You cant play if you are not a hardcore PvP, otherwise you will be ganked by Dudez12345loligankedyou ... The Open Full Loot PvP suck up all elements of the game, letting very little space for the ones who dont want to PvP, who want to explore, build something, etc... Sandbox is not arbitrary chaos, as it was explained before, but a controlled chaos, as it is in our world... Maybe a little more controlled...

EvE almost got it with their secure zones and null sector system... You see, EvE is a Full Loot PvP but with boundaries.. The system has created a way to punish the gankers who prey on empire sector, therefore the people (pvers and crafters) can (almost) have much fun on empire sector (PvE) as in null sector (pvp). I said almost, because the null sector is still where the best things are for everyone, and thats their only flaw... They force you to go to null sec in some point of your game.

Domenicus · June 2013

Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by fardreamer
If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox.

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience.,

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff. Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator.

The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Bingo!

And I'd just say that the one who want Full PvP, without boundaries, with no rules (and call it 'sandbox'), can play Call of Duty... If it has a PvP Full Loot without boundaries, it cant be called sandbox. Unless you call CoD as sandbox.

sandbox let you play with the sandbox and with their tools, as you wish.. Building, destroying (with consequences for both)

MGPeterson · June 2013

Originally posted by satora54
Originally posted by cronius77
this is where I felt asherons call 2 really got it right. They had different types of servers of course but the most fun I had in that game was on the realm pvp server I forget the name now. You could basically attack anyone , anywhere that wasnt in your faction and the world around you was just mostly ruined small towns. A enhanced version of this would be a lot of fun where you have to rebuild the world but other players can also destroy it as well. The only main issue with this is many MANY everquest fans have no intention of doing any pvp at all and if you do not offer pve servers you can kiss any chance of making any money off this game goodbye. All you have to do is look at current sandbox pvp styled games like darkfall , mortal , Xsyon, shadowbane etc and see where all those are now.

A server for factional pvp im sure will release with this game but I highly doubt they will not release pve servers also. Smed likes to troll for publicity . Thats why you seen the perma death trolling comments on his twitter , I would take anything that man says with a grain of salt , hes not going to kill his business making a only open world pvp game and risk losing half his staff to layoffs.

And where are you getting this information about the Everquest PVP playerbase?

I played on Vallon Zek until the merge and we ALWAYS had a healthy population and enjoyed the PvP.

So don't speak for the Everquest Community.

I think he spoke for the EQ Community pretty well. Most of us don't want to PvP. EQ was always about questing (PvE), not PvP. Ever notice how EQ 1 & 2 both had limited PvP servers, maybe 1-2? Liken PvP to a nich like RP, it's not a main focus in the title, it never has been and certainly never should be.

Dullahan · June 2013

Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer
If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox.

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience.,

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive. You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP.

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games. I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure. If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

The failings of sandbox games stem not from the PvP, but rather from the lack of PvE.

I've played all the sandbox MMOs that were worth a lick since UO, and every one lacked decent PvE or any meaningful pve at all. I'm sorry, but you can only fight over resources and territory so much before it gets boring. The games where you actually fought over PvE were actually far more interesting to me. Some of the most exciting PvP I ever had was in dungeons in EQ, especially when it was raid vs raid fighting for a boss. There needs to be both itemization from resources (crafting) and pve, and a reason to compete over both

Domenicus · June 2013

Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by fardreamer
If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox.

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience.,

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

Just because previous sandboxes have had un-consensual PvP, does not mean that the two are mutually inclusive. You can most certainly have a sandbox without PvP.

In fact, the inclusion of un-consensual PvP is probably the main reason for the commercial failings of most sandbox games. I doubt SoE will bank its biggest IP on a proven failure. If they have it, it will be on a segregated server.

The failings of sandbox games stem not from the PvP, but rather from the lack of PvE.

I've played all the sandbox MMOs that were worth a lick since UO, and every one lacked a decent PvE end game. I'm sorry, but you can only fight over resources and territory so much before it gets boring. The games where you actually fought over PvE were actually far more interesting to me. Some of the most exciting PvP I ever had was in dungeons in EQ, especially when it was raid vs raid fighting for a boss.

I am sorry, but I think exactly on contrary... The falling of sandbox its the PvP, at least the Full Loot PvP without consequences. DFO, MO and others do not attract real sandbox players because there is a lot of sandbox players who do not want to be forced to PvP. In fact the foundation of sandbox, which is the crafter, mostly do not enjoy PvP (hell, some do not even enjoy PvE!!). You are right when you speak that the game became boring when you dont fight for resources. In fact, the games became boring if you just only fight for resources as well... Thats why I defend a model where you can have pvp, pve, rp and craft in all levels... And a sandbox who do not have PvP would get boring for a lot of people. In my model, you can have places where you can have full loot PvP, PvE, craft, RP all together and all separated. Or you do create real harsh consequences for the player who PvP on PVE area, or you just create zones where you can have fun the way you want.. EvE is the one who most closely came in which I think is perfect, the only flaw is that you have a real, very shallow limit to the fun on empire zone... You are kind of forced to go to null sec if you wish to have fun after some point. Thats their only mistake.

Dullahan · June 2013

In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls. In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors. There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets.

The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false. The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model.

Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder. Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

Domenicus · June 2013

Originally posted by Dullahan
In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls. In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors. There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets.

The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false. The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model.

Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder. Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

The problem is that the 'safety of your capital city' is a very limited place. Even EvE is limited in this way. High-sec zones are limited fun after some time. You need to have as much fun in your 'capital city' as outside of it. Otherwise its just a matter of time the game became boring for those who dont want to PvP.

dyermaker714 · June 2013

Originally posted by strangiato2112
Of course it wont be full open world PvP. SoE isnt that stupid.

Im sure there will be a token full PvP server or two though.

That's All we ask

Bidwood · June 2013

Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by fardreamer If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.
When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff. Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator. The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Horrible analogy. Killing a player in a sandbox game is more equivalent to smashing another kid's sand castle in a sandbox or breaking one of their toys. We've all seen that happen and it's a natural part of what happens between kids on the playground.

Originally posted by Dullahan In a good sandbox pvp mmo, you can do all those things from the safety of your capital or your own city walls. In the middle ages, the era from whence modern fantasy is derived, cities had builders, crafters, farmers as well as guards, knights and warriors. There were raids and no one was ever completely safe, but in general the peasants did not fear for their lives walking through the city streets. The misconception that an unrestricted pvp mmo implies that no one has any level of safety is false. The fact that some games often fail to provide a more meaningful experience outside of combat, and the safety to enjoy other spheres of the game was merely a shortcoming of their game, not a definitive flaw in the PvP-sandbox model. Perhaps they should offer safe zones within the walls of capitol cities, or perhaps games should incorporate a constable system where criminals are jailed for a period of time for mass murder. Age of Wushu set up a pretty fantastic system in that respect, and while many players whine about having their character stuck on jail for hours on end, it actually makes PvP more meaningful when you have to pick and choose when and who you kill.

I like the way you think.

Dullahan · June 2013

Consensual pvp is an oxymoron.

If a game has pvp, and people choose to play it, they've given their consent by logging in.

This is probably why Age of Wushu has a reminder dialog every time you log in telling you the game has open world pvp.

aspekx · June 2013

Originally posted by Bidwood

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by fardreamer If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff. Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator. The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Horrible analogy. Killing a player in a sandbox game is more equivalent to smashing another kid's sand castle in a sandbox or breaking one of their toys. We've all seen that happen and it's a natural part of what happens between kids on the playground.

exactly and those kids were corrected in their behavior and the ones who could not be corrected were deemed sociopaths. no one allowed that kind of silliness to go on between children because it is deemed improper to destroy that which is not yours. go back and read your John Locke. protection of person and property is the foundation of society, not the mutually assured destruction of person and property.

kinido · June 2013

Then you never played on any of the Zek servers in EQ1....

Some of the most frustrating yet addicting PVP in any MMO I have ever played.

Having 40 people trying to take down a raid boss in one of the planes, then having your enemy guild come from nowhere in a swift motion, having everyone having to fight the raid boss, while kiting pvprs and trying to keep everyone alive?

Yeah, best pvp ever.

Hope they bring it back.

Vallon Zek for lifeee.

Akulas · June 2013

Doubtful it will do PVP well. World full of scout classes sneaking up behind you and stun locking you. I like being proved wrong though.

Dullahan · June 2013

Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by Bidwood

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by fardreamer If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox. Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience., Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

When I was a kid playing in the sandbox at the neighborhood park, I don't recall ever seeing anyone killing someone and taking their stuff. Societal mores prevented that from happening, because it just isn't something that's done, and if it ever DID happen, serious life-altering consequences would fall on the perpetrator. The problem with FFA, full loot PVP is that there is no real danger for the PKer in the game space. Societal mores take a back seat to internet sociopathy. There's no consequence, other than the off chance the victim has friends bigger and badder than the PKer. In the real world, we call that "law enforcement", and there's no analogue in an MMO. Archeage is tackling the problem in a curious way, and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. When FFA PVP games provide a way for the lone player to level the playing field a bit against a gank squad, then I'll join the chorus. For now, as long as SOE includes a PVE server, preferably with enforced RP rules and the ability to engage in consensual PVP, I'll be happy.

Horrible analogy. Killing a player in a sandbox game is more equivalent to smashing another kid's sand castle in a sandbox or breaking one of their toys. We've all seen that happen and it's a natural part of what happens between kids on the playground.

exactly and those kids were corrected in their behavior and the ones who could not be corrected were deemed sociopaths. no one allowed that kind of silliness to go on between children because it is deemed improper to destroy that which is not yours. go back and read your John Locke. protection of person and property is the foundation of society, not the mutually assured destruction of person and property.

What about those little pricks throwing sand and talking about my momma? I'd piss on his sand castle.

noncley · June 2013

All good Sandboxes offer protection to those players who do not wish to participate in PVP - from SWG's overt/covert status to Eve's Low/Hi Sec Space - so please don't let your fear of PVP prevent you from participating in an MMORPG sandbox.

Monamia222 · June 2013

Originally posted by fardreamer
If it does not have Open world free pvp, it is not, and will not, can never be called sandbox.

Open free form, player harrasment is part of a sandbox experience.,

Pve players can go play themepark games, it fits the "pve" crowd.

I don't know which sandbox you played in as a child, but the one I played in had rules against killing others and taking their stuff. A world, even a virtual one, has to have rules or its just chaos. If ffa pvp is so great, why don't you play one of the many games that have come out with it? Its because the system sucks when you are not the very few that trash every one else.

If they go open world, ffa pvp, I won't be playing it. Period.

Boneserino · June 2013

Originally posted by Rhonen
For a truely Open Destructable World in which any player can attack any player at will, loot their cold dead corpse of all the items they had accumulated and still had on them and on top of that destroy / loot any and all buildings they may have built up over the last several days sound just peachy...

If you truely wish to play in a game such as the aforementioned one I think the following must also be considered or you will have people screaming and whining about certain game aspects:

1) There should only be ONE Class type of character allowed on a particular PvP server. It can be a Warrior, Rogue, Caster, Healer or what ever. If there is ONLY one class on the server then there will be no such thing as one class being more over powered than another.

2) The maximum level for the PvP server would be level 1. If levels were maxed out at 1 then there would be no rush to grind to max level in the least amount of time since you would already be max level soon as you spawnd your newly created character. Each player on the PvP server would be on equal footing from the start and each player would have exactly the same stats so again, everyone would be exactly the same.

3) All armor and weapons may have different cosmetic features but the armor would give no stats, protection or abilities and the weapons which may look different would only do 1 point of damage per hit.

4) There would be a truely amazing character creation tool which would make every character awsome to behold be it either male or female just so you could identify every other person on the server by sight and not by the names floating above their heads.

5) All male characters would have a minimum of 500 pounds of highly exotic looking armor and their weapons would be at least 3 times the height of their character. All female characters would be restricted to armor that had less material than one square of shere toilet paper (in the color of their choice) and again their weapons would be at least 3 times the height of their character.

6) The landscape would be low-rez so the player would not experience to much lag when thousands of awsome looking players hacked their fellow players into tiny bits.

7) There should be no banks and no auction houses. Since this is a full loot PvP server, items have no worth so there is no need to keep anything or sell anything. If a player wishes to store anything then they have to use player created chests which can only be placed in player created houses. Which of course, the houses can be destroyed anytime another player so desires.

8) Only one character per account per player to prevent creating mules for storage.

9) All player created content like houses would have a set amount of "Hit Points". Once enough damage was done the house or building would have a breach and at that time any player could go into the house and loot all the worthless stuff they desire. To restore the house / building it would take enough new materials as to replace all the damage done by the attackers.

10) All player created content like houses / buildings would require various raw materials which the player would have to forage and then refine into basic parts to create what ever it is they desired to create. While foraging materials the player would have to have equiped the proper tool to forage the particular items they desire. If the player has to much material on them then they could be easily encombered and walk slower then normal and of course become easy targets for other would be crafters who could just kill the player with the crafting items on them and strip them of all their hard work.

The list could go on and on and on....

I say let the PvP'ers have their servers and let them enjoy them. Personally I would not like to play in such a world.

Ratero.

Hmm I wonder why this post was summarily ignored by the posters here?

It bears rereading because this is exactly how Your PvP sandbox game will turn out to be.

Well done!!

Hrimnir · June 2013

Did a thread about open world pvp in a fucking EQ game actually make it to 17 pages? For fucks sake. If open world PVP makes it into EQ:Next ill slather my nuts in honey and teabag a bee hive.

SavageHorizon · June 2013

Originally posted by Hrimnir
Did a thread about open world pvp in a fucking EQ game actually make it to 17 pages? For fucks sake. If open world PVP makes it into EQ:Next ill slather my nuts in honey and teabag a bee hive.

I wouldn't worry, anyone who is foolish enough to think that Smed is going to turn the EQ experience into PVP love fest is delusional.

ShakyMo · June 2013

You don't know that. Smed is a huge eve fan. Planetside 2 is pure pvp and their most successful game since eq1 (currently has more weekly players than any aoe game ever, bit obviously it ain't been running as long)

Personally I think they will do some sort of geographical divide between pvp and pve. E.g. have pve provinces, then have wild lands where ffa pvp takes place and drop rates / xp are slightly higher.

Bidwood · June 2013

You disbelievers are in for a huge surprise. This game is going to be radically different and doesn't replace EQ1 or EQ2 sovthe dinosaurs who dont want something new can still cling to the familiar.

SavageHorizon · June 2013

Originally posted by ShakyMo
You don't know that. Smed is a huge eve fan. Planetside 2 is pure pvp and their most successful game since eq1 (currently has more weekly players than any aoe game ever, bit obviously it ain't been running as long)

Personally I think they will do some sort of geographical divide between pvp and pve. E.g. have pve provinces, then have wild lands where ffa pvp takes place and drop rates / xp are slightly higher.

Nah if anything he will separate the servers, Smed may be an EVE fan but that doesn't mean he is going to change the EQ experience into a EQN EVE experience lol.

I'll place any bet you like that PVP will take second place to PVE and RP.

Horusra · June 2013

Something truly different would be a mainstream PVE Sandbox.

SavageHorizon · June 2013

Originally posted by Bidwood
You disbelievers are in for a huge surprise. This game is going to be radically different and doesn't replace EQ1 or EQ2 sovthe dinosaurs who dont want something new can still cling to the familiar.

He has already said the game is going to be very familiar to EQ players, it's the way we interact with the world around us that is going to be different. He plans to give us plenty to do in between expansions plus kill the rinse and repeat cancer that has be part of mmo's since mmo's began.

He has also hinted at not being a big skill based system, again it's the actual world that is key to Smeds vision of EQN. All the rp elements of EQ are still their. They are chaging what AI means in mmo's and bring life to the world of Norrath.

The game will still have classes and all the things you would expect from an EQ game.

And we so called dinosaurs all all for new and keeping EQ familiar, so is Smed.

ice-vortex · June 2013

Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You don't know that. Smed is a huge eve fan. Planetside 2 is pure pvp and their most successful game since eq1 (currently has more weekly players than any aoe game ever, bit obviously it ain't been running as long)

Personally I think they will do some sort of geographical divide between pvp and pve. E.g. have pve provinces, then have wild lands where ffa pvp takes place and drop rates / xp are slightly higher.

Nah if anything he will separate the servers, Smed may be an EVE fan but that doesn't mean he is going to change the EQ experience into a EQN EVE experience lol.

I'll place any bet you like that PVP will take second place to PVE and RP.

If by when Smedley says EQNext will be the largest sandbox, he means the actual world then there may not be more than one server.

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